Reasons why NB DW/BOW stamina builds will never be competitive compared to other class archetypes

Doriangray

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Doriangray wrote: »

Teroh wrote: »

Read part of it waste of a read.

OP has a strict set of rules each class has to play by and if they are not effective in that role its broken.

His idea that NB are designed to be DW/BOW leads me to believe he is just ranting with no idea of how the game is..

Well, you obviously don't know anything about Nightblade, so, I don't see how anybody could possibly care about your opinion anyway .

So Nightblades are designed for dual-wield/bow.

Do. Tell.

I'm still waiting for you to share that link....LOL

nerevarine1138

Doriangray wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Doriangray wrote: »

Teroh wrote: »

Read part of it waste of a read.

OP has a strict set of rules each class has to play by and if they are not effective in that role its broken.

His idea that NB are designed to be DW/BOW leads me to believe he is just ranting with no idea of how the game is..

Well, you obviously don't know anything about Nightblade, so, I don't see how anybody could possibly care about your opinion anyway .

So Nightblades are designed for dual-wield/bow.

Do. Tell.

I'm still waiting for you to share that link....LOL

You said not to bother, and I don't fraps. Sorry, you'll have to go without.

I'd like to know where it is that Nightblades are limited to dual-wield/bow builds.

hk11

Doriangray wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Doriangray wrote: »

Teroh wrote: »

Read part of it waste of a read.

OP has a strict set of rules each class has to play by and if they are not effective in that role its broken.

His idea that NB are designed to be DW/BOW leads me to believe he is just ranting with no idea of how the game is..

Well, you obviously don't know anything about Nightblade, so, I don't see how anybody could possibly care about your opinion anyway .

So Nightblades are designed for dual-wield/bow.

Do. Tell.

I'm still waiting for you to share that link....LOL

When you go to the character creation screen, check out the weapon loadout when you choose NB as a class. What is a person supposed to think the class is designed for if not dual wielding?

subecsanur

hk11 wrote: »

Doriangray wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Doriangray wrote: »

Teroh wrote: »

Read part of it waste of a read.

OP has a strict set of rules each class has to play by and if they are not effective in that role its broken.

His idea that NB are designed to be DW/BOW leads me to believe he is just ranting with no idea of how the game is..

Well, you obviously don't know anything about Nightblade, so, I don't see how anybody could possibly care about your opinion anyway .

So Nightblades are designed for dual-wield/bow.

Do. Tell.

I'm still waiting for you to share that link....LOL

When you go to the character creation screen, check out the weapon loadout when you choose NB as a class. What is a person supposed to think the class is designed for if not dual wielding?

Lol exactly, its not like the Character creation screen screams "oh I see a casting cloth wearing, magicka using class is the one I want" so I pick Nightblade.

Doriangray

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Doriangray wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Doriangray wrote: »

Teroh wrote: »

Read part of it waste of a read.

OP has a strict set of rules each class has to play by and if they are not effective in that role its broken.

His idea that NB are designed to be DW/BOW leads me to believe he is just ranting with no idea of how the game is..

Well, you obviously don't know anything about Nightblade, so, I don't see how anybody could possibly care about your opinion anyway .

So Nightblades are designed for dual-wield/bow.

Do. Tell.

I'm still waiting for you to share that link....LOL

You said not to bother, and I don't fraps. Sorry, you'll have to go without.

I'd like to know where it is that Nightblades are limited to dual-wield/bow builds.

I also said you may use any combination with weapon and armor and compare to other classes and used the dk's video as refrence. I'm sorry if you have a hard time comprehending things, I will try to keep my posts as short as possible.

Hedonist_Jester

What is dw or bow meant for? If you can dps and aoe more using destruct or 2 hander... and if class skills are meant to be spammed til you run out of resources... just do away with the bow and dw.

Oh wait... they are meant to be balanced choices? Through all the bickering and arguing here, I don't believe a single poster has mentioned that.

Zooce

It's actually a pretty easy fix:

Increase the DMG of stamina based skills (to make them comparable to magika)
Decrease the cost of stamina based skills (to make up for the fact you have to use stamina also for dodge / roll etc..)

