Since Elusive Mist was Nerfed Bolt Escape NEEDS to be Nerfed too

SilverWF

Bolt Escape is OK.

NordJitsu

@Baphomet‌

Gave you a well deserved lol for that one. Not sure what your point about Bolt Escape was though because I still didn't see any arguments, evidence, or even anecdotes.

I'd love to see some of my "crusading against other classes" though or me saying that Sorcerers are weak.

But really I don't expect you to substantiate those claims any more than you have substantiated the claim that Bolt Escape is over powered (which is to say not at all.)

The ability is fine as is. The focus of ZOS's balancing efforts right now should be on buffing Templars and Night Blades, fixing Daedric Summoning, improving melee weapon skills, and reducing the power of a handful of DK abilities or else providing better counter play options for them.

There's a poll out there on this forum where about 60% of the respondents said BE is fine as is. Considering that the forums are notoriously filled with QQing and dissatisfied players, I'd say that's an impressive super majority response.

Baphomet

@NordJitsu‌

Many thanks for the laughs, facepalms and sighs over months, as well.

If the point about bolt escape still eludes you, maybe re-read the thread? Or the scores of them on the same subject?

To the point, I can understand that many people don't want to see an almost guaranteed escape mechanism taken away from them. Maybe they don't want their bolt escape changed, but I would like to see mine changed.

Playing a VR sorcerer, too, I know all to well what this ability is capable of, and would like to see it changed to have a 1 second cast time because I do not want to be able to disengage so easily from combat. It is bad for the overall gameplay - and I might get tempted to use it like so many others are.

NordJitsu

@Baphomet‌

More blanket claims with out any sort of evidence or supporting argumentation.

I think the quality of the arguments for and against the skill more or less speak for themselves here. I haven't seen anyone really explain in a concrete or intelligent way what they think is wrong with the skill. Those who have tried were soon shown the numerous factual inaccuracies with what they had written.

What's left is just pure biased opinion with nothing to back it up.

If BE is really over powered, lets see some videos of Sorcs using it to do something other classes couldn't have done. You know, like the videos of the DKs solo'ing Craglorn dungeons and Trials. Put something substantive on the table or just admit that you've got nothing.

Baphomet

@NordJitsu‌

The arguments regarding bolt escape's current status are more than substantial and numerous.

The only thing stopping someone from acknowledging them would exactly be due to denying obvious facts or pure biased opinions.

NordJitsu

@Baphomet‌

Are you working on a video? Or a screen shot of your death recap showing how OP Bolt Escape killed you? Anything?

Baphomet

You need a video in order to understand the game mechanics?

ishilb14_ESO

@scy22b14_ESO‌ @Baphomet‌ @NordJitsu‌
Please stop using this thread as a platform to bash each other, go to 4chan and do it there.

@majestic862_ESO‌

1. You're bad at this game if you think that is true
2. BE itself doesn't do damage unless you're on top of the person. The morph Streak does do damage, ~220 damage at the cost of 250 magicka, if you think that's a lot you're bad. The CC isn't a stun, it's a disorient, which means if you get hit by something other than a stun or disorient then you'll automatically come out of it, and if you think you can't stun break out of it, then I don't think you know the key combo to stun break (hold down right mouse button and press left mouse button) and it does make you immune to subsequent Streaks. Better yet, why not be smart and block in between your attacks like good players do, which reduces the damage streak does to ~90 and blocks the disorient. I think you're just bad at this game.
3. Do you even know the mechanics behind ultimate point and alliance point generation lol. Plus they nerfed the amount of ultimate points generated by AoE damage; I get about 6 ultimate Streaking through 4 people. And seriously, if 40 people can't kill a sorc, those 40 people are so bad that they have no right to complain.
4. Depends on the situation, after a 75 second fight, most sorcs are pretty much out of magicka, they'll be able to BE at most twice, but most likely only once.
5. Have you considered that maybe a sorc used a stun break and is therefore immune to subsequent stuns and knockdowns? lol

And now for my finisher:
Those sorcs you see teleporting around a lot, are wearing full light armor. I dare you to try and run around in full light armor without a teleport or stealth ability ( and without using dragon blood since a sorc's self heal requires them to stand in one spot and channel it which means it can be interrupted) You try doing that and tell me if you think it's even slightly easy.

Nijjion

Orizuru wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Every game seems to have that 1 class that can escape all fights, and the noobs that think its fine

Warhammer Had Shamans
in Rift it was Nightblade/Bards Combo
in GW2 it was Thieves
and in this game its Sorcs

So running away from a fight that you are losing to reset and try again is not allowed?

In my opinion the guy who stands his ground and dies when he should have run away is the noob. History doesn't reveal General Custer to be some great military genius for standing his ground, it just shows that he was a fool.

