Reasons why NB DW/BOW stamina builds will never be competitive compared to other class archetypes

Gern_Verkheart

As has been stated before: the real problem with NB's is not their class (although that has some kinks in it), their class abilities are great, and deliver amazing single target DPS, but that right there is the problem: those are their class abilities, which means they use magicka.

The problem with NB's is the same problem with every other class: medium armor and melee weapon attacks are down right terrible.

You will never achieve good sustainable DPS with a stamina based build on any class, and your survive-ability in soloing veteran content is next to nill, because there is no stamina based AOE Crowd Control ability, and AOE CC is absolutely necessary in veteran content. Also, as was stated in the text wall: stamina based AOE damage abilities are all very weak, and high AOE damage is absolutely necessary in veteran group content.

If zenimax fixes medium armor and melee weapon skills, they will have fixed the nightblade class.

Doriangray

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Doriangray wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Doriangray wrote: »

@nerevarine1138
Stamina regen has a cap like all the other regens. Blood craze is the only weapon skill I use on my bar anyway. It's just more viable to rely on magicka based abilities since Stamina is used for many other things. I mean a cc break alone takes about 50% of your bar if you don't have a certain set bonus.
If you look at the trial leader-boards, you'll seldom see a nightblade. and that's factual information. " Fine DPS " doesn't mean anything. And like I mentioned about the whole " L2P" If your nightblade is so powerful as you put it, do the same thing that Dk is doing in the video . If you can't record the video, just invite me to the group so I watch how you die over and over. I'm a v11.
Can't wait to see till you solo all those elites with your "powerful" nightblade.

Holy crap! A dual-wield/bow DK soloed Craglorn?!?!?!?! And not just trash mobs?!?!?!

Oh, hang on a tick...

Obviously he did not solo a whole thing ...lol
I don't care what combination you use to get as far as he did, Whatever you want to. As long as you show me it's possible with night blade. Oh and please try to be as sarcastic as possible when you die on the first trash pull. It makes it more fun to watch

So you're ignoring the Nightblade video that shows a sword-and-board Nightblade soloing an entire VR dungeon, including bosses? And you're ignoring the fact that this thread is supposed to be about how a specific weapon combination is underpowered for this class only?

If you want to complain about how a weapon skill set is weak compared to other weapon skill sets, then don't make a thread about a specific class being underpowered. Otherwise, your point is completely nonsensical.

Link the video please. If it does exist. But if you're referring to a v10 soloing the v5 spindle clutch ... then don't bother and also pay attention how long he takes to kill a normal mob compared to a Dk. Nightblade is the weakest class in every role. Unless you're prepared to take up the challenge or provide factual information then refrain form commenting.

ruzlb16_ESO

Gern_Verkheart wrote: »

The problem with NB's is the same problem with every other class: medium armor and melee weapon attacks are down right terrible.

This.

NBs in particular are horribly exposed to the fact that DW is the worst weapon choice and medium is the worst armour choice, because the rogue-a-like class description suggests to players that they should pick those skill lines (Just as tanks are more likely to play DK heavy+sword and board, or sorcs are more likely to go full LA with a staff). The actual NB skill lines are very good (aside from the skills that are out-and-out broken), but like all class skills they are most effective when combined with full majicka and light armour - which is utterly counter-intuitive. I do not expect my stealthy assassin to *** about in robes, not least because it looks ridiculous. If there was LA the made you look like a ninja, then yeah. But it always makes you look like a wizard, making it even more counter intuitive...

DW skills aren't actually bad, but the tree is completely incoherent - the skills don't complement each other. There's not much in the way of flexibility either - the AOE is very poor, but the CC is equally bad, so you're just left with a bunch of single-target abilities which don't really match up to 2H. The Passives seem to have been written by someone who hadn't seen the actives - Ruffian in particular only works on enemies subject to effects that aren't caused by any skill in the tree, while others add bleeds that don't stack with other bleeds on the skills. Slaughter gives a desultory boost to <25% enemies... but other trees have proper executes that people will use instead.

