Oil Pots should damage the user if he is in the AOE.

Infraction

Ralathar44 wrote: »

Halrloprillalar wrote: »

The previous quote had it right.

You can immovable/block/negate volcanic runes.

You can purge and purify oil/caltrops/firepot dots and YES even talons; retreating maneuver makes you immune to root/snares until you hit something, bone shield and barrier are both excellent 'rush' abilities.

There really is no excuse to get farmed by an equally sized or smaller group except poor play.

Oh good, so it only takes a specific combo of abilities to counter something any random group of players can do by abusing game mechanics. Yup, seems totally balanced.

A specific set of abilities that everyone has access to and if you are in a group some people should have.

Halrloprillalar

Ralathar44 wrote: »

Halrloprillalar wrote: »

That's a good thing. Keeps shouldn't swap hands so frequently. Capturing them should be meaningful. I don't want AvA to be 'musical keep chairs'

I agree with you and I think they've done a fine job on that for the most part. Oil pots not being pourable at your feet wouldn't really impact keep defense at all. Keeps are currently difficult to take and much easier to defend than take.

I think it's well balanced in that regard.

Keeps are not 'hard to take', an undefended keep can be flipped with 6-8 decent people. Defending against an organized siege (siege shields and purges) is very difficult, actually, since anti-siege space is much lower total area than within-range external siege area. Oil is essential for thwarting the initial push once walls are breached, and even that is not always possible due to the readily avaiable counter tactics I've described. It essentially comes down to whose forward camp bugs out first...

The pouring-at-feet is a very niche tactic that affects very little of actual strategy and serves no purpose other than to troll bad players for AP. I don't care either way if it gets fixed, just find it hilarious.

Ralathar44

Halrloprillalar wrote: »

Keeps are not 'hard to take', an undefended keep can be flipped with 6-8 decent people.

LOLOLOLOLOLOL. Uses undefended keep as opening statement/underlying basis, still takes 2 groups. Amount needed is increased by 2 - 3 or so for every additional defender.

Defending against an organized siege (siege shields and purges) is very difficult, actually, since anti-siege space is much lower total area than within-range external siege area. Oil is essential for thwarting the initial push once walls are breached, and even that is not always possible due to the readily avaiable counter tactics I've described.

So you mean, you actually have to fight them, with them entering through a choke point, while you have guard support....AND YOU ARE CAPABLE OF LOSING?

*GASP, the horror*

It essentially comes down to whose forward camp bugs out first...

Forward camp bug is definitely annoying.

The pouring-at-feet is a very niche tactic that affects very little of actual strategy and serves no purpose other than to troll bad players for AP. I don't care either way if it gets fixed, just find it hilarious.

Says he doesn't care whether it gets fixed: posts 5 times in this thread in favor of it not getting fixed within 8 hours.

The LOL's continue.



Additional bits and bobs:
As an FYI you are aware that keep takes will be harder when they nerf DK survivability right? All players being considered equal surviving is much more difficult for the siegers than the defenders.

Also people haven't even started evolving the strategies yet. Siege protection bubbles are static, people are not doing smart things like using fiery grip to pull enemies into unprotected territory yet because people are still primarily using brute force tactics atm. There is little finesse or strategy because of the remaining imbalances that are slowly getting ironed out reward brute force atm.

SBR_QuorTek

The setting is no friendly fire, but we could make it elite and make friendly fire an option, would neutralize zergs... not that I mind zergs there is so many ways to play as well.

In PvP zones naturally... bizarre thought, but well and weird person here lol.

Halrloprillalar

Ralathar44 wrote: »

snip

Also people haven't even started evolving the strategies yet. Siege protection bubbles are static, people are not doing smart things like using fiery grip to pull enemies into unprotected territory yet because people are still primarily using brute force tactics atm. There is little finesse or strategy because of the remaining imbalances that are slowly getting ironed out reward brute force atm.

... What?

I said oil is an issue for PuGs. If you mostly run in a PuG, I see how it is a problem for you. #sorrynotsorry I like my free AP but I will not cry if they fix it.

