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For those who think shields are not an offensive weapon and bash was rightfully nerfed
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Drazticulous✭✭Requiemslove wrote: »Drazticulous wrote: »Requiemslove wrote: »Drazticulous wrote: »Yes you can be aggressive but no one in their right mind is ONLY going to hit someone with a shield...
This is not strictly true. A skilled shield user can kill with just a shield. I am sure there is historical evidence of this but I don't have the dedication to dig it up.
lol well I see your point.... let me add a slightly off topic theory..... Since they "fixed" aoe capping, why not cap how many people you can block at once? surely 4 guys surrounding you can't all be blocked at the same time... if that was fixed I wouldn't care the damage of shield bash because he wouldn't be able to block enough people to survive.
Hey, so long as they don't make tanking super easy mode, I aint fussed. In lotro I can take on like 18 enemies AT ONCE [if I can find enough in a small enough area] and be like "meh, what are these flies up to *le-sigh* guess I ought to swat em" But yea, no shield user can block an attack the shield cant cover. It tends to be 180 degrees or something such as that. Have you got all 4 enemies in front, or two behind two in front? Only positioning is vital. If all are in front, a skilled shield user could foreseeably block all four.
I was on my nightblade and I always attack from behind the enemy... they took less damage actually while blocking.0 -
Ser Lobo✭✭✭✭✭
✭Requiemslove wrote: »Drazticulous wrote: »Yes you can be aggressive but no one in their right mind is ONLY going to hit someone with a shield...
This is not strictly true. A skilled shield user can kill with just a shield. I am sure there is historical evidence of this but I don't have the dedication to dig it up.
Romans did it all the time. Drop their shield on a fallen opponents head.
Course, they also stomped on them with their sandals and stabbed them with their short swords, so who knows if anyone actually died from the shield first ....
Ruze Aulus. Mayor of Dhalmora. Archer, hunter, assassin. Nightblade.
Gral. Mountain Terror. Barbarian, marauder, murderer. Nightblade.
Na'Djin. Knight-Blade. Knight, vanguard, defender. Nightblade.
XBOX NARuze is a veteran of the PC Beta, lived through the year one drought, survived the buy-to-play conversion, and has stepped foot in the hells known as Craglorn. He mained a nightlbade when nightblades weren't good, and has never worn a robe. He converted from PC during the console betas, and hasn't regretted it a moment since.
He'd rank ESO:TU (in it's current state) a 4.8 out of 5, loving the game almost entirely.
This is an multiplayer game. I should be able to log in, join a dungeon, join a battleground, queue for a dolmen or world boss or delve, teleport in, play for 20 minutes, and not worry about getting kicked, failing to join, having perfect voice coms, or being unable to complete content because someone's lagging behind. Group Finder and matchmaking is broken. Take a note from Destiny and build a system that allows from drop-in/drop-out functionality and quick play.0 -
Requiemslove✭✭✭Drazticulous wrote: »Requiemslove wrote: »Drazticulous wrote: »Requiemslove wrote: »Drazticulous wrote: »Yes you can be aggressive but no one in their right mind is ONLY going to hit someone with a shield...
This is not strictly true. A skilled shield user can kill with just a shield. I am sure there is historical evidence of this but I don't have the dedication to dig it up.
lol well I see your point.... let me add a slightly off topic theory..... Since they "fixed" aoe capping, why not cap how many people you can block at once? surely 4 guys surrounding you can't all be blocked at the same time... if that was fixed I wouldn't care the damage of shield bash because he wouldn't be able to block enough people to survive.
Hey, so long as they don't make tanking super easy mode, I aint fussed. In lotro I can take on like 18 enemies AT ONCE [if I can find enough in a small enough area] and be like "meh, what are these flies up to *le-sigh* guess I ought to swat em" But yea, no shield user can block an attack the shield cant cover. It tends to be 180 degrees or something such as that. Have you got all 4 enemies in front, or two behind two in front? Only positioning is vital. If all are in front, a skilled shield user could foreseeably block all four.
I was on my nightblade and I always attack from behind the enemy... they took less damage actually while blocking.
