Reasons why NB DW/BOW stamina builds will never be competitive compared to other class archetypes

Mehsive

I like the idea of Dagus' to created a separate weapon resource, maybe something like "Power", sounds lame i know, but if realistically you want to get every bit of DPS out of a stamina build, yet evasive manoeuvres cost 20% of your primary resource, which you do alot - you're gonna lose a fair bit of potential damage.

keep stamina for sprinting, evasive manoeuvres and blocking, but i reckon if they ever plan to break the Staff nightmare that we're constantly in, they are going to have to firstly, make ranged the less desirable option in some fights, make a melee friendly encounter for once! most boss fights i have to spend 75% of the time away from the boss because of insta AoE mechanics that ranged don't have to worry about.

Oh, also, come on make some class "spells" cost "power" if you're going to split this up, how the hell does basically a backstab cost me magicka if i'm wielding daggers?

Imagine if the shoe was on the other foot, and all sprinting, rolls, blocks etc cost magicka? i think the amount of Melee/stamina build users would increase! it's an unnecessary stumbling block for what at the end of the day is fantasy combat, of course people want to hack and slash people to bits with pointy sticks and flying physical projectiles!

wafcatb14_ESO

This Night blade does pretty good as BOW/ DW and BOW / 2 H


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8krLrYX2ugo


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfBsHLBrkZg

Artis

idk how it's related to the PvE-discussion forum.

Cogo

dr_zed wrote: »

Why would anyone use bow with DW, that's the stupidest choise you can ever make. Bow and DW do exactly the same things:
- Single target damage skill with a dot.
- aoe skill in a cone pattern that snares
- Circle aoe damage skill
- Single target high damage skill that needs to be casted.

They are almost the same skill line, the only difference is bow has range and dw has damage. It's retardedly redundant to have both.

It's much more useful to combine bow with 2H or 1H and Shield.

Um, I guess I am one of what you call *bad name* for when I reached high enough with my main. A nightblade with Dual wield and Bow as second is what I want to try.

You also claim what would be the most useful? How do you know?
The freedome to pick whatever skills you want is because you can build your character so its suits YOU.

I get a feeling you are talking in math terms and what skills that both these weapons have.

The whole CORE idea with ESO is to build your char so it suits you.

I highly doubt there is a "best" build. I do not count skills that are overpowered in some way. There must be over 1000 different builds you can do.

Your statement that anyone who would choose Dual wield and Bow is *bad word*, not only rude, but goes against what ESO is about. Choices.

So WHAT if a choice is "bad", its the player choice. And maybe for that player its the "right" choice.

Jeremy_gelber_ESO

Cogo wrote: »

So WHAT if a choice is "bad", its the player choice. And maybe for that player its the "right" choice.

and as long as your content to solo pve (slowly) and zerg pvp you'll be fine.

Nicko_Lps

Nyswar wrote: »

P.S. My Nightblade does fine DPS in groups

400? 500? c'mon..

The dps nightblades have is before 400 and 500...but that stays between me and you..

dont tell the other please.

maximilianianis

well go play as NB full purple you cant kill 3 4 mobs in craglorn and your DPS in trials is like 400 when a DK or sorcerer make 900 + ty eso keep it go this way in after 30 days i delete this game ... i cant play V6-v10 becase bugs cadwell silver and now after i get v12 in crag i see i am usless with full purple gear i cant hit 900 + dps as nb never ..ty eso i hope this game will be F2P becaseu i dont waste my money for unfinished games and no balnce at all .....if a class make double dmg then other you havea problem ....

Enesse

Night blade dw+bow here too, yeah I feel your pain. Hopefully they'll adjust how stamina based builds are though, maybe that'll help a bit.

Artis

yeah, nightblade's dps is funny. especially, using physical damage weapons.

SBR_QuorTek

I just completed it all asa DW/Bow NB

Sleepydan

Nb dw does work, as a single target or aoe bar.

Volcanic rune, sap essence, steel tornado. Shadowy disguise leeching strikes.

I won't even bother with single target. Go gettem tiger.

Aoifesan

Sleepydan wrote: »

Nb dw does work, as a single target or aoe bar.

