Oil Pots should damage the user if he is in the AOE.

bugulu

Being able to pour oil on the ground when you are standing in the very same aoe is very poor mechanics.

Height mechanics or specific spots where you can deploy the oil cauldrons are viable options.

Infraction

No sympathy for getting farmed at a resource tower. If you aren't smart enough to scout it before taking it then you deserve to get farmed.

Too many times I've seen people run in a tower as it's being sieges only to watch the other side just take the resource.

Limitless

ESO Forums, naive as always.

Why not just let resources towers be destroyed by the faction who owns it?

CoolsHisHands

I think the simplest, and most realistic solution is to allow you to place oil pots everywhere, but the size of the AoE is dependent on how high above the target it is. Pour it from the ramparts of a keep onto the ground below: AoE is normal size. Pour it on the ground in front of you: AoE is maybe 3-4 feet in diameter.

smercgames_ESO

You can kill the towers at the resource locations!? I bet you most people don't even know that if it's possible. Personally I think all structures should be destroyable. I've seen the oil traps done in barns which is silly. I can blow down a keep wall but not a wooden building?

Bloodvax

Most of the people asking for a nerf to oil pots are the people in zerg guilds that ball up and spam impulse while stampeding up the stairs. Then they say how good they are at "organized pvp". People are using one cheesemode to fight another cheesemode tactic and much butthurt has ensued.

Halrloprillalar

If you can't counter oil, why do you keep bumrushing it?

Option 1) get better group coordination (purify/purge/barrier/negate)
Option 2) Don't cap resource, demo the tower
Option 3) Go elsewhere

Oil is fine.

Ralathar44

Infraction wrote: »

No sympathy for getting farmed at a resource tower. If you aren't smart enough to scout it before taking it then you deserve to get farmed.

Too many times I've seen people run in a tower as it's being sieges only to watch the other side just take the resource.

This logic is universally applicable to anything. This includes both balanced things and imbalanced things. For instance: "No sympathy for getting farmed by DK's, if you are not smart enough to roll DK before entering PVP you deserve to be farmed."

As such, this statement, as it is, is rather worthless and bears no real weight. It masquerades as logic without actually having the wit and bite of logic.

More specifically: scouting does not counter this tactic, it merely lets you spend your time more effectively by not trying to counter a cheesey tactic. The tactic itself is no less effective and has myriad applications besides just farming considering the enemy cannot effectively remove you without far superior numbers and organization due to game mechanics working differently than intended.

Ralathar44

Limitless wrote: »

ESO Forums, naive as always.

Why not just let resources towers be destroyed by the faction who owns it?

Because the point of owning towers is that they should be advantageous. Being forced to raze your own tower (which you'll either have to repair or leave razed), because of a broken gameplay mechanic that turns owning a tower into a detriment is poor design.

It's a win-win for the enemy due to gameplay mechanics not tactics. If you destroy your own tower you can now less effectively defend the nearby resource flag. The only reason they can successfully defend the tower against overwhelming odds is not tactics, nor skill, but instead a misused gameplay mechanic.

If they could hold out on their own? I'd be alot more ok with that. But oil pots are 3/4 of their defense.

Ralathar44

Bloodvax wrote: »

Most of the people asking for a nerf to oil pots are the people in zerg guilds that ball up and spam impulse while stampeding up the stairs. Then they say how good they are at "organized pvp". People are using one cheesemode to fight another cheesemode tactic and much butthurt has ensued.

Fallacy, I could just as easily say:

"Most of the people defending oil pots are the people in lame guilds that ball up and spam oil pots at anything that moves inside resource towers."

Then they say how good they are at "organized pvp". People are using one cheesemode to fight another cheesemode tactic and much butthurt has ensued.



I personally think Impulse needs to be nerfed and the rest of destruction staff (like wall of elements) needs to be buffed. I also think that the elemental debuff in destruction staff is an inherently flawed edition that holds back the set.

Infraction

Ralathar44 wrote: »

Infraction wrote: »

No sympathy for getting farmed at a resource tower. If you aren't smart enough to scout it before taking it then you deserve to get farmed.

Too many times I've seen people run in a tower as it's being sieges only to watch the other side just take the resource.

This logic is universally applicable to anything. This includes both balanced things and imbalanced things. For instance: "No sympathy for getting farmed by DK's, if you are not smart enough to roll DK before entering PVP you deserve to be farmed."

As such, this statement, as it is, is rather worthless and bears no real weight. It masquerades as logic without actually having the wit and bite of logic.

More specifically: scouting does not counter this tactic, it merely lets you spend your time more effectively by not trying to counter a cheesey tactic. The tactic itself is no less effective and has myriad applications besides just farming considering the enemy cannot effectively remove you without far superior numbers and organization due to game mechanics working differently than intended.

