For those who think shields are not an offensive weapon and bash was rightfully nerfed

TheGrandAlliance

"PVT_Parts wrote: »

I just have to ask. Where did you get your BA in History?

...uhm where did you?

...it appears from the same school that teaches that Global Warming is greatest hoax perputrated on the American people as well...

Hornex

Maverick827 wrote: »

Hornex wrote: »

To be honest the shield bash Nerf did wonders for me. Its made a me a much better player since I had to totally rethink my class. I now have a tanky DPS DK that can kill players just as fast as I could with shield bash.

However this time there is a sequence to the attack and involves timing of abilities rather than spamming one thing.

I'm calling your bluff, what's your new build, and how much did it cost for you to switch to it from a shield bash build?

3 Re-specs

Ransack
Lava Whip
Green Dragon Blood
Shield Assault
Defensive Stance
Standard

Class in Group search is classified as a Tank/DPS

Some abilities could be switched around a little such as Defensive stance could be changed to Dragon First Scale or Spiked Armor

5 heavy Armour 2 medium

All attributes in Health

Stamina enchants for armor

Full passives for heavy, medium and sword and shield.

Destro staff build or Bow for secondary weps

Works well for group and solo play.

shinji2k

I figured they would add a cooldown since I can still cancel animations with bash. I never used any of the jewelry so I'm only down 50 dps.

PVT_Parts

TheGrandAlliance wrote: »

"PVT_Parts wrote: »

I just have to ask. Where did you get your BA in History?

...uhm where did you?

...it appears from the same school that teaches that Global Warming is greatest hoax perputrated on the American people as well...

I do have a BA in History. You really think I wouldn't post that statement not expecting someone to comment this? I'm just surprised it took 4 pages. Also, maybe they did teach that global warming is a myth, I got a BA in History, not science. Actually, They did teach about global warming NOT being a myth when I took a Renewable Natural Resource class for an elective.

PayneTK

Why nerf so hard something that everybody loved. Maybe nerf it a little but not like this!! It had great synergy with everything and made me enjoy combat altogether. Now the combat sucks.

PVT_Parts

For all you commenting about how shield bash shouldn't do more damage than a 2h sword attack. When did I ever say that it should. Maybe the problem is not that shield bash did too much damage, but that your attacks don't do enough. I never said your attacks shouldn't do as much or more. I don't PVP so I couldn't care less about other players damage, I just want to play my perfectly viable play style that was not an I win button in PVE. I still died fairly often, just not as much as when I was dual wield. I did dual wield from 20-vr2 then did S/S from VR2-4. Now I have to learn a new play style because neither my old build or my new are viable anymore at this lvl content. For all I care, make your 2h do 5000 damage. It won't effect me in the slightest.

JosephChip

PVT_Parts wrote: »

"Shields are not supposed to do damage" " shields were never used to do damage, only block" These are all quotes from other threads. I just have to ask. Where did you get your BA in History?

EDIT: For those saying shield bash shouldn't do as much damage as a regular attack. What are you basing this off of? Shield bash has a stamina cost, normal attack does not, so it SHOULD do more damage.

I love how you first talk about history then base your argument on a purely gameplay perspective. Seems legit.
A couple of things: shields do not deal nearly as much damage as proper weapons do in real life too. In fact shields weren't even used for warfare during lengthy periods in history.
The reason why it costs stamina is because you are blocking while attacking, two in one, and it is a counter to powered/channeled/non-insta-cast abilities that you should only use at the right time.
Not only this, but previously it used to deal more than double the damage from a main weapon attack, while costing very little stamina and being spammable even quicker than light attacks. Sorry but you can easily see why you can't have all of this. The purpose of bash is situational countering, not damage dealing.

Silverglass66

PVT_Parts wrote: »

I do have a BA in History.

And yet you got your info about the Spartans completely wrong, in fact almost every piece if information in that post was historically incorrect.

Loco_Mofo

PVT_Parts wrote: »

For all you commenting about how shield bash shouldn't do more damage than a 2h sword attack. When did I ever say that it should. Maybe the problem is not that shield bash did too much damage, but that your attacks don't do enough. I never said your attacks shouldn't do as much or more. I don't PVP so I couldn't care less about other players damage, I just want to play my perfectly viable play style that was not an I win button in PVE. I still died fairly often, just not as much as when I was dual wield. I did dual wield from 20-vr2 then did S/S from VR2-4. Now I have to learn a new play style because neither my old build or my new are viable anymore at this lvl content. For all I care, make your 2h do 5000 damage. It won't effect me in the slightest.