Volcanic rune, sap essence, steel tornado. Shadowy disguise leeching strikes.

I won't even bother with single target. Go gettem tiger.

You don't even need the shadowy disguise. So long as you have Siphoning strikes. Every single hit has a chance to return resources to you, except health. It's wondrous.

Cogo

Jeremy_gelber_ESO wrote: »

Cogo wrote: »

So WHAT if a choice is "bad", its the player choice. And maybe for that player its the "right" choice.

and as long as your content to solo pve (slowly) and zerg pvp you'll be fine.

I very rarely solo. I like the solo quests and questlines, but otherwise I group a lot. Not just dungeons, but group around, meeting people. Its more fun then playing alone. For me at least.

I am level 47 now, DK tank, and I have started to notice how harder it gets...even in zones lower the Graglorn.

I LOVE IT!!!! For the first time, I am considering respecing a bit, to be able to do more damage AND tank.....as it is now, I can tank....but having problem killing mobs cause of my low damage.

Love this game......it really makes me constantly consider how to do things. I cant just do my rotation and that it.....

When I made it up to a few VET levels....I will make my nightblade Dual wield/Bow, OR a healer....I havnt decided yet.

On another subject. I SUCK at pvp. Sure, I use catapults and tag along in groups. Defend keeps. That I can do. But if I travel....I get instantly killed if I meet any player.

This is a serious question, but I never liked PvP. But Cyrodiil made me interested. Can anyone give me any tips on PvP, player vs player? Cause every time I face other players, they stun/kill me instantly.

Call me noob if you like, because I AM a pvp noob. I got interested in PvP now and would like some tips. Feel free to message me.

james_tim

Its not only Nightblades with a problem with stamina builds. It's all classes. The reason why stamina builds are so low compared to other classes, is because of abilities like force siphon keeping magicka based dps able to substain longer casting rotations.

alexj4596b14_ESO

All I have too say is your not doing it right, magic
Builds can achieve much too high dps which is why they are being adjusted vary slowly while fixing other problems in the game, by the time ZoS is done magic build will be brought down too stamina dps level. Once the passives are fixed for NB they will have the highest amount of damage (single target)in game BAR NONE let them fix crap! At lvl 14 I'm doing 200 dps on avarge on boss fights with dw/bow. Go whine some ware else.



Also raising stamina soft cap too 3k and increasing the vales gained from glifs and making it so instead of 100=11% damage increase too melee weapons make it 200. Problem solved everyone

Wifeaggro13

Doriangray wrote: »

I have taken this from Reddit. I'm only copying it here with the purpose of informing future players since I agree with the OP...considering that nightblade archetype skill...dark cloak.. is still bugged two months after into the release of the game, you can assume how bugged this class really is. I feel really disappointed considering I did a 6 month sub. I hate to be a burden to my guild mates after putting so much effort into my Nightblade. After reading this if you still have any doubts, refer to this thread > http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/dk-solos-craglorn/ ... I dare you to the same thing this dk is doing with a nightblade or even just come close to what he is doing for that matter before shouting " L2P "... lol.