The abilities in DW are generally poor. Twin Slashes is decent, but non-stacking DoT-reliant for most of it's damage output. Flurry's channel makes it weaker than spamming Twin Slashes, combined with overpriced (I quite literally went back to TS after trying Flurry). Whirlwind is the weakest PBAoE in the game (by miles) and also the least impressive execute - it might even be useful if DW had any other AOE capability so that multiple targets were regularly executable, but it doesn't, meaning it's best effect only comes into play from other people's AOEs. Sparks is a very strong contender for the worst CC in the game (single target only, incredibly short duration, and not even a proper CC effect, just misses). Even hidden blade is decidedly unimpressive considering it's depth in the tree (relatively short-range at 20m rather than 28; reasonable damage but nothing special, snare ancillary is a bit underwhelming). While the morphs are an improvement, they don't cover for the fact that this tree has no synergy - the abilities do not cover each others weaknesses.

Medium armour, meanwhile, has synergy but is let down by the fact that several of the skills genuinely are bad. The active is weaker then the other classes, and the passives contain too much junk (cheaper sprinting and rolling? REALLY?) and not enough awesome (stam regen bonus is too low, and the attack speed advantage is rubbish). The few advantages it offers work reasonably well with 2H, but that's because 2H is a good tree. With DW, it just highlights the weaknesses.

Lord_Draevan

I'm a Bow/Siphoning Medium Armor NB (3 of my 5 abilites are Bow), just got to regular Eastmarch, I haven't died once, not even gotten below 25%. I solo public dungeons and their bosses easily.
All this talk of Bow NBs/NBs in general being underpowered baffles me. Unless you're all referring to PvP/Vet zones/Craglorn only, which I haven't tried yet with my NB character, because in PvE I'm certainly not underpowered.

To clarify, since people don't seem to understand what I'm saying, I'm asking if the whole "NB is underpowered" thing refers to regular (i.e 1-50) PvE or Vet zones/Craglorn/PvP. You'd think "Unless you're all referring to PvP/Vet zones/Craglorn only" would get that point across, but I guess I put too much faith in people's intelligence being above that of the common housefly.

Oogly

Lord_Draevan wrote: »

just got to regular Eastmarch

/facepalm

Need moar posts like that one, srsly

Lord_Draevan

lindsie85b16_ESO wrote: »

Lord_Draevan wrote: »

just got to regular Eastmarch

/facepalm

Need moar posts like that one, srsly

Again: are you referring to Vet zones/PvP? I kinda clearly state that in my original post.

Lord_Draevan wrote: »

Unless you're all referring to PvP/Vet zones/Craglorn only,

Speaking of facepalm...

Oogly

Yea editing your post after my reply kinda fixes that for you ey. I kinda understand you being baffled when you post in a thread about the endgame state of a certain class. Completely validates everything you just said.

Not many of us give a damn how awesome NB's are in low level pve.

Lord_Draevan

lindsie85b16_ESO wrote: »

Yea editing your post after my reply kinda fixes that for you ey. I kinda understand you being baffled when you post in a thread about the endgame state of a certain class. Completely validates everything you just said.

Not many of us give a damn how awesome NB's are in low level pve.

Yes, I edited my post. I spelled Vet zone "Vte zone". Pardon me for wanting to have proper spelling

Though you did answer my question about whether people are talking about regular PvE or Vet zone/PvP/Craglorn. You could've just said that, but clearly you're spoiling for an argument.

lindsie85b16_ESO wrote: »

I kinda understand you being baffled when you post in a thread about the endgame state of a certain class.

