Oil Pots should damage the user if he is in the AOE.

Halrloprillalar

Do you even know what a red herring is?
I think some formal logic training is in order

At least you can start by teasing apart your own argument, the crux of which breaks here:

Ralathar44 wrote: »

Oil traps will be one of the many things affected by this.

This is your argument:

1) DKs have more tools.

2) DKs happen to survive all things better than others if they build tanky, because of 1).


Fine, we agree on this.
Next:


3) Oil is a thing


What does part 3 have to do with parts 1-2?
You could replace 'oil' with literally anything - for example caltrops, firepot ballista, NPCs or bat swarm and nothing else in the argument would change. So using oil in this case is YOU chasing a red herring.

Just suffice it to say that you want DKs brought in line with other classes and leave it at that. The devs have already said they're looking at it.

Oil pouring on feet is a separate issue which supposedly started this thread. If you think it's broken, report it with /bug, don't start a DK thread instead.

Btw if you think I'm "defending" DKs you literally have no clue.

ThyIronFist

Oil pots are fine.

Learn to counter them. Purge, maneuver, negate, etc. Hell, I have even used my Extended Chains ability to pull people from their oil pots.

And it always makes me laugh to see baddies run inside a resource tower over and over again, with like 5 oil pots inside of it. It is a good way to get AP.

Please do not nerf oil pots just because scrubs keep dying to them and don't know how to counter them.

Also if you are massively outnumbered, the only way to defend a keep from a zerg is to set up oil pots at choke points, corners, etc. If they nerf oil pots the game will become even more of a zergfest.

Tintinabula

when I die to an oil pot I think" F*** I'm dumb"

Eivar

Tintinabula wrote: »

when I die to an oil pot I think" F*** I'm dumb"

I frequently think the same thing when I die to an oil pot, though I have to agree that the whole drop pot in melee and pour it uphill thing is a bit dumb.

Eivar

Ralathar44 wrote: »

Eivar wrote: »

A simple fix for the resource problem would be to have the flag inside the tower just like a keep, but smaller.

While on the surface that's not a terrible idea this would greatly slow down keep takes and require enormous amount of resources for repairs, or result in razed towers that rarely get unrazed.

Granted it would slow down keep taking, but who says that's a bad thing? it would give the resources more meaning than just how tough the guards are, they would actually be strategic points of contention. There would be good reason to take them in both offensive and defensive terms, take the resource, have a group hold it while a main force works on taking the keep, or burn them to the ground so that the stragglers you run out of a keep can't hole up inside and stage a counter attack to retake the keep, etc etc. It would potentially add a new dynamic to the siege warfare. Just think how fun a keep siege would be when a keep fills up with reinforcements as another faction takes the resources and stages sieges from there.

Ralathar44

Halrloprillalar wrote: »

This is your argument:

1) DKs have more tools.

Yes.

2) DKs happen to survive all things better than others if they build tanky, because of 1).

They are not just more survivable built tanky, they are more survivable built as DPS as well. They don't just have more tools. They also have better tools when it comes to survivability.

3) Oil is a thing


What does part 3 have to do with parts 1-2?
You could replace 'oil' with literally anything - for example caltrops, firepot ballista, NPCs or bat swarm and nothing else in the argument would change. So using oil in this case is YOU chasing a red herring.

Incorrect, your judgement on the power of oil is based on the current status quo in which the majority of people in PVP are playing Dragon Knights. Dragon Knights are more survivable regardless of role than other classes in comparable roles.

Thus when the Dragon Knight nerfs come through Oil traps are only going to be more deadly.

This is not a nerf DK thread, that's not needed, they are going to be nerfed. What I am saying is your current evaluation of how effective Oil Traps are is based off of the inflated survivability and high number of Dragon Knights.

Dragon Knights not only out-survive all other classes when it comes to this situation normally, but just a handful of Dragon Knights using Molten Armor will make as much or more of a difference as all the support skills you are mentioning. It limits damage to a set steady threshold, does aoe damage, grants synergy shields, and provides a HUGE all-heal on use.


With such enormous variables present such as Molten Armor and overall Dragon Knight survivability I'm saying that the current landscape is too messed up for you to say that there is currently proper counters.

Ralathar44

There is a way that you could prove your point if you have a willing guild though. Make a video and link it. Show that you have no Dragon Knights and break an oil farm. For bonus points show that you are all Night Blades and break an oil farm.

There are plenty of videos of people trolling in open fields with oil pots, camping resource towers, getting like 20 kills with a single pour, etc. That video proof is there.

Show me a video of people easily beating it without DK's to do a control test. If it's as easy as you paint it you shouldn't even need overwhelming numbers and it should be rather easy for you to do this.