http://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/26ozbw/reasons_why_nb_dwbow_stamina_builds_will_never_be/
Here's the OP's opinion:
Veteran Rank 12 Night Blade here. Close to max gear for Dual Wield NB bow (PVP V12 Dominion Bow, Hundings rage set , Nights silence set, Night mother set , epic/legendary etc. At least 54% weapon critical for bow and dw. I know this class inside out (in this stamina department at least).
When I chose this class I wanted to Dual wield/bow and I've stuck to it because that's how I see NB's intended to play and how I want to play it. I've always tried to push it to the maximum efficiency even when I know that ill never beat a casters DPS. Done everything in this game except for fourth boss AA trial and the entire Hel Ra.This will be a long post. If anyone is interested in what the Maximum effectiveness of a Dual wield/BOW DPS NB can achieve in a group dungeon or trials compared to other classes then read on.
Heres a small class breakdown of what I've seen in the game regarding PVE in the trials and dungeons in Craglorn.
Sorcerer- Designed to be used as casters can wear light armor and be competitive by achieving dps only second to fire destro dk and OP banner. Their class serves a purpose.
Dragonknight- Designed to be tanky/some dps but completely OP at the moment with best mitagation sustain and DPS by far. No need to say more, although I rather ESO not nerf them and just balances classes to their level. Their class obviously serves a purpose and in trials (almost necessary.)
Templar- Designed to be healers/tanky. Don't know too much about temp skills but they do their job well in PVE trials from what I've seen. Their class serves a purpose as well.
Nightblades- Designed to be Dual wield/bow users with high single target sustained damage. Does not compare to the Single target damage of sorc's caster sustainable dps as a NB bow user or DW user. This class serves no purpose if you play as dual wield/bow in groups because other classes can DPS better. If I wanted to play a caster DPS I would have rolled a sorc. Even though I can match or out DPS really casual Sorcs and Dks, for the amount of time, effort, and theory crafting that I put into my Nightblade, I honestly think I should be doing way more especially since NB was designed to be played like this.
Reasons why NB Stamina builds will never beat sorc casters or any caster's DPS even when pushed to the maximum with gear and skill selection.
Bow DPS- You can only use bows to maximum effectiveness if you are at max range while damaging enemy because you want that bow passive that gives you damage bonus when at max range. Even at max range, the DPS is still lower than sorcs because magicka abilities do a crap ton more damage per cast. The problem with these trials is alot of the times the enemies would be in your face and thats when your DPS takes a hit. If you weapon swap, thats already a huge decrease in DPS on the target because weapon swap although it has gotten better, is still not instantaneous like it should be and really the delay is not worth it to weapon swap when getting an enemy down RIGHT NOW is crucial for the survivability of the group. A class like sorcs on the other hand, do the same sustainable damage no matter what range they are and that DPS is better than what NBs can achieve with bow at max range.
Dual Wield DPS- Dual wield single target DPS is really not great for hard dungeons especially when you factor in the number of bosses or enemies that have to be downed from RANGE. I use dual wield for my AOE skills like steel tornado/ power extraction. Also for craglorn, if your running as DPS in your group and you dont have decent AOE spammable spell, you might as well just consider yourself a complete burden and waste of a party slot because all trash requires high AOE Damage.
Siphoning Strikes- I hate and love this skill. IMO this is one of the best NB abilities in the game as it allows you to have very high sustain on magicka and stamina and this is especially important for stamina based builds because you need to spam stamina abilities as well as do things like dodge roll and cc break. I hate this skill because it requires a sacrifice of 22% of my weapon damage and spell power in order for it to be used. Why is the damage nerf so high? Especially since NB's in general are already lacking in the DPS department compared to other classes. But I must use it for long Boss fights because 0 stamina= crap DPS.
Haste- On paper, this skill sounds like one of the best abilities weapon users could have in the game and is one of the reasons that drew me into choosing NBs because I like to attack as fast as possible in RPGs. But to achieve maximum DPS in this game you have to use basic attacks while animation canceling with weapon skills like venom arrow to shoot 2 arrows in a second. I don't even know even if they fixed this skill that it would give me any noticeable increase because of the way DPS is achieved in this game by animation canceling. So even after this skill is fixed this skill might be completely useless. Sorcs on the other hand get a skill like Surge that gives them something like +90 weapon damage for 30 seconds allowing them to achieve the highest weapon damage possible in the game for Single Target stamina abilities as well. So please explain to me why Sorcerers that are already the best casters can also achieve the highest possible weapon damage for single target( don't count power extraction) when NB's must be hit with a -22% weapon damage toggle in order to do any real sustainable dps with Stamina abilities.
Mark Target- Reduces enemy armor and spell resistance by 75% but also reduces your own armor and spell resist by the same amount. Again another example of a skill for night blade that has the potential to be amazing like siphoning strikes but comes at a huge drawback and not a great advantage considering mobs dont have high armor. Sorcs surge and Dk molten weapons increase their weapon damage with no drawbacks and even pass it on to the entire group while Mark Target can only be seen by the NB caster and only benefit the NB caster who does the worst DPS anyway.
PVP(off topic)- Small rant on PVP:
In a huge open enviroment like Cyrodill, really there is nothing comparable to the ability Bolt Escape. This ability might not be that powerful in a small enclosed area but we are in a huuuuge area where you can blink 20 miles away in a second to escape from danger and regenerate all your resources to reengage and destroy your enemy in an instant and rinse repeat especially with the burst potential of sorcs. Sorcs argue that they are squishy light armor so they need this but from what I've seen veteran 12 light armor sorcs with 3k+ hp are just as tanky as anyone else and they have bolt escape...Compared to NBs that have a 2.9 second invisibility and even if you spammed it, is not really comparable to instantly moving 20 miles away with the speed of bolt escape. IMO they need to buff path of darkness to give us at least 50% movespeed and NOT ONLY ON THE EFFING TINY PATH but ALWAYS for like 10-20 seconds. One of the biggest annoyances in Cyrodill is that it feels like a walking simulator even if you have a fast horse the area is so big and you can't always teleport to keeps. I'm not sure why only sorcs are able to have this huge advantage compared to other classes to just generally enjoy the gameplay of cyrodill much more.Especially if you roll with a group of sorcs and you have like 1 or 2 members that aren't sorcs, you cant catch up to them and you feel like you are dragging them down because you can be as fast as them.
TLDR- At the current state of the game NB stamina builds ( the way NB's were mainly designed to be played IMO) will never be competitive compared to casters because:
-Bow does Crap DPS at close range, DW does crap DPS at any range, and no DPS when you have to run around.- -Caster do the same sustainable DPS with 1 hotbar at ANY range. -Magicka abilities do way more damage then stamina -Our best resource sustain ability siphoning strikes reduces our weapon damage by 22%. -Haste even when fixed may not do anything at all. To do to highest DPS in this game you need to achieve it by animation canceling. -Sorc's achieve way higher weapon damage then NBs with Surge. -Critical strike passive and others not working (not entirely sure) - Mark Target 75% armor reduction isnt a big deal because mobs don't have that much armor and it doesnt give you a big increase.
Offtopic - PVPing is much less enjoyable do to huge landscape unless you are a high level sorc with bolt escape. Running with a group of sorcs you feel like you are a slug compared to them and if you can't travel together efficiently as a group you feel like a burden.
I've spent alot of time on this game to get to V12 and have close to max gear but one thing I'm not going to do in this game is to re-roll a sorc or DK or play a caster NB with resto staff. If the next patch does not buff NB DW/BOW DPS builds to the level of a Sorc, DK or caster I'm unsubscribing."