OP never once mentions "endgame" or "Veteran zones" in the post. So yes, I inquired whether he was referring to Vet or regular PvE. Though he does mention Craglorn and trials, I wanted to make sure.

nez

Doriangray wrote: »

I have taken this from Reddit. I'm only copying it here with the purpose of informing future players since I agree with the OP...considering that nightblade archetype skill...dark cloak.. is still bugged two months after into the release of the game, you can assume how bugged this class really is. I feel really disappointed considering I did a 6 month sub. I hate to be a burden to my guild mates after putting so much effort into my Nightblade. After reading this if you still have any doubts, refer to this thread > http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/dk-solos-craglorn/ ... I dare you to the same thing this dk is doing with a nightblade or even just come close to what he is doing for that matter before shouting " L2P "... lol.

http://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/26ozbw/reasons_why_nb_dwbow_stamina_builds_will_never_be/
Here's the OP's opinion:
Veteran Rank 12 Night Blade here. Close to max gear for Dual Wield NB bow (PVP V12 Dominion Bow, Hundings rage set , Nights silence set, Night mother set , epic/legendary etc. At least 54% weapon critical for bow and dw. I know this class inside out (in this stamina department at least).
When I chose this class I wanted to Dual wield/bow and I've stuck to it because that's how I see NB's intended to play and how I want to play it. I've always tried to push it to the maximum efficiency even when I know that ill never beat a casters DPS. Done everything in this game except for fourth boss AA trial and the entire Hel Ra.This will be a long post. If anyone is interested in what the Maximum effectiveness of a Dual wield/BOW DPS NB can achieve in a group dungeon or trials compared to other classes then read on.
Heres a small class breakdown of what I've seen in the game regarding PVE in the trials and dungeons in Craglorn.
Sorcerer- Designed to be used as casters can wear light armor and be competitive by achieving dps only second to fire destro dk and OP banner. Their class serves a purpose.
Dragonknight- Designed to be tanky/some dps but completely OP at the moment with best mitagation sustain and DPS by far. No need to say more, although I rather ESO not nerf them and just balances classes to their level. Their class obviously serves a purpose and in trials (almost necessary.)
Templar- Designed to be healers/tanky. Don't know too much about temp skills but they do their job well in PVE trials from what I've seen. Their class serves a purpose as well.
Nightblades- Designed to be Dual wield/bow users with high single target sustained damage. Does not compare to the Single target damage of sorc's caster sustainable dps as a NB bow user or DW user. This class serves no purpose if you play as dual wield/bow in groups because other classes can DPS better. If I wanted to play a caster DPS I would have rolled a sorc. Even though I can match or out DPS really casual Sorcs and Dks, for the amount of time, effort, and theory crafting that I put into my Nightblade, I honestly think I should be doing way more especially since NB was designed to be played like this.
Reasons why NB Stamina builds will never beat sorc casters or any caster's DPS even when pushed to the maximum with gear and skill selection.
Bow DPS- You can only use bows to maximum effectiveness if you are at max range while damaging enemy because you want that bow passive that gives you damage bonus when at max range. Even at max range, the DPS is still lower than sorcs because magicka abilities do a crap ton more damage per cast. The problem with these trials is alot of the times the enemies would be in your face and thats when your DPS takes a hit. If you weapon swap, thats already a huge decrease in DPS on the target because weapon swap although it has gotten better, is still not instantaneous like it should be and really the delay is not worth it to weapon swap when getting an enemy down RIGHT NOW is crucial for the survivability of the group. A class like sorcs on the other hand, do the same sustainable damage no matter what range they are and that DPS is better than what NBs can achieve with bow at max range.
Dual Wield DPS- Dual wield single target DPS is really not great for hard dungeons especially when you factor in the number of bosses or enemies that have to be downed from RANGE. I use dual wield for my AOE skills like steel tornado/ power extraction. Also for craglorn, if your running as DPS in your group and you dont have decent AOE spammable spell, you might as well just consider yourself a complete burden and waste of a party slot because all trash requires high AOE Damage.