From behind? That makes no sense whatsoever, how can you take less damage while blocking while not actually blocking your opponents attacks with the shield...it only blocks frontal, or anywhere the shield user can move his shield arm to in time to block an attack. I take it you did get the jump and they had not turned before you attacked?
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Drazticulous✭✭Requiemslove wrote: »Drazticulous wrote: »Requiemslove wrote: »Drazticulous wrote: »Requiemslove wrote: »Drazticulous wrote: »Yes you can be aggressive but no one in their right mind is ONLY going to hit someone with a shield...
This is not strictly true. A skilled shield user can kill with just a shield. I am sure there is historical evidence of this but I don't have the dedication to dig it up.
lol well I see your point.... let me add a slightly off topic theory..... Since they "fixed" aoe capping, why not cap how many people you can block at once? surely 4 guys surrounding you can't all be blocked at the same time... if that was fixed I wouldn't care the damage of shield bash because he wouldn't be able to block enough people to survive.
Hey, so long as they don't make tanking super easy mode, I aint fussed. In lotro I can take on like 18 enemies AT ONCE [if I can find enough in a small enough area] and be like "meh, what are these flies up to *le-sigh* guess I ought to swat em" But yea, no shield user can block an attack the shield cant cover. It tends to be 180 degrees or something such as that. Have you got all 4 enemies in front, or two behind two in front? Only positioning is vital. If all are in front, a skilled shield user could foreseeably block all four.
I was on my nightblade and I always attack from behind the enemy... they took less damage actually while blocking.
From behind? That makes no sense whatsoever, how can you take less damage while blocking while not actually blocking your opponents attacks with the shield...it only blocks frontal, or anywhere the shield user can move his shield arm to in time to block an attack. I take it you did get the jump and they had not turned before you attacked?
they were blocking 3 guys and I was stealthed.... no way they knew and they didn't turn around til he killed one of the guys first.0 -
Requiemslove✭✭✭Drazticulous wrote: »Requiemslove wrote: »Drazticulous wrote: »Requiemslove wrote: »Drazticulous wrote: »Requiemslove wrote: »Drazticulous wrote: »Yes you can be aggressive but no one in their right mind is ONLY going to hit someone with a shield...
This is not strictly true. A skilled shield user can kill with just a shield. I am sure there is historical evidence of this but I don't have the dedication to dig it up.
lol well I see your point.... let me add a slightly off topic theory..... Since they "fixed" aoe capping, why not cap how many people you can block at once? surely 4 guys surrounding you can't all be blocked at the same time... if that was fixed I wouldn't care the damage of shield bash because he wouldn't be able to block enough people to survive.
Hey, so long as they don't make tanking super easy mode, I aint fussed. In lotro I can take on like 18 enemies AT ONCE [if I can find enough in a small enough area] and be like "meh, what are these flies up to *le-sigh* guess I ought to swat em" But yea, no shield user can block an attack the shield cant cover. It tends to be 180 degrees or something such as that. Have you got all 4 enemies in front, or two behind two in front? Only positioning is vital. If all are in front, a skilled shield user could foreseeably block all four.
I was on my nightblade and I always attack from behind the enemy... they took less damage actually while blocking.
From behind? That makes no sense whatsoever, how can you take less damage while blocking while not actually blocking your opponents attacks with the shield...it only blocks frontal, or anywhere the shield user can move his shield arm to in time to block an attack. I take it you did get the jump and they had not turned before you attacked?
they were blocking 3 guys and I was stealthed.... no way they knew and they didn't turn around til he killed one of the guys first.
A defensive posture is useless when you are defending the wrong way, this is why I don't get how they could take less damage while blocking the wrong way to the attacks.
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Drazticulous✭✭Requiemslove wrote: »Drazticulous wrote: »Requiemslove wrote: »Drazticulous wrote: »Requiemslove wrote: »Drazticulous wrote: »Requiemslove wrote: »Drazticulous wrote: »Yes you can be aggressive but no one in their right mind is ONLY going to hit someone with a shield...
This is not strictly true. A skilled shield user can kill with just a shield. I am sure there is historical evidence of this but I don't have the dedication to dig it up.
lol well I see your point.... let me add a slightly off topic theory..... Since they "fixed" aoe capping, why not cap how many people you can block at once? surely 4 guys surrounding you can't all be blocked at the same time... if that was fixed I wouldn't care the damage of shield bash because he wouldn't be able to block enough people to survive.
