The Elder Mages online

Anastasia

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

Strakand wrote: »

The fact is this: NB is the strongest single target DPS class in the game, period. There are enough proven facts out there, it should be indisputable, but of course there are so many morons playing ESO that don't know how to play that these facts get brushed under the rug.

It is one thing to make grandiose claims about a class being the best at something and it being an "indisputable fact," and to label any that disagree with you as morons that should L2P. It is quite another to actually PROVIDE SAID DATA, which I can't help but notice, you did not.

I play a Veteran 5 NB and they feel pretty darn weak compared to my Sorcerer of the same level. Even single target, I am just not seeing the numbers.

Now, before you call me names and tell me to L2P, here is my Sorcerer solo'ing various elites and world bosses in the highest veteran level zone for my faction:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvvxDCNPzks

My NB couldn't pull this off if ZOS tied one tentacle behind the boss' back! Elites? Sure they are easy. World bosses? Not on a good day!

I think you are imagining a "perfect storm" where the NB gets the jump from stealth with Surprise Attack, maybe throwing down Viel of Blades if it is up. But realistically, there just aren't that many options, and Sorcerer weapon skills and attacks scale better than NB by a landslide (due to staff abilities like Impulse scaling off magic which is Sorcerer's primary stat they can freely max, while NB has to split between magic for class skills and stamina for weapon skills, unless they use staff).

Any weapon other than staff is a perfect example of getting spread too thin.

>>>Everything gets normalized and you end up not being the best at anything, except maybe sneak ganking noobs off their horse in Cyrodiil before their friends happily slaughter you.<<<

But in PVE, the damage and utility of NB feels pretty meh.

I mean look at Restraining Prison for the Sorcerer. An AOE root that increases crit rate by 15%? AND they get the single target mez that NB gets, but that gives them 15% crit as well while ours gives us what? A poof of crap damage when it ends?

(Now watch, instead of fixing NB they'll take the crit away from Dark Magic passives or something! Go go "balance by nerf!") XD

Maybe they would rather the 70+% that PVE suffer instead of the EXTREMELY vocal PVP minority, so they leave it imbalanced to avoid the QQ can of FOTM worms.

I just don't know anymore.

---

"Everything gets normalized and you end up not being the best at anything..."

Exactly. I see that a main part of the ZOS design centered around NOT having the trinity. I used to think also that ZOS did not originally want 'paper tiger' sorts of builds like rogues in some other mmo's are...but the paper tiger, almost all give it up-DPS is IN ESO...its the magicka builds.

Stam folks are reasonably useful utility/support characters who can be successful in PvP when getting our initial attack on...then....MEH, and especially in PvE, MEH. Make Stam builds, regardless of class on par with Magicka builds. I really do not give a damn about HOW its done. Its of no consequence to me HOW Zeni gets this taken care of. They are the professionals, right?

Irrespective of experience or knowledge amongst we players which is definitely there, the staff of ZOS needs to continue to address this, in a more timely manner if they are interested in keeping subs. Continuing down this line emphasizes how much MORE fun PvP is in this MMO. Glaringly obvious. (*Well, if you are one of the blessed who doesn't have the lag/jerking issues
At least, make it appear as if there is something relevant about the PvE customers.

Aside from giving us a way to vent and discuss the issue, it doesn't matter if its done via fiddling with this stat or adding a 'new' resource. I just want it done. Done right. Done with a clear, communicated timeline, with a plan in place for any consequences that occur in the doing of it and no more "We're working on it" or "Soon-ish". I have even been musing that perhaps the coming Champion point system perks will aid Stam builds, but who knows if just as much will boost Magicka blah blah blah of course

Why is this being so vehemently fought against by other players, really? The pendulum doesn't need to swing either way dramatically. But Stam builds certainly need MORE than the 'tad' of an adjustment in 1.3 (*)

Raash

Yeah its really a mage game. just jump in and look at dye picture thread... "this is my DK" etc most wearing prom dresses

Evandus

moxiesauce wrote: »

crislevin wrote: »

I'm not sure melee should do same amount of damage as abilities.

Abilities uses limited resources, weapon has no resource limit.

That's fine, being a melee you need give up positioning and safety in order to put out damage, Ranged has luxury on top of them being highest damage. Not to mention the horrible resource system that is stamina, it really does make sense for the swings alone to be viable.

In some cases I think that's true. Yet, I've discovered while levelling my DK pyro mage alt that they absolutely *have* to get into melee range to function.

Totally agree on the stamina woes, been right with that train since beta testing. however, bagging casters doesn't seem right to me. Casting of different classes/flavors can vary dramatically. Same with melee really when you take into account bows.