Siphoning Strikes- I hate and love this skill. IMO this is one of the best NB abilities in the game as it allows you to have very high sustain on magicka and stamina and this is especially important for stamina based builds because you need to spam stamina abilities as well as do things like dodge roll and cc break. I hate this skill because it requires a sacrifice of 22% of my weapon damage and spell power in order for it to be used. Why is the damage nerf so high? Especially since NB's in general are already lacking in the DPS department compared to other classes. But I must use it for long Boss fights because 0 stamina= crap DPS.
Haste- On paper, this skill sounds like one of the best abilities weapon users could have in the game and is one of the reasons that drew me into choosing NBs because I like to attack as fast as possible in RPGs. But to achieve maximum DPS in this game you have to use basic attacks while animation canceling with weapon skills like venom arrow to shoot 2 arrows in a second. I don't even know even if they fixed this skill that it would give me any noticeable increase because of the way DPS is achieved in this game by animation canceling. So even after this skill is fixed this skill might be completely useless. Sorcs on the other hand get a skill like Surge that gives them something like +90 weapon damage for 30 seconds allowing them to achieve the highest weapon damage possible in the game for Single Target stamina abilities as well. So please explain to me why Sorcerers that are already the best casters can also achieve the highest possible weapon damage for single target( don't count power extraction) when NB's must be hit with a -22% weapon damage toggle in order to do any real sustainable dps with Stamina abilities.
Mark Target- Reduces enemy armor and spell resistance by 75% but also reduces your own armor and spell resist by the same amount. Again another example of a skill for night blade that has the potential to be amazing like siphoning strikes but comes at a huge drawback and not a great advantage considering mobs dont have high armor. Sorcs surge and Dk molten weapons increase their weapon damage with no drawbacks and even pass it on to the entire group while Mark Target can only be seen by the NB caster and only benefit the NB caster who does the worst DPS anyway.
PVP(off topic)- Small rant on PVP:
In a huge open enviroment like Cyrodill, really there is nothing comparable to the ability Bolt Escape. This ability might not be that powerful in a small enclosed area but we are in a huuuuge area where you can blink 20 miles away in a second to escape from danger and regenerate all your resources to reengage and destroy your enemy in an instant and rinse repeat especially with the burst potential of sorcs. Sorcs argue that they are squishy light armor so they need this but from what I've seen veteran 12 light armor sorcs with 3k+ hp are just as tanky as anyone else and they have bolt escape...Compared to NBs that have a 2.9 second invisibility and even if you spammed it, is not really comparable to instantly moving 20 miles away with the speed of bolt escape. IMO they need to buff path of darkness to give us at least 50% movespeed and NOT ONLY ON THE EFFING TINY PATH but ALWAYS for like 10-20 seconds. One of the biggest annoyances in Cyrodill is that it feels like a walking simulator even if you have a fast horse the area is so big and you can't always teleport to keeps. I'm not sure why only sorcs are able to have this huge advantage compared to other classes to just generally enjoy the gameplay of cyrodill much more.Especially if you roll with a group of sorcs and you have like 1 or 2 members that aren't sorcs, you cant catch up to them and you feel like you are dragging them down because you can be as fast as them.
TLDR- At the current state of the game NB stamina builds ( the way NB's were mainly designed to be played IMO) will never be competitive compared to casters because:
-Bow does Crap DPS at close range, DW does crap DPS at any range, and no DPS when you have to run around.- -Caster do the same sustainable DPS with 1 hotbar at ANY range. -Magicka abilities do way more damage then stamina -Our best resource sustain ability siphoning strikes reduces our weapon damage by 22%. -Haste even when fixed may not do anything at all. To do to highest DPS in this game you need to achieve it by animation canceling. -Sorc's achieve way higher weapon damage then NBs with Surge. -Critical strike passive and others not working (not entirely sure) - Mark Target 75% armor reduction isnt a big deal because mobs don't have that much armor and it doesnt give you a big increase.
Offtopic - PVPing is much less enjoyable do to huge landscape unless you are a high level sorc with bolt escape. Running with a group of sorcs you feel like you are a slug compared to them and if you can't travel together efficiently as a group you feel like a burden.
I've spent alot of time on this game to get to V12 and have close to max gear but one thing I'm not going to do in this game is to re-roll a sorc or DK or play a caster NB with resto staff. If the next patch does not buff NB DW/BOW DPS builds to the level of a Sorc, DK or caster I'm unsubscribing."

Thats exactly my thoughts, its just so *** my thoughts! I bet i could do better with class design even if i was high like *** lol.

