Deadly Bash - Before and After

niocwy

Nehefer wrote: »

As a tank, I now have almost no way to DPS anything now that bashing my way through the game is worthless. Tanks literally have almost no damage output now. Soloing just got much more annoying.

I never used bash as an offensive move and I always managed to get my way through the game no matter the enemies facing me.

So yeah maybe the fights lasts longer but hey, you chose to play a tank with a shield. Let me repeat YOU CHOSE THE TANKING WEAPON.
If you want to do more DPS switch weapon and be done with it. Or use you class skills more.


Damn I'm sick of these people.

daveben007b14a_ESO

angelohupb14_ESO wrote: »

Who used 1h/shield as damage anyhow? Shouldn't that be for DEFENCE and your damage coming from class skills or swapping to a 2 hander or DW ?

^^^

Dahkoht

Gasp, using a shield build is now truly a defensive method , and you then use your second bar to equip an offensive setup when needed using more offensive weapons.

For the whiners and "I cant handle this" types , please exit stage left...........

Maverick827

angelohupb14_ESO wrote: »

Who used 1h/shield as damage anyhow? Shouldn't that be for DEFENCE and your damage coming from class skills or swapping to a 2 hander or DW ?

Samadhi

Maverick827 wrote: »

angelohupb14_ESO wrote: »

Who used 1h/shield as damage anyhow? Shouldn't that be for DEFENCE and your damage coming from class skills or swapping to a 2 hander or DW ?

I'd like to fight with Hand-to-Hand like I did in earlier TES games; however, they didn't even give me a skill line for it.

Alpha_Protocol

angelohupb14_ESO wrote: »

Who used 1h/shield as damage anyhow? Shouldn't that be for DEFENCE and your damage coming from class skills or swapping to a 2 hander or DW ?

I guess who uses any weapon for damage right? Since class skills don't benefit from weapons unless the weapons enchantment is beneficial to magicka based spells.

Edit: ESO didn't invent shield bash btw.

Gornt_Grimreaver

Everyone keeps saying to just use another weapon...because 1h/shield is for tanking. I got a better idea, if you want to nerf the damage of the skill line thats fine. However if ZOS wants it to be a TANK skill line then make them MUCH more defensive and harder to kill while cutting the dps.

symbolism

The biggest issue is that it completely invalidates the play style that many tanks chose to play with on the basis of skill point slotting, attributes and other abilities selected.

Considering how many screams I see for "NEED A TANK FOR THIS DUNGEON" - well, those are going to get worse, because basically now the main weapon I was using for tanking is taken away.

My Bash has gone from delivering about 160 damage at L47 to delivering 74 damage. It also seems a lot slower to me than it was before, i.e delivering three bashes in the time I now deliver two.

So now I have to effectively respec my entire build and weigh up whether or not being a Sword + Board tank is effective anymore.

Meanwhile, Templars didn't get their Aedric Spear nerfed, which is ridiculously overpowered in AoE Damage. I hate when MMO's absolutely change the dynamics of a class like this,

driosketch

Maverick827 wrote: »

angelohupb14_ESO wrote: »

Who used 1h/shield as damage anyhow? Shouldn't that be for DEFENCE and your damage coming from class skills or swapping to a 2 hander or DW ?

Yeah, that means you can put your sorcerer in heavy armor. It doesn't mean you should be able range attack with a 2-hander or heal with your destruction staff. Each weapon line has a role, and any player can use any one of them.

niocwy

driosketch wrote: »

Yeah, that means you can put your sorcerer in heavy armor. It doesn't mean you should be able range attack with a 2-hander or heal with your destruction staff. Each weapon line has a role, and any player can use any one of them.

This.

It's "Play the way you like" not "Play the way you want the game to be".

symbolism wrote: »

So now I have to effectively respec my entire build and weigh up whether or not being a Sword + Board tank is effective anymore.

Of course it is. Damage mitigation on block is amazing, "Pierce armor" is a wonderful debuff, Absorb magic is great, and you can have 3x 3-set bonus with shield and weapon equipped.

Just don't drop the class because a little nerf happened.

Maverick827

driosketch wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

angelohupb14_ESO wrote: »

Who used 1h/shield as damage anyhow? Shouldn't that be for DEFENCE and your damage coming from class skills or swapping to a 2 hander or DW ?

Yeah, that means you can put your sorcerer in heavy armor. It doesn't mean you should be able range attack with a 2-hander or heal with your destruction staff. Each weapon line has a role, and any player can use any one of them.

I'm not disagreeing with the way things are, I'm just trying to provide some insight on why a lot of people feel cheated.

symbolism

niocwy wrote: »

Just don't drop the class because a little nerf happened.

Problem is, it's not a little nerf. I have an ability that previously was doing 160 damage that now does 75 damage - over half reduction. It's also slower, so by my count, I'm doing about 3 bashes in the space I used to do 4, so suddenly I've lost 480 damage in 4 seconds of combat.

That by any stretch of the imagination is not "a little nerf"

The other problem with only refunding points in Bash is that I based my entire class around the dynamic of using bash as one of my main weapons. I slotted skill points, I picked complimentary abilities - for instance, being a vampire, I chose to drain stamina with drain essence rather than ultimate, that's now completely the wrong choice.