Unfortuantely what the OP does not understand is its the same for all classes all 4 are completely gimped in melee with Medium or heavy armor. all of are experiencing the same issues in melee specs. the game is severly poor at end game all classes even the tank will be or at least should be wearing light armor and at least one staff if he is sword and boarding for the sake of block mitigation. the game is near un playable for the end game activites in this reguard. it needs a severe overhaul

SBR_QuorTek

Nightblades are fine as it is... but going full stamina is not the way,, rely on some of your class skills as well since they are magicka based.

relying 100% on different weapon skills only would make so you are not really playing your class as it is.

Artis

But OP absolutely correct when he's bringing up Surge, for example...
No, not all the classes are gimped in the same degree wearing Medium and dealing physical damage.

Frinkles

wafcatb14_ESO wrote: »

This Night blade does pretty good as BOW/ DW and BOW / 2 H


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8krLrYX2ugo


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfBsHLBrkZg

Using vids against the author's views Nice. He never used this vids to prove NBs were fine, quite the contrary to prove personal skill trumping unbalance.

To note he is not VR12. These are highlights and not representative of the average experience even from people like him.

That said it was these vids that made me roll a Nightblade after I got to VR1 as a sorc tried to get inspired by a sorc pvp vid and only saw stupid exploits and noobs soloing entire raids. NBs even when played as advertised DW/Bow even if not "powerful" still look amazing!

VR6 light armor DW/Bow and never looked back to my Sorc. Even then however I AM looking forward to the fixes and buffs.

aaronwalker27

I agree with SBR_QuorTek. As far as bow and stamina weapons, I have a DK bow/bow build that works pretty nicely (currently low lvl at 21 but so far so good). I take full advantage of the DK abilities for buffs, interrupts and close range DPS, which are all magicka, and then bow for ranged. I may not take someone down as quickly as a max DPS sorcerer, but it's an enjoyable and effective way to play since I'm usually snaring multiples with DK and dodging out of range for more bow bashing. Having to balance stamina and magicka both in your attacks I think adds a level of strategy and challenge that I personally enjoy. But for someone who wants to blast through everything as quickly and easily as possible I can see that not being too appealing.