Hey, so long as they don't make tanking super easy mode, I aint fussed. In lotro I can take on like 18 enemies AT ONCE [if I can find enough in a small enough area] and be like "meh, what are these flies up to *le-sigh* guess I ought to swat em" But yea, no shield user can block an attack the shield cant cover. It tends to be 180 degrees or something such as that. Have you got all 4 enemies in front, or two behind two in front? Only positioning is vital. If all are in front, a skilled shield user could foreseeably block all four.
I was on my nightblade and I always attack from behind the enemy... they took less damage actually while blocking.
From behind? That makes no sense whatsoever, how can you take less damage while blocking while not actually blocking your opponents attacks with the shield...it only blocks frontal, or anywhere the shield user can move his shield arm to in time to block an attack. I take it you did get the jump and they had not turned before you attacked?
they were blocking 3 guys and I was stealthed.... no way they knew and they didn't turn around til he killed one of the guys first.
A defensive posture is useless when you are defending the wrong way, this is why I don't get how they could take less damage while blocking the wrong way to the attacks.
Even in PVE when a mob jumps over my head and start a big attack I don't even look at them and still block...0 -
Requiemslove✭✭✭Drazticulous wrote: »Requiemslove wrote: »Drazticulous wrote: »Requiemslove wrote: »Drazticulous wrote: »Requiemslove wrote: »Drazticulous wrote: »Requiemslove wrote: »Drazticulous wrote: »Yes you can be aggressive but no one in their right mind is ONLY going to hit someone with a shield...
This is not strictly true. A skilled shield user can kill with just a shield. I am sure there is historical evidence of this but I don't have the dedication to dig it up.
lol well I see your point.... let me add a slightly off topic theory..... Since they "fixed" aoe capping, why not cap how many people you can block at once? surely 4 guys surrounding you can't all be blocked at the same time... if that was fixed I wouldn't care the damage of shield bash because he wouldn't be able to block enough people to survive.
Hey, so long as they don't make tanking super easy mode, I aint fussed. In lotro I can take on like 18 enemies AT ONCE [if I can find enough in a small enough area] and be like "meh, what are these flies up to *le-sigh* guess I ought to swat em" But yea, no shield user can block an attack the shield cant cover. It tends to be 180 degrees or something such as that. Have you got all 4 enemies in front, or two behind two in front? Only positioning is vital. If all are in front, a skilled shield user could foreseeably block all four.
I was on my nightblade and I always attack from behind the enemy... they took less damage actually while blocking.
From behind? That makes no sense whatsoever, how can you take less damage while blocking while not actually blocking your opponents attacks with the shield...it only blocks frontal, or anywhere the shield user can move his shield arm to in time to block an attack. I take it you did get the jump and they had not turned before you attacked?
they were blocking 3 guys and I was stealthed.... no way they knew and they didn't turn around til he killed one of the guys first.
A defensive posture is useless when you are defending the wrong way, this is why I don't get how they could take less damage while blocking the wrong way to the attacks.
Even in PVE when a mob jumps over my head and start a big attack I don't even look at them and still block...
See, I always turn. I didn't know I never had to....[MMO raid instincts be darned]0 -
Glurin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Maverick827 wrote: »Anyone who was for the shield bash nerf is a caster or doesn't mind that their weapon-using character is terrible comparatively.
Or melee that couldn't do any damage because they were getting bashed by someone with a shield.