Test it out on similar spec. VR12s - should be able to balance it.

nerevarine1138

subecsanur wrote: »

hk11 wrote: »

Doriangray wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Doriangray wrote: »

Teroh wrote: »

Read part of it waste of a read.

OP has a strict set of rules each class has to play by and if they are not effective in that role its broken.

His idea that NB are designed to be DW/BOW leads me to believe he is just ranting with no idea of how the game is..

Well, you obviously don't know anything about Nightblade, so, I don't see how anybody could possibly care about your opinion anyway .

So Nightblades are designed for dual-wield/bow.

Do. Tell.

I'm still waiting for you to share that link....LOL

When you go to the character creation screen, check out the weapon loadout when you choose NB as a class. What is a person supposed to think the class is designed for if not dual wielding?

Lol exactly, its not like the Character creation screen screams "oh I see a casting cloth wearing, magicka using class is the one I want" so I pick Nightblade.

Really? That's your excuse for not understanding how the class system works? "The character creation screen showed me different armor."

Ser Lobo

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Doriangray wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Doriangray wrote: »

Teroh wrote: »

Read part of it waste of a read.

OP has a strict set of rules each class has to play by and if they are not effective in that role its broken.

His idea that NB are designed to be DW/BOW leads me to believe he is just ranting with no idea of how the game is..

Well, you obviously don't know anything about Nightblade, so, I don't see how anybody could possibly care about your opinion anyway .

So Nightblades are designed for dual-wield/bow.

Do. Tell.

I'm still waiting for you to share that link....LOL

You said not to bother, and I don't fraps. Sorry, you'll have to go without.

I'd like to know where it is that Nightblades are limited to dual-wield/bow builds.

My 'barbarian' is split armor, two-handed sword. I use the NB abilities to close the gap and setup for big hits. Works pretty well.

hk11

Yeah I'm finished trying to make it work. In fact, I am about to hit the sack to get ready for the wildstar headstart.

Nuitar

Caster NB is probably the best 1v1 pvp class in the game atm, with enough sustain/escape to get away -

Edit: Saying this as a v12 rank 15 NB. Drop a veil of blades and you can take on small groups, then pop a pot and get away. We're not so far off of a sorc when played like a sorc

ipkonfigcub18_ESO

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

So you're ignoring the Nightblade video that shows a sword-and-board Nightblade soloing an entire VR dungeon, including bosses? And you're ignoring the fact that this thread is supposed to be about how a specific weapon combination is underpowered for this class only?

If you want to complain about how a weapon skill set is weak compared to other weapon skill sets, then don't make a thread about a specific class being underpowered. Otherwise, your point is completely nonsensical.

@nerevarine1138‌
YOU, need to rethink what you just said, a lot.

That video of a NB is taking advantage of a known bug in the game. He Shadows, then comes out and the mobs stand there and do nothing because the game server has not yet seen him come out of shadow because he's lagging (or using a lag exploit too, they're well known) to accomplish that.

Understand the games issues and you will clearly see what he is abusing. Someone with a very low latency to the server would never be able to accomplish this.

subecsanur

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

subecsanur wrote: »

hk11 wrote: »

Doriangray wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Doriangray wrote: »

Teroh wrote: »

Read part of it waste of a read.

OP has a strict set of rules each class has to play by and if they are not effective in that role its broken.

His idea that NB are designed to be DW/BOW leads me to believe he is just ranting with no idea of how the game is..

Well, you obviously don't know anything about Nightblade, so, I don't see how anybody could possibly care about your opinion anyway .

So Nightblades are designed for dual-wield/bow.

Do. Tell.

I'm still waiting for you to share that link....LOL

When you go to the character creation screen, check out the weapon loadout when you choose NB as a class. What is a person supposed to think the class is designed for if not dual wielding?

Lol exactly, its not like the Character creation screen screams "oh I see a casting cloth wearing, magicka using class is the one I want" so I pick Nightblade.

Really? That's your excuse for not understanding how the class system works? "The character creation screen showed me different armor."

Lol, don't tell me how the a broken class system works. Even when you understand that in the end caster / magicka based prevails, I am sure that is not the vision you get from the initial false advertisement on the character creation screen. This is only oh after we are already deep in the VR zones that we realize that the others have it better and we are adjusting being Night-staves and not Night-blades running around in light armor like a wanna be sorcerer mage class.