Not in this case.

Destroying a resource tower before the flag is flipped would solve the entire issue of people camping with oil inside. If you know they are setting up in there, which anyone paying any amount of attention would see, then knock the tower down first. You taking the resource as they setup just gives them an indestructible safe haven to farm in. Its on you at that point, not the devs.

As far as keeps go I see people all the time charge up to the door or breach and then stop, right where the oil is concentrated. Why do you stop where the oil is? Either don't charge and let the standoff ensue or pop maneuvers or barrier or purge or all of them and push through the choke point. Rather than do that though people push up get hit by oil and stop and then proceed to get drilled by more oil or aoe's.

This is a player issue not a dev issue.

Infraction

Ralathar44 wrote: »

Limitless wrote: »

ESO Forums, naive as always.

Why not just let resources towers be destroyed by the faction who owns it?

Because the point of owning towers is that they should be advantageous. Being forced to raze your own tower (which you'll either have to repair or leave razed), because of a broken gameplay mechanic that turns owning a tower into a detriment is poor design.

It's a win-win for the enemy due to gameplay mechanics not tactics. If you destroy your own tower you can now less effectively defend the nearby resource flag. The only reason they can successfully defend the tower against overwhelming odds is not tactics, nor skill, but instead a misused gameplay mechanic.

If they could hold out on their own? I'd be alot more ok with that. But oil pots are 3/4 of their defense.

Resource towers are so rarely if ever defended by the realm that owns them unless you take one with the intent of farming.

Jaxom

Or....get this.....dont run into the tower that you know has 5 oil pots on the ground. Stop trying to kill the 4 people in the tower with your group of 20 and go do something else. It's really not worth the few extra kills. If you see an enemy player in a resource tower, 99/100, there will be oil on the ground.

I find it facinating that people will continue to bang their head against the walls and be killed over and over again just for a few kills in a resource tower.

Ralathar44

Infraction wrote: »

Not in this case.

Destroying a resource tower before the flag is flipped would solve the entire issue of people camping with oil inside. If you know they are setting up in there, which anyone paying any amount of attention would see, then knock the tower down first.

This part is totally fine.

You taking the resource as they setup just gives them an indestructible safe haven to farm in. Its on you at that point, not the devs.

This part is not, taking the tower should not give them an advantage. Neither can you be allowed to inflict friendly fire on your own towers for obvious reasons. This is obviously just poor design. It's pretty common sense despite reaching justifications.

As far as keeps go I see people all the time charge up to the door or breach and then stop, right where the oil is concentrated. Why do you stop where the oil is? Either don't charge and let the standoff ensue or pop maneuvers or barrier or purge or all of them and push through the choke point. Rather than do that though people push up get hit by oil and stop and then proceed to get drilled by more oil or aoe's.

This is a player issue not a dev issue.

To be honest, they spam roots, snares, volcanic rune and keep caltrops down at the door. Also when you load into the door there is 1- 2 seconds where you cannot act, by the time you can you are already taking damage/rooted/snared.

Most of the people you see stopped are slowed, snared, chilled, rooted, stunned, hit by volcanic rune (which is almost always used collectively and spread), or loading in due to door lag.

I've gotten past it a few times, but the amount of people who make it past the initial barrage is a minute amount of the total and easily mopped up by the enemy forces (normally they don't even have to move, the second floor just pours oil on you lol).

Immortal_Wombat

I've always found the idea of a backfire in weaponry sensible. I think that if there was some way of making things such as ballistas and trebuchets explode themselves, it could make room for a non-friendly fire oil pot. This allows everything to be leveled and allows realism and proper game mechanics to take place.

Ralathar44

Jaxom wrote: »

Or....get this.....dont run into the tower that you know has 5 oil pots on the ground. Stop trying to kill the 4 people in the tower with your group of 20 and go do something else. It's really not worth the few extra kills. If you see an enemy player in a resource tower, 99/100, there will be oil on the ground.

I find it facinating that people will continue to bang their head against the walls and be killed over and over again just for a few kills in a resource tower.

Ok, so you run off somewhere else, they wait, they come out and take the resources and contest the keep robbing you of the link/waypoint with minimal troops required.

If you return they just bunker back up in the nearest tower.

Yup, you TOTALLY won that battle.

Jaxom

Ralathar44 wrote: »

Jaxom wrote: »

Or....get this.....dont run into the tower that you know has 5 oil pots on the ground. Stop trying to kill the 4 people in the tower with your group of 20 and go do something else. It's really not worth the few extra kills. If you see an enemy player in a resource tower, 99/100, there will be oil on the ground.

I find it facinating that people will continue to bang their head against the walls and be killed over and over again just for a few kills in a resource tower.