Tintinabula

I recently killed a former emp in the middle of the woods..Rather than fight me back while i was dpsn him..he proceeded to set up an oil pot behind a tree as I killed him.

Boy that former Emp was dumb."Look at my pretty oil pot!! stab stab talons"

Eivar

Tintinabula wrote: »

I recently killed a former emp in the middle of the woods..Rather than fight me back while i was dpsn him..he proceeded to set up an oil pot behind a tree as I killed him.

Boy that former Emp was dumb."Look at my pretty oil pot!! stab stab talons"

Must have been a former celarus emp XD.

Halrloprillalar

Ralathar44 wrote: »

There is a way that you could prove your point if you have a willing guild though. Make a video and link it. Show that you have no Dragon Knights and break an oil farm. For bonus points show that you are all Night Blades and break an oil farm.

There are plenty of videos of people trolling in open fields with oil pots, camping resource towers, getting like 20 kills with a single pour, etc. That video proof is there.

Show me a video of people easily beating it without DK's to do a control test. If it's as easy as you paint it you shouldn't even need overwhelming numbers and it should be rather easy for you to do this.

Logic for the oil-DK connection is still lacking, but if it will help you understand, maybe I'll look into it.

Ralathar44

Halrloprillalar wrote: »

Logic for the oil-DK connection is still lacking, but if it will help you understand, maybe I'll look into it.

Either you learn of a problem you didn't know existed or you prove me wrong haha . Win-Win.

If you agree with nothing else you have to admit that Molten Armor is pretty much a perfect oil counter though.

SBR_QuorTek

Full friendly fire ALL skills/items.... and if you accidently kill a team mate you will get points deducted with the same amount as it grant for killing an enemy.

But I am not sure the people can handle it... especially the discipline using AOE during this..... anyhow it would solve alot of problems making it more big force v big force and longer battles making one feel like having survirved long enough to kick the bucket now and then or something.

Nijjion

Worst idea ever... imagine people just killing their own alliance just to be a ***?

People troll enough if games have team collision... imagine what they would do with friendly fire.

zazamalek

Dleatherus wrote: »

[...]

D.

I can't disagree with this. I went through the same thought process.

To be completely honest I've been forced to be more thoughtful about where I place oil. People are learning to target the oil users first. I've generally stopped using oil-on-floor because it usually gets me killed (even with LOS-breaking placement). It's only really viable if you are facing mindless zerglings.

Yasha

Halrloprillalar wrote: »

Ralathar44 wrote: »

Halrloprillalar wrote: »

Group make up and oil don't have much to do with each other. I have no idea why you think they do. And btw 'concise' means not long winded.

The fact that you think siege effectiveness on a group and group makeup have nothing whatsoever to do with each other shows how little credibility you have in this conversation.

But to give an extreme example:

Is an all Dragon Knight group significantly more likely to survive the resource tower oil trap than an all Night Blade group?

Think about that.

Any group can survive an oil trap if they are coordinating purges, heals, ults and aoe over voice. ANY GROUP.

This is just not true.

It is extremely difficult for even a well coordinated group with higher numbers and optimal classes/abilities to take a coordinated oil trap in some locations.

For most groups, even whole armies, its just impossible. And it is ludicrous that a whole army cannot get a smallish group out of a tower or bridge fortification just because this oil cheese is allowed.

The oil trap groups are not holding off armies due to skill- they are just taking advantage of a very cheesy mechanic in the game that lowers the appeal and quality of the pvp in this game.
-
Like the DK/vampire build that was able to single handedly defeat whole zergs it is one of those things in the game that while no doubt fun for those doing it, is obviously detrimental to the game's pvp and should be addressed.

TRIP233

Ralathar44 wrote: »

This is a simple fix to the ground oil pots thing. You use the oil pot and are in the AOE, it hits you as well. No worries of griefing because it doesn't hit anyone, just keeps people from using some of the lamer oil spam.

Pour somewhere else = good.
Pour at your own feet = you die too.

Lol, this is the dummest thing I've read on the Forums. You can't get hurt from friendly fire, nor can you be hurt from your own AoE attacks, so how will you get hurt from your own Oil Pots?

Forztr

Ralathar44 wrote: »

What more do you really want? You get very strong guards, superior siege positioning, 3 resource camps that they need to take at least 1-2 of, and oil pots.

Defenders already have a significant advantage and attackers cannot starve defenders or sap the walls either. Typically if you lose a siege the enemy is either playing much better or has alot more people.

Superior seige postioning? This is a joke right. Some of the keeps are built in stupid places that benefit the attacker. Real castles are built at the top of hills not at the bottom.