Cogo

When I make my first alt, I already decided (over a month ago), on a nightblade with dual wield of course and a bow. Will focus on the dual wield. He will not be a sneaky/hidden attacker. But a brutal heavy single/frontal attacker with group healing buffs and debuffs on targets.

I kinda hope that night blade with dual wield are considered the worst then.....

AltusVenifus

I'm not sure I understand, what the dissention to this post is about. For those that want the NB to only be effective ganking, away from the raid groups... go to hell.

Single target out of stealth damage is all but useless in my guilds raid groups and PVP. This game is about focused AOE bombs, and I want to contribute to that in some way. I'm not asking to be an overpowered GOD of WAR, but give me a role in the raid or I will continue to call all that oppose a thread like this a moron.

born2beagator

subecsanur wrote: »

hk11 wrote: »

Doriangray wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Doriangray wrote: »

Teroh wrote: »

Read part of it waste of a read.

OP has a strict set of rules each class has to play by and if they are not effective in that role its broken.

His idea that NB are designed to be DW/BOW leads me to believe he is just ranting with no idea of how the game is..

Well, you obviously don't know anything about Nightblade, so, I don't see how anybody could possibly care about your opinion anyway .

So Nightblades are designed for dual-wield/bow.

Do. Tell.

I'm still waiting for you to share that link....LOL

When you go to the character creation screen, check out the weapon loadout when you choose NB as a class. What is a person supposed to think the class is designed for if not dual wielding?

Lol exactly, its not like the Character creation screen screams "oh I see a casting cloth wearing, magicka using class is the one I want" so I pick Nightblade.

Thats the very reason I went nightblade, I wanted to be a quick, dual wielding, bow character. Works wonders in 1-50 pve.....beyond that? not so much

NoMoreChillies

The only viable combo in game is destro/resto with light armor

play how you want ...............right?

OkieDokie

"Reasons why DW/BOW..."

This is not a NB issue. People keep saying that and distracts devs from class skills issues that must be addressed.

Yeah, I know, most of the guys who decided to play a NB were expecting dual wield and bow, but...just face it. Class skills are magicka based (and it makes sense), you also need health...if you try to work with a third attribute none of them will work great. It's just logic.

However, yes, I agree with all of you who want to play stamina builds that a buff is required, so we all can have fun with any build.

It does not make my previous statement false though.

dodgehopper_ESO

Dagus wrote: »

stamina is unsustainable as a damage resource.
you use it to run, you use it to block, and you are forced to also use it for attacks too? thats silly to me.

break TES tradition and just make a resource for stamina based attacks.
the triple dipping has to stop. I know they/you (zeni) want to keep the game as close to TES tradition as possible, but you have to keep in mind that this is an MMO. This is not Skyrim Multiplayer. I don't care that YOU made it, I don't care what you wanted it to be. give it up. we know what we want, and if you want to make money you have to cater to the community, that's just how it works.

You are wrong about this though. My two hander wielder in Skyrim did such ridiculous damage I could two or three shot most dragons. Strong ones at that. My Greatsword was Death Incarnate, even the Daedra feared it, because it was better than the garbage they made. My skills and the synchronicity of passives I had, were FAR superior to magicka based attacks. I'll admit, Enchanting and Smithing was involved, but I didn't use any weird loops or cheats. It was all within the proper caps set in the game.

My Sword and Shield character mowed through enemies, sending them flying in all different directions when he charged with this shield. Almost nothing could withstand me in Shield mode. It took a little longer to kill with this character, but I could wade through magicka based attacks like nobody's business and Arrows tickled at best.

Archery was likewise Brutal. I could just about one shot everything, and that didnt' even include the things that could be done with Paralyzing shot, Daedric/Dragonbone arrows, or Alchemy/Poisons. Even legendary dragons feared my Archer build, and just about everything else did too.

What is the takeaway from all this? Very simply, I disagree with the notion that Melee was ever weak in Skyrim. If anything was weak in Skyrim it was magic based attacks, which I suppose fit the theme of a Nord hero a lot more. Support magic was fine, but playing a wizard was gently made not as useful, but doable (and I did run a pure mage on another build).

