Oil Pots should damage the user if he is in the AOE.

Ralathar44

This is a simple fix to the ground oil pots thing. You use the oil pot and are in the AOE, it hits you as well. No worries of griefing because it doesn't hit anyone, just keeps people from using some of the lamer oil spam.

Pour somewhere else = good.
Pour at your own feet = you die too.

Tintinabula

I wear my stilettos when I pour oil...dont you?

Dleatherus

Ralathar44 wrote: »

This is a simple fix to the ground oil pots thing. You use the oil pot and are in the AOE, it hits you as well. No worries of griefing because it doesn't hit anyone, just keeps people from using some of the lamer oil spam.

Pour somewhere else = good.
Pour at your own feet = you die too.

hrmmm - am torn on this one - intially i was 'that makes sense' and then it was 'well shouldn't all friendly siege weapon damage hurt like fire trebs and fire ballista?'

then it's like shouldn't friendly AoE period damage you - we're gonna nerf everything =down

multi oil pots can be OP - but they are about the only counter to the restro/destro clone 'bait balls' of 10-20 players - nerf the pots, then nerf the restro/destro trains - and then nerf anything else that can kill you

D.

Gravord

Better solution is to remove any dmg from oil used on flat ground. Theres no reason for oil under your shoe to do 2k dmg per second from every oil pad (which is usually way more than one).

Second solution to apply in same time - increase minimum distance between oils to plant them, so there will be no more 5-10 oils on 25 square meters doing mad dmg to everyone in area.

cjmarsh725b14_ESO

Dleatherus wrote: »

multi oil pots can be OP - but they are about the only counter to the restro/destro clone 'bait balls' of 10-20 players - nerf the pots, then nerf the restro/destro trains - and then nerf anything else that can kill you
-
D.

Those aoe group trains could really use another counter though. I wouldn't mind adding damage to the user of the oil pot if there was another siege that did more damage to players based on the number of players grouped together, or something similar.

Sharee

A logical solution would be to only allow oil to do damage if the targeting circle is some distance below the cauldron. At least as high as a human being is tall.

Hot oil is dangerous when poured on your head, not when you step into it(unless you slip and fall face-first into the puddle )

the.dzeneralb16_ESO

Better idea: Since Oil pots aren't OP and are one of the best methods against a counter zerg, and very weak against smart, organized, coordinated groups, we don't touch them.

If your group is going in and there are no heals/purges/purifies being dropped while you attack/storm a keep, you're doing it wrong.

Derpsicles

the.dzeneralb16_ESO wrote: »

Better idea: Since Oil pots aren't OP and are one of the best methods against a counter zerg, and very weak against smart, organized, coordinated groups, we don't touch them.

If your group is going in and there are no heals/purges/purifies being dropped while you attack/storm a keep, you're doing it wrong.

^ You are doing it WRONG

Gornt_Grimreaver

You going to call the same nerf to caltrops ?

Gravord

Oil abuse+root spam+silence=broken system

Fix oil on flat ground. Fix oil on flat ground. Fix oil on flat ground. Fix oil on flat ground. Fix oil on flat ground. Fix oil on flat ground. Fix oil on flat ground. Fix oil on flat ground. Fix oil on flat ground. Fix oil on flat ground. Fix oil on flat ground. Fix oil on flat ground. Fix oil on flat ground. Fix oil on flat ground. Fix oil on flat ground. Fix oil on flat ground. Fix oil on flat ground. Fix oil on flat ground. Fix oil on flat ground. Fix oil on flat ground.

Niberion

The other solution is, deploy oils only on the keep walls

TomLukman

Problem with oil on the ground like that picture is that you often can't drop ultimates. (It's not silece, because other spells work). Game is turning into oil wars.

Erlorns

I'd love to see how much organization you need to put down 6 oils on top of a tower and kill every single player that comes up (counting well organized groups) ...
Thanks for replacing mindless zergs by mindless oiling ...