Cody

just shoot em in the knee

DGVish

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

I have none of his issues with dual-wield/bow Nightblades, but I do have a lot of issues with his inability to understand how classes work in this game.

No class is intended to fill a specific role. None of them. Nightblades aren't "built" for dual-wield/bow any more than Dragonknights are. Sorcerers aren't supposed to be lightly armored casters. They can be, but they don't have to.

Most class issues in this game would be solved if people stopped treating the classes as fixed molds for how one is "supposed to play." Every class can fill every role equally well.

You're right no class is pigeonholed into a specific except maybe DKs into tanking. Everyone can play as they deem fit, but NBs that are doing those things aren't exactly sought after. Veteran content requires more than just "okay" at everything. You actually need to be efficient and do comparable damage or healing in line with other classes/roles.

NBs are the jack of all trade but masters of none. Well, they should be masters of stealth and possibly burst damage, but since every class can be stealthies with relative ease they hold no claim over that throne.

NBs don't do anything well right now in VR content except heal because of their endless mana pool thanks to SA.

Shaun98ca2

Cogo wrote: »

dr_zed wrote: »

Why would anyone use bow with DW, that's the stupidest choise you can ever make. Bow and DW do exactly the same things:
- Single target damage skill with a dot.
- aoe skill in a cone pattern that snares
- Circle aoe damage skill
- Single target high damage skill that needs to be casted.

They are almost the same skill line, the only difference is bow has range and dw has damage. It's retardedly redundant to have both.

It's much more useful to combine bow with 2H or 1H and Shield.

Um, I guess I am one of what you call *bad name* for when I reached high enough with my main. A nightblade with Dual wield and Bow as second is what I want to try.

You also claim what would be the most useful? How do you know?
The freedome to pick whatever skills you want is because you can build your character so its suits YOU.

I get a feeling you are talking in math terms and what skills that both these weapons have.

The whole CORE idea with ESO is to build your char so it suits you.

I highly doubt there is a "best" build. I do not count skills that are overpowered in some way. There must be over 1000 different builds you can do.

Your statement that anyone who would choose Dual wield and Bow is *bad word*, not only rude, but goes against what ESO is about. Choices.

So WHAT if a choice is "bad", its the player choice. And maybe for that player its the "right" choice.

While the "CORE" of the game play as you want is here. Min/Maxers show up and point out every single flaw everywhere create the "perfect build" thus removing choice.

Currently this game is 100% based on DPS mindset. The game wasn't designed that way. But more DPS mean you can move faster and faster is always better.

Now we have obsolete abilities. They are obsolete cause they DONT go the "DPS" route. Ability has Knockdown....worthless doesn't work on a boss and now the DPS is reduced for the ability is reduced due to the knockdown effect.

From this point on things DONT get better and cant because ALL DPS abilities HAVE to be EQUAL or there will be imbalance creating OPTIMAL.

MMOs will NEVER be able to do this. Min/Maxers DONT help the game they ruin it.

aaronwalker27

Agreed.

Vuron

@Shaun98ca2 @aaronwalker27‌

Seriously? You're blaming min-maxers for faulty game design?

Currently this game is 100% based on DPS mindset. The game wasn't designed that way.

You WISH it wasn't designed that way, but it was. The trials were designed as nothing more than DPS checks. There are no complicated mechanics to work through. You either have the DPS or you don't and it has nothing to do with min-maxers and everything to do with the design.

Are you really blaming the min-maxers for a skill that has a knockdown effect but doesn't work on bosses?

People need to stop using this pathetic excuse of "play how you want". Someone took an offhand comment that was made a long time ago and want to apply it to ever situation that they don't like in the game.

