Make sure you WoWify the game

indytims_ESO

Prettiboi wrote: »

SeinSchatten wrote: »

Prettiboi wrote: »

Leveling should be fairly hard, only about 50% of population should be able to complete to max 50

VR content should be extremely hard, where only about 10% of the population should be able to complete it. Rewards for VR content should be the best gear possible to gear up all the elites who can complete it.

This should be the way. Making it this hard with great rewards will really make the Elitists and Pros in the game stand out. After all, they are the ones carrying the game and moving it forward.

Cater to the elitists, not to the casuals. There are tons of causal MMOs out there, GW2 being a great example. Paid subscription-based MMOs should cater to the elitsts.

Why don't YOU leave to your elite game? Afterall, people like you pay only a tiny part of the bill.

Elitists are the ones holding the torch, leading the way. First ones in, leading the charge to down the bosses, figure out the mechanics, and post them online so everybody else will be able to do it too. They are the ones who write the guides, give the tips that YOU ALL USE to your benefit. Without these elitists, you wouldn't be where you are today in-game. It is the elitists who SHAPE the game, give feedback to the devs, etc. Not the casuals. Remember this next time you think elitists are "but a tiny part".

Rubbish.

Who cares who is 'first', 'leading the way' into new content?

Only you and your fellow elitists - which, thankfully, make up a very small part of the population.

Guides? How many guides have you written? I wouldn't know, because as a casual player myself I don't -use- any guides. Acting as if your 'guidance' has helped me in some way is beyond arrogant, and is simply untrue.

Zeni is doing what most MMO companies do: they are working with a blueprint set by companies like Blizzard: tried and true methods of attracting large numbers of players, and making money. Zeni isn't an 'elitist pal'. They're a company trying to make bank. With 'easy mode' games being so popular and hard-mode games -not- being popular, common sense says they take what is proven to work, customize it, and try to make cash off of it. Simple economics.

And before fellow EQ fanboys jump in here about how 'hard used to be popular', EQ's hey-day came and went during a period of time when they had, what, ONE competitor? The market is flooded now with competitors, each company looking for a piece of the MMO pie. Today's world is centered around instant gratification. Humans are -inherently- lazy. The world seeks comforts and conveniences on a daily basis. It makes no sense that you and others might expect it to be any different in a game made by a for-profit company looking to cash in on the genre.

Guppet

Prettiboi wrote: »

Leveling should be fairly hard, only about 50% of population should be able to complete to max 50

VR content should be extremely hard, where only about 10% of the population should be able to complete it. Rewards for VR content should be the best gear possible to gear up all the elites who can complete it.

This should be the way. Making it this hard with great rewards will really make the Elitists and Pros in the game stand out. After all, they are the ones carrying the game and moving it forward.

Cater to the elitists, not to the casuals. There are tons of causal MMOs out there, GW2 being a great example. Paid subscription-based MMOs should cater to the elitsts.

Troll, or the worst economist ever to be born?

Only 50% to level 50 and 10% to max VR. Do you work for a rival corporation and badly want this game to fail?

If only 10% reach max level, you can only retain max 10% of players as long term subscribers. You gave me a good laugh though.

wrlifeboil

In WoW, there are many ways to level and the game so finely tuned that while a person could level to max level by grinding mobs all day long, it is the most boring alternative.

In eso, the devs actually designed the game so that grinding mobs is the preferred way to level. Imagine that. The devs intentionally made the most boring alternative the preferred method of leveling.

It sure looks like eso could use some WoWification.

isengrimb16_ESO

Oh, maybe you'll want to go back to WoW now that they've listened to whiners and don't want flying in future zones at all if they can help it. Have fun wading through those boring, one-shottable 90s to do your mat farming!

@Millitum - Firefighter and EMS/RN? We the majority should be kissing YOUR minority butt. I had my Standard First Aid (with CPR and all that rigamorole) as a cadet, because it was a requirement, but I can't stand to take it over again, even 30+ years later (our training involved lots of NFB-made WW2 films for combat soldiers. It wasn't fun.) My husband is going for his ticket in two weeks; I'm very proud of him for doing so, even though it's just for to get a better/better-paying job (he'll be going for more tickets after that, coz I'm gonna make him.)

