Reasons why NB DW/BOW stamina builds will never be competitive compared to other class archetypes

Kego

Assilma wrote: »

Some possible steps to remedy this:

1) Buff stamina AOEs, in terms of damage, and perhaps in the case of Arrow Spray, make it more like the Templar's long-range AOE from Dawn's Wrath, so it hits multiple targets instead of an area in front of you.

Can't understand this, too. Stamina AOE does as good as always only 50% of Base DMG as Magicka AOE does. Would really like to know what Zenimax thought about this? Expecially if we can see the most Magicka AOE has some nice Buffs or CC attached to that big hitting AOEs, what Stamina AOE suffers, as well.

2) reduce block mitigation (particularly against sneak attacks, to make it actually possible to do damage to a blocking tank with a sneak attack, which in my view it should be).

Maybe it would work, too, if the costs of blocking will be rised by around 500%, and Medium, as well as Heavy Armor gets more % of lowering that costs with at least 5 Items equiped. On that way, effective Blocking only works with Medium and Heavy Armor.

3) Make the damage of ultimate abilities scale to your highest stat out of magicka and stamina, not always magicka.

Comes with Update 3 in August.

4) take steps to either improve medium and heavy armour, or nerf light armour. Permanently ignoring 42% enemy spell resistance (from the last passive of light armour) is NOT balanced, considering that the last passive of medium gives you SPRINT SPEED.

This Passive should be removed completly. As Melee Fighter you have to Equip Skills that lowers Armor. Like Surprise Attack or Mark Target. Magicka User have the same Skills with Destro Line, etc.. If they want Spell pen. than they should slot those Skills.
This Passive could be replaced with something like: "After casting a spell get a 1% Chance per piece of casting the next Spell w/o Magicka costs.

MrMT

All I know is this: I spent most of my playtime as a stamina based NB, and have used all the stamina weapons, and both medium and heavy armor.

I recently switched to resto staff, magika and light armor and I am pretty much twice as powerful as I was before. This is no exaggeration. Pve in vet is a doddle, pvp is much much easier.

The disparity people are talking about is real. I gave up fighting and joined the masses. I wish I had done so a lot earlier.

I see no evidence that ZOS acknowledges quite how large the power mismatch is. Let's see with 1.3. It will take a lot.

smeeprocketnub19_ESO

Yea I agree with the OP, I have also experienced this stuff, and I respecced to not be stamina based.

I was doing vet 4mans recently, and I was running DW/bow, while using class skills, and I felt utterly useless. I felt like my skill was there, but my abilities were just lacking. It was very frustrating.

Also F Bolt Escape.

Assilma

To be clear, I don't think the problem is with Nightblade. Nightblade casters are really insane. The problem is with stamina vs. magicka builds, and this disproportionately affects night blades because stamina (and bow, dual wield, sneaking etc.) is the obvious play style for the Nightblade.

sajackson

ZOS have already confirmed that they are looking at buffing stamina based skill lines to bring then back in line with magika builds.

Vizier

Xnemesis wrote: »

They just need to either reward more stamina on gear or reduce the cost of stamina abilities. Please fix haste as well it does nothing and make the 22% damage reduction like 10% when using single target and then make it so it +2% reduction per additional enemy to a max of 20% so that it doesn't become op for AOE users who would spam power extraction. Its morph bypasses AoE cap to hit 9 players by design so I had to cap it at 20% to not make the ability complete crap.

No. they need to reward more stamina on gear and reduce the cost of stamina abilities for Rogue classes. And buff the stamina regen. Rogues should be as tireless with stamina abilities as mages are spamming magika abilities.

Nerf stealth for all non- rogue classes and place major penalties (not just movement) for stealth in heavy and moderate penalties for medium armor wearers.

Buff Shadow-cloak to 7-10 seconds

Level the attribute playing field and reduce health to 10 pts per skill point. We might actually see people putting points into other attributes.

Get rid of soft caps or at least raise them significantly.

GIVE the NB some LOVIN ZOS...