You CAN play naked, fight bare handed, and slap 5 random skills on your bar if that how you want to play. It doesn't mean that you're going to be equal to people that have put long hours into research to come up with effective builds.

aaronwalker27

Well that's also a valid argument, because I've researched the crap out of my build (and redone it at least once) and i think it's pretty damn great now. I think what shaun is saying, or at least what I'm saying, is that people can get discouraged experimenting when min/max people have found the perfect build and knock others down for not doing what they think is the most effective build, and play strategy can sometimes take a backseat to just copy/paste builds. Not much to do about it i suppose, because it's a pitfall of MMOs that can't be avoided.

I'm talking from the cheap seats though because I've put a lot of time and effort into my build and I think it stands up pretty well. Just philosophizing i guess...

Assilma

Hi there. V12 Nightblade here. I've played this game since day 1 of early access, and for 90% of the time i've been Nightblade, Bow and Dual Wield, medium armour. I likewise feel I know this class inside out, both in PvE and PvP, and the problems are innumerable.

For me there has been literally no other option to be competitive but to re-roll in full light armour and with either a staff or sword and board, or both.

Reason 1)

The fact of the matter is, in both PvE and PvP, AOEs are totally essential. Anybody who has played up to Veteran content can tell you this. You simply cannot spend the whole time attacking one thing at a time, unless you're really doing a tonne more damage than the AOE-ers (which is extremely difficult for a bunch of reasons).

Now, just compare stamina to magicka AOEs for a moment. Whirlwind, Arrow Spray, Cleave, etc, vs. Impulse, Sap Essence, Burning Talons, and Solar Barrage. There is simply no comparison in DPS and in ease of use.

Couple this with the fact that light armour users get a whopping ignore 42% enemy spell resist.

I get 21% critical from medium armour so I can kill one target faster, 21% of the time. Light armour users get to ignore 42% enemy spell resist, so they can kill their targets almost twice as fast all of the time.

Reason 2)

On top of the total, massive imbalances between magicka and stamina AOEs, magicka users' ultimates always out-DPS those of stamina users, because magic damage scales to max magicka. In short, this means in addition to your AOEs, your ultimate will always be worse than a magicka user's if you use stamina primarily.

Reason 3)

Those who use magicka for DPS can then save all of their stamina for CC breaks, roll dodging and crucially blocking. This means that they have a resource pool entirely for damage mitigation in combat. This is why so many players (including myself) are resorting to the 1h + shield, light armour casting build which is becoming so absolutely routine and predictable in PvP that it's becoming a joke. You can just hold block the entire time and cast away (then if you're DK or Templar, you also have insane self-heals to go with it).

The fact that magicka builds are overpowered vs. stamina builds should be obvious by just looking at how absolutely everyone wants to use the Warlock set.

I can do about 1.5k damage to my target if I sneak, use a heavy bow attack and use venom arrow immediately after. But then I have to spend the next minute waiting to be undetected again in order to pull it off again. But if i try the same thing on someone's who's blocking, guess what, almost no damage, and no stun. The entire thing totally collapses, and plenty of players know this. That's why if they get marked (mark target), they just stand there and block, knowing there's virtually nothing you can do. This has to be remedied.

__________

Some possible steps to remedy this:

1) Buff stamina AOEs, in terms of damage, and perhaps in the case of Arrow Spray, make it more like the Templar's long-range AOE from Dawn's Wrath, so it hits multiple targets instead of an area in front of you.

2) reduce block mitigation (particularly against sneak attacks, to make it actually possible to do damage to a blocking tank with a sneak attack, which in my view it should be).

3) Make the damage of ultimate abilities scale to your highest stat out of magicka and stamina, not always magicka.

4) take steps to either improve medium and heavy armour, or nerf light armour. Permanently ignoring 42% enemy spell resistance (from the last passive of light armour) is NOT balanced, considering that the last passive of medium gives you SPRINT SPEED.