Though I will say, WoW is really nothing but a boring grind, once you've done all the quests - which, btw, are still pretty lacklustre and make you feel like a peon. Everyone seems to forget what you do - but I'm in Reaper's March and STILL hear about how I let some woman have her revenge in Phaer. That seems like decades ago itself!

The only one who remembered me was Nazgrim, and I was forced to kill him. Naz was the LAST NPC I wanted to see fall beneath my bullets and blades.

And Timeless Isle is nothing but a dull grind. Farm 50 Epoch Stones to see a 15-second silent film that doesn't make sense until Kairoz tells you what you just saw. It would take me 2-3 hours to get those damn stones on my hunter, and I detest just running around killing things. I'd rather fly around and collect mats for ... well a mount or pet, I guess, since I can't make decent gear over there.

@Indytims - Old games seem like the developers didn't even want anyone playing "their" game. The reason I never got into video games was because they never used to give you that carrot to want to keep going after your face got smashed just for leaving the introductory room. They'd design things so that you'd have to be "uber l33t" while naked with no weapon. Screw that noise, and anyone who misses those days is free to get DOSBox and relive it via abandonware sites.

Millitum

@isengrimb16_ESO strictly fire and RN, we have a joint EMS/Paramedic unit that shares our halls. I And no, the public shouldn't kiss our arses, since you the public pay our wages. I appreciate the thanks though, and best of luck to your husband, I wish him and you all the best while he makes the transition and pursues more education .

The be all and end all of the gaming community comes down to simple economics, the elite top 5-10% of the players do not make a company money. What those 5-10% may do, is keep the casual players interested since they strive to be in that percentage, and usually have all the shiny toys we all love.

The gaming industry has very quickly realized the gaming demographic is getting older, and as such, we older people do not have the time to invest so heavily within a game. As such, casual gamers are becoming the majority.

I do not disparage those that want a hardcore, niche, elite gaming mode. That's awesome, and I love watching you guys on twitch and stuff. But do not think to make decisions on how a game should be for the rest of us, that cannot play to the level you do.

isengrimb16_ESO

Pay your wages? That's the LEAST ..... what you guys do is worth a lot more than mere money. I can't be argued with on this point. I get angry when worthy people get shy and modest.

There's room in ESO for everyone. Just give it time, and a few more patches. The whole game doesn't need to be catered to elites, and I've heard enough complaints as to how hard post-50 content is (level 42 nightbow, no problems so far, have passives up the yazoo). I'm an awful awful gamer who godmodes in single player and likes LFR in WoW. But I'm having an awesome fun time in ESO - I find it challenging without being FRUSTRATING, and the toned-down keybinds have allowed me to become a better player. I can't keybind WoW's billion abilities, I get too confused when I try, so I just click on my action bars with my mouse while moving with my arrow keys in a weird, cross-hand combo that works well enough to slow me down enough so that I don't hear "I can't do that ye - ability is not ready ye- I ca -" etc

If I don't buy into Wildstar, it's mostly because I saw that it was going the WoW way with abilities, and I just can't ... ugh, just no. Also, typical boring peon quests.

darkweed1977

In my opinion vanilla WoW had a good thing going when it came to difficulty and game speed. You needed to be careful not to pull too many mobs and the elites running around, were elites that you needed to be good at your class to kill or to be at least two players.
Burning crusade was okay, but from there it really began to go easy mode.

This game however, I have only died 2 times at max while levelling all 4 classes, if I dont count in the group dungeons and cyradil. That is redicilous that it is so easy. And I am only an average casual gamer, so I can understand why the better players need some more challenges, but it should not be on the expense of the casual average gamer, that still knows how to play well, which is 80% of the player base.

Millitum

@isengrimb16_ESO‌ again, appreciate the support, it's much appreciated considering the current government where I live is trying to nuke our essential services into outer orbit haha.

I left WoW for much of the same reasons you did, elitist players and an overbloat of keybinds, add-on requirements and ease of combat. I played upto and including the current content in WoW as a Druid Healer (same character since BETA), and it was BORING. I'd likely move around a few times per fight to get out of the red stuff, spam a few heals, lifebloom, magic mushroom the tank (s) and blow off my big heals with Clarry.

It's a great game, and I have no issues with those that still play WoW. I take issues with those that use WoW as the benchmark of what an MMO should be.

tanthil

Prettiboi wrote: »

Leveling should be fairly hard, only about 50% of population should be able to complete to max 50

VR content should be extremely hard, where only about 10% of the population should be able to complete it. Rewards for VR content should be the best gear possible to gear up all the elites who can complete it.