Galrukh

Í see this whole problem as more of a stamina vs magicka issue than a NB issue. Stamina is just subpar atm, there is no discussion about this.
Giving light armor users a 42% spellpenetration for free (meaning it doesnt take up a hotbar slot) is just a really, really bad idea.
ZOS should seriously nerf this trait and then either reduce the protection of light armor vs weapons or outright buff weapon damage, then maybe we would get closer
´
Oh and Nightblade is not a rogueclass, you have to get over that stereotype thinking. All classes currently suck when trying to play a stamina/weapon stealther, not just Nightblades.

Xnemesis

Our cloak should have a boost to health regen or a hot as well imo

Kego

Galrukh wrote: »

Giving light armor users a 42% spellpenetration for free (meaning it doesnt take up a hotbar slot) is just a really, really bad idea.

PvP wise, yes. PvE not valid. Cause Armor Penetration of 40% should be up around 100% thanks to Ransack Taunt Skill from SnB.

Looking at four Skills from Nightblade/DW/Bow:
(with 1.3 Softcaps)

Magicka: 2431
Stamina: 2431
SpellDMG: 131
Weap.DMG: 198

Surprise Attack Magicka Melee - Instant - 522 DMG
Rapid Strike Stamina Melee - 1.5 Sec. Duration - 864 DMG
Swallow Soul - magicka Range - Instant - 446 DMG
Venom Arrow - Stamina Range - Instant - 292 DMG (+536 DMG over 10 Sec)

To compare Surprise Attack and Swallow Soul with Rapid Strike, we can double the DMG, cause during the 1.5 Sec. window, you can perform two instant attacks.

Surprise Attack - 1044 DMG
Rapid Strike - 864 DMG
Swallow Soul - 892 DMG
Venom Arrow - 637 DMG (with one DoT Tick)

All Magicka Skills are superior to it's Stamina counterparts. And that is something, that I absolutly can not understand from a development point of view.

Why deal the Stamina Based Attacks always way less DMG than Magicka, but has to deal with sharing it's ressource to defensive mechanics? Another point, PRO Magicka DMG Builds are synergies. You can't build a Character without Magicka Skills. Cause Utility- or Defense wise you will need ~2 at least. But those skills ofcourse scales way better in an Magicka Only Build, cause there you have the needed Softcaps reached anyway.

It should have been obvious during Alpha Testing (!!!) that Stamina Skill would need to be more Powerful than it's Magicka Skills, more even against there Ranged Magicka Skills, to be anykind of viable.

Sotha_Sil

have you tried making an army of nightblades with bow's aoe equipped ? It would be fun to know if it's efficient.

Imo, this only way to fix this issue is by adding a 50/75% cost reduction of dodging/interrupting with 5 pieces medium armor eqquiped.

Same for blocking + add damage mitigation for heavy armor. (They can't move fast but they get resistance).

+ adding more powerful effects for stamina weapon aoes.

Fixed.

Kego

No, not fixed, as long as Magicka Skills are up for 20-40% more DMG on Singletarget.
I for myself give a *** on AOE, cause trash dies anyway. What matters is Solo DMG on Bosses in PvE. And even the Singletarget Magicka skills are dealing way more DMG than its Stamina "brothers".

Around 20% with Melee Magicka vs Melee Stamina
Up to 40% with Range Magicka vs Bows.

Nivzruo_ESO

Yea, stamina needs a buff or something.

Zorgon_The_Revenged

7.1k views and only 132 comments....well, 133 now. The creators of this game should be doing something about this issue.

sajackson

Zorgon_The_Revenged wrote: »

7.1k views and only 132 comments....well, 133 now. The creators of this game should be doing something about this issue.

They are, watch the video from quakecon.

khele23eb17_ESO

Galrukh wrote: »

Oh and Nightblade is not a rogueclass, you have to get over that stereotype thinking. All classes currently suck when trying to play a stamina/weapon stealther, not just Nightblades.

True but some suck more than others.