Anjelicus

not worth my original reply... you are just doing it wrong

glitchmaster999

I couldn't agree more, the haste is the biggest thing for me, if it decreased weapon animation time or even increased crit damage I would be happy but no, even when you cast haste and start light attacking, you can't tell when the buff runs out just because the boost is so negligible...

glitchmaster999

Teevesnacks wrote: »

Doriangray wrote: »

I have taken this from Reddit. I'm only copying it here with the purpose of informing future players since I agree with the OP...considering that nightblade archetype skill...dark cloak.. is still bugged two months after into the release of the game, you can assume how bugged this class really is. I feel really disappointed considering I did a 6 month sub. I hate to be a burden to my guild mates after putting so much effort into my Nightblade. After reading this if you still have any doubts, refer to this thread > http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/dk-solos-craglorn/ ... I dare you to the same thing this dk is doing with a nightblade or even just come close to what he is doing for that matter before shouting " L2P "... lol.

http://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/26ozbw/reasons_why_nb_dwbow_stamina_builds_will_never_be/
Here's the OP's opinion:
Veteran Rank 12 Night Blade here. Close to max gear for Dual Wield NB bow (PVP V12 Dominion Bow, Hundings rage set , Nights silence set, Night mother set , epic/legendary etc. At least 54% weapon critical for bow and dw. I know this class inside out (in this stamina department at least).
When I chose this class I wanted to Dual wield/bow and I've stuck to it because that's how I see NB's intended to play and how I want to play it. I've always tried to push it to the maximum efficiency even when I know that ill never beat a casters DPS. Done everything in this game except for fourth boss AA trial and the entire Hel Ra.This will be a long post. If anyone is interested in what the Maximum effectiveness of a Dual wield/BOW DPS NB can achieve in a group dungeon or trials compared to other classes then read on.
Heres a small class breakdown of what I've seen in the game regarding PVE in the trials and dungeons in Craglorn.
Sorcerer- Designed to be used as casters can wear light armor and be competitive by achieving dps only second to fire destro dk and OP banner. Their class serves a purpose.
Dragonknight- Designed to be tanky/some dps but completely OP at the moment with best mitagation sustain and DPS by far. No need to say more, although I rather ESO not nerf them and just balances classes to their level. Their class obviously serves a purpose and in trials (almost necessary.)
Templar- Designed to be healers/tanky. Don't know too much about temp skills but they do their job well in PVE trials from what I've seen. Their class serves a purpose as well.
Nightblades- Designed to be Dual wield/bow users with high single target sustained damage. Does not compare to the Single target damage of sorc's caster sustainable dps as a NB bow user or DW user. This class serves no purpose if you play as dual wield/bow in groups because other classes can DPS better. If I wanted to play a caster DPS I would have rolled a sorc. Even though I can match or out DPS really casual Sorcs and Dks, for the amount of time, effort, and theory crafting that I put into my Nightblade, I honestly think I should be doing way more especially since NB was designed to be played like this.
Reasons why NB Stamina builds will never beat sorc casters or any caster's DPS even when pushed to the maximum with gear and skill selection.
Bow DPS- You can only use bows to maximum effectiveness if you are at max range while damaging enemy because you want that bow passive that gives you damage bonus when at max range. Even at max range, the DPS is still lower than sorcs because magicka abilities do a crap ton more damage per cast. The problem with these trials is alot of the times the enemies would be in your face and thats when your DPS takes a hit. If you weapon swap, thats already a huge decrease in DPS on the target because weapon swap although it has gotten better, is still not instantaneous like it should be and really the delay is not worth it to weapon swap when getting an enemy down RIGHT NOW is crucial for the survivability of the group. A class like sorcs on the other hand, do the same sustainable damage no matter what range they are and that DPS is better than what NBs can achieve with bow at max range.
Dual Wield DPS- Dual wield single target DPS is really not great for hard dungeons especially when you factor in the number of bosses or enemies that have to be downed from RANGE. I use dual wield for my AOE skills like steel tornado/ power extraction. Also for craglorn, if your running as DPS in your group and you dont have decent AOE spammable spell, you might as well just consider yourself a complete burden and waste of a party slot because all trash requires high AOE Damage.