This should be the way. Making it this hard with great rewards will really make the Elitists and Pros in the game stand out. After all, they are the ones carrying the game and moving it forward.

Cater to the elitists, not to the casuals. There are tons of causal MMOs out there, GW2 being a great example. Paid subscription-based MMOs should cater to the elitsts.

I'm sorry but how exactly does this model work with a pay to play set up in any god dam way? From a buisiness point of view or from a player point of view

tanthil

wrlifeboil wrote: »

tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »

wildstar

...will be a niche mmo if the end game is as difficult as they hyping it to be.

A bigger niche then this one.
Unfortunately assuming they did do the end game right as they claim though im not really into playing a game with classes that look like they are out of a 10 year olds cartoon and matching artwork

Nox_Aeterna

Prettiboi wrote: »

Leveling should be fairly hard, only about 50% of population should be able to complete to max 50

VR content should be extremely hard, where only about 10% of the population should be able to complete it. Rewards for VR content should be the best gear possible to gear up all the elites who can complete it.

This should be the way. Making it this hard with great rewards will really make the Elitists and Pros in the game stand out. After all, they are the ones carrying the game and moving it forward.

Cater to the elitists, not to the casuals. There are tons of causal MMOs out there, GW2 being a great example. Paid subscription-based MMOs should cater to the elitsts.

I for sure would not pay for a game where i cant get to max lvl , since most of the content in freaking hard and locked to 10%.

But hey , if the devs think this game would still gather enough money this way and want to go down that road , that is up to them.

Endolith

We live in an instant gratification society. Most players want faceroll easy, so that's where the money is. You can make it difficult if you don't mind being a niche game, but apparently ZOS does mind.

Blackwolfe5

Millitum wrote: »

@prettiboi Here's where you're wrong dear sir, when you state in real life only 5-10% carry the rest of us.

I'm a middle class, blue collar, career firefighter and part time RN who fills in for vacant spots due to vacation, sick leave, mat leave and whatnot.

So let's break this down, you're telling me only 5-10% of the population carries my ass around, and I should pander to them? That they support me? This elite 5-10%? Bullcrap sir, bullcrap.

Middle class individuals (i.e. Blue collar, or casuals) support both the lower bracket and the higher bracket, through taxes.

It's the same for this MMO. Casual players, such as myself, carry the elitists by providing a steady stream of income for ZOS to make content for the Elitists to helicopter their ePeen around.

Exactly! It's people like you that carry the 10%. People working "on the ground". Not just by taxes, but by the work you do!

Millitum

Hopefully this new Craglorn content will play to both castes of players, being 'Elite' and Casual.

But parties make up the whole, the 'Elite' just need to remember we are the ruling caste to be perfectly honest. Just remember what happened to the French Monarchy 'Elite' once the peasantry was fed up with how they were treated.

I believe, heads started to roll.

Tavarde

Hasn't anyone considered the possibility that the VR content was intended to be done in groups and not solo in the first place?

Indarqeen

Games should be fun, not hard Work

gilandbb14_ESO

Seems a lot of these "hardcore" players who always talk about how great EQ1 was have forgotten about ALL the time spent looking for a group just so you could go camp some spot somewhere for hours on end.
Even dungeons were that way. Zone in, do a camp check, try to find a named spawn point that wasn't already camped, move there.
ahh, those were the days huh?
no

wrlifeboil

tanthil wrote: »

wrlifeboil wrote: »

tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »

wildstar

...will be a niche mmo if the end game is as difficult as they hyping it to be.

A bigger niche then this one.
Unfortunately assuming they did do the end game right as they claim though im not really into playing a game with classes that look like they are out of a 10 year olds cartoon and matching artwork

The difference between Wildstar and eso is that eso has the existing 'user base' in the millions the TES gamers. Wildstar is starting from scratch so I'd expect the ws niche to be much smaller unless they do a really great job (or if ZOS screws up royally).

j.frank.nicholsb14_ESO

tripiseanb14_ESO wrote: »

Uhg! So frustrating. They finally go in and make the game harder and cave in to all the qqing the next day and roll back the changes. Why do MMOs have to be easy mode?! Why can't they be hard?!

Instead of making the game easy, why not make the game harder and maybe slightly increase the rewards, so people have an incentive to play the harder content. So that people in small groups of 2 or 3 have something they can do?