I said organized groups have an advantage on the outer offense, with a more even field for the inner keep depending on numbers, with oil being irrelevant until the 'break push', where it is crucial for defense.

Sending endless PuG zergs to cycle keeps is NOT the way to victory, unless you somehow broke the pop cap. I don't even get your last paragraph because none of it is true, other than bubbles being static (but so is siege equipment... derp?)

Ralathar44

Halrloprillalar wrote: »

Ralathar44 wrote: »

snip

Also people haven't even started evolving the strategies yet. Siege protection bubbles are static, people are not doing smart things like using fiery grip to pull enemies into unprotected territory yet because people are still primarily using brute force tactics atm. There is little finesse or strategy because of the remaining imbalances that are slowly getting ironed out reward brute force atm.

I don't even get your last paragraph because none of it is true, other than bubbles being static (but so is siege equipment... derp?)

Strategies will evolve once the overpowered things have been reigned in a bit. It's quite simple really. When X is fundamentally stronger than everything else X will be used whenever available. In this case X is primarily DK's in broken builds for PVP.

When people can no longer simply rely on this to achieve victory other advantageous strategies will come into focus as people search for the most effective things you can currently do and, once found, it's counters.

Trying to assess keep balance, siege shield effectiveness, and siege effectiveness in the current climate would be sheer madness. DK's are the majority of serious PVP players because they are OP currently (as admitted by devs) and when they get nerfed (especially in survivability as per devs), the PVP balance of power will shift dramatically.

Then we can see where things stand, if anything else is particularly broken, and if nothing else is dominatingly broken then we can see how effective all those things are.

Infraction

Ralathar44 wrote: »

Halrloprillalar wrote: »

Ralathar44 wrote: »

snip

Also people haven't even started evolving the strategies yet. Siege protection bubbles are static, people are not doing smart things like using fiery grip to pull enemies into unprotected territory yet because people are still primarily using brute force tactics atm. There is little finesse or strategy because of the remaining imbalances that are slowly getting ironed out reward brute force atm.

I don't even get your last paragraph because none of it is true, other than bubbles being static (but so is siege equipment... derp?)

Strategies will evolve once the overpowered things have been reigned in a bit. It's quite simple really. When X is fundamentally stronger than everything else X will be used whenever available. In this case X is primarily DK's in broken builds for PVP.

When people can no longer simply rely on this to achieve victory other advantageous strategies will come into focus as people search for the most effective things you can currently do and, once found, it's counters.

Trying to assess keep balance, siege shield effectiveness, and siege effectiveness in the current climate would be sheer madness. DK's are the majority of serious PVP players because they are OP currently (as admitted by devs) and when they get nerfed (especially in survivability as per devs), the PVP balance of power will shift dramatically.

Then we can see where things stand, if anything else is particularly broken, and if nothing else is dominatingly broken then we can see how effective all those things are.

I think there are many that don't see this as a huge issue. Some of us have found and even offered ideas to counter such a tactic that was deemed unacceptable. People will continue to do things as long as they work. Part of strategies developing is peoples willingness to try things outside of their normal rotation of skills.

When skills were mentioned it was not assumed that you personally would have to run all of them since it is a group oriented pvp set. You would hope your group that you run in or build would come up with a combination of skills that can be used to counter oil defenses.

I don't run the same set of skills when I am defending a keep and when I am in the middle of the field ganking. Those same 5 abilities don't work as well if you take them out of the environment they were designed for and try to force them to work in every situation.

Lowbei

id agree that oil pots should damage the user

what kinda sense does it make to say "yeah i killed them by dumping oil on myself as they attacked me"

Halrloprillalar

@Ralathar44‌ Nowhere in that post have you explained how it supports the OP or even how it pertains to thread subject, but at least your English is exemplary*

*Apostrophe use needs work.

Lowbei

who are you talking about?

you rage a lot lol

Halrloprillalar

Lowbei wrote: »

id agree that oil pots should damage the user

what kinda sense does it make to say "yeah i killed them by dumping oil on myself as they attacked me"

but then how will those former EP emps at Sej get all their AP???

