You nerf weakest class?

Daethz

Hlaren_shortsheath wrote: »

you templars are Not the weakest class. us nightblade duel wield are the weakest class by far miles behind you and all other classes.
nightblade is the bottom of the barrel for both damage output and easilly killed.

Im beginning to think any duelwield class is the weakest.

Bromburak

No, especially when it comes to weapon choice you will find huge advantages on a specific class because of great class line synergies.

If you really want to play that weapon for that reason is a different story. Because style and fun to play is for many players important as well.

But when it comes to efficiency you should combine certain class skills with a specific weapon.

pknecron

AngryNord wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

But Tank for NB is a very logical route if you look at the skills

Nightblades tend to wear medium/light armour, I don't find that particularly logical for a tank (who would rather wear full heavy)?

NB wear any armour they want; JUST LIKE VERY OTHER CLASS IN THE GAME.

People need to get this out of their heads. Classes are just a base set of skills to build on. NB doesn't have to be a rogue any more than a Sorc has to be a mage.

navystylz_ESO

Reco wrote: »

IMO, Nightblade is not meant to play as tank or DPS. It's a sneaky stealthy rogue, solo assassin, distant sniper and a scout.

Night blade not a tank or dps? This is the stupidest thing I've heard. What, are they supposed to heal. You realize there's dps, heal, tank. Support is just utility that falls under one of those trinity.

Sneaky stealthy rogue is/solo assassin/sniper is dps.

navystylz_ESO

Reco wrote: »

Nightblade is out of question. It is an outcast archetype -- not meant to play in groups. Templars are meant to play in groups. Or were. Until this patch.

Yep... you confirmed that you are not thinking clearly (as mean as you can get on these forums without being moderated). Now you're just pulling stuff out your ass and arbitrarily deciding what nightblades should be to justify your idea of templars being the weakest when they aren't.

Obviously Zos decided how Templars should play and that meant nerfs to those powers. Get over it.

AlexDougherty

Bromburak wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Nightblade does decent damage, but even with better armour is less survivable than a sorceror.

Define better armor and survival in detail.

Better armour value for the medium armour, sorcs armour has magic increases, nb armour has health and stamina increases, both have skill points in armour passives. NB armour is actually the best medium armour from all three faction lines I could find (been levelling all four up in stages).

Seriously, my Nightblade in medium armour and a shield dies much quicker than my sorceror did at the same level in light armour and a staff.

Therefore to me Nightblade is far and away the weakest class, can be the most fun in bits, but is definately weaker than the others.

This totally makes no sense, why would you compare apples with oranges?

1. Why are you playing medium armor NB and compare it to light armor Sorc?
And why would someone pick a "weak build" on purpose for class 1 and compare it with a strong magicka build on class 2?

2. What are the skills that both classes are using in your weird comparison?
And why your NB is based on stamina/weapon skills vs. magicka/class skills Sorc?

Seriously, what is your logic behind totally different testing parameters?

My logic is that the sorc with weaker dps and weaker armour shouldn't out survive the nightblade with better dps and stronger armour.

But mine does.

As for the my sorceror being a stronger build, well possibly, but I've bult both up without looking at any online builds, and used the same logic behind both (mine).

Also just to point this out, but both Apples and Oranges are fruit, and edible, and both produce juice.

Luvsfuzzybunnies

Bromburak wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Nightblade does decent damage, but even with better armour is less survivable than a sorceror.

Define better armor and survival in detail.

Seriously, my Nightblade in medium armour and a shield dies much quicker than my sorceror did at the same level in light armour and a staff.

Therefore to me Nightblade is far and away the weakest class, can be the most fun in bits, but is definately weaker than the others.

This totally makes no sense, why would you compare apples with oranges?

1. Why are you playing medium armor NB and compare it to light armor Sorc?
And why would someone pick a "weak build" on purpose for class 1 and compare it with a strong magicka build on class 2?

2. What are the skills that both classes are using in your weird comparison?
And why your NB is based on stamina/weapon skills vs. magicka/class skills Sorc?

Seriously, what is your logic behind totally different testing parameters?

I think his point is that the nightblade class skills are not quite as powerful from a dps standpoint. Seeing as how traditionally this class would be a strictly dps class(and in other games of the same genre would have the highest damage output since that is the only role they could perform). But this is eso and we should be able to play the way we want and still keep up with all other builds as well yet the nb seems to fall behind in this because stamina based builds are vastly inferior to magicka based builds as the game currently stands. Even if they did increase the viability of stamina based builds it would only give other classes who had very strong magicka builds already more sources of damage(increasing the gap of imbalance among classes) and those without such magicka builds an improvement but still inferior skill set. But I think in the end he was trying to compare dps specs overall and your magicka build on sorc and stamina build on nb would be the equivalent counterparts.

dodgehopper_ESO

fiachsidhe wrote: »

Reco wrote: »

Nightblade is out of question. It is an outcast archetype -- not meant to play in groups. Templars are meant to play in groups. Or were. Until this patch.