Holycannoli

Probitas wrote: »

Where the heck does it make logical sense to assign a restoration staff a boost to DAMAGE??? Isn't that why they have the ability to use the other DAMAGE dealing staves?

That's probably my most hated ability in this game. It's like they gave it to resto staff because they were afraid people wouldn't use the staff otherwise.

The game needs a major balance patch, but before that we have to deal with spellcrafting making magicka builds even more powerful and desirable.

Sumpfheini

has to be the most imbalanced MMO in history (and I played quite a lot). Even Warhammer Online had better balance and that game was *** up. Stamina build? GTFO, High armor values? doesn't matter we have no Idea how to calculate percentages. Heavy 2h Attacks in your face with max. Weapon Damage? 200! There you go. Absorbs? hahaha

Thechemicals

Do any class skills cost stamina? End of discussion.

Aeratus

jamie.goddenrwb17_ESO wrote: »

What frustrates me no end is this:



Is completely unviable in end game.

A heavy armor wrecking machine. I am hoping that when ZOS are done with their balancing they do consider a way to allow melee characters to do so in heavy armor

You should've looked at the trailers more closely.

"Arrival" trailer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-UIdhxSu3M

As shown, the mage nearly solos the dolmen all by herself. She has insane dps, and good crowd control with the negate magic ultimate. Brst dps is so high she takes down the dolmen chain with a ranged attack.

Meanwhile, our heavy armor hero is just roll dodging around, unable to do any damage. The medium armor hero is unable to deal with a dolmen boss due also due to low dps and low magic resist.

So I think it was marketed that mages are more powerful than warriors and rogues. There was no false advertising here.

khele23eb17_ESO

Aeratus wrote: »

So I think it was marketed that mages are more powerful than warriors and rogues. There was no false advertising here.

And there will be less and less money for them if they keep it up :P

Nestor

moxiesauce wrote: »

I'm basically saying, take this crappy 200 light attack with a greatsword, and make it 400 and scale better with weapon damage, a warrior criting 700+ with a light attack would make up for the crappy resource management.

This would resolve it. Right now, the only reason to swing a melee weapon is to hold the enemy off until Mana is recharged, or to some extent Stamina, and Stamina is only to do something until the Mana is recharged and we can get in some damage.

Kl3mzyy

I am using bow/resto, 2h/resto or bow/2h with 7 medium in pvp. I am 2-3 hitting people if i am stealthed with bow and 2h, also droping solid dmg with 2h 600 per light hit (it's a crit) out of stealth so i don't see how are magicka builds OP in PvP. Ye i know you can come across someone doing 800-1k dmg per hit with funnel health, but these people most of the time do not roll with immovable and you are able to lock them down and kill them in few hits.
I have no clue about how my build works in guild vs guild fight, i try to avoid them, because they are boring, but it would probably suck.

For PvE the only reason why sta builds are not viable for trials it's because they don't have something like spell symmetry (evil hunter is proc) and spells are too expensive(2h) or too week(bow).
Still you are able to get up to 1k with mixed sta/magicka build, but you will have to drink a lot of pots to keep stamina up.

Vraneon

I think that magicka builds aren't op. As I see it those high dps stamina builds are mainly for 1vs1 while magicka builds have a lot higher aoe dps. This seems to be a big issue for a lot of players. In pvp I die to Stamina builds and Magicka builds absolutely the same. Maybe they could adjust a bit the aoe damage for stamina builds. I can see that it is really problematic for trials or other group dungeons where lot of aoe damage is needed, that stamina builds/and maybe nightblades don't offer a lot. But I also think this game is far away from Elder Mages Online.

The thing is stamina builds use mostly weapon critical and weapon damage which doesn't require any resource, while a mage has poor stats on that. If a mage runs out of magicka he is doing poor damage compared to a stamina build. My idea would be to add some sort of Stamina AoE or change the weapon abilities a bit so that stamina builds have the option to use their stamina for aoe damage output.

Dramatic exaggerations wont help the devs to make the gameplay more balanced for each class.

moxiesauce

Vraneon wrote: »

I think that magicka builds aren't op. As I see it those high dps stamina builds are mainly for 1vs1 while magicka builds have a lot higher aoe dps. This seems to be a big issue for a lot of players. In pvp I die to Stamina builds and Magicka builds absolutely the same. Maybe they could adjust a bit the aoe damage for stamina builds. I can see that it is really problematic for trials or other group dungeons where lot of aoe damage is needed, that stamina builds/and maybe nightblades don't offer a lot. But I also think this game is far away from Elder Mages Online.