Oogly

Lord_Draevan wrote: »

Snip

Im not spoiling for an argument, just stop. All I saw was yet another "NB is fine cuz i pwn in lowlvl"

Everything you wanted to know was pretty obvious and dont bother being petty about your edit. I had your original post on my screen.

Why on earth would the NB community be so depressed over low lvl stuff? It's what happens after that that matters.

Im glad you're having fun lvling up though, treasure it.

Lord_Draevan

lindsie85b16_ESO wrote: »

Lord_Draevan wrote: »

Snip

Im not spoiling for an argument, just stop. All I saw was yet another "NB is fine cuz i pwn in lowlvl"

Everything you wanted to know was pretty obvious and dont bother being petty about your edit. I had your original post on my screen.

Why on earth would the NB community be so depressed over low lvl stuff? It's what happens after that that matters.

Im glad you're having fun lvling up though, treasure it.

I wasn't saying "NB is fine cuz i pwn in lowlvl". I was asking if people were referring to regular PvE or endgame, since I've seen threads where Templars complain about regular PvE, not just endgame.
It was a simple question, and the way you responded is very easy to view as spoiling for a fight, since it didn't adress the question whatsoever and simply insulted me.

Oogly

Lord_Draevan wrote: »

I wasn't saying "NB is fine cuz i pwn in lowlvl". I was asking if people were referring to regular PvE or endgame, since I see plenty of threads where Templars complain about regular PvE, not just endgame.
It was a simple question, and the way you responded is very easy to view as spoiling for a fight, since it didn't adress the question whatsoever and simply insulted me.

Edit: I lost interest. Lets hold hands and sing together.

Lord_Draevan

lindsie85b16_ESO wrote: »

Where's the insult? Jesus.

"/facepalm

Need moar posts like that one, srsly"

^That's an insult. Not a terrible one, but it's still an insult and had utterly nothing to do with the simple question I asked.

lindsie85b16_ESO wrote: »

Glad you now know what everyone is so unhappy about then. I appologise for assuming you knew what was going on with NB's.

I didn't know. It's hard to notice the "NBs are underpowered" posts through the haze of "Nerf DK" , "Nerf Bolt Escape" and "Nerf Vamps" that've dominated the forums since launch.

poodlemasterb16_ESO

TL:DR

It's pretty simple. A Night Blade is an assassin. Not a front line fighter. If you built one to fight in large groups in the wars you made a fundamental mistake.

They are for ganking support, cutting down riders returning to battle is a fine example.

An NB should be in and out. They do put out serious short term damage done right and can kill single things very well. Then they should be gone. They do not do well against groups of opponents in both P and E. They require more pure skill to play than any other class because of their purpose.

I hope Zenimax does not bow to the howls, that's how they talk eh', of rage, and keeps the NB for what it is intended for.

hk11

Nice article

Gern_Verkheart

poodlemasterb16_ESO wrote: »

TL:DR

It's pretty simple. A Night Blade is an assassin. Not a front line fighter. If you built one to fight in large groups in the wars you made a fundamental mistake.

They are for ganking support, cutting down riders returning to battle is a fine example.

An NB should be in and out. They do put out serious short term damage done right and can kill single things very well. Then they should be gone. They do not do well against groups of opponents in both P and E. They require more pure skill to play than any other class because of their purpose.

I hope Zenimax does not bow to the howls, that's how they talk eh', of rage, and keeps the NB for what it is intended for.

That's all fine and dandy, except that in higher level vet zones you have to solo groups of mobs in order to progress. And you cannot do that with a stamina build, not without expending a great deal more effort than it takes to just throw on some light armor and use class abilities exclusively.

Not to mention that in vet group dungeons you need all DPS'ers to have good AOE damage, or else your group is going to fail. And any class with a stamina build is not going to be able to deliver that.

subecsanur

Xnemesis wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

I have none of his issues with dual-wield/bow Nightblades, but I do have a lot of issues with his inability to understand how classes work in this game.