Lowbei wrote: »

who are you talking about?

you rage a lot lol

huh?

Ralathar44

Infraction wrote: »

I think there are many that don't see this as a huge issue. Some of us have found and even offered ideas to counter such a tactic that was deemed unacceptable. People will continue to do things as long as they work. Part of strategies developing is peoples willingness to try things outside of their normal rotation of skills.

When skills were mentioned it was not assumed that you personally would have to run all of them since it is a group oriented pvp set. You would hope your group that you run in or build would come up with a combination of skills that can be used to counter oil defenses.

I don't run the same set of skills when I am defending a keep and when I am in the middle of the field ganking. Those same 5 abilities don't work as well if you take them out of the environment they were designed for and try to force them to work in every situation.

Currently the core or PVP groups or even flat out the majority of PVP players are on dragon knights. They are capable superior DPS, superior survivability, and far superior self healing. They also have alot of heavy support like obsidian shield, which is very powerful when used collectively.

If the class composition of PVP groups change dramatically due to nerfs then so will the effectiveness of the tactics you mention. Because these tactics only enhance your ability to deal with what they counter, IE they are stacked on top of your normal mitigation. Thus when your normal mitigation falls, the effectiveness of these abilities will fall as well.

Also, anyone who is experienced in MMORPG's should know the concepts of defense stacking and effective health. Essentially the higher your ability to mitigate damage the more effective each increase to damage mitigation is.

Example: If I have 0% mitigation and I gain 25% mitigation I have cut my damage taken by 1/4. If I have 50% mitigation and I gain 25% mitigation I have cut my damage by 1/2. You can see the exact same increase gained twice as much return. If I heal someone with 0% mitigation for 100 hp I have effectively healed 100 hp worth of damage. If I heal someone with 50% mitigation for 100 hp I have effectively healed 150 hp worth of damage. Each point of healing counts for more on targets with more mitigation. In this case 1.5x as much.

Thus adding 20% protection to people who already have high mitigation, damage shields, and self heals will go far far far further than adding 20% mitigation to people who do not have those things.

This is why until the DK nerfs to survivability go through you cannot tell how effective these tactics you are mentioning are.

Lowbei

well you added the @name after in an edit so how am i to know who you are talking to?

meh

i think we agree on this subject

Ralathar44

Lowbei wrote: »

who are you talking about?

you rage a lot lol

Let me give you one of his quotes for ironies sake. Keep in mind he has posted like 10 times in 2 pages on this thread.

Halrloprillalar wrote: »

The pouring-at-feet is a very niche tactic that affects very little of actual strategy and serves no purpose other than to troll bad players for AP. I don't care either way if it gets fixed, just find it hilarious.

Lowbei

well this forum is a prime example why companies dont listen to forum polls, because the average human is stupid and will vote poorly

Halrloprillalar

Ralathar44 wrote: »

Lowbei wrote: »

who are you talking about?

you rage a lot lol

Let me give you one of his quotes for ironies sake. Keep in mind he has posted like 10 times in 2 pages on this thread.

Halrloprillalar wrote: »

The pouring-at-feet is a very niche tactic that affects very little of actual strategy and serves no purpose other than to troll bad players for AP. I don't care either way if it gets fixed, just find it hilarious.

Firstly, I am not a dude.

Secondly, I don't get strong feelings of rage from video games. I get frustrated by lag and server rollbacks sometimes, that's about it. I simply point out the faults in your reasoning - this thread isn't the only subject I comment on.

Thirdly (is that a word?), you are jumping from bashing oil to bashing DK, to bashing I don't even know what anymore, all the while people are giving you suggestions as to how to counter things, but you take no notice. Ironic indeed.

With that being said, I think this thread has derailed enough and could use a 'closed'.

Ralathar44

Lowbei wrote: »

well this forum is a prime example why companies dont listen to forum polls, because the average human is stupid and will vote poorly

Ironically I will disagree with you. The average human is not stupid. The average human is lazy and biased. Most of the people you say as stupid have the capability to be intelligent. But it's easier to BS. Even if it takes more effort in the long run all you have to do is barge ahead with minimal thinking and understanding.