You really have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
1. Templars have some of the highest AoE damage I've seen. Why do you think you see botters using trains of multi-boxing templars? All run up and mass Aedric Spear everything into dust.

2. Sorry "sneaky stealthy rogue, solo assassin, distant sniper and a scout." are not ROLES. Its Damage/Tank/Healing(Support). You're a fool if you think "solo assassin" isn't a DPS role. and an even bigger one if you think they aren't designed for group play. There is no "solo class". Is Sorcerer a solo class because they can have two pets out at once?

3. You think temps got screwed? Many of Nightblade's passive skills DON'T WORK. AT ALL. and haven't worked since BETA!
This patch nerfed us, rather than fix the abilities that don't work at all. So not only do we have a large chunk of skills that do nothing and waste skill points, but the stuff that DID work, is weaker now.

So cry me a river about how one or two of your abilities aren't steamrolling mobs as much. Nightblades need to be buffed, just so our passives will actually turn on.

That might be true, but I would argue that Nightblade passives are better, and nightblade abilities work better together. Also, Nightblade abilities as a whole work better for tanking believe it or not. Templar makes for a great healer, and that healing ability can help you survive longer, but most of it has a cast time which can be interrupted by bosses. The stuff that doesn't, is unreliable for saving your butt in the same way that a Nightblade or Dragon Knight can directly heal themselves or the way a Sorc or Dragon Knight can create protective shields on itself. Once the Nightblade passives are all working properly they're going to be monsters. I like the Templar class, its my main character, but my one regret while playing him is that I feel like Templar Tank isn't what they had in mind with the character. I'd say the one benefit of a Templar tank is some of the passive spell protection that he gets, and passive-on-activation with dawn wrath. The armor you can get from the Ultimate in aedric line is nice, but at the end of the day too unreliable to really use to tank a chain of bosses in succession. I'm not saying that Templar Tank can't be done, but I am suggesting that it is likely that other builds can actually do it better. It would have been nice if there were more Tanking Morphs in the Restoring Light tree.

Luvsfuzzybunnies

pknecron wrote: »

AngryNord wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

But Tank for NB is a very logical route if you look at the skills

Nightblades tend to wear medium/light armour, I don't find that particularly logical for a tank (who would rather wear full heavy)?

NB wear any armour they want; JUST LIKE VERY OTHER CLASS IN THE GAME.

People need to get this out of their heads. Classes are just a base set of skills to build on. NB doesn't have to be a rogue any more than a Sorc has to be a mage.

You seem to forget that this is the way they want to play though and act like that fact is simply not important. If they cannot find joy or viability in the style they wish to play then it is no longer fun for them. They came in with an idea of what their character should be. They do in fact post and generalize and should say I am this and would like it if I could play like this but they are mad because of exactly what you are pointing out to them. This is eso you should be able to play and be successful with several builds not just ones based on magicka.

Luvsfuzzybunnies

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Bromburak wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Nightblade does decent damage, but even with better armour is less survivable than a sorceror.

Define better armor and survival in detail.

Better armour value for the medium armour, sorcs armour has magic increases, nb armour has health and stamina increases, both have skill points in armour passives. NB armour is actually the best medium armour from all three faction lines I could find (been levelling all four up in stages).

Seriously, my Nightblade in medium armour and a shield dies much quicker than my sorceror did at the same level in light armour and a staff.

Therefore to me Nightblade is far and away the weakest class, can be the most fun in bits, but is definately weaker than the others.

This totally makes no sense, why would you compare apples with oranges?

1. Why are you playing medium armor NB and compare it to light armor Sorc?
And why would someone pick a "weak build" on purpose for class 1 and compare it with a strong magicka build on class 2?

2. What are the skills that both classes are using in your weird comparison?
And why your NB is based on stamina/weapon skills vs. magicka/class skills Sorc?

Seriously, what is your logic behind totally different testing parameters?

My logic is that the sorc with weaker dps and weaker armour shouldn't out survive the nightblade with better dps and stronger armour.

But mine does.

As for the my sorceror being a stronger build, well possibly, but I've bult both up without looking at any online builds, and used the same logic behind both (mine).

Also just to point this out, but both Apples and Oranges are fruit, and edible, and both produce juice.

I approve of this message not that you needed it but for what it's worth its yours.

Bromburak

@Alex
My NB has different sets and my DPS build is light armor.
But thats because i prefer to use my class skills because they are more efficient for my stealth and crit build. Its almost similar to Deagans NB with the exception that i don't play his AOE build and not using vamp skills and that i push my dps with mage guild trigger and 2 skills are changing the main slot more often.