Curious. What was your play style? Hold block and spam bash?

Sword & shield is still very much viable, I'm still using it and prefer it over the other melee choices. My play style hasn't changed because of the patch and it's still very effective.

PVT_Parts

Silverglass66 wrote: »

PVT_Parts wrote: »

I do have a BA in History.

And yet you got your info about the Spartans completely wrong, in fact almost every piece if information in that post was historically incorrect.

Not completely wrong. Just my statement about the Spartans throwing their spears. I was confusing them with the Roman Hastati and their pilum. An honest mistake. However The Spartans did use their shield very often as a blunt and killing weapon as described by this short excerpt.

"The Old Bashing Shield
The main purpose of the Spartan shield was defensive; however Spartans also used it to bash their opponents. This could be to stun them, knock them down or get some room to use another weapon. The shield could also be used as a killing weapon outright, its weight and thin edge making it a superb blunt weapon. The hoplite shield, or aspis (although it is commonly called a ‘hoplon’), was heavy, weighing about 30 pounds. They were constructed out of wood with an outer layer of bronze. Due to its defensive nature, Spartans using it as a weapon could gain the advantage of surprise. Being clubbed to death by heavy shield may have even been more unpleasant then being hacked apart by a Kopis!"

Also, you seem to take my comment about bulky and slow meaning heavy. They were not as heavy as people think, but they are long, unwieldy and slower than many other weapon forms. I'm not sure where you get "in fact almost every piece if information in that post was historically incorrect." from that comment when only 1 of 3 facts that could even be deemed as historical were incorrect and only because I was confusing Spartans and Romans. Sure they didn't throw their spears, but we aren't discussing what they did with their spears here.

Maverick827

Hornex wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

Hornex wrote: »

To be honest the shield bash Nerf did wonders for me. Its made a me a much better player since I had to totally rethink my class. I now have a tanky DPS DK that can kill players just as fast as I could with shield bash.

However this time there is a sequence to the attack and involves timing of abilities rather than spamming one thing.

I'm calling your bluff, what's your new build, and how much did it cost for you to switch to it from a shield bash build?

3 Re-specs

Ransack
Lava Whip
Green Dragon Blood
Shield Assault
Defensive Stance
Standard

Class in Group search is classified as a Tank/DPS

Some abilities could be switched around a little such as Defensive stance could be changed to Dragon First Scale or Spiked Armor

5 heavy Armour 2 medium

All attributes in Health

Stamina enchants for armor

Full passives for heavy, medium and sword and shield.

Destro staff build or Bow for secondary weps

Works well for group and solo play.

It is mathematically impossible for this build to kill "just as fast" (your words) as the old shield bash build. You're maxing out stamina, but you're only great offensive attack (Lava Whip) uses magicka?

Also,

3 Re-specs

This part is unacceptable. If they're going to make an entire spec unusuable, they should have offered a full, free respec.

KracsNZ

I have sword/shield as one of my Templar specs (main is heals and have DPS off-spec). I agree there should of been a change but am very disappointed in the heavy handed approach with the nerf. The culprit that caused the nerf was obviously the medium armor (crit) + 3 piece bash jewelery (dmg), particularly highlighted with DKs due to their other abilities + root + self heal.

Shield bash wasn't something I spammed, but was part of my rotation and a great finisher, i.e. immovable/shielded assault/puncture/biting jabs/backlash etc...

The nerf has hit tankie builds very hard since sword/shield doesn't have decent stam dump abilities with decent range or AoE, i.e. two hand has cleave, dual wield has whirlwind, bow has multiple abilities. Sword/shield is single target, with limited range, i.e. puncture does decent damage but only 5 meters single target (great for the debuff). Power Bash is decent as a stun (terrible as dmg), but it's ridiculous cost (cost more to stun than to stam break out of it) makes it useless (shielded assault much better for this, even in close quarters). What does that leave, Silver Bolts from fighters guild (low DPS vs. non-vamp/ww)? That left shield bash.

Kind of wished they'd left the dmg as is but removed bash jewelery and shield crit /shrug. Other mechanics like you're not blocking while bashing could of helped to (i.e. 0.5s timer if you bash, so if you shield bash spam at least you've got no mitigation).

Oh well, guess I'll leave my tank build for dungeon bosses and stick to my heals/dps builds for everything else.