The thing is stamina builds use mostly weapon critical and weapon damage which doesn't require any resource, while a mage has poor stats on that. If a mage runs out of magicka he is doing poor damage compared to a stamina build. My idea would be to add some sort of Stamina AoE or change the weapon abilities a bit so that stamina builds have the option to use their stamina for aoe damage output.

Dramatic exaggerations wont help the devs to make the gameplay more balanced for each class.

It's not even about classes it's about weapon's, 2 handers and DW are weak, straight up. They have useless abilities and their swings/abilities just don't hit hard enough to make up for the lack of sustain which mages have no issues with via spell symmetry. On top of this neither DW or 2handers have abilities or passives that can compare with staff. I can speak much more for 2 hander than DW, but uppercut having a cast and a knock back is terrible, there should be a morph to removed the knock back and cast, and arcane fighter should be taken out of the tree entirely. It forces me to think I need to have an enchant like fire DMG on my weapon because it has a 100% chance to proc burning, which I'm not sure that works like that, or that it's even worth it. A passive to help by pass blocks would be better. Also they should make momentum more group helpful, like elemental drain from the d-staff tree. As of now stamina builds bring nothing to the table outside of poor dps.

khele23eb17_ESO

Vraneon wrote: »

I think that magicka builds aren't op. As I see it those high dps stamina builds are mainly for 1vs1 while magicka builds have a lot higher aoe dps.

Those 'high dps' stamina builds dont come close to high dps magicka builds in terms of single target damage. And then on top of that magicka ones have better aoe.

This seems to be a big issue for a lot of players. In pvp I die to Stamina builds and Magicka builds absolutely the same. Maybe they could adjust a bit the aoe damage for stamina builds. I can see that it is really problematic for trials or other group dungeons where lot of aoe damage is needed, that stamina builds/and maybe nightblades don't offer a lot. But I also think this game is far away from Elder Mages Online.

I beg to differ.

If a mage runs out of magicka he is doing poor damage compared to a stamina build.

Thats the thing. He doesnt.

Kypho

Strakand wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

Strakand wrote: »

One of my guild leaders plays a NB with DW and Resto and 7 medium. He is stacked up on weapon crit with the latest patch and wrecks face.

And, he uses a Stick....

And, dual wield. He also uses a bow intermittently. The point being the NB is very strong if you understand how to use the abilities to your advantage. The fact is this: NB is the strongest single target DPS class in the game, period. There are enough proven facts out there, it should be indisputable, but of course there are so many morons playing ESO that don't know how to play that these facts get brushed under the rug.

And you are DK right?

Pmarsico9

At least you aren't a Templar. If your group is well geared and stacked you might be able to bring a pure templar healer and rank on trials.

But unfortunately there's nothing viable for a Templar if everybody has to use a resto staff for the flat multipliers it provides.

They will eventually fix something to make medium/heavy melee and bow builds competitive. Or tweak the "end game" so it's not completely shattered by stacking OP'd DPS builds.

Galrukh

Unfortunately Light Armor is way overpowered compared to the other 2 armor types and magicka is still ahead of stamina builds, nothing will change until Light Armor gets a massive overhaul.

This really is Elder Mages online at this point, Heavy Armor did get a decent boost this patch but it is still pretty much worthless compared to Light Armor+stick.
ZoS: Don't automatically make magic the best all the time every time.

Galrukh

Kl3mzyy wrote: »

I am using bow/resto, 2h/resto or bow/2h with 7 medium in pvp. I am 2-3 hitting people if i am stealthed with bow and 2h, also droping solid dmg with 2h 600 per light hit (it's a crit) out of stealth so i don't see how are magicka builds OP in PvP. Ye i know you can come across someone doing 800-1k dmg per hit with funnel health, but these people most of the time do not roll with immovable and you are able to lock them down and kill them in few hits.
I have no clue about how my build works in guild vs guild fight, i try to avoid them, because they are boring, but it would probably suck.

For PvE the only reason why sta builds are not viable for trials it's because they don't have something like spell symmetry (evil hunter is proc) and spells are too expensive(2h) or too week(bow).
Still you are able to get up to 1k with mixed sta/magicka build, but you will have to drink a lot of pots to keep stamina up.

I would love to face the people that you hit for 600 with light attack crits because I do nowhere near that amount with well overcapped weapon damage and high stamina, nowhere near 600.

Thechemicals

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

At least you aren't a Templar. If your group is well geared and stacked you might be able to bring a pure templar healer and rank on trials.

But unfortunately there's nothing viable for a Templar if everybody has to use a resto staff for the flat multipliers it provides.