Why do you have to copy WoW and make the game easy?

MMOs used to be hard. EQ1 and UO used to be hard, I was so excited when I read that content got harder, but, alas, this morning we go back to pandering to the World of Warcraft generation, free kills for everyone.

Sigh. See ya out there y'all.

Simple answer - money. ZOS is here to make money, not to make a great MMO. MOST people want to have everything given to them instantly. So, MMOs make it easy - compass, quest markers on maps, simple quests, and buy your way to end game with top of the line equipment from a powerleveler, buy any exploits you need and - proudly strut around like you did something to earn what you have. Not everyone - no - but most, that is what makes money.

Indarqeen

Wildstar is hardcore arcade and will have a huge raid fan base, not like a TES game exploration and coffee

isengrimb16_ESO

Millitum wrote: »

@isengrimb16_ESO‌ again, appreciate the support, it's much appreciated considering the current government where I live is trying to nuke our essential services into outer orbit haha.

I left WoW for much of the same reasons you did, elitist players and an overbloat of keybinds, add-on requirements and ease of combat. I played upto and including the current content in WoW as a Druid Healer (same character since BETA), and it was BORING. I'd likely move around a few times per fight to get out of the red stuff, spam a few heals, lifebloom, magic mushroom the tank (s) and blow off my big heals with Clarry.

It's a great game, and I have no issues with those that still play WoW. I take issues with those that use WoW as the benchmark of what an MMO should be.

Aye, it does have some good ideas. I like how I can queue for LFR and go do some mat farming (WHILE FLYING) while waiting an hour for my queue. Here, well, I've done a couple of dungeons, yes; I like the PUG aspect, but don't like how I feel I should teleport to the dungeon right away so new groupmates can come zone in on me. Just give me a fanfare I can hear while I'm doing getting distracted by my mate and my cat, so I don't look like a jerk and miss a group.

But otherwise, yeah, even as a permanoob, the combat there kind of leaves some to be desired. As a low-threat DPS, the only time I have to worry about anyone coming at me in groups is in the Nazgrim fight (and I still don't understand Assassin's Mark and how to get rid of it, so there's that).

As DPS, though, I should be the highest threat around. Never mind that heavy-armour pansy who is poking at you like a little kid with a wooden sword.

At age 45, I just recently finished a Dragonball marathon. I guess my kids watched in on American TV in the early 90s, but I didn't pay much attention to it back then. Gee, all these chop-socky-mage cross guys all seem to wear light armour? I guess Frieza's armour (what is often erroneously called "Saiyan armour") could count as medium, but that might be ...... STRETCHING it?

Zxaxz

phairdon wrote: »

Thing is though; the increase in damage by veteran level mobs was unintentional. Getting 2 shot killed does not make the game fun just makes questing impossible.
Increased difficulty would be fine if players could rely on finding groups to roam with. Then again do we want all veteran content to be playable by groups only?

2 Shot killed, questing impossible?

(truth)

---

^-(BS)

HandofBane

Tavarde wrote: »

Hasn't anyone considered the possibility that the VR content was intended to be done in groups and not solo in the first place?

Sure, it must be the case... wait. What's that? There are a whole crapload of quests that force you into a solo-only phase where other players can't help you at all? Well damn, there goes that idea.

Zxaxz

Catflinger wrote: »

Funny. If they truly "Wowified" this game, they'd have a big variety of things to do at level 50. Some of those things would be geared towards solo players and some would be geared towards groups. Some would be daily quest content. Some of it would be extremely challenging raid content for the best, most elite players to obtain the best rewards in the game -gear, titles, mounts. That's just on the PvE side of things.

I see no "Wowification" happening. This dev team appears to be stubbornly resisting any temptation to "Wowify".

^ WoW 9 years of cartoon, Curse with a WoW skin, patches, updates, spam/ target/assist. OH, and guess what, SHIAT STILL BROKE, of a game.

"No one play's WoW, they play Curse with a WoW skin.", "Boss is going to attack in: 5 seconds", move out of the red shiat idiot......