The problem is only having 1 class able to do this... give it to all or none at all.

Teargrants

Nijjion wrote: »

The problem is only having 1 class able to do this... give it to all or none at all.

I can haz DK heals then?

Nijjion

Kirsika wrote: »

Nijjion wrote: »

The problem is only having 1 class able to do this... give it to all or none at all.

I can haz DK heals then?

You have Dark exchange which also gives you magicka... that's pretty awesome. Don't see me QQing over that... well it does give you pretty endless stream of BE spam in exchange of stam.

@NordJitsu What experience do you have in PvP games by the way? Just curious.

Teargrants

And, do you know what happens if a sorc tries to use dark exchange in combat? It's completely interruptable for the 4 sec channel. The only way to make it viable is to bolt 3-4 times and then channel. Not to mention the full channel eats up about 80% of your stamina...

ishilb14_ESO

Nijjion wrote: »

The problem is only having 1 class able to do this... give it to all or none at all.

Sorcs don't have an instant cast self heal, sorcs don't have an invis, so you want sorcs just to be punching bags? that flawed logic of yours lol get good. The only good way I see to balance this is put a 1.5 second cooldown from when the last BE ended

Halrloprillalar

Nijjion wrote: »

Orizuru wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Every game seems to have that 1 class that can escape all fights, and the noobs that think its fine

Warhammer Had Shamans
in Rift it was Nightblade/Bards Combo
in GW2 it was Thieves
and in this game its Sorcs

So running away from a fight that you are losing to reset and try again is not allowed?

In my opinion the guy who stands his ground and dies when he should have run away is the noob. History doesn't reveal General Custer to be some great military genius for standing his ground, it just shows that he was a fool.

The problem is only having 1 class able to do this... give it to all or none at all.

I want an in combat stealth then.

NordJitsu

Nijjion wrote: »

Orizuru wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Every game seems to have that 1 class that can escape all fights, and the noobs that think its fine

Warhammer Had Shamans
in Rift it was Nightblade/Bards Combo
in GW2 it was Thieves
and in this game its Sorcs

So running away from a fight that you are losing to reset and try again is not allowed?

In my opinion the guy who stands his ground and dies when he should have run away is the noob. History doesn't reveal General Custer to be some great military genius for standing his ground, it just shows that he was a fool.

The problem is only having 1 class able to do this... give it to all or none at all.

Fine.

Then can I please have a chain pull, an instant self heal, in combat invisibility, and group heals without a Resto-staff?

Halrloprillalar

Baphomet wrote: »

@NordJitsu‌

The arguments regarding bolt escape's current status are more than substantial and numerous.

The only thing stopping someone from acknowledging them would exactly be due to denying obvious facts or pure biased opinions.

No. They aren't. You are actually making *** up.

The gist of every argument against BE:

"I can't use my counters effectively enough to catch a sorc that wasn't going to kill me anyway but now I can't score the AP I feel are *owed* to me"

Now think about what a 'biased opinion' is.

galiumb16_ESO

As a non-sorc I think Bolt should be buffed.

It is important that a game has a focus ability that the entire 'we want nerfs' crowd can focus on and pour out their anger. Bolt is perfect for this because while bolt has some effect in combat, specially small man, its overall impact upon the game is actually pretty small.

We all know the moment Bolt gets nerfed you will all pile on to something else, and that something else might be something that matters and you have counters for that you are too lazy to use, so it is best for everyone that bolt actually get buffed so that more angst and anger can be focused there, and kept there for the duration of the game.

Halrloprillalar

Baphomet wrote: »

You need a video in order to understand the game mechanics?

you need a primer in philosophy to understand opinion vs. fact?

Baphomet

@Halrloprillalar‌
Right, I almost forgot that I've played a VR sorcerer for about 4 months, primarily PvPing and dueling, on the PTS server so I must have zero idea what I am talking about. That's why I must be making things up. I know what a sorcerer can and cannot do pretty well.

That being said, sorcerers absolutely need this ability, and it needs to be powerful and efficient, too. However, right now it goes a bit against the overall gameplay with the ability to escape almost every situation unscathed, which is why it should be altered a little. Other sorcerer skills could be empowered to compensate.

Huckdabuck

We must haz nerfz cuz stuffz.

NordJitsu

@Baphomet‌

That's reasonable (buffing to compensate) but it seems unnecessary.

Bolt Escape already has good counter play options and its utility really isn't all that impressive. In group fights its best because the sorc can get away and drop a forward camp. But in group fights, you'll likely have a Sorc of your own to chase them down and stun them until the group can catch up.