Like in the other NB threads discussed in detail many times, I never had issues with Vet content solo at all and I have different strategies for different mob packs and bosses. And yes it requires to switch sets, slots and skills from time to time.

But this makes any class flexible and you never end up in boring routines because you don't play the same anytimer build every single day!

However, as well you could play a sorc with one set in medium armor with dual daggers and crit surge. His attack speed results in more crits and the resulting heal proccs are insane in melee aoe. Combined with strong class skills and aoe abilities it is a great option and fun to play instead using Destro/Resto combo over and over like everyone.

There are certain strong builds melee and range you are able to play with any class and they all have advantages and disadvantages. All together you have a lot of options and you cannot make it dependent from armor only. First you need to see and plan the whole picture of your build and then you put everything together. And it totally makes no sense when you are trying to copy the strength of an individual class build to any other class because it won't work!

AlexDougherty

Bromburak wrote: »

@Alex
And it totally makes no sense when you are trying to copy the strength of an individual class build to any other class because it won't work!

Maybe what I meant didn't come across well. I meant that I had tried to visualise what the classes should be, and what stats and skills they need. Not that I was copying the buuild from one to the other.

Merely that it was my logic behind all my builds, and my choices for them.

bg22

Reco wrote: »

I chose Templar because I want to play both as tank and healer. Before the Craglorn patch, I noticed how other classes were dealing so much more damage. I thought ok, but I want to also heal so I will live with it and I won't discard Templar.

Now I come to read the Craglorn patch notes only to find out that the only really useful skills of Templar have been nerfed even more?! Are you insane?

BTW, you say Binding Jabs were nerfed because of too high single-target damage potential. Then why did you nerf the alternative morf Puncturing Sweep too?

You said you "wanted to tank/heal" then complain about a DPS nerf, which regards neither tanking nor Healing.

gunsofdeschain

Try taking a melee NB to a dungeon. Just try it once please. You could be the most biased person in the world, and you'll still need to admit that NB as a melee is useless in a dungeon for most of the time when it really matters.

F7sus4

SORCS FOR TEH TANKS!!!!!
TEMPLARS FOR TEH STEALTH!!!!!
DRAGONKNIGHTS FOR TEH CASTERS!!!!111oneoneone

Reco

Dimar wrote: »

Dude your missing the point. Templar's are a tank class. The only way to hold agro is to do DPS. The only,ONLY, dps we had was bitting jabs, that could hold agro. Now BJ doesn't accomplish that. That means we aren't a viable tank, as we don't have a dps option in any configuration, we get to be healer's and NOTHING else. No tank, no DPS, nothing but sad heals.

Exactly this.

You can also waste your skill slot on a useless taunt ability to hold agro, but this will work only once. Then the boss will retarget non-tank members again, as the devs themselves said recently.

Reco

navystylz_ESO wrote: »

Obviously Zos decided how Templars should play and that meant nerfs to those powers. Get over it.

Polite companies don't do that. You know you invest months of hard work and energy to grow and develop your character of a given type (tank+healer) only to learn that "No, we're changing it now. You wasted your time, get over it."

Sorry, that's flat out rude and a reason to stop paying for this game. They had alpha and beta tests for that. I'm not a beta tester or lab rat. I'm a paying customer.

I've never seen anyone say that Templars were over-powered. In spite of that, they are being nerfed. I mean, what the ...?!

Tr1cksh0t

PBpsy wrote: »

NO. Every class should in theory do whatever they want.
Nightblades are probably better tanks now than DKs. NO class is not intended for anything. But Tank for NB is a very logical route if you look at the skills

Heard of magma armor?

Drazticulous

I love my Templar!!!! (end rant)

TRIP233

Reco wrote: »

IMO, Nightblade is not meant to play as tank or DPS. It's a sneaky stealthy rogue, solo assassin, distant sniper and a scout.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFYBU_MRNag Worst Tank Ever.

ShintaiDK

F7sus4 wrote: »

The problem with class balance is as follows:

- Dragonknight, Templar, Sorcerer:
Class-skills provide mostly damage resource that weapon-skills complement.

- Nightblade:
Class-skills provide mostly utility resource that weapon-skills complement.

Therefore, nerfing weapon-skills means weakening Nightblades in the first place.

Templar is not a DPS class. And the only remotely close to DPS they have is biting jabs spam. A NB can easily out DPS any templar.

Pewpie

AngryNord wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

But Tank for NB is a very logical route if you look at the skills

Nightblades tend to wear medium/light armour, I don't find that particularly logical for a tank (who would rather wear full heavy)?

I think NB lack a CC to be able to be good tanks. Like talons for DK. Or am i wrong, do we actually have any good aoe cc?