Braidas

Naah using oil is too much fun

nan.jieb17_ESO

Or just do it like in Warhammer and let oil only be put at special oil locations (one at a time)(in Warhammer it was above the keepdoor but I think here postern should also be fine) that would solve any problem and wouldnt nerf oil to the ground.

Gravord

nan.jieb17_ESO wrote: »

Or just do it like in Warhammer and let oil only be put at special oil locations (one at a time)(in Warhammer it was above the keepdoor but I think here postern should also be fine) that would solve any problem and would nerf oil TO LEVEL ACCEPTABLE IN REASONABLE PVP SYSTEM.

Fixed

Erlorns

nan.jieb17_ESO wrote: »

Or just do it like in Warhammer and let oil only be put at special oil locations (one at a time)(in Warhammer it was above the keepdoor but I think here postern should also be fine) that would solve any problem and wouldnt nerf oil to the ground.

+1

A good solution and more realistic one

Ralathar44

I'm just giving another idea. I personally prefer that oil have a height limitation but these is likely an easier fix that will accomplish the same thing without forcing it.

I'm actually against set siege point for oil on a keep. Oil placed on outside walls can be countered with other siege. Oil placed inside buildings can be countered. It's being able to place oil on the ground and hit the ground next to it that opens up the situations where people are able to just camp the oil and spam root/silences and such.

For dang sure being silenced and rooted before you can even do anything entering a resource tower that you own and then killed by oil within a second is something that needs to be addressed.


For folks that support Oil being the way it is I have a few counters for you:

• If oil really is one of the only ways to counter zergs, then you are preventing actual proper balancing from being done with this band-aid fix.
• This makes the game look really stupid to new people interested in our PVP, thus driving down interest in prospective new players and hurting the game.
• Most of the groups in PVP are NOT smart nor organized. Thus even if this is countered by smart organized groups, this hurts the experience of most.
• I'd much rather have the stupid and unorganized pugs destroyed by good play and tactics than cheesy tactics that the same stupid and unorganized pugs can pull off. Reward skill, not exploitation of an imbalanced mechanic.
• "Oil wouldn't hurt you if poured at your feet." Some try to say. Go boil a large pot of water and splash it from chest height on the ground at your feet, let me know how that works, now multiply that by a factor of 50 . (I am not liable for your burn injuries) *hint* if oil was only effective against the people it directly poured on it wouldn't have been so effective of a defense weapon.

the.dzeneralb16_ESO

Ralathar44 wrote: »

I'm just giving another idea. I personally prefer that oil have a height limitation but these is likely an easier fix that will accomplish the same thing without forcing it.

I'm actually against set siege point for oil on a keep. Oil placed on outside walls can be countered with other siege. Oil placed inside buildings can be countered. It's being able to place oil on the ground and hit the ground next to it that opens up the situations where people are able to just camp the oil and spam root/silences and such.

For dang sure being silenced and rooted before you can even do anything entering a resource tower that you own and then killed by oil within a second is something that needs to be addressed.


For folks that support Oil being the way it is I have a few counters for you:

• If oil really is one of the only ways to counter zergs, then you are preventing actual proper balancing from being done with this band-aid fix.
• This makes the game look really stupid to new people interested in our PVP, thus driving down interest in prospective new players and hurting the game.
• Most of the groups in PVP are NOT smart nor organized. Thus even if this is countered by smart organized groups, this hurts the experience of most.
• I'd much rather have the stupid and unorganized pugs destroyed by good play and tactics than cheesy tactics that the same stupid and unorganized pugs can pull off. Reward skill, not exploitation of an imbalanced mechanic.
• "Oil wouldn't hurt you if poured at your feet." Some try to say. Go boil a large pot of water and splash it from chest height on the ground at your feet, let me know how that works, now multiply that by a factor of 50 . (I am not liable for your burn injuries) *hint* if oil was only effective against the people it directly poured on it wouldn't have been so effective of a defense weapon.