Cody

if LA has a 42% spell penetration, then HA should have 42% armor penetration, and medium armor should have a 42% reduction in rolling and CC breaks. at least in my opinion. that would KINDA solve it.(course 42% is ridiculous, and should be toned down, but yall get my point)

Kego

I think HA didn't got that Armor Passive cause 1H Shield has it. It is clear that ZOS indendet to have HA as Tank Armor, cause every Passive is only for Survival. With Ransack from 1H + Shild, you have a 100% Uptime of 40% Armor Penetration.

Besides, two Classes has a Skill that lowers Armor for 40% as well.

Nightblade - Surprise Attack
Dragon Knight - Burning Breath

Sorcerer and Templar has non of them but maybe wouln't rely that much on Phys. DMG anyway.

In the end, for PvE Raids, there should the 40% Spell penetration no issue, cause 40% Armor Reduction should be up as well.

CapuchinSeven

NookyZooky wrote: »

if LA has a 42% spell penetration, then HA should have 42% armor penetration, and medium armor should have a 42% reduction in rolling and CC breaks. at least in my opinion. that would KINDA solve it.(course 42% is ridiculous, and should be toned down, but yall get my point)

Yeah, or something along those lines. Something like LA gets spell penetration, MA gets skill penetration and HA gets resistance to penetration.

wooo all the penetrations!

Chubbaz

eliisra wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Most class issues in this game would be solved if people stopped treating the classes as fixed molds for how one is "supposed to play." Every class can fill every role equally well.

They can't. My sorcerer will never be able to:

Heal like a Templar
Tank and DPS like DK
Sneak gank people in PvP like a NB

We can all fill the same roles or achieve similar builds in theory, yes. But we do it with way less efficiency, depending on class. We all have our passives and class skills, making us more suitable for doing certain things.

To me, that's not 100% freedom to fill any role you like. Not when the guy next to me does it more effectively and with less effort, based on class.

This is total BS, Sorcerors are the best hands down, yes you can tank, yes you can heal, yes you can DPS. WHy have other classes when this one does EVERYTHING just right?

ArRashid

Bow NB needs 2 changes:

1) remake Poison Arrow OR Snipe into a finisher (higher damage the lower the enemy's HP is, like REVERSE SLASH), so bow gets an actual finisher and you won't be forced to switch weapons on bosses.

2) remake NB's Drain Power (or at least it's Power Extraction morph) from player-centered AoE (which is utterly useless for anyone but melee casters) to target-centered AoE. That will give NB archers both class-based ranged AoE skill AND a weapon damage buff comparable to Surge.

Problem solved.
Well... not exactly, there's still a problem with running out of stamina for dodging because you're dpsing, but that won't change till they move defensive moves to a separate resource bar..

Code2501

All this confusing mess of class vs weapon skills makes for a sore head.
Can't we just keep the discussion of NB's about actual NB class skills rather than complaints about DW/Bow skills shadowy disguised as NB rants?

There are some genuine issues with NB Class Skills, and too many bugs that still need fixing,
AND,
There are some genuine issues with most of the Weapon Skills and the stamina mechanic,
BUT,
They are two completely separate issues and posts like this just confuse the points for both.

Umeil

The problem with balancing the stam v magica issue at this stage is as follows

1st it took months for the problem to become acknowledged in the 1st place by the devs

2nd Magica got tweeked up for the first few fixes to game. Stam got kicked down

3rd It has taken what 5 months now and still no resemblance of an attempt to fix the issue, at this rate it would take 14-18 months to par the 2 out.

4th after 14-18 months Magica would then again be 2-3x more powerful than stam. so it just an endless loosing cycle for us stam players.

Magdalina

Hmmm, I'm stepping on thin ground here but I will try to put my 2 cents in. Just feel chatty:)

I'm not an NB and don't roll any NB alts - not because "OMG SORC OP" but because I'm generally not an alt person - I'm trying to get everything done with my one and only char, whom I chose to be a Sorc because I love summonning stuff.

Stamina and magicka builds clearly are unbalanced, I'll agree to that. A lot has been said about it, it's true.