No class is intended to fill a specific role. None of them. Nightblades aren't "built" for dual-wield/bow any more than Dragonknights are. Sorcerers aren't supposed to be lightly armored casters. They can be, but they don't have to.

Most class issues in this game would be solved if people stopped treating the classes as fixed molds for how one is "supposed to play." Every class can fill every role equally well.

I agree all builds should be viable and I love that I have seen heavy armor wearing 2-handed sword carrying sorcs. The problem is with making the complete opposite of what a class is generally seen as the best option. If they wanted to not have classes then they should have made all the skill lines from all four classes available to all players so that they could mix and match. You cant define a class then say you have no definition. Bottom line is they screwed up. I love the game I am just curious as to what they plan on doing to fix it. I block, roll, sprint, and stealth. These all cost stamina on a non fixed amount. They are percent based. We are getting hammered on our stam pool which leaves almost nothing left for abilities.... hope you understand a little better now why people are upset.

And if players really are allowed to venture in options to make a playable character and play whatever then they should have also allowed a free respec or something. If something appears to be one thing and it wasn't but only to have found out thru trying why penalize one and corner them into that hole even more?

subecsanur

ShintaiDK wrote: »

Everytime a player picks a stamina based ability for damage, there is laughter heard from the Zenimax office.

More like a snicker or sinister laugh! Another one fell into the trap!

Anastasia

Turelus wrote: »

I will admit I didn't read the wall of text so I need to ask.
Does that wall at any point address how things could be made better or improved or is the entire thing just "waaaa not as good as other fix this!!!" ?

---

Although there are certainly issues that need to be addressed and that Zeni has current committed plans to do, that op does put in a friendly lil tip Turelus:

"To do to highest DPS in this game you need to achieve it by animation canceling."

---

I don't even...
Yes, I know there are techniques which competitive players like to use to get/squeeze out that min/max build. But when I actually SEE that in a discussion about fixing bugs and bringing some true class balance, I get a bit of a headache and mostly all I see is a neon sidetracking banner that says:
"You MUST be able to bring your dps to the utmost zenith by ANIMATION CANCELING, and on a NB you can't do that as effectively as a Sorc etc..." *Blinks...I do not believe the devs care a whit about whether all four of the main archtype classes are able to effectively cancel animation/piggyback the next skill - THAT IS PLAYER CREATED CONTENT. Its not Zeni's responsibility heh.

That is not what the o-p said, but it sure muddies up his post.

BUT, I do appreciate all the folks who have spent dedicated time and effort on their NB's and given input to Zenimax staff so that the important data is available.
I'm hoping the devs DO take into consideration the reasons why a stam build can't compete fairly with a magika one.
*Grumbles and waits.

AltusVenifus

Nightblade tanks are really good, Nightblade healers are really good, all because of resource management. This doesn't translate to PVP because the fights are so quick. I think it is the nature of the class. Not sure what they can do about making us more competitive in PVP. Maybe add more group buffs to increase party damage and fix the stealth mechanic, so it is useful to use in a zerg battle.

Phantorang

A DK only using DW/Bow wont do it any better than an NB, using Class specific abilities though, the DK will crush us Temps and NBs every single time.

THats what really needs buffing, the CLASS SPECIFIC ABILITIES, buff sta based stuff too, but never to the point where sta abilities are considered more powerful than class abilities. In combination with class abilities, yes, if not, NO

Nooblet

Sorry but NB are fine in PvP. Haven't seen anyone able to burst as much as NB.

If I'm caught from a NB, and there's any delay from cc break, I'm dead before the animation is done.

Lets just make it so NB can 1shot anyone from stealth because some people want to play underpowered weapon specs.

damfatcow

I'm glad my post is getting so much coverage. I'm having more fun on reddit and eso forums than on my v12 nightblade lol.

Phantorang

damfatcow wrote: »

I'm glad my post is getting so much coverage. I'm having more fun on reddit and eso forums than on my v12 nightblade lol.

Im spending more and more time in the forums for some reason too, although my char is a Templar.

Teroh

Read part of it waste of a read.

OP has a strict set of rules each class has to play by and if they are not effective in that role its broken.