Korah_Eaglecry

Maverick827 wrote: »

Hornex wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

Hornex wrote: »

To be honest the shield bash Nerf did wonders for me. Its made a me a much better player since I had to totally rethink my class. I now have a tanky DPS DK that can kill players just as fast as I could with shield bash.

However this time there is a sequence to the attack and involves timing of abilities rather than spamming one thing.

I'm calling your bluff, what's your new build, and how much did it cost for you to switch to it from a shield bash build?

3 Re-specs

Ransack
Lava Whip
Green Dragon Blood
Shield Assault
Defensive Stance
Standard

Class in Group search is classified as a Tank/DPS

Some abilities could be switched around a little such as Defensive stance could be changed to Dragon First Scale or Spiked Armor

5 heavy Armour 2 medium

All attributes in Health

Stamina enchants for armor

Full passives for heavy, medium and sword and shield.

Destro staff build or Bow for secondary weps

Works well for group and solo play.

It is mathematically impossible for this build to kill "just as fast" (your words) as the old shield bash build. You're maxing out stamina, but you're only great offensive attack (Lava Whip) uses magicka?

Also,

3 Re-specs

This part is unacceptable. If they're going to make an entire spec unusuable, they should have offered a full, free respec.

I have quite a bit of my Class Abilities and weapon abilities Unlocked. Why? So that I can transition to a build better suited to my situation.

If people decided to put their points heavily in areas so they could abuse an OP ability. While ignoring the chance to be adaptable. They don't deserve a free respect.

PVT_Parts

KracsNZ wrote: »

I have sword/shield as one of my Templar specs (main is heals and have DPS off-spec). I agree there should of been a change but am very disappointed in the heavy handed approach with the nerf. The culprit that caused the nerf was obviously the medium armor (crit) + 3 piece bash jewelery (dmg), particularly highlighted with DKs due to their other abilities + root + self heal.

Shield bash wasn't something I spammed, but was part of my rotation and a great finisher, i.e. immovable/shielded assault/puncture/biting jabs/backlash etc...

The nerf has hit tankie builds very hard since sword/shield doesn't have decent stam dump abilities with decent range or AoE, i.e. two hand has cleave, dual wield has whirlwind, bow has multiple abilities. Sword/shield is single target, with limited range, i.e. puncture does decent damage but only 5 meters single target (great for the debuff). Power Bash is decent as a stun (terrible as dmg), but it's ridiculous cost (cost more to stun than to stam break out of it) makes it useless (shielded assault much better for this, even in close quarters). What does that leave, Silver Bolts from fighters guild (low DPS vs. non-vamp/ww)? That left shield bash.

Kind of wished they'd left the dmg as is but removed bash jewelery and shield crit /shrug. Other mechanics like you're not blocking while bashing could of helped to (i.e. 0.5s timer if you bash, so if you shield bash spam at least you've got no mitigation).

Oh well, guess I'll leave my tank build for dungeon bosses and stick to my heals/dps builds for everything else.

It was a simple problem of when the jewelry enchantment was calculated. It seems like the enchantment was calculated before the deadly bash, so the deadly bash 100% increase in damage also doubled the jewelry enchantment, adding 90 damage that shouldn't have been there. My build was using the shielding making it cost less and sustainable, but still only doing around 220 dmg which is not OP by any attack standards. My dual wield blood craze does more,it just isn't as survivable a build.

KracsNZ

PVT_Parts wrote: »

It was a simple problem of when the jewelry enchantment was calculated. It seems like the enchantment was calculated before the deadly bash, so the deadly bash 100% increase in damage also doubled the jewelry enchantment, adding 90 damage that shouldn't have been there. My build was using the shielding making it cost less and sustainable, but still only doing around 220 dmg which is not OP by any attack standards. My dual wield blood craze does more,it just isn't as survivable a build.

They also nerfed the dmg outright. Note, I was never wearing +dmg bash jewellery, yet my dmg dropped from 270 to 110 (my puncture hits for over 300). It has definitely been outright nerfed. Even an interrupt bash is only hitting for 200 now for me.

Think this comes from a two pronged change, one being the reduction in damage for non-interrupt bashes, second a change to Deadly Bash reducing the dmg bonus from 100% to 50%.

Maverick827

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

I have quite a bit of my Class Abilities and weapon abilities Unlocked. Why? So that I can transition to a build better suited to my situation.