The problem might very well be with the multipliers on stamina based abilities. Additionally, and this might take a lot of coding, but I really wish they could implement the combination system we had in skyrim with our melee abilities. I'd love to do the Greatsword Bunny-Hop on people, or the sideslash of doom. Please, don't tell me it can't be done in an MMO, DCUO uses Combinations as well, and plays very similarly to this game (Excluding things like superspeed and flight). It may be difficult to add in combinations to their game engine, I don't know, but I think it would be fantastic for them to add to the weapon skill lines some day some combination-based maneuvers for weapon sets.

One thing they could also do to create some semblance of balance, Is to let players pick up another 'tree' ability from the other classes, once they've achieved 50 and unlocked all of their own class abilities. It would come with a cost, but they'd have access to a whole other pool of abilities. Then again this might just create a whole other imbalance issue all its own. Passive stacking could get powerful like that.

Redwyrm

Bow is not pure-DPS weapon, neither for single or AoE. Its mix of damage and good CC, both single and AoE.
In dungeons bombardment is one of the best skills i ever used, rooting everyone it hits. Which alone means no DPS from melee mobs, neither to you or your allies. And if you use it right, damage from bombardment also pretty good, around 400 damage per target with siphoning turned on (which is also mean you won't ran out of stamina, as long as there are many targets you can hit).

In PvP its ranged spike-damage weapon. No one can survive two stealth-opener snipes from nightblades (1.7k - 2k damage per snipe).

hamon

Dagus wrote: »

stamina is unsustainable as a damage resource.
you use it to run, you use it to block, and you are forced to also use it for attacks too? thats silly to me.

break TES tradition and just make a resource for stamina based attacks.
the triple dipping has to stop. I know they/you (zeni) want to keep the game as close to TES tradition as possible, but you have to keep in mind that this is an MMO. This is not Skyrim Multiplayer. I don't care that YOU made it, I don't care what you wanted it to be. give it up. we know what we want, and if you want to make money you have to cater to the community, that's just how it works.

its not even necessary to remove block etc from stam use IF they just seriously reduce the stam costs for weapon skills. that wouldnt require a massive rework just a sensible reaction to an obvious flaw.

Cody

half the skills are broken, and the actual damage they put out is.... pathetic... compared to the other classes. but this talk im seeing about "NBs should have crowd control" and "NBs cant solo Vet content" is wrong. NBs are supposed to SNEAK. medium armor is meant for STEALTH, I for one love medium armor. Especially the stealth bonus. I soloed 95% of all the past 3 or 4 vet zones iv been to in my NB char. only for public dungs did I ever group. I took on groups, and bosses and beat them. It was hard but I did it. I even managed to cause some chaos in PvP, and im one of the worst PvPers in the whole planet on this game! The Nb is UP compared to the other classes, but its not completely defenseless like yall seem to believe. Half of th epoeple that complain about NBs sucking, I noticed play em as tanks and mages and all that. SNEAK. a NB is an assassin, a ninja. you wont beat a DK in an up front fight. Use stealth! get the first stealth hit, go invisible, use the chaos created by players in PvP to get osme stealthy quick kills. in vet zones, sneak by all those hard spots you cant do. The bosses can be beat, it just takes more skill and effort than it would for a DK or a sorc. My point, NBs need to be buffed, definitely. Their damage output does not even compare, but saying they cant solo vet zones and take on bosses is wrong.

Selodaoc

Just what i think aswell. But it also includes class skills and passives. Veryunderwhelming and weak compared to other classes.

dr_zed

Why would anyone use bow with DW, that's the stupidest choise you can ever make. Bow and DW do exactly the same things:
- Single target damage skill with a dot.
- aoe skill in a cone pattern that snares
- Circle aoe damage skill
- Single target high damage skill that needs to be casted.

They are almost the same skill line, the only difference is bow has range and dw has damage. It's retardedly redundant to have both.

It's much more useful to combine bow with 2H or 1H and Shield.