Here's why shield bash needed a nerf. Go stand in a doorway. Now have someone slam the door in your face. Repeatedly. Again and again as fast as he can hit you with it while you try to punch him in the face. Now put barbed spikes on the door and do the same thing. Are you starting to see the problem yet? If not, try adding fishhooks and razor wire. Maybe even an angry cat or two.Edited by Glurin on 25 May 2014 00:39"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."2 -
rwood0604_ESO✭✭✭For some reason people are justifying this nerf of shield bash with the fact that it interrupts, but I am sorry man there is only a hand full of skills in the game that are not an instant cast, which means it wouldn't be interrupted. So if you suck so bad to the point you are being killed in Pvp from someone shield bashing you to death because you can't CC and escape that a pretty sad considering the fact you have to be with 4meters to hit someone with a shield bash and there are so many CC skills ranged skills in the game that you can use to stay away from them. noobs will be noobs I suppose. As far as the nerfing goes I don't care either way it does cost stamina yes but if anything it should only do as much damage as a normal attack and no more because of the added benefits of still blocking attacks while you are hitting something doing more damage than a normal attack is asking a little too much.0
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skarvika✭✭✭✭
It's called balancing. It's in order to make each playstyle viable compared to the others. Yes, this is something they should have had right at launch, but various tweaks will be needed and this time around it's just bash that is getting altered.First off, bash spamming is cheap and annoying. If you've gone up against someone that does this in pvp, you'd probably understand why so many people called for the nerf.
Wah, it was cheap and annoying. Like sneak attacks. Or bolt escape. Or healing faster than you can do damage. Or being snared in talon or another ability. Or any other ability you cannot immidiately counter. Wah. Cheap. Annoying. It prevents me from winning PvP. Nerf it. Wah.
Man, this kind of thing gets up my nose.
Eventually they'll level the playing field for all skill lines, I'm sure and I know it must be more than frustrating when something like this happens.
Instead of saying "give it back!" just acknowledge that yes, this was a skill which was abused and gave the users an unfair advantage, then offer something you believe would be fair to help you. Like I said, an alternate option would be allowing sword & board users to deal more damage with their various skills so that they don't need to rely on just one. I've tried out most weapon types, so I know first hand that the offensive skills are nowhere near as tough as they should be.QQing is a full time job0 -
Requiemslove✭✭✭
It's called balancing. It's in order to make each playstyle viable compared to the others. Yes, this is something they should have had right at launch, but various tweaks will be needed and this time around it's just bash that is getting altered.First off, bash spamming is cheap and annoying. If you've gone up against someone that does this in pvp, you'd probably understand why so many people called for the nerf.
Wah, it was cheap and annoying. Like sneak attacks. Or bolt escape. Or healing faster than you can do damage. Or being snared in talon or another ability. Or any other ability you cannot immidiately counter. Wah. Cheap. Annoying. It prevents me from winning PvP. Nerf it. Wah.
Man, this kind of thing gets up my nose.
Eventually they'll level the playing field for all skill lines, I'm sure and I know it must be more than frustrating when something like this happens.
Instead of saying "give it back!" just acknowledge that yes, this was a skill which was abused and gave the users an unfair advantage, then offer something you believe would be fair to help you. Like I said, an alternate option would be allowing sword & board users to deal more damage with their various skills so that they don't need to rely on just one. I've tried out most weapon types, so I know first hand that the offensive skills are nowhere near as tough as they should be.
Problem with this is its only [and I say this in the nicest possible way so please don't take offence] lazy players who would use shield bash all the time anyway. [this ones Templar certainly don't] Just like how some players use that blitz javelin spike move all the time [and thank god that's been tweaked] which is monumentally boring to see when you are out questing.
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ferzalrwb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭So many bashspammer threads talking about the "history" of shield use where a one-second-wiki-expert cherrypicks some info about shields they want to apply here.
Should someone tell them, for example, that, historically, it wasn't possible to protect your back by holding out your shield in front of you? Historically, shields did not have a forcefield. I'm pretty certain of that.0 -
Requiemslove✭✭✭ferzalrwb17_ESO wrote: »So many bashspammer threads talking about the "history" of shield use where a one-second-wiki-expert cherrypicks some info about shields they want to apply here.
Should someone tell them, for example, that, historically, it wasn't possible to protect your back by holding out your shield in front of you? Historically, shields did not have a forcefield. I'm pretty certain of that.
Dude, seriously, you needed WIKI to tell you that?
I am aghast at your naivety.
In any case, I already said you cant protect your self with a shield, from back attacks. If you stabbed in the back, you dead. Shields got to be between you, and the blow.
Edited by Requiemslove on 25 May 2014 01:410 -
Korah_Eaglecry✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭First off, bash spamming is cheap and annoying. If you've gone up against someone that does this in pvp, you'd probably understand why so many people called for the nerf.