If people decided to put their points heavily in areas so they could abuse an OP ability. While ignoring the chance to be adaptable. They don't deserve a free respect.

Your childish, irrational hatred of people who chose to use a certain spec in a video game does not mean that those people don't deserve a free respec.

KracsNZ

KracsNZ wrote: »

PVT_Parts wrote: »

It was a simple problem of when the jewelry enchantment was calculated. It seems like the enchantment was calculated before the deadly bash, so the deadly bash 100% increase in damage also doubled the jewelry enchantment, adding 90 damage that shouldn't have been there. My build was using the shielding making it cost less and sustainable, but still only doing around 220 dmg which is not OP by any attack standards. My dual wield blood craze does more,it just isn't as survivable a build.

They also nerfed the dmg outright. Note, I was never wearing +dmg bash jewellery, yet my dmg dropped from 270 to 110 (my puncture hits for over 300). It has definitely been outright nerfed. Even an interrupt bash is only hitting for 200 now for me.

Think this comes from a two pronged change, one being the reduction in damage for non-interrupt bashes, second a change to Deadly Bash reducing the dmg bonus from 100% to 50%.

Just checked it against non-elite equal level mobs (scorpions) in Craglorn (pre-craglorn vet zones still seem a bit borked). Shield bash is hitting for 112, puncture was hitting for 264. That is one hell of a nerf.

Loco_Mofo

Maverick827 wrote: »

This part is unacceptable. If they're going to make an entire spec unusuable, they should have offered a full, free respec.

I'm sick of people claiming that sword & shield is now unusable now that bash has been fixed.

Tell that to my Nightblade who's leveling sword & shield through VR content.

You got the points back from the Deadly Bash passive, but you want a free respec on top of that? Gimme a break.

FrauPerchta

Bash should not be so am able, this coming from a someone with 1H&Shield DK. It was nerfed in the wrong way. Damage should have stayed the same and Stamina req and cool down raised.

KracsNZ

Loco_Mofo wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

This part is unacceptable. If they're going to make an entire spec unusuable, they should have offered a full, free respec.

I'm sick of people claiming that sword & shield is now unusable now that bash has been fixed.

Tell that to my Nightblade who's leveling sword & shield through VR content.

You got the points back from the Deadly Bash passive, but you want a free respec on top of that? Gimme a break.

Well I actually see their point. Sword/shield prior to the 'nerf' had two viable roles, boss tanking and single target DPS (whether it was supposed to or not). Because it has no other decent damage ability other than puncture (even with 3 piece stam reduction jewellery is pretty inefficient), means they'll have to load up on magicka and go with only class abilities. I think they should of refunded the sword/board tree and let people choose if they wanted to spec back into it.

I'm sticking with my sword/board for tanking reasons (main spec is still healing).

PVT_Parts

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FLXF1RnCho

watch the first 2 minutes. Argument over.

Drazticulous

all I saw was shields pushing against shields.... not continuous bashing til the enemy dies...

Bangstin

Drazticulous wrote: »

all I saw was shields pushing against shields.... not continuous bashing til the enemy dies...

Maybe that's why he said argument over?

UrQuan

Drazticulous wrote: »

all I saw was shields pushing against shields.... not continuous bashing til the enemy dies...

Hoplite-on-hoplite the shields were (in addition to being the primary method of protection) a way to use the weight of one entire phalanx (the guys in the rear ranks would add their weight by pushing their shields into the backs of the guys in the front ranks) to push the opposing phalanx in order to gain a tactical advantage. The edges of the shields would also be used to drop down on any hoplites who stumbled and ended up underfoot - usually killing them outright.

Against less well-armoured and less well-organized opponents (which, in this time period, meant almost any opponents who weren't hoplites) actual shield bashes were an effective offensive tactic, which could break bones, knock people down, etc. The shield bash itself was not usually a way to kill someone directly, but it was often a way to make someone unable to fight, or to open them up to a killing blow.

Some historians have theorized that the majority of Spartan kills came from their shields - even against other hoplites (mostly because the Spartans were better trained and organized, and could maintain their phalanx longer, until the other phalanx broke). Other historians disagree.

ShintaiDK

Since 250dps bash is completely OP. Can we start to nerf those 1000dps destruction staff users?