Really Sorcs need the ability for Survivability. So if you nerfed this skill you'd have to buff the Sorc healing or damage mitigation in particular. Maybe reworking Dark Exchange so that it was an instant self heal with more healing and magicka regen over time (like Green Dragon's Blood but for Stamina.)

It just seems like a lot of work to fix something that isn't broken.

Halrloprillalar

Baphomet wrote: »

@Halrloprillalar‌
Right, I almost forgot that I've played a VR sorcerer for about 4 months, primarily PvPing and dueling, on the PTS server so I must have zero idea what I am talking about. That's why I must be making things up. I know what a sorcerer can and cannot do pretty well.

That being said, sorcerers absolutely need this ability, and it needs to be powerful and efficient, too. However, right now it goes a bit against the overall gameplay with the ability to escape almost every situation unscathed, which is why it should be altered a little. Other sorcerer skills could be empowered to compensate.

Then it is possible you are a little biased towards the 1v1 scenario? It is very strong in such a situation, especially against a sorc-unpracticed opponent, but it hardly stands out in a group fight. And I hope you don't think that games will balance PVP for 1v1.

I would even go so far as to say sorcs don't need any real buffs in other skills (except pets... how much more useless can they be...) but BE in itself doesn't really need a nerf. Even a slight cost increase would be fine with me to tone down the spammability/traveling aspect but it really won't change anything at the core of the class and the ability to get away from bad players.

Nijjion

NordJitsu wrote: »

Nijjion wrote: »

Orizuru wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Every game seems to have that 1 class that can escape all fights, and the noobs that think its fine

Warhammer Had Shamans
in Rift it was Nightblade/Bards Combo
in GW2 it was Thieves
and in this game its Sorcs

So running away from a fight that you are losing to reset and try again is not allowed?

In my opinion the guy who stands his ground and dies when he should have run away is the noob. History doesn't reveal General Custer to be some great military genius for standing his ground, it just shows that he was a fool.

The problem is only having 1 class able to do this... give it to all or none at all.

Fine.

Then can I please have a chain pull, an instant self heal, in combat invisibility, and group heals without a Resto-staff?

Will i'm not saying it should be completely deleted. I don't think anyone has said that really... I'm just wanting it to be used a couple of times... not the 20+ times it can be used in a minute. And make them have insane mobility in a RvR game which noone should have.

scy22b14_ESO

ishilpatelb14_ESO wrote: »

@scy22b14_ESO‌ @Baphomet‌ @NordJitsu‌
Please stop using this thread as a platform to bash each other, go to 4chan and do it there.

1. You're bad at this game if you think that is true.

Heh.

Halrloprillalar

Nijjion wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

Nijjion wrote: »

Orizuru wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Every game seems to have that 1 class that can escape all fights, and the noobs that think its fine

Warhammer Had Shamans
in Rift it was Nightblade/Bards Combo
in GW2 it was Thieves
and in this game its Sorcs

So running away from a fight that you are losing to reset and try again is not allowed?

In my opinion the guy who stands his ground and dies when he should have run away is the noob. History doesn't reveal General Custer to be some great military genius for standing his ground, it just shows that he was a fool.

The problem is only having 1 class able to do this... give it to all or none at all.

Fine.

Then can I please have a chain pull, an instant self heal, in combat invisibility, and group heals without a Resto-staff?

Will i'm not saying it should be completely deleted. I don't think anyone has said that really... I'm just wanting it to be used a couple of times... not the 20+ times it can be used in a minute. And make them have insane mobility in a RvR game which noone should have.

Have you heard of... rapid maneuver?

Huckdabuck

Halrloprillalar wrote: »

Have you heard of... rapid maneuver?

Or it's awesome morph......retreating maneuver?

Xsorus

lol... did you really just compare retreating maneuver to BE?

Also Nord, You can't be chained pulled in this game, because Pull gives you CC immunity, It's also ass for pretty much everything besides the few idiots who aren't blocking in this game.

If you're getting chain pulled, Guess what, you're one of those few idiots.

The rest of the herp a derp responses i'm seeing are easily as stupid "Well I want in combat stealth so i can accomplish the same thing as Bolt Escape" nevermind the fact that being able to escape every single fight with impunity is whats overpowered in the first place. It doesn't matter if its stealth or bolt escape...Though Bolt Escape is currently the better option.

I mean bloody christ, I feel like i'm having the same damn argument I had in Guild Wars 2 with those morons and Thieves Stealth...They used equally stupid "suggestions" on how to counter Thieves Stealth..which involved mostly "Just AoE the area" completely ignoring the fact that I have a thief, I made videos of a thief.. so I knew how bloody stupid that suggestion was.

This game has the same thing..Only now its moronic Sorcs telling you stupid suggestions like "Just charge the Sorc" Which only works if the Sorc Goes in ONE direction and is lagged. Against anyone who's not dumber then a box of rocks you will not catch that Sorc with Charge.