If, as a society, we did not tolerate these social politics and BS the perceived intelligence of the human race would skyrocket because people would have no other recourse but to use their potential. But for right now not only is there little negative repercussions for it but in face they some sometimes get rewarded for it.

Lowbei

the thread is fine harl, stop whining for it to be closed simply because you dont like the conversation

Halrloprillalar

Lowbei wrote: »

the thread is fine harl, stop whining for it to be closed simply because you dont like the conversation

Walls of text isn't conversation. The last whole page of posts simply has nothing to do with the thread subject, which has been thoroughly addressed already.

Remember kids: concise is good.

Ralathar44

Halrloprillalar wrote: »

Firstly, I am not a dude.

Honestly why does this matter? Though now that I know I will refer to you as she from now on when I remember out of common courtesy.

Secondly, I don't get strong feelings of rage from video games. I get frustrated by lag and server rollbacks sometimes, that's about it. I simply point out the faults in your reasoning - this thread isn't the only subject I comment on.

To be fair, you shouldn't need to justify it. I'm not saying this as some sort of dig saying that you rage, I mean it as a flat and neutral statement. If you don't rage you don't need to address it as a serious concern.

I've personally not seen you rage in this thread, though we have highly disagreed.

Thirdly (is that a word?), you are jumping from bashing oil to bashing DK, to bashing I don't even know what anymore, all the while people are giving you suggestions as to how to counter things, but you take no notice. Ironic indeed.

Don't twist what I'm saying:

I'm not bashing Oil. I'm stating that pouring oil at your feet is an unintended mechanic that is not properly balanced in certain situation and LOOKS TERRIBLE (important for game image) all the time. Oil itself I believe is pretty well balanced and fun outside of this one instance.

I'm not bashing DK's either. What I said about DK's is 100% verifiable by developer statement. They have directly aknowledged that DK's are more powerful and need to be adjusted down, especially in the area of survivability.

It's also verifiable the there are an extremely inflated amount of DK's in PVP and that DK's also bear the highest DPS of any class as well as the most survivability. Light armor and staves are exacerbate this, but even independently of those DK's are still noticeably ahead.

With that being said, I think this thread has derailed enough and could use a 'closed'.

Honestly almost the entirety of the thread has been on topic. This is an illegitimate attempt to close the thread because you disagree with it.

Lowbei

yup.

"bads will request thread closures when they dont like the outcome."

Ralathar44

Halrloprillalar wrote: »

Lowbei wrote: »

the thread is fine harl, stop whining for it to be closed simply because you dont like the conversation

Walls of text isn't conversation. The last whole page of posts simply has nothing to do with the thread subject, which has been thoroughly addressed already.

Remember kids: concise is good.

Says that posts about survivability and group/class makeup in PVP has nothing to do with viability of using oil on people in specific situations.

Halrloprillalar

Ralathar44 wrote: »

snip

DK is not related to oil and there are plenty of threads on the subject of DK.

FWIW, I do agree that DKs outclass everyone due to a lot of their class synergy/abilities and survivability. But like you said yourself, it is getting addressed soon by the devs so why bring it up?

On the subject of oil: while I disagree about how 'game-breaking' the feet-pouring is, it's not why I suggested a thread close. I just don't see why this is turning into a class discussion.

Group make up and oil don't have much to do with each other. I have no idea why you think they do. And btw 'concise' means not long winded.

Ralathar44

Halrloprillalar wrote: »

Group make up and oil don't have much to do with each other. I have no idea why you think they do. And btw 'concise' means not long winded.

The fact that you think siege effectiveness on a group and group makeup have nothing whatsoever to do with each other shows how little credibility you have in this conversation.

But to give an extreme example:

Is an all Dragon Knight group significantly more likely to survive the resource tower oil trap than an all Night Blade group?

Think about that.

Infraction

Ralathar44 wrote: »

Halrloprillalar wrote: »

Group make up and oil don't have much to do with each other. I have no idea why you think they do. And btw 'concise' means not long winded.