Tavarde

That is certainly a significant aspect to consider, Bane.

tripiseanb14_ESO

gilandbb14_ESO wrote: »

Seems a lot of these "hardcore" players who always talk about how great EQ1 was have forgotten about ALL the time spent looking for a group just so you could go camp some spot somewhere for hours on end.
Even dungeons were that way. Zone in, do a camp check, try to find a named spawn point that wasn't already camped, move there.
ahh, those were the days huh?
no

I have not forgot about that at all, it makes your rewards more rewarding. It makes it so everyone and their uncle cant click three times and have an uber sword of uberness. It made it so those who were willing to do tedious things got great rewards and those who wanted to cut corners got mediocre rewards.

I get the notion that games should be "Fun at all times" but, isnt that why we have call of duty? So that you are always running around shooting someone? They already have that Genre, and this Genre only became that instant gratification Genre when Wow came out. I agree that games should be fun, but I also feel that games should be frustrating, which makes achieving things in them more rewarding. Think Contra, Final Fantasy 7, you are gonna die and you are gonna die a lot, but when you win, it feels great.

Like a puzzle, a crossword, a brain teaser, it is going to require some thought and time, but at the end, you are satisfied.

ciannait

tripiseanb14_ESO wrote: »

gilandbb14_ESO wrote: »

Seems a lot of these "hardcore" players who always talk about how great EQ1 was have forgotten about ALL the time spent looking for a group just so you could go camp some spot somewhere for hours on end.
Even dungeons were that way. Zone in, do a camp check, try to find a named spawn point that wasn't already camped, move there.
ahh, those were the days huh?
no

I have not forgot about that at all, it makes your rewards more rewarding. It makes it so everyone and their uncle cant click three times and have an uber sword of uberness. It made it so those who were willing to do tedious things got great rewards and those who wanted to cut corners got mediocre rewards.

I get the notion that games should be "Fun at all times" but, isnt that why we have call of duty? So that you are always running around shooting someone? They already have that Genre, and this Genre only became that instant gratification Genre when Wow came out. I agree that games should be fun, but I also feel that games should be frustrating, which makes achieving things in them more rewarding. Think Contra, Final Fantasy 7, you are gonna die and you are gonna die a lot, but when you win, it feels great.

Like a puzzle, a crossword, a brain teaser, it is going to require some thought and time, but at the end, you are satisfied.

I've already got one job, I don't need nor want another, and I'm not exactly COD's target demo.

AinGeal

One word. Instancing. All of these problems can be solved with proper instancing. Right now you have one dungeon per map that is both meant for groups and is private. The rest are mere extensions of the open world. All public and soloable except for one (I think) per map that is public but meant for groups.

If they treated all the "dungeons" the same and make them all instanced, then this opens up all kinds of possibilities. Click on the door and get presented with the choice between private and public.

With just a simple choice, it would provide something for everyone.

You like it the way it is? Then select 'public' and carry on.
You like to solo? Select 'private' and enter.
You want to group with guildies? Group up then select private.

The difficulty could even automatically adjust to provide an equal challenge regardless if you enter solo or in a full group.

This could be taken a step further with a difficulty slider in game settings. When entering private and solo, the difficulty is set to what you have your slider set to. In a group, difficulty is determined off of the group leader. Entering public makes it no different than it is right now.

The open world is the open world but all those 'dungeons' could be instanced.

Catflinger

Zxaxz wrote: »

Catflinger wrote: »

Funny. If they truly "Wowified" this game, they'd have a big variety of things to do at level 50. Some of those things would be geared towards solo players and some would be geared towards groups. Some would be daily quest content. Some of it would be extremely challenging raid content for the best, most elite players to obtain the best rewards in the game -gear, titles, mounts. That's just on the PvE side of things.

I see no "Wowification" happening. This dev team appears to be stubbornly resisting any temptation to "Wowify".

^ WoW 9 years of cartoon, Curse with a WoW skin, patches, updates, spam/ target/assist. OH, and guess what, SHIAT STILL BROKE, of a game.

"No one play's WoW, they play Curse with a WoW skin.", "Boss is going to attack in: 5 seconds", move out of the red shiat idiot......

I -- I -- think it's trying to communicate

gurugeorgey

I hope they steer a clear course in exactly the direction they've been going. As an MMO, this feels quite fresh to me, in its emphasis on immersion in the virtual world. That's been missing from MMOs for quite some time.

And the TES lore is a great basis to build such an immersive world on. This game is going to have legs, based on people who have been waiting for this kind of minimalist, semi-"realistic" adventuring gameplay for years.

Not every MMO has to be aimed at achievement *** and e-peen wavers.