Orizuru

Nijjion wrote: »

Orizuru wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Every game seems to have that 1 class that can escape all fights, and the noobs that think its fine

Warhammer Had Shamans
in Rift it was Nightblade/Bards Combo
in GW2 it was Thieves
and in this game its Sorcs

So running away from a fight that you are losing to reset and try again is not allowed?

In my opinion the guy who stands his ground and dies when he should have run away is the noob. History doesn't reveal General Custer to be some great military genius for standing his ground, it just shows that he was a fool.

The problem is only having 1 class able to do this... give it to all or none at all.

So you want the Halo fix then?

I don't see a problem with one class having a better escape mechanic than another.

I don't see this a "Sorcs are OP" problem. I do agree that the class is overly represented in PVP and I agree this skill is one of the primary reasons, but I think that fact shows a problem with some of the other classes that needs addressed rather than a reason to nerf one of the two classes that functions well in VR.

If classes were represented more equally in pvp, then I don't think BE would be as big of a problem because you would have enough variety of classes to deal with them as a group. In an ideal setting where there are two groups of players engaging in combat with 8-10 players on each side of the battlefield a coordinated group could effectively deal with a BE spamming sorc with proper strategy and tactics. I think it's really only a problem right now because there are a lot more Sorcs on each side of the battlefield using BE frequently and the end result is there are simply too many of them to single out one at a time and deal with as a coordinated group.

With the current state of class balance though, I don't think it's prudent to call anything OP because there are far too many builds that are really under-powered and cannot effectively deal with better performing builds that Sorcs and DKs enjoy.

Glurin

Orizuru wrote: »

I don't see this a "Sorcs are OP" problem. I do agree that the class is overly represented in PVP and I agree this skill is one of the primary reasons, but I think that fact shows a problem with some of the other classes that needs addressed rather than a reason to nerf one of the two classes that functions well in VR.

I think it has more to do with people seeing all these threads with people bitching about it and thinking that it must therefore be OP and they want in on it. I doubt if even half of the newer sorcerers out there even bothered to do any research on it beyond counting the number of threads with titles like "OMG! BOLT ESCAPE SO OP!! NERF NOW OR GAME IS DOOMED!!!"

Halrloprillalar

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

lol... did you really just compare retreating maneuver to BE?

Also Nord, You can't be chained pulled in this game, because Pull gives you CC immunity, It's also ass for pretty much everything besides the few idiots who aren't blocking in this game.

If you're getting chain pulled, Guess what, you're one of those few idiots.

The rest of the herp a derp responses i'm seeing are easily as stupid "Well I want in combat stealth so i can accomplish the same thing as Bolt Escape" nevermind the fact that being able to escape every single fight with impunity is whats overpowered in the first place. It doesn't matter if its stealth or bolt escape...Though Bolt Escape is currently the better option.

I mean bloody christ, I feel like i'm having the same damn argument I had in Guild Wars 2 with those morons and Thieves Stealth...They used equally stupid "suggestions" on how to counter Thieves Stealth..which involved mostly "Just AoE the area" completely ignoring the fact that I have a thief, I made videos of a thief.. so I knew how bloody stupid that suggestion was.

This game has the same thing..Only now its moronic Sorcs telling you stupid suggestions like "Just charge the Sorc" Which only works if the Sorc Goes in ONE direction and is lagged. Against anyone who's not dumber then a box of rocks you will not catch that Sorc with Charge.

two can play this game:

If you are chain pulling someone as they use breakout, guess what, you're an idiot.

The rest of the herp a derp responses I'm seeing are easily as stupid as "well I don't have a skill like that but I should because no one should ever be able to escape anyone ever". It doesn't matter that there are 4 classes in game and they all have their pros and cons.

I mean bloody christ, I feel like I'm having the same damn argument I had in Rift with those morons and Rift Storm+teleport warriors... They used equally stupid "suggestions" like "walk out of the rift storm" and "run away from a warrior" which mostly involved avoiding combat with one in the first place, completely ignoring the fact that the team that had more warriors with riftstorm, won every time. So I know how bloody stupid that suggestion was.

This game has the same thing. Only it's moronic DKs telling you stupid suggestions like "just dodge the talons" and "don't be in melee range" which only works if you are not already in their bat swarm+banner+aoe of death and they are taking their time to kill you. Against anyone who's not dumber than a box of rocks you will not survive a DK with invasion and talons+banner+whip.

Not that I fully condone anything of what you've said or really believe 100% of the above. But I think I've made my point.

RM is similar to BE only in the aspect of being an escape/travel ability (especially with the morph). I did not say they were equivalent, but I suggested it to someone who claimed they couldn't 'get away from combat easily'.