The fact that you think siege effectiveness on a group and group makeup have nothing whatsoever to do with each other shows how little credibility you have in this conversation.

But to give an extreme example:

Is an all Dragon Knight group significantly more likely to survive the resource tower oil trap than an all Night Blade group?

Think about that.

Depends on the build. You can make a very strong tank nightblade if one wanted to run high mitigation very easily. You however do not have the containment capabilities that a dragon knight has. Templars also can be very tanky.

Dragonknights are not inherently more hanky than any other class they just have some extra tools that make it easier for them to accomplish. This really has nothing to do with the oil though. People aren't using oil because dragon knights are too strong they use it as an effective counter to superior numbers.

We can just agree to disagree though and move on. The devs will do what they feel is right and that will be that. I'll adjust and keep on keeping on.

Halrloprillalar

Ralathar44 wrote: »

Halrloprillalar wrote: »

Group make up and oil don't have much to do with each other. I have no idea why you think they do. And btw 'concise' means not long winded.

The fact that you think siege effectiveness on a group and group makeup have nothing whatsoever to do with each other shows how little credibility you have in this conversation.

But to give an extreme example:

Is an all Dragon Knight group significantly more likely to survive the resource tower oil trap than an all Night Blade group?

Think about that.

Any group can survive an oil trap if they are coordinating purges, heals, ults and aoe over voice. ANY GROUP.

Survivability is controlled by the player, then by build, then by class.

Do some classes have higher access to survivability builds? Yes. Does it only pertain to oil parties? No. You are cherrypicking your examples to fit a logical fallacy.

Eivar

A simple fix for the resource problem would be to have the flag inside the tower just like a keep, but smaller.

Ralathar44

So despite the extra red herrings it was a resounding YES, Dragon Knights would survive better.

Halrloprillalar wrote: »

Do some classes have higher access to survivability builds? Yes. Does it only pertain to oil parties? No. You are cherrypicking your examples to fit a logical fallacy.

Yes you are right some classes do have higher access to survivability builds. Some classes also have more survivability overall as well. The pinnacle of this currently is Dragon Knight which has significant defensive boosts and self healing in all 3 lines.

Infraction wrote: »

Dragonknights are not inherently more hanky than any other class they just have some extra tools that make it easier for them to accomplish.

No class has anything innately, all classes are just piles of tools that you have to actually choose and thus are not innate. It's nice word play, but a meaningless statement.

As you stated though Dragon Knights have extra tools to make them tanky. Also, there is no self armor buff in the game that compares to both the effect and efficiency of Spiked Armor. Likewise there is no self heal in the game that compares to the effect/efficiency or Dragon's Blood or Magma Armor (which is very strong even without the large self heal all).

They are also the only class that has a dedicated tanking tree including a full compliment of tanking passives, only 1 of requires more than 1 ability from that line on your bar to get full effect. For crying out loud one of the PASSIVE increases healing received by 12%. The requirement to keep this passive active? Hit spiked armor once every 15 seconds Or Dragon's Blood once every 18. So hard.


They also have the strongest blind in the game, which is not only a persistent area blind but a high value snare as well that can inflict disoriented or cause minor aoe damage.

Ralathar44

Let me once again lay out the LOGIC on why this is relevant.

• Dragon Knights are more survivable in both DPS builds and tank builds
• PVP has a very high number of Dragon Knights compared to other classes
• When the Dragon Knight nerfs hit Dragon Knight survivability will go down
• In turn this will lower the overall survivability of groups in PVP (since they have a heavy Dragon Knight bias atm)
• Due to this lowered overall survivability the overall balance of PVP will shift, including how viable many offensive and defensive strategies are
• Oil traps will be one of the many things affected by this.

Ralathar44

Eivar wrote: »

A simple fix for the resource problem would be to have the flag inside the tower just like a keep, but smaller.

While on the surface that's not a terrible idea this would greatly slow down keep takes and require enormous amount of resources for repairs, or result in razed towers that rarely get unrazed.