Once inside the outer wall the attacker can set up a siege on side door that can only be targeted by very few defender siege.

Only two ways to stop a siege is to have the numbers to engage outside usually by flanking the attackers or oil pots inside inner keep.

If anything keeps are too hard to defend.

Lowbei

TRIP233 wrote: »

Ralathar44 wrote: »

This is a simple fix to the ground oil pots thing. You use the oil pot and are in the AOE, it hits you as well. No worries of griefing because it doesn't hit anyone, just keeps people from using some of the lamer oil spam.

Pour somewhere else = good.
Pour at your own feet = you die too.

Lol, this is the dummest thing I've read on the Forums. You can't get hurt from friendly fire, nor can you be hurt from your own AoE attacks, so how will you get hurt from your own Oil Pots?

"yeah, the bad guys attacked me so i poured boiling oil on myself to kill them all."

sounds legit bro

Halrloprillalar

Ralathar44 wrote: »

Halrloprillalar wrote: »

Logic for the oil-DK connection is still lacking, but if it will help you understand, maybe I'll look into it.

Either you learn of a problem you didn't know existed or you prove me wrong haha . Win-Win.

If you agree with nothing else you have to admit that Molten Armor is pretty much a perfect oil counter though.

It doesn't save your group in any way, so no, it's not.

Halrloprillalar

Yasha wrote: »

This is just not true.

It is extremely difficult for even a well coordinated group with higher numbers and optimal classes/abilities to take a coordinated oil trap in some locations.

No.

Ralathar44

Duplicate post.

Ralathar44

Halrloprillalar wrote: »

it that Molten Armor is pretty much a perfect oil counter though.

It doesn't save your group in any way, so no, it's not.

Did you really just say that? WOW, some people still don't know alot about this game it seems. The Magma Shell morph is an extremely potent team ability and provides the strongest damage shield in the game to all allies who use the synergy.

How people can argue based on such ignorance is beyond me.


P.S. As a side note the other morph, Corrosive Shell, would still significantly lower the damage of all affected enemies against your allies. Also either morph or even the base ability would allow you to survive long enough to do things like fiery grip the people pouring oil, allowing further allies to enter taking less damage.

Thor

Oil should not affect anyone on the same level it is built on.
It should be poured down on someone, this how it is intended to be used.

In fact worst offenders (sitting in small rooms behind crates, so they can't be effectively attacked, killing people through walls/crates without warning) should be banned.

Lowbei

lol did he say banned?

lol

Ralathar44

Lowbei wrote: »

lol did he say banned?

lol

I think he did lol. I don't really agree with that unless it's an actual exploit. This is too easy to do to be an exploit. Though to play devil's advocate they already made some changes to prevent AOE's from hitting people out of line of sight once so it's highly possible that this is unintended. I still wouldn't ban for it though.

Halrloprillalar

Ralathar44 wrote: »

Halrloprillalar wrote: »

it that Molten Armor is pretty much a perfect oil counter though.

It doesn't save your group in any way, so no, it's not.

Did you really just say that? WOW, some people still don't know alot about this game it seems. The Magma Shell morph is an extremely potent team ability and provides the strongest damage shield in the game to all allies who use the synergy.

How people can argue based on such ignorance is beyond me.


P.S. As a side note the other morph, Corrosive Shell, would still significantly lower the damage of all affected enemies against your allies. Also either morph or even the base ability would allow you to survive long enough to do things like fiery grip the people pouring oil, allowing further allies to enter taking less damage.

You mean it's like bone shield, but an ult? lol

Corrosive shield only affects weapon damage IIRC.
Banner reduces all damage taken by allies while increasing their damage output - it really is a no-brainer.

Ralathar44

Halrloprillalar wrote: »

You mean it's like bone shield, but an ult? lol

Bone shield only provides armor, provides no protection vs spells, and does not have an aoe component.

Corrosive shield only affects weapon damage IIRC.
Banner reduces all damage taken by allies while increasing their damage output - it really is a no-brainer.

You are absolutely right on both cases based on my knowledge. Though it should be noted that every weapon AND it's abilities are highly affected by weapon damage. This means both resto staff heals and destruction staff (impulse of course) would be affected by this.

Both of these abilities have a pretty good chance of receiving further nerfs, the nerfs they already received were hotfix nerfs to help slow down some of the insane DK soloing and speed runs of trails, but were likely not intended as the final step.

Both abilities are super powerful even in their nerfed state.

However your statement was:

Halrloprillalar wrote: »

Ralathar44 wrote: »

Halrloprillalar wrote: »

Logic for the oil-DK connection is still lacking, but if it will help you understand, maybe I'll look into it.