Siphoning Strikes- I hate and love this skill. IMO this is one of the best NB abilities in the game as it allows you to have very high sustain on magicka and stamina and this is especially important for stamina based builds because you need to spam stamina abilities as well as do things like dodge roll and cc break. I hate this skill because it requires a sacrifice of 22% of my weapon damage and spell power in order for it to be used. Why is the damage nerf so high? Especially since NB's in general are already lacking in the DPS department compared to other classes. But I must use it for long Boss fights because 0 stamina= crap DPS.
Haste- On paper, this skill sounds like one of the best abilities weapon users could have in the game and is one of the reasons that drew me into choosing NBs because I like to attack as fast as possible in RPGs. But to achieve maximum DPS in this game you have to use basic attacks while animation canceling with weapon skills like venom arrow to shoot 2 arrows in a second. I don't even know even if they fixed this skill that it would give me any noticeable increase because of the way DPS is achieved in this game by animation canceling. So even after this skill is fixed this skill might be completely useless. Sorcs on the other hand get a skill like Surge that gives them something like +90 weapon damage for 30 seconds allowing them to achieve the highest weapon damage possible in the game for Single Target stamina abilities as well. So please explain to me why Sorcerers that are already the best casters can also achieve the highest possible weapon damage for single target( don't count power extraction) when NB's must be hit with a -22% weapon damage toggle in order to do any real sustainable dps with Stamina abilities.
Mark Target- Reduces enemy armor and spell resistance by 75% but also reduces your own armor and spell resist by the same amount. Again another example of a skill for night blade that has the potential to be amazing like siphoning strikes but comes at a huge drawback and not a great advantage considering mobs dont have high armor. Sorcs surge and Dk molten weapons increase their weapon damage with no drawbacks and even pass it on to the entire group while Mark Target can only be seen by the NB caster and only benefit the NB caster who does the worst DPS anyway.
PVP(off topic)- Small rant on PVP:
In a huge open enviroment like Cyrodill, really there is nothing comparable to the ability Bolt Escape. This ability might not be that powerful in a small enclosed area but we are in a huuuuge area where you can blink 20 miles away in a second to escape from danger and regenerate all your resources to reengage and destroy your enemy in an instant and rinse repeat especially with the burst potential of sorcs. Sorcs argue that they are squishy light armor so they need this but from what I've seen veteran 12 light armor sorcs with 3k+ hp are just as tanky as anyone else and they have bolt escape...Compared to NBs that have a 2.9 second invisibility and even if you spammed it, is not really comparable to instantly moving 20 miles away with the speed of bolt escape. IMO they need to buff path of darkness to give us at least 50% movespeed and NOT ONLY ON THE EFFING TINY PATH but ALWAYS for like 10-20 seconds. One of the biggest annoyances in Cyrodill is that it feels like a walking simulator even if you have a fast horse the area is so big and you can't always teleport to keeps. I'm not sure why only sorcs are able to have this huge advantage compared to other classes to just generally enjoy the gameplay of cyrodill much more.Especially if you roll with a group of sorcs and you have like 1 or 2 members that aren't sorcs, you cant catch up to them and you feel like you are dragging them down because you can be as fast as them.
TLDR- At the current state of the game NB stamina builds ( the way NB's were mainly designed to be played IMO) will never be competitive compared to casters because:
-Bow does Crap DPS at close range, DW does crap DPS at any range, and no DPS when you have to run around.- -Caster do the same sustainable DPS with 1 hotbar at ANY range. -Magicka abilities do way more damage then stamina -Our best resource sustain ability siphoning strikes reduces our weapon damage by 22%. -Haste even when fixed may not do anything at all. To do to highest DPS in this game you need to achieve it by animation canceling. -Sorc's achieve way higher weapon damage then NBs with Surge. -Critical strike passive and others not working (not entirely sure) - Mark Target 75% armor reduction isnt a big deal because mobs don't have that much armor and it doesnt give you a big increase.
Offtopic - PVPing is much less enjoyable do to huge landscape unless you are a high level sorc with bolt escape. Running with a group of sorcs you feel like you are a slug compared to them and if you can't travel together efficiently as a group you feel like a burden.
I've spent alot of time on this game to get to V12 and have close to max gear but one thing I'm not going to do in this game is to re-roll a sorc or DK or play a caster NB with resto staff. If the next patch does not buff NB DW/BOW DPS builds to the level of a Sorc, DK or caster I'm unsubscribing."

So this whole post was just to whine about other classes

Whining would be saying they all need nerfs but he is saying that all other classes are great, night blades just need buffs, ( I would say that templars are in the same boat as well with regards to sorcerers out healing them in trials)