Ok, so you run off somewhere else, they wait, they come out and take the resources and contest the keep robbing you of the link/waypoint with minimal troops required.

If you return they just bunker back up in the nearest tower.

Yup, you TOTALLY won that battle.

Completely missed my point as well as taking it to an extreme. What you are saying isnt likely to happen. I'm not saying leave and go to the other side of the map. If you are smart, you lure them out, and wipe them as they try to take the resource back. Didnt think I needed to spell it all out but clearly I did.

The point was, it's simply not worth banging your head against the wall for 4 people.

dcincali

Well, Crystal shards should cut the fingers of the caster then.. Talons should burn the DK and the Impulse spamming sorc should have no hair from it all being burnt off... See what I did there..

Halrloprillalar

Ralathar44 wrote: »

Jaxom wrote: »

Or....get this.....dont run into the tower that you know has 5 oil pots on the ground. Stop trying to kill the 4 people in the tower with your group of 20 and go do something else. It's really not worth the few extra kills. If you see an enemy player in a resource tower, 99/100, there will be oil on the ground.

I find it facinating that people will continue to bang their head against the walls and be killed over and over again just for a few kills in a resource tower.

Ok, so you run off somewhere else, they wait, they come out and take the resources and contest the keep robbing you of the link/waypoint with minimal troops required.

If you return they just bunker back up in the nearest tower.

Yup, you TOTALLY won that battle.

They are also totally wasting their time not getting AP for this duration... so in a sense, you did win.

Ralathar44

Jaxom wrote: »

Completely missed my point as well as taking it to an extreme. What you are saying isnt likely to happen. I'm not saying leave and go to the other side of the map. If you are smart, you lure them out, and wipe them as they try to take the resource back. Didnt think I needed to spell it all out but clearly I did.

The point was, it's simply not worth banging your head against the wall for 4 people.

Ok, so you have to assume they are smart enough to know what game mechanics to abuse, disciplined enough to wait for people to come to them in the tower, but stupid enough to come out while you are still close enough to run down and kill them before they retake the resource (restarting the whole process.)

Meanwhile this small group of folks makes your group worthless to the rest of the war OR takes resources/cuts links. Tactically it's a win-win for them no matter what way you slice it.

LOL is all I gotta say.


(4 people is bull, people camp resource towers with multiple groups, not 4 people.)

Halrloprillalar

Ralathar44 wrote: »

Infraction wrote: »

Not in this case.

Destroying a resource tower before the flag is flipped would solve the entire issue of people camping with oil inside. If you know they are setting up in there, which anyone paying any amount of attention would see, then knock the tower down first.

This part is totally fine.

You taking the resource as they setup just gives them an indestructible safe haven to farm in. Its on you at that point, not the devs.

This part is not, taking the tower should not give them an advantage. Neither can you be allowed to inflict friendly fire on your own towers for obvious reasons. This is obviously just poor design. It's pretty common sense despite reaching justifications.

As far as keeps go I see people all the time charge up to the door or breach and then stop, right where the oil is concentrated. Why do you stop where the oil is? Either don't charge and let the standoff ensue or pop maneuvers or barrier or purge or all of them and push through the choke point. Rather than do that though people push up get hit by oil and stop and then proceed to get drilled by more oil or aoe's.

This is a player issue not a dev issue.

To be honest, they spam roots, snares, volcanic rune and keep caltrops down at the door. Also when you load into the door there is 1- 2 seconds where you cannot act, by the time you can you are already taking damage/rooted/snared.

Most of the people you see stopped are slowed, snared, chilled, rooted, stunned, hit by volcanic rune (which is almost always used collectively and spread), or loading in due to door lag.

I've gotten past it a few times, but the amount of people who make it past the initial barrage is a minute amount of the total and easily mopped up by the enemy forces (normally they don't even have to move, the second floor just pours oil on you lol).

The previous quote had it right.

You can immovable/block/negate volcanic runes.

You can purge and purify oil/caltrops/firepot dots and YES even talons; retreating maneuver makes you immune to root/snares until you hit something, bone shield and barrier are both excellent 'rush' abilities.

There really is no excuse to get farmed by an equally sized or smaller group except poor play.

Ralathar44

Halrloprillalar wrote: »

The previous quote had it right.

You can immovable/block/negate volcanic runes.

You can purge and purify oil/caltrops/firepot dots and YES even talons; retreating maneuver makes you immune to root/snares until you hit something, bone shield and barrier are both excellent 'rush' abilities.

There really is no excuse to get farmed by an equally sized or smaller group except poor play.

Oh good, so it only takes a specific combo of abilities to counter something any random group of players can do by abusing game mechanics. Yup, seems totally balanced.

Halrloprillalar

Ralathar44 wrote: »

Halrloprillalar wrote: »

The previous quote had it right.