Sypherioth

Stop the damn noobish bash rage allready. Rly a defensive skill shouldnt be used for dps. the damage is just bonus

KracsNZ

And calling people noobs is an argument? pot/kettle/black... If it really was only a defensive skill, deadly bash would never have existed, bash jewelery would never have existed, they would have actually had a dmg ability in sword/shield (what is there, puncture?), and... after complaints about it being OP (which I actually agree it was), they wouldn't of had to make the 'change' (emphasis) to make bash do less damage when not interrupting.

Korah_Eaglecry

Maverick827 wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

I have quite a bit of my Class Abilities and weapon abilities Unlocked. Why? So that I can transition to a build better suited to my situation.

If people decided to put their points heavily in areas so they could abuse an OP ability. While ignoring the chance to be adaptable. They don't deserve a free respect.

Your childish, irrational hatred of people who chose to use a certain spec in a video game does not mean that those people don't deserve a free respec.

Isnt it childish to infer others are infact childish when they are not?

Theres only two reasons to focus on one ability as the main damage source for a build.

1.) The Game Devs did a horrible job of creating a well thought out and useful class abilities/builds.

OR

2.) People were abusing something that was not intended to be used in the manner it was.

The childish reaction would have been to demand people be banned for such a thing.

Theres nothing childish about having the opinion that those who knowningly engaged in abusing something should not be reimbursed in the form of a respec.

Nor is it childish to think the opposite. But since this is a forum and Im free to express my opinion as long as its within the rules of the forum. I'll continue to do so in-spite of your attempt to flame.

KracsNZ

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

I have quite a bit of my Class Abilities and weapon abilities Unlocked. Why? So that I can transition to a build better suited to my situation.

If people decided to put their points heavily in areas so they could abuse an OP ability. While ignoring the chance to be adaptable. They don't deserve a free respect.

Your childish, irrational hatred of people who chose to use a certain spec in a video game does not mean that those people don't deserve a free respec.

Isnt it childish to infer others are infact childish when they are not?

Theres only two reasons to focus on one ability as the main damage source for a build.

1.) The Game Devs did a horrible job of creating a well thought out and useful class abilities/builds.

OR

2.) People were abusing something that was not intended to be used in the manner it was.

The childish reaction would have been to demand people be banned for such a thing.

Theres nothing childish about having the opinion that those who knowningly engaged in abusing something should not be reimbursed in the form of a respec.

Nor is it childish to think the opposite. But since this is a forum and Im free to express my opinion as long as its within the rules of the forum. I'll continue to do so in-spite of your attempt to flame.

PvP is still like that. Most people using 1 or 2 abilities + ultimate. DK mage burning talons + standard + impulse spam? How about archer spam?

Problem was it was a similar issue with bash. DK medium armor crit build + sword/shield. Burning talons + standard + shield bash, with fiery whip to pull them back into the standard/shield bash range. Or worse yet, pre-nerf vamp + mist form + bat swarm + shield bash in the middle of raids... fun fun.

The problem with the shield bash nerf, is now sword/shield is really only a tank build IMO. It is only single target, so why not let it do decent single target damage? The two decent abilities for PvP left are Puncture (for it's debuff) and Shield Charge. Defensive Posture is very situational, and likely better for tanking bosses than PvP. Power Bash is worse, the terrible stamina cost (similar to stam breaking out of it) and having the debuff (from Reverberating Bash) be single target is pointless in PvP. Easier and more efficient to just Shield Charge again, even in close range.

Shield mitigation in PvP? Maybe if I'm only in mostly light (1 heavy for Immovable) caster mode firing off Dawn's Wraith abilities with Puncture to lower their resists, then switching to destro to lay down some AoEs. Problem I see is for medium/heavy stam builds the shield mitigation is now poor use as you'll be sitting there losing your stamina without a DPS option except for your much smaller magicka pool or switching to a different weapon.

They could of fixed it in so many other ways, the sledgehammer they took to it was confusing. As I said previously, removing the mitigation when you bash (timer), removing +dmg bash jeweler, removing crit etc... could of all been viable options.

Reenlister

Well lads and lassies, all I have to add to this here talk as of now, I as I have said, do think the shield was a wee bit to powerful. The problem still lies in that they have not given the sword swingers anything back. Its really down to the blunt fact that they took the only part of the S/S that caused any damage and did it away, while leaving the sword as nay more than a chopstick in hitting. This is like the introduction of gunpowder, only here if ye don't have that magiky stuff, yer done.
Nay, I didn't build me life around that shield, but with the tiny bit o damage that sword does, it sure did come in helpful as a killing blow.