- Then when something that isn't a bandaid fix comes, we can change oil
- I don't see how
- We shouldn't cater to people who are not smart or playing smart or organizing in a large scale pvp that needs you to be organized and smart
- Except pugs and randoms get destroyed regardless of oil by orgnaized groups
- Don't know what this is about

Ralathar44

Ralathar44 wrote: »

• This makes the game look really stupid to new people interested in our PVP, thus driving down interest in prospective new players and hurting the game.

the.dzeneralb16_ESO wrote: »

- I don't see how

The internet always does make me laugh with how biased people get.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDTfAOf6yzs

the.dzeneralb16_ESO

Ralathar44 wrote: »

Ralathar44 wrote: »

• This makes the game look really stupid to new people interested in our PVP, thus driving down interest in prospective new players and hurting the game.

the.dzeneralb16_ESO wrote: »

- I don't see how

The internet always does make me laugh with how biased people get.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDTfAOf6yzs

Umm a bunch of people entering one by one inside a defended tower? I'm not sure what this is trying to prove? A full raid of people inside a door with nothing but heals and purges and defenses set up should lose to people casually walking in one by one?

edit: On closer inspection it may have been 2 by 2 walking in. Fun fact: Those people walking in would have been slaughtered regardless if that oil was there or not

Ralathar44

the.dzeneralb16_ESO wrote: »

Ralathar44 wrote: »

Ralathar44 wrote: »

• This makes the game look really stupid to new people interested in our PVP, thus driving down interest in prospective new players and hurting the game.

the.dzeneralb16_ESO wrote: »

- I don't see how

The internet always does make me laugh with how biased people get.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDTfAOf6yzs

Umm a bunch of people entering one by one inside a defended tower? I'm not sure what this is trying to prove? A full raid of people inside a door with nothing but heals and purges and defenses set up should lose to people casually walking in one by one?

edit: On closer inspection it may have been 2 by 2 walking in. Fun fact: Those people walking in would have been slaughtered regardless if that oil was there or not

Because of the way the mechanics on all these things work, 2 by 2 and 10 by 10 do not have much of a difference. I have tested this with groups personally as I followed the pugs into a tower, en masse, thinking that perhaps with enough people you could break it. With easily 3 to 1 odds.

However that thinking is emphatically wrong. Though if you bring enough they might actually have to FIGHT 1-2 people out of the horde they slaughter.

Literally all they have to do is spam roots and aoe damage on top of the oil to kill EVERYONE. Thanks to door lag they also get an additional second or two to react as an advantage over you.

The current imbalances with DK's only exacerbate this issue as you can have extremely hard to kill the FOTM DK's who will be spamming the oil and dragon's talon's on you.

It's just an additional spit in the face that part of the reason they can do this is because the tower cannot be destructed in any way lol. Also, that it's typically a tower YOU own haha.

the.dzeneralb16_ESO

If I'm not mistaken you can actually siege those towers and destroy them (I know we have on several resource nodes). If not I would agree that there needs to be some sort of change to the towers (I could be wrong but I'm 99% sure they can be destroyed correct me if I'm wrong).

Truth is, you should not be able to just walk through that door and be fine and beat a full raid of people. Should you be able to break their defenses? 100%, I'm not disagreeing with that, especially if that method is to siege a tower.

I'm not suggestion we don't need changes to pvp and sieges, but what I am suggesting is that people who are unorganized and dont drop purges, sieges, camps, etc... for the benefit of the faction, should not even come close to people who are willing to do that. Oils can be defeated, easily at that.

I would suggest a change for oils though: To only make them usable in keeps/towers and no away. Lately I've been seeing (I've done it myself) in a huge battle, just drop down some oil and burn people. I'm not suggesting to not be able to put them on floors, just that it has to be in keeps/towers.

Ralathar44

the.dzeneralb16_ESO wrote: »

If I'm not mistaken you can actually siege those towers and destroy them (I know we have on several resource nodes). If not I would agree that there needs to be some sort of change to the towers (I could be wrong but I'm 99% sure they can be destroyed correct me if I'm wrong).

Regardless of whether you can or not you definitely cannot when they are owned by you, which is generally when they decide to camp them. The irony is that your ownership of the tower protects them even if the tower is destructible.