They will eventually fix something to make medium/heavy melee and bow builds competitive. Or tweak the "end game" so it's not completely shattered by stacking OP'd DPS builds.

this is untrue.

Faulgor

moxiesauce wrote: »

Soothy wrote: »

crislevin wrote: »

I'm not sure melee should do same amount of damage as abilities.

Abilities uses limited resources, weapon has no resource limit.

I think he is referring to melee including stamina based abilities, seeing as most stamina based abilities require you to be in a melee. Stamina is a limited resource ergo melee is limited by resources.

I'm basically saying, take this crappy 200 light attack with a greatsword, and make it 400 and scale better with weapon damage, a warrior criting 700+ with a light attack would make up for the crappy resource management.

Just want to throw my hat in the ring for this "solution" as well.
People keep asking for a 4th resource bar, but with this change, that would be completely unnecessary. Besides magicka and stamina, there is already another source of damage in the game, and those are white attacks (light and heavy). If they were boosted for stamina-weapons (scaling with stamina), stamina-based skills would be primarily used for utility and not damage, just like the resource itself, whereas mages would use spells and thus magicka for their primary damage.
Makes a lot of sense to me. Only problem I see is the lack of AoE damage.

CapuchinSeven

moxiesauce wrote: »

Soothy wrote: »

crislevin wrote: »

I'm not sure melee should do same amount of damage as abilities.

Abilities uses limited resources, weapon has no resource limit.

I think he is referring to melee including stamina based abilities, seeing as most stamina based abilities require you to be in a melee. Stamina is a limited resource ergo melee is limited by resources.

I'm basically saying, take this crappy 200 light attack with a greatsword, and make it 400 and scale better with weapon damage, a warrior criting 700+ with a light attack would make up for the crappy resource management.

This is pretty true. You could leave stamina skills where they were if they buffed light and heavy attacks some.

contact.opiumb16_ESO

woodsro wrote: »

I think people focus on dps way too much. If every class could dps the same there would be no point in having classes.

dragonknight is a tank class
tempkar is a healing class
sorc is a damage class
nightblade is a stealth class

that's how zenimax intended the game to be designed. Sure templar can tank, but there not as good at it as the dk. Sorcs can heal, but not as good as the templar.

this is both good and bad, good that each class is the best in its envisioned role, and bad because the "play as you want to" is not as flexible as many thought.

just my 2 cents

Indeed it's a 2 cents argument because we see now :
. Dk as LA and staff
. sorcerers same
. Templar same
. Even nb wear la and staff

Why? Because in eso, your role is determined by your stuff, la for magic dps/heal, medium for physical dps, heavy for survability.

The problem is this, the balance between armors and weapons. Zos should first raise the armor cap AND at the same time unlock the possibility to use armor abilities only IF you wear at least 5 pieces of the armor type. Nerf a bit the la armor, medium is good as it is, heavy is pretty useless except for the inamovible, but everyone can use it, and it's more efficient on a la build. Then we can discuss on weapons balancing. Just do some math, calculate the ressource used / result, the weapons are way behind the magical abilities while your stamina is used to run, dodge, roll, attack, while your magica is just for spells ... Since the beta! They know it since at least 5 months AND they do nothing to change it, so yeah, that's the elder magica online, or the Harry Potter online if you like.

NakedSnake

Im just wondering, does anyone actually play solely stamina based in TES games. Is it me or have TES games always centered around magicka?

khele23eb17_ESO

Faulgor wrote: »

moxiesauce wrote: »

Soothy wrote: »

crislevin wrote: »

I'm not sure melee should do same amount of damage as abilities.

Abilities uses limited resources, weapon has no resource limit.

I think he is referring to melee including stamina based abilities, seeing as most stamina based abilities require you to be in a melee. Stamina is a limited resource ergo melee is limited by resources.

I'm basically saying, take this crappy 200 light attack with a greatsword, and make it 400 and scale better with weapon damage, a warrior criting 700+ with a light attack would make up for the crappy resource management.

Just want to throw my hat in the ring for this "solution" as well.
People keep asking for a 4th resource bar, but with this change, that would be completely unnecessary. Besides magicka and stamina, there is already another source of damage in the game, and those are white attacks (light and heavy). If they were boosted for stamina-weapons (scaling with stamina), stamina-based skills would be primarily used for utility and not damage, just like the resource itself, whereas mages would use spells and thus magicka for their primary damage.
Makes a lot of sense to me. Only problem I see is the lack of AoE damage.

The problem I see is that a lot of weapon skills arent really utility oriented. That would make them useless.

Cydone

Strakand wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

Strakand wrote: »

One of my guild leaders plays a NB with DW and Resto and 7 medium. He is stacked up on weapon crit with the latest patch and wrecks face.