Shaun98ca2

sylviermoone wrote: »

I can't, in any way, agree with Templar's being the weakest class. My hubby plays a 2H Med Arm Templar, and he just absolutely DESTROYS everything. Most of the time, I can barely get a hit on whatever we happen to be fighting, unless it's a super elite or something. And yeah, I play a NB.

He's not tanking, though, obviously. But it seems to me, from watching my hubby play his Templar, that there are plenty of other class skills that can take aggro. Biting Jabs is not the ONLY ability Templars have. Nor is it really even the best, imo.

Well when people are crying that its the Templar's "only DPS" ability I believe what they are really trying to say is....

The ability is clearly the most powerful ability on the Templar and not in line with the rest of the Templar's current abilities.

ShintaiDK

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

Well when people are crying that its the Templar's "only DPS" ability I believe what they are really trying to say is....

The ability is clearly the most powerful ability on the Templar and not in line with the rest of the Templar's current abilities.

Maybe a 50% damage reduction is coming in the next patch. It was obviously already too cheap for the most expensive magicka based "DPS" skill

Nimerian

The amount of stupidity on the developer's behalf is insane... I really wanna quit this game and Ill probably will. They nerfed my main class (that was pretty weak to begin with) while you have vampire DK STILL (after the supposed "nerf" of that synergy) roaming free killing 10-30 people at once... this is ridiculous and you make no sense. Learn your job while there is still very little time (most people already quit) and stop releasing new maps while the game is still broken.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

I pushed levelling my NB alt last night. Khajiit 1h/shield in heavy armour.

I am afraid that those complaining that NB is weak class, they do not know how to play one.

At level 20 and rolls anything on it's pass. Even got him to Cyrodiil and is doing better compared to my VR3 Templar.

And seal clubbed some DW medium armoured NBs & DKs level 50+ last night, like they were low level mobs.

To those QQ that NB is weak, please carry on do so. Keep the QQ going.
If I can pull miracles right now with my low level 20 Khajiit NB Tank, I cannot imagine how it will be if he receives a buff.

Shaun98ca2

I also believe that people rely WAY to heavily on their hotbar abilities. I run a Templar in full Heavy Armor with a 2 Handed Sword. My biggest issue is I like to sprint everywhere so I tend to have no choice BUT to rely on my Light/Heavy Attack till I get my Stamina back. Doing this I have learn to play a LOT better than simply relying on my hotbar abilities.

the.dzeneralb16_ESO

The weakest class is most likely NB. Don't believe so?

Reminder: There is literally a topic, only for NB's, about what there is still to fix about the class and what theyre working on. It is a very long list

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/100627/nightblade-update/p1

DeLindsay

NB is certainly behind Templar (overall) in ESO, for now, but 1.2 is looking to be a nice bump to NB abilities and fixing a ton of the issues it has. Tanking with NB is a pleasure, as long as it isn't a ton of mobs (ST is very easy). And NB should be wearing 5pc Heavy / 2pc Light to tank in. It's not that you can't get enough armor/resists going Medium it's the passives in the Heavy Armor tree are too good to pass up as a tank. Healing as a NB is decent, but Sorc is better and obviously Templar is superior.

DPS wise, NB is quite good at Ranged ST, but too few want to develop a character to only attack one enemy. Melee NB is what's the hardest part atm, as it's so utterly broken and an overall poor choice until a balance push. That said I can still push ~800 DPS with 4-6 mobs in Craglorn at VR6 (AOE) doing AE or Burials.

Even with all the issues NB has right now, I can comfortably take 4 mobs solo with 6+ mobs being "hard mode" but doable, as a ST build. Of course I need a lot of room to kite/CC in order to pull that off where a DK/Sorc/Templar just stands in the middle of the group and blows them up lol. To the OP, it always sucks when the class you like to play gets any change that is dis-favorable to how you play, but once you learn to deal with the changes it's not nearly as bad as it seems right after it happens.

Decimus_Rex

navystylz_ESO wrote: »

Reco wrote: »

Nightblade is out of question. It is an outcast archetype -- not meant to play in groups. Templars are meant to play in groups. Or were. Until this patch.

Yep... you confirmed that you are not thinking clearly (as mean as you can get on these forums without being moderated). Now you're just pulling stuff out your ass and arbitrarily deciding what nightblades should be to justify your idea of templars being the weakest when they aren't.

Obviously Zos decided how Templars should play and that meant nerfs to those powers. Get over it.

Let me put a hole in that drum you love to beat

some of us want to play Nb as a rogue

we know Nb can be homogenized to a sorc or tank

NOT INTRESTED!!

Fix the broken s^#t so the rogue archytype can be played

STOP

With the play it the other way because you think we dont get that it can play as sorc or tank

WE KNOW

Go tell the temps to play the dest/rest sorc build they havnt heard that tired argument yet