Second, what I think should happen next is that 1h+shield users should have their offensive skills buffed as they're fairly weak as is so that they can be competitive in combat without having to rely on cheap tactics to have survivability.
I don't PVP, I was trying to PVE, but can't do that now because of PVPers. Couldn't they just nerf it's effect in PVP?
Game Balance is tied to PvP and PvE. Get over it. Your Bash was overpowered and doing far more damage then it should of. If you built your build around that ability alone then I find it hard to believe you didn't know from the start that it was OP and eventually going to get nerfed.
I currently have Bash on my ability bar and continue to use it even after the nerf. Why? Because its an interrupt and stun which is more then useful as a 1h+Shield Tank.
At the end of the day. A Tank build should not be out DPSing a DPS Build.Edited by Korah_Eaglecry on 25 May 2014 02:00Penniless Sellsword CompanyCaptain Paramount - Jorrhaq VhentKorith Eaglecry * Enrerion Aedihle * Laerinel Rhaev * Caius Berilius * Seylina Ithvala * H'Vak the GrimjawlTenarei Rhaev * Dazsh Ro Khar * Yynril Rothvani * Bathes-In-Coin * Anaelle Faerniil * Azjani Ma'LesAban Shahid Bakr * Kheshna gra-Gharbuk * Gallisten Bondurant * Etain Maquier * Atsu Kalame * Faulpia SeverinusWhat is better, to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort? - Paarthurnax0 -
Drazticulous✭✭I tried to point this out... Poster thinks it's all about DPS with a shield though...Edited by Drazticulous on 25 May 2014 02:000
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TheGrimaceOR✭✭I love when people talk about real world balance in a game where you can make a giant cat man shooting lightning from his hand.1 -
beravinprb19_ESO✭✭✭What a silly argument. In real life, getting hit by a two handed sword would be a far bigger deal than getting hit in the face with a shield. If you want to use realism as your argument, then two handed weapons should be dealing far more damage than shields...Edited by beravinprb19_ESO on 25 May 2014 03:000
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Drachenfier✭✭✭✭✭
✭Bottom line is, the fact that it costs a crapton of stamina and does less damage than a stamina free attack is absolutely moronic. I don't care about shield bash, I rarely used it, but I find the devs (over)reaction to the river of pvp tears to be unsettling. If this is the kind of skill balancing we can expect to see in the future from this company, I'll be taking my money elsewhere.0 -
Hornex✭✭To be honest the shield bash Nerf did wonders for me. Its made a me a much better player since I had to totally rethink my class. I now have a tanky DPS DK that can kill players just as fast as I could with shield bash.
However this time there is a sequence to the attack and involves timing of abilities rather than spamming one thing.Edited by Hornex on 25 May 2014 03:210 -
kirbus✭✭are you pretending that people runing around boping around with a shield wasn't incredibly cheesy and silly then you are stupid, frankly.
every time I saw someone run into a dungeon with there shield out just POP POP POPING away I facepalmed and knew as soon as it was nerfed they would have NO idea how to play.
If you want to get stupid I seriously doubt anyone in the days of sword and board went around casting lightening just like I'm sure they didn't run into caves of trolls holding there shield in there hand popping with it over and over. if that was the case why not hold two?!?!?
seriously come on... you guys knew it was pure cheese and needed a nerf.
Dual shields could be fun. and as for not knowing how to play? Of course we don't. We leveled up our play style and it was made useless. So we don't know how to play any other way yet. Clearly I should be like you and know how to play every build and every setup. We don't know how to play because we now have to respec, relevel, reset, and relearn how to play.
respec, relevel, reset, and relearn, in a high level vet zone. and if we get a new build wrong (lets face it we will because we don't know other play-styles) we will have to spend another 20K respecing again. i agree it should have been nerfed, but still decent enough to keep it a viable play style.You can have it. I don't even like sweetrolls. <Crying on Inside>
...Yes, someone did steal my sweetroll.1 -
fiachsidhe✭✭✭Edited by fiachsidhe on 25 May 2014 03:32Don't have an intelligent argument? Just LOL a post!