You can immovable/block/negate volcanic runes.

You can purge and purify oil/caltrops/firepot dots and YES even talons; retreating maneuver makes you immune to root/snares until you hit something, bone shield and barrier are both excellent 'rush' abilities.

There really is no excuse to get farmed by an equally sized or smaller group except poor play.

Oh good, so it only takes a specific combo of abilities to counter something any random group of players can do by abusing game mechanics. Yup, seems totally balanced.

"Using abilities to counter other abilities in PVP??? Inconceivable!!!"

Ralathar44

Halrloprillalar wrote: »

"Using abilities to counter other abilities in PVP??? Inconceivable!!!"

If possible you want to build a dynamic PVP situation where there are multiple ability sets and tactics to gain the advantage in any given situation. This is called depth.

Rock, Paper, Scissors is fine as far as balance goes, but tends to provide much more limited depth and limits people as far as build diversity and play style considerably. This is one reason hyrbids and build freedom have been proliferating increasing amounts over time in MMORPG's. It's also why the holy trinity has been made continuously more flexible on average.

Variety, dynamic combat, and dynamic strategies that are continuously changing is what gives PVP in particular it's staying power. Tying it down into rote combos and counters is a really good way to make people bored with it quickly.

Halrloprillalar

Ralathar44 wrote: »

Halrloprillalar wrote: »

"Using abilities to counter other abilities in PVP??? Inconceivable!!!"

If possible you want to build a dynamic PVP situation where there are multiple ability sets and tactics to gain the advantage in any given situation. This is called depth.

Rock, Paper, Scissors is fine as far as balance goes, but tends to provide much more limited depth and limits people as far as build diversity and play style considerably. This is one reason hyrbids and build freedom have been proliferating increasing amounts over time in MMORPG's. It's also why the holy trinity has been made continuously more flexible on average.

Variety, dynamic combat, and dynamic strategies that are continuously changing is what gives PVP in particular it's staying power. Tying it down into rote combos and counters is a really good way to make people bored with it quickly.

You literally just built a case for slotting specific abilities for specific situations.

So what is the problem with building specifically againt an oil farm????

I gave you a list of no less than 10 different possible skills you could get your group members to use. You can also come up with your own creative ways that achieve the same thing (I am sure it is possible) instead of complaining about how oil is OP.

If anything, they need to add more ways to gank/kill/stop people from bumrushing keeps. Oil just happens to be extremely effective at what it does, if they add something like 'sewage traps' to the game that do something like disable all healing or reduce damage done by 75% I am sure people will find a way to get in on it.

Ralathar44

Halrloprillalar wrote: »

So what is the problem with building specifically againt an oil farm????

This:

Halrloprillalar wrote: »

oil farm????

Ralathar44

Halrloprillalar wrote: »

If anything, they need to add more ways to gank/kill/stop people from bumrushing keeps. Oil just happens to be extremely effective at what it does, if they add something like 'sewage traps' to the game that do something like disable all healing or reduce damage done by 75% I am sure people will find a way to get in on it.

What more do you really want? You get very strong guards, superior siege positioning, 3 resource camps that they need to take at least 1-2 of, and oil pots.

Defenders already have a significant advantage and attackers cannot starve defenders or sap the walls either. Typically if you lose a siege the enemy is either playing much better or has alot more people.

Halrloprillalar

Ralathar44 wrote: »

Halrloprillalar wrote: »

So what is the problem with building specifically againt an oil farm????

This:

Halrloprillalar wrote: »

oil farm????

Once again. It is only a 'farm' because clueless people bumrush it.

It's like Pavlovian conditioning in pvp.

Halrloprillalar

Ralathar44 wrote: »

Halrloprillalar wrote: »

If anything, they need to add more ways to gank/kill/stop people from bumrushing keeps. Oil just happens to be extremely effective at what it does, if they add something like 'sewage traps' to the game that do something like disable all healing or reduce damage done by 75% I am sure people will find a way to get in on it.

What more do you really want? You get very strong guards, superior siege positioning, 3 resource camps that they need to take at least 1-2 of, and oil pots.

Defenders already have a significant advantage and attackers cannot starve defenders or sap the walls either. Typically if you lose a siege the enemy is either playing much better or has alot more people.

That's a good thing. Keeps shouldn't swap hands so frequently. Capturing them should be meaningful. I don't want AvA to be 'musical keep chairs'

Ralathar44

Halrloprillalar wrote: »

That's a good thing. Keeps shouldn't swap hands so frequently. Capturing them should be meaningful. I don't want AvA to be 'musical keep chairs'

I agree with you and I think they've done a fine job on that for the most part. Oil pots not being pourable at your feet wouldn't really impact keep defense at all. Keeps are currently difficult to take and much easier to defend than take.

I think it's well balanced in that regard.