Aoifesan

dr_zed wrote: »

Why would anyone use bow with DW, that's the stupidest choise you can ever make. Bow and DW do exactly the same things:
- Single target damage skill with a dot.
- aoe skill in a cone pattern that snares
- Circle aoe damage skill
- Single target high damage skill that needs to be casted.

They are almost the same skill line, the only difference is bow has range and dw has damage. It's retardedly redundant to have both.

It's much more useful to combine bow with 2H or 1H and Shield.

Did that originally 1h/s and bow and found that DW is MUCH better for the close in dungeon AoE style. So now I have all three. *sigh*

Aoifesan

NookyZooky wrote: »

half the skills are broken, and the actual damage they put out is.... pathetic... compared to the other classes. The bosses can be beat, it just takes more skill and effort than it would for a DK or a sorc.

That this is still the case makes me sigh.

kitchenguy65_ESO

Doriangray wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Doriangray wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Doriangray wrote: »

@nerevarine1138
Stamina regen has a cap like all the other regens. Blood craze is the only weapon skill I use on my bar anyway. It's just more viable to rely on magicka based abilities since Stamina is used for many other things. I mean a cc break alone takes about 50% of your bar if you don't have a certain set bonus.
If you look at the trial leader-boards, you'll seldom see a nightblade. and that's factual information. " Fine DPS " doesn't mean anything. And like I mentioned about the whole " L2P" If your nightblade is so powerful as you put it, do the same thing that Dk is doing in the video . If you can't record the video, just invite me to the group so I watch how you die over and over. I'm a v11.
Can't wait to see till you solo all those elites with your "powerful" nightblade.

Holy crap! A dual-wield/bow DK soloed Craglorn?!?!?!?! And not just trash mobs?!?!?!

Oh, hang on a tick...

Obviously he did not solo a whole thing ...lol
I don't care what combination you use to get as far as he did, Whatever you want to. As long as you show me it's possible with night blade. Oh and please try to be as sarcastic as possible when you die on the first trash pull. It makes it more fun to watch

So you're ignoring the Nightblade video that shows a sword-and-board Nightblade soloing an entire VR dungeon, including bosses? And you're ignoring the fact that this thread is supposed to be about how a specific weapon combination is underpowered for this class only?

If you want to complain about how a weapon skill set is weak compared to other weapon skill sets, then don't make a thread about a specific class being underpowered. Otherwise, your point is completely nonsensical.

Link the video please. If it does exist. But if you're referring to a v10 soloing the v5 spindle clutch ... then don't bother and also pay attention how long he takes to kill a normal mob compared to a Dk. Nightblade is the weakest class in every role. Unless you're prepared to take up the challenge or provide factual information then refrain form commenting.

Here you are, NB soloing Craglorn http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/105520/vr-6-nightblade-solo-craglorn-bosses-video-without-invisible-stays-full-health

reften

there are only 4 classes in this game. It shouldn't be hard to balance. OP makes some good points.

VR3 NB bow/bow

Artis

Pretty much what OP said. Also, the synergy with weapons is really bad. Omg, I compared my DPS to my friend's DPS. He plays templar in heavy armor enchanted on magicka and with 2h. He has twice higher DPS, even though he's 3 veteran ranks lower.
He uses volcanic rune, critical rush to that pack and then biting jabs the entire pack to death. Kills a 3 mobs pack in a few seconds. What do I do? Rune, rush.. and then? Nothing to use. Concealed weapon? Yeah, can use that a few times while there's mana, but its damage is ridiculously small compared to what you get from biting jabs. After that what? Ok, we have sap essence. That is aoe. But numbers are small, again. We can buff ourselves and then... just left click mobs. that's it. Because no more slots... Rune, sap essence, critical rush, concealed weapon+shadow cloak. The last one is probably siphon health.. for at least some heals.. a 3 mobs pack is being dealt during almost a minute. DPS doesn't go higher than 250 or so. While his is about 500-600 single target.. and reaches 1k on a few targets.

I'm nightblade, if you didn't get it yet :P
we both are wearing blue crafted sets and weapons. Although, I got epic 2H for vr5 from one of the dungeons and was wearing that.. supposed to be even more damage. haha.

Tobiz

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

Works pretty well.

Im copying your sig.