We obviously cannot allow friendly fire damage to our own structures and making enemy siege disappear from things and unable to be placed when you take it seems similarly unfair.

Oil is the only thing causing the problem anyhows, it's the easiest fix and can be done while keeping oil a valuable part of defenses.

I would suggest a change for oils though: To only make them usable in keeps/towers and no away. Lately I've been seeing (I've done it myself) in a huge battle, just drop down some oil and burn people. I'm not suggesting to not be able to put them on floors, just that it has to be in keeps/towers.

Why? Why would you make that distinction? If they are placeable on floors and usable on floors then there is absolutely no reason to disallow them in open field combat. Also, putting them on the grass and using it is one thing, putting them on overhanging rocks and bridges should still be valid.

Orchish

I like the OP's solution. It means you can still try to defend a keep with low numbers against many, but risk sacrificing your self in doing so at the same time. I like it.

Teargrants

Are we really debating whether resource towers can be sieged down or not? This is a basic mechanic, ENEMY resource towers can be sieged down, your own cannot. The solution to resource campers is so elegantly simple, just siege their tower down before capping the flag. The only hang up is that the mindless pugs NEVER do that, they always jump on the flag then try to siege their own tower.

Whenever I run in a group we always try to siege the tower first if we see any defenders, but the pugs invariably run up and cap the flag before we can siege it down. The nice thing about that though, is we then get to watch the pugs zerg into the tower and get wiped as they deserve. Please don't take that away from me.

Yasha

Totally agree that oil needs to be addressed. You should not be able to pour oil on the floor around you like it is now.

Either it needs to have friendly fire enabled or only be able to be used from a high point to a low point (like from walls to the ground/lower floor) or some other intelligent solution.

As it is atm, oil can be used in a very cheesy way that really detracts from the pvp experience. Its up there with the vampire/dk build that was able to take on whole zergs, and I really hope something is done about it.

Sasky

Oil in a resource tower is one thing - in a keep defending the flag room or postern is completely different. It's actually a lot easier to setup an OP oil defense in a resource tower than in a keep. So, don't nerf the oil but nerf/redo the resource tower.

Seriously, how often is the resource tower useful while you still own it? Within the tower is pointless, since you can only enter if you own the resource. You can get maybe 2 full-sized siege on top of the tower (or on the first landing with a crap view angle), which don't do a whole lot on defense. You can get a forward camp up top or a couple siege and hit the keep (at select resources). That's it and maybe 1 in 20.

Watch how much of these oil complaints would go away if you removed those towers or made it so you couldn't place oil inside for just those somehow. (Have a no-siege area, place crap inside to make the ground uneven, doesn't matter).

Tintinabula

I do think oil should be a frontal aoe type of thing like bows. It makes sense that it would splash out from the pot...not in a huge circular ring around the pot. That's the only suggestion I have.

Ralathar44

I like someone defending oil have suggested that you completely raze a tower, being used or not, before taking things because owning it becomes a detriment. Rather than fix ownership being a disadvantage lets have people raze structures and then be forced to rebuild them or leave them razed even if the enemy isn't using them. LOLOL that's so wrong it isn't even funny.

I also like how someone defending oil suggested that they dedicate large amounts of resources to completely redesigning the resource tower rather than the trivial resources required to patch out an unintended use of oil pots.

Honestly, forums are nothing if not entertaining. Hey, If you two have time gimme some arguments for Bright Wizards (WAR), Stun Lock Rogues (WOW), Fire Tanks (COH), Bainshee's (DAOC), Light Armor/Stave DKs (dis game), Imperial Bias (SWTOR), basically all healing classes but especially Wardens (RIFT), and Smite Clerics (DAOC). I could always use more laughs from you guys as you defend the most broken of things .

Krentar_RNX

If people wants to counter much bigger groups. Then they should play better or ask for removing AoE cap. But filling everything with oils isnt the solution, specially in flat.

No way i can get my friends interested in playing ESO AvA, they laugh everytime i show them a video with an oil in every corner -_-