Either you learn of a problem you didn't know existed or you prove me wrong haha . Win-Win.

If you agree with nothing else you have to admit that Molten Armor is pretty much a perfect oil counter though.

It doesn't save your group in any way, so no, it's not.

Which, like was pointed out, is blatantly untrue in both of it's morphs. As well in this select situation an 85% damage shield is much more effective against oil pots than a 20% damage reduction because it's better against burst.

Yasha

Halrloprillalar wrote: »

Yasha wrote: »

This is just not true.

It is extremely difficult for even a well coordinated group with higher numbers and optimal classes/abilities to take a coordinated oil trap in some locations.

No.

Yes

Halrloprillalar

Ralathar44 wrote: »

Halrloprillalar wrote: »

You mean it's like bone shield, but an ult? lol

Bone shield only provides armor, provides no protection vs spells, and does not have an aoe component.

Corrosive shield only affects weapon damage IIRC.
Banner reduces all damage taken by allies while increasing their damage output - it really is a no-brainer.

You are absolutely right on both cases based on my knowledge. Though it should be noted that every weapon AND it's abilities are highly affected by weapon damage. This means both resto staff heals and destruction staff (impulse of course) would be affected by this.

Both of these abilities have a pretty good chance of receiving further nerfs, the nerfs they already received were hotfix nerfs to help slow down some of the insane DK soloing and speed runs of trails, but were likely not intended as the final step.

Both abilities are super powerful even in their nerfed state.

However your statement was:

Halrloprillalar wrote: »

Ralathar44 wrote: »

Halrloprillalar wrote: »

Logic for the oil-DK connection is still lacking, but if it will help you understand, maybe I'll look into it.

Either you learn of a problem you didn't know existed or you prove me wrong haha . Win-Win.

If you agree with nothing else you have to admit that Molten Armor is pretty much a perfect oil counter though.

It doesn't save your group in any way, so no, it's not.

Which, like was pointed out, is blatantly untrue in both of it's morphs. As well in this select situation an 85% damage shield is much more effective against oil pots than a 20% damage reduction because it's better against burst.

I don't think you actually have ever used bone shield. Check it out, it's extremely strong, especially the surge morph. The bubble is 60%, not 85% true, and it doesn't have its own aoe, but it's also not an ult. Magma shell does not provide any group armor or spell resist buffs either, all 'shield' spells in the game are just health shields.

I have honestly never really tested corrosive shield so I can't speak of its effectiveness. I don't use a destro staff in pvp so it has little effect on me personally. I simply prefer our DKs to use banner so we can wipe the oil parties faster and move on.

Oil is 'countered' by removing its effect via purify or purge, shields are nice to create a buffer of time in which you need to get upstairs instead of trying to sit in the oil. Once you reach a point where oil isn't being poured on top of your head, you kill everything that moves and clean your way top-down.

Ralathar44

Halrloprillalar wrote: »

I don't think you actually have ever used bone shield. Check it out, it's extremely strong, especially the surge morph. The bubble is 60%, not 85% true, and it doesn't have its own aoe, but it's also not an ult.

Oh I don't disagree at all. In this particular situation it's just not as effective as the ultimate. The fact that it is that strong is also somewhat worrisome, because I would not be surprised if Molten Armor received additional nerfs. So, expensive as it is, that puts bone shield up in this worrisome grey area of potentially receiving nerfs at some point too. (Though I wouldn't think it would be in the next major patch, both it and volcanic rune are likely safe for another month or so)

Magma shell does not provide any group armor or spell resist buffs either, all 'shield' spells in the game are just health shields.

Correct, all shield spells in this game are just ablative health essentially and they do not receive the benefits of mitigation. However they are still worthwhile and especially potent when countering burst.

Magma Shell has the advantage of providing far superior personal protection compared to bone shield, while dealing AOE damage (which helps alot of builds tank outside of PVP), and still giving the extremely large group protective shields

I have honestly never really tested corrosive shield so I can't speak of its effectiveness. I don't use a destro staff in pvp so it has little effect on me personally. I simply prefer our DKs to use banner so we can wipe the oil parties faster and move on.

Corrosive Armor seems like it would be something you'd use in tandem with people using Magma Shell and/or Standard of Might because they would stack even when overlapped. But I don't consider it as powerful as the other two option.

Oil is 'countered' by removing its effect via purify or purge, shields are nice to create a buffer of time in which you need to get upstairs instead of trying to sit in the oil. Once you reach a point where oil isn't being poured on top of your head, you kill everything that moves and clean your way top-down.

I'd still love to see a video of people countering a roughly equivalently sized oil party without DK's. Especially after you directly mentioned the banner bombs that are so common in PVP these days.