And, he uses a Stick....

And, dual wield. He also uses a bow intermittently. The point being the NB is very strong if you understand how to use the abilities to your advantage. The fact is this: NB is the strongest single target DPS class in the game, period. There are enough proven facts out there, it should be indisputable, but of course there are so many morons playing ESO that don't know how to play that these facts get brushed under the rug.

Yes, NB is the strongest single target DPS class in the game......but how often are you running into 1v1's in pve OR pvp? They are very few and far in between. AOE's win fights, both in PvE and PvP. And NB only has 1 AOE ability really in Lotus fan which takes magicka and does crap AOE damage and then Veil of Blades....which is AWESOME. But it's an Ultimate. Whirlwind is a decent AOE when you morph it to give back stamina......but the point is you have to do SO much more to make stamina builds viable and the same isn't required of magicka builds. There is a HUGE balance gap between Restro/Destro Magicka users and 2h/DW/Bow Stamina users. The ESO development even said this is true at QuakeCon.

Galrukh

NakedSnake wrote: »

Im just wondering, does anyone actually play solely stamina based in TES games. Is it me or have TES games always centered around magicka?

I have played both oblivion and skyrim with 95% stamina based builds, using magicka only for heals between fights. None of the other games have been so focused on magicka as this game is, at least that has been my experience.

contact.opiumb16_ESO

Galrukh wrote: »

NakedSnake wrote: »

Im just wondering, does anyone actually play solely stamina based in TES games. Is it me or have TES games always centered around magicka?

I have played both oblivion and skyrim with 95% stamina based builds, using magicka only for heals between fights. None of the other games have been so focused on magicka as this game is, at least that has been my experience.

In Morrowind, Skyrim and Oblivion, with more than 400h play on each, i did pure mage, pure weapons and a lot of hybrid builds, they all worked fine.

In TESO i tried pure mage, it works perfectly, hybrid builds are not so bad but not as good as pure mages, and pure stamina based are just [SNIP] up and broken.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

NakedSnake

Galrukh wrote: »

NakedSnake wrote: »

Im just wondering, does anyone actually play solely stamina based in TES games. Is it me or have TES games always centered around magicka?

I have played both oblivion and skyrim with 95% stamina based builds, using magicka only for heals between fights. None of the other games have been so focused on magicka as this game is, at least that has been my experience.

So no nighteyes, absorb, cure, feather, drain? I find that hard to believe.

Galrukh

NakedSnake wrote: »

Galrukh wrote: »

NakedSnake wrote: »

Im just wondering, does anyone actually play solely stamina based in TES games. Is it me or have TES games always centered around magicka?

I have played both oblivion and skyrim with 95% stamina based builds, using magicka only for heals between fights. None of the other games have been so focused on magicka as this game is, at least that has been my experience.

So no nighteyes, absorb, cure, feather, drain? I find that hard to believe.

Nighteye is nice but can be gotten many ways, cure is good but you can make that just fine with alchemy, feather is nice but not something you MUST have, absorb I never exploited because the game broke easily if you did that (meaning it got stupidly easy) and I never really bothered with drain spells.
Believe it or not.
I have ofcourse played pure mages as well but pure warriors can be just fine.

Xsorus

moxiesauce wrote: »

NookyZooky wrote: »

i want to say something about the 2h skill line, since we are talking about stamina weapons

this skill line needs a block breaker!!! half of this skill line has awful abilities. how about putting a block breaker in it somewhere?? increase the damage two handed weapons do, and put a block breaker in it. im tired of having this giant sword, only for it to be blocked the entire battle:(

good idea, Should make it a passive, arcane fighter is 100% useless and a waste of skill points, they could have a passive that bypasses up 50% of a block, put a 5 second CD on it.

*make it real nice and have it also give some minor armor pen.*

Umm arcane fighter is actually what makes 2 handed weapon incredibly good for pvp

moxiesauce

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

moxiesauce wrote: »

NookyZooky wrote: »

i want to say something about the 2h skill line, since we are talking about stamina weapons

this skill line needs a block breaker!!! half of this skill line has awful abilities. how about putting a block breaker in it somewhere?? increase the damage two handed weapons do, and put a block breaker in it. im tired of having this giant sword, only for it to be blocked the entire battle:(

good idea, Should make it a passive, arcane fighter is 100% useless and a waste of skill points, they could have a passive that bypasses up 50% of a block, put a 5 second CD on it.

*make it real nice and have it also give some minor armor pen.*

Umm arcane fighter is actually what makes 2 handed weapon incredibly good for pvp

right cause a 130 point DoT is what wins fights?