Dire Crow - Ebonheart Pact - Dunmer Nightblade2 -
Maverick827✭✭✭✭✭
✭
I'm calling your bluff, what's your new build, and how much did it cost for you to switch to it from a shield bash build?To be honest the shield bash Nerf did wonders for me. Its made a me a much better player since I had to totally rethink my class. I now have a tanky DPS DK that can kill players just as fast as I could with shield bash.
However this time there is a sequence to the attack and involves timing of abilities rather than spamming one thing.0 -
kirbus✭✭Listening to the people cry about the nerf is hillarious. It's exactly word for word what people always said on the WOW forums when <insert FOTM build here> was nerfed.
I swear, it's like listening to an army of Daleks. Except instead of saying EX-TER-MIN-ATE they are saying NERF. Now I've got a mental image of 1000 Daleks all saying Nerf, and it's cracking me up.
why would they be saying nerf? they don't want the nerf. the daleks dont say exterminate in protest of extermination. and you would be upset about a nerf if you had to relearn and relevel a play style you used from lvl 1-VR 5. it could have been nerfed but still kept viable and equal to other play styles.You can have it. I don't even like sweetrolls. <Crying on Inside>
...Yes, someone did steal my sweetroll.0 -
kirbus✭✭Maverick827 wrote: »
I'm calling your bluff, what's your new build, and how much did it cost for you to switch to it from a shield bash build?To be honest the shield bash Nerf did wonders for me. Its made a me a much better player since I had to totally rethink my class. I now have a tanky DPS DK that can kill players just as fast as I could with shield bash.
However this time there is a sequence to the attack and involves timing of abilities rather than spamming one thing.
i would also like to know, not that i neccessarily doubt you, just that my DK is usless. what skills and how did you spend M/H/S?You can have it. I don't even like sweetrolls. <Crying on Inside>
...Yes, someone did steal my sweetroll.0 -
Estivara✭While I agree that Bash with shield needed to be nerfed, Bash with my shield now does approximately the same damage as Bash with a bow (62 vs 58), or Bash with a 2H sword (62 vs 59). A shield blocking will block almost as much damage from a heavy attack as throwing up a bow or a 2H sword to block with, I just tried it vs several heavy attacks.
I've never used it as an offensive weapon. The people that would run into dungeons swinging their kite around was always worth a laugh, as I knew it would get reduced eventually. I used it to interrupt, or as a death blow to something that was almost dead and I was out of magicka.
So if it blocks for about the same amount of damage, and bashes for about the same amount of damage, but the sword component of sword/shield does considerably less damage than other weapons, what is the advantage?Edited by Estivara on 25 May 2014 03:511 -
beravinprb19_ESO✭✭✭The advantage is the reduced cost of blocking. Combine that with heavy armour and you can block for significantly longer than someone else. It might not sound like much, but this is very important in a lot of tanking and PvP situations. At least, thats how I see it.Edited by beravinprb19_ESO on 25 May 2014 03:550
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Attorneyatlawl✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Bash is not used to block damage. Block is used to block damage. Bash is used to do damage while blocking, or at least it did until people like you thought that my PVE style was too cheap. It is supposed to interrupt spells, but then suddenly there is a passive that turns it into Deadly bash I guess the word deadly is lost on you.
Bash is used to interrupt spells, and deadly bash enables it to deal reasonable damage if it is interrupting something.-First-Wave Closed Beta Tester of the Psijic Order, aka the 0.016 percent.
Exploits suck. Don't blame just the game, blame the players abusing them!
-Playing since July 2013, back when we had a killspam channel in Cyrodiil and the lands of Tamriel were roamed by dinosaurs.
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-In-game mains abound with "Nerf" in their name. As I am asked occasionally, I do not play on anything but the PC NA Megaserver at this time.0 -
Sypherioth✭✭✭Lol... defensive skill should do more dmg... lol. This nerf is awsome so... get used to time your skills and play smart.0
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SharranAes✭✭✭EDIT: For those saying shield bash shouldn't do as much damage as a regular attack. What are you basing this off of? Shield bash has a stamina cost, normal attack does not, so it SHOULD do more damage.
It also increases your armor, has a trait/enchantment, and various other bonuses (Like interrupting casting and more, assuming you picked shield passives) so no..
No, it should not do more damage than a freakin' great axe's heavy attack1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWZkitw1_Fw