His idea that NB are designed to be DW/BOW leads me to believe he is just ranting with no idea of how the game is..

Doriangray

Yeah, same here, I still need like 50% to v12 but I really lack the motivation for it.

Doriangray

Teroh wrote: »

Read part of it waste of a read.

OP has a strict set of rules each class has to play by and if they are not effective in that role its broken.

His idea that NB are designed to be DW/BOW leads me to believe he is just ranting with no idea of how the game is..

Well, you obviously don't know anything about Nightblade, so, I don't see how anybody could possibly care about your opinion anyway .

PBpsy

Nightblades can do whatever they want in solo PVE up to VR10. I played my nb as a destro staff user ,a stealth assassin ,as a tank they all can cut it. I agree however that weapon line skills are kind of lackluster but the NB has plenty of class skilles to make any type of role possible to a certain extent.

The problem is only in group play in VR private dungeons and Craglorn. Only Tanks and restoration staff users are a little well of. This is because bosses especially in trials are just big dps checks .You need high sustained dps and NB usually can't make the cut. We can burst just fine but when do we get that occasion. We can also turtle and do 250-300dps for hours but it's to little

The biggest reason is that our main resource management skill while great on paper kind of sucks but is still essential for many builds.
I am talking about siphoning attacks.
-it is a toggle (actually 2)
-it is a huge debuff. HUGE but still the best option for sustain
-it requires hits on targets.
-I am fairly sure that the actual return per hit is not 4% M/S

On the other side of the fence we have Green Dragon's blood , inhale Draw Essence and Battle Roar.. gg

damfatcow

Teroh wrote: »

Read part of it waste of a read.

OP has a strict set of rules each class has to play by and if they are not effective in that role its broken.

His idea that NB are designed to be DW/BOW leads me to believe he is just ranting with no idea of how the game is..

Lol. Alrite Ill try to sum up my main arguments. I never argued that I wasn't a viable dw/bow NB player. I can even out DPS casual sorcs and DKS. But once you match the DW/BOW NB archetype against Sorc Caster Archetype and the DK Fire Mage at its best, the difference is astronomical.

In craglorn trials single target DPS wise, 1 sorc is almost double the value of 1 NB weapon user due to the fact sorcs can do massive sustainable ranged dps with casting. In some cases 1 well built DK pyro mage is worth 3-4 NB weapon users.

Why would I want to wield a staff on my NB just so I can pretend to be a sorc?I can build a resto/destro NB and do more DPS than I am currently but whats the point of that? That is not why I built a NB and I still wouldn't do as much as a sorc or DK. Please don't tell me to go be a healer either.

Most of our highest DPS class skills are based off weapon critical. There are morphs like focused attacks to regen combat stamina by 40 percent, refreshing shadows to regen stamina, Increase critical chance per ability slotted. There is obvious intentions to make this class a weapon based DPSer viable but ZOS is holding back for some reason.

The issue is not only weapon abilities not doing enough damage. Out of all the classes, NBs have the worst buffs to weapon based builds compared to other classes. Skills like mark target that screw you over more than you screw your enemy. Siphoning attacks that regen your resources at the cost of reduced damage. Haste that actually does nothing at all because you need to animation cancel anyway. Power extraction/sap essence that is only effective in aoe situations. Sorcs and DKs get surge and molten weapons that has no drawbacks and can be passed to group members as well.

I can't help get the feeling that in pvp if i replaced my dark cloak with bolt escape, and Mark Target with Surge, I would be way more effective.

So if NBs are meant to be weaker Weapon users and Staff users than other classes then what is the point of playing NB?

nerevarine1138

Doriangray wrote: »

Teroh wrote: »

Read part of it waste of a read.

OP has a strict set of rules each class has to play by and if they are not effective in that role its broken.

His idea that NB are designed to be DW/BOW leads me to believe he is just ranting with no idea of how the game is..

Well, you obviously don't know anything about Nightblade, so, I don't see how anybody could possibly care about your opinion anyway .

So Nightblades are designed for dual-wield/bow.

Do. Tell.