And as a non NB, I can't exactly check the abilities that are being mentioned. However, I can tell you some of the best players I know are NB DW/bow. I don't do Trials and I'm generally not much for mini-maxing, I can't provide exact numbers and I won't argue they might not have highest DPS output in game, but Trials aside, pure DPS is not the most important thing there is, is it? I'm a healer and I enjoy vet dungeons, I've ran most of them with these NBs and they are amazing. Their DPS is fine(we get bosses/trash killed quickly. Does anything else really matter?), their surviveability is amazing, their magic stealthy drop-aggro thingie fills my heart with jealousy, they almost make me want to reroll an NB myself XD I can also tell you these people thoroughly enjoy their classes and have absolutely 0 intention of ever switching to bathrobe+stick builds.

I don't mean to tell anyone to L2P or claim things are totally balanced as they are right now, I just wanted to add a tiny bit of optimism here. Not everything is lost yet;)

bigzz03

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jetMNZiokes

To the OP. here you go. You say nightblades can't hold their own? watch this video...Sure it's not a stamina based build, but it just proves the point that every class is capable of doing what another class can, seeing as most of the abilities used in this type of game play are weapon based not class based.

Your also forgetting the most important skill...veil of blades...

if you want to compare class vs class make sure both classes tested use only class abilities, then see who wins

lathbury

While the above video was impressive it reinforced the op 's point when you post a vid of a dw/bow build doing that it will be a different story.

TomLukman

The facts is, as long as stamina is also used for blocking, rolling and sprinting the magicka builds will always be more useful, or at least more practical to play.

I play destro/destro nightblade and I like the DPS I do very much in both single or multi target bombing situations but I can understand why many people would prefer playing as a solo ganker style nightblade - which is the role that the class suggests. To be honest I started playing as a medium stamina bow build but around level 20 I just decided to switch because the AOE damage with destro/path of darkness was too good to miss.

kijima

The tide is slowly turning though, I has a respec last night and put some of it into stamina as I was running out far to quickly with a lot of bow usage and I gotta say, after the respec I was doing a LOT of damage.

Kego

You could always do a lot of DMG with Stamina Skills. The Problem of Stamina isn't that big in PvP, it is only in Raid PvE, cause that is the only Content in ESO where you need a high sustained DPS, what Stamina can't deliver atm..

tino.antoninieb17_ESO

I run stamina driven NB and using dw and bow. I started as stamina , shifted to magic ( very, very efficient but hate robes and sticks ) and again back to stamina. I went whole circle and in my opinion - magic nb is very good in pve and pvp . Stamina driven NB's are in this moment good just in pvp. In general ZOS is moving in right direction and Stamina NB's are getting stronger and stronger but still cant come close to magic NB in pve. If they continue with this pace in 3 month they will get there. In short 8 month period to shut down those two gaps ( class and stam/mag ) is way to long and ZOS is still paying it with subs.

Jaxom

tino.antoninieb17_ESO wrote: »

I run stamina driven NB and using dw and bow. I started as stamina , shifted to magic ( very, very efficient but hate robes and sticks ) and again back to stamina. I went whole circle and in my opinion - magic nb is very good in pve and pvp . Stamina driven NB's are in this moment good just in pvp. In general ZOS is moving in right direction and Stamina NB's are getting stronger and stronger but still cant come close to magic NB in pve. If they continue with this pace in 3 month they will get there. In short 8 month period to shut down those two gaps ( class and stam/mag ) is way to long and ZOS is still paying it with subs.

I've gone full circle as well. I'm back to stamina (Bow/DW) and I'm much happier. With the new softcaps, I'm running over 120 Stamina regen in combat per second. I'm actually rarely running out of Stamina while I spam my bow skills. A step in the right direction. I feel we can sustain a lot better now (under the right circumstances).

I'm leveling Haste now so I can get Focused attacks (another 40% Stamina recovery in combat). I feel I can break 150 Stamina regen in combat which will allow me to have never-ending Stamina without having to resort to Siphoning Attacks and it's subsequent damage reduction.