Ontop of that, as a tank - I have one, if not two "taunts" - I have no AoE taunt and very limited AoE damage that isn't picked up via a Vampire line.

So suddenly, the one thing I did just as well as most others (Single Target Damage) has been completely taken away, and I go to being an underpowered, in need of an expensive respec character.

Meanwhile, my Templar at L30 hasn't been touched at all and I can kill things faster than you can blink with Aedric Spear - and kill many things at once.

This is a bad nerf, no matter how you slice it, not because "OH BUT TANKS SHOULDN'T EXPECT THEIR SHIELDS TO DO THAT MUCH" - maybe so, but once you've build your entire character around a dynamic that they even suggested you take with skill lines in bash, then you've effectively wasted all those levels.

I'm not even joking when I say I'm considering a complete re-roll now.

Samadhi

symbolism wrote: »

...I based my entire class around the dynamic of using bash as one of my main weapons. ...

To my comprehension, people doing this is entirely the reason this skill got modified to a more reasonable setup.

symbolism

The problem with that theory, Samadhi - is that almost every class has something similar to "Bash" that they setup around and unlike other classes, the reason we were using "Bash" came down to the fact that it was the only ability we had that allowed us to do somewhat decent single target damage and be able to solo quest bosses, etc.

Later in the game with things like Vampire and the Mage/Fighter guild abilities, I have more options - but this would have effectively rendered my character useless from L1 to L30. I expect we'll see a dearth of tanks at end game.

Akhratos

Sadae wrote: »

Nehefer wrote: »

As a tank, I now have almost no way to DPS anything now that bashing my way through the game is worthless. Tanks literally have almost no damage output now. Soloing just got much more annoying.

Do up the 2H skill tree and use a 2H on your other weapon bar. You only need "tank mode" for group play, in which case your job isn't DPS; it's holding agro and staying alive.

Good luck with 2 handed. Most useless tree in the game, and without the need for 10% block reduction from the Heavy skill tree for the bash build, you would barely want to wear heavy.

This game is built around magicka based skills. You can cap almost everystat without even wearing Heavy, while a single skill can give you armor worth half a heavy set, wich you dont even need to wear to use the only useful skill in it (immovable)..

Thats why the only choices for DKs right now are:

Wear Light -> Pyromage.
Wear Light -> Half bash, half spell spam (thanks to the magicka pool/regen from light)
Wear Heavy -> Build all around bash cost reduction and proceed to spam the hell out of it.

Wearing a heavy along a 2handed based build must be worth watching. It may be enough for a few lulz when you get into VR content/PVP.

Light: 1%/p magicka cost reduction, 2%/p magicka regen, 4%/p spell res, 5% spell crit, 3%/p spell pen.
Heavy: 1%/p armor&spell res, 2%/p health regen, 0,5%/p power melee attacks (wow), 10% block cost red for 5+ pieces, 0,5%/p incoming heals.

Is there any single reason you would like to wear heavy besides the block cost reduction in PVP as a DK? I dont see any when 90% usual skills are magicka based.

I would rate the 2handed skills, but it would be really embarrasing.

vyal

kieso wrote: »

whats the dmg when performing a non interrupt bash?

Less than half of what it was, yesterday.
Specifically? 263 yesterday, 105 today. It's less than a light attack from a blue 1 hander of the same level.
Going to be pretty tough to justify using.
And no, I didn't and don't have any bash damage or bash cost related glyphs in use, never have, never will.

Samadhi

symbolism wrote: »

The problem with that theory, Samadhi - is that almost every class has something similar to "Bash" that they setup around and unlike other classes, the reason we were using "Bash" came down to the fact that it was the only ability we had that allowed us to do somewhat decent single target damage and be able to solo quest bosses, etc.
...

I was referring to the propensity for people to build a defensive capability as an offensive maneuver.
The skill has been modified to reflect its purpose.

Srugzal

michaelpatrickjonesnub18_ESO wrote: »

ElliottXO wrote: »

3 seconds cooldown is too long for interrupt bash.

It is when you solo all the time.

Taking on 3 NPC's at once now would be very hard. Quite often you need to zonk 2 enemies almost simultaneously in order to avoid death blows.

Stupid move, three seconds. Another reason to not subscribe.

You can bash all you want; each one has the same stun or interrupt chance as before. It's the extra damage plus its associated stamina cost that has the cooldown--the passive--and not the "bash" itself. I'm still having no problems with 3 or even 4 NPCs at my level. Bash works just fine, and kills plenty good.

The_Drexill

Logged on my VR1 DK tank and honestly it seems fine. I noticed a slight decrease... but it didnt effect my play much. 3 mobs was still 100% fine with Dark Talons/Whip/Breath/Shield Bash/Green blood.

For the people complaining about their damage output... You admit you morphed everything for defense. Did you really think it was ok to build a super-tank, and then out dps the actual dps'ers?

The_Drexill

Maverick827 wrote: »

angelohupb14_ESO wrote: »

Who used 1h/shield as damage anyhow? Shouldn't that be for DEFENCE and your damage coming from class skills or swapping to a 2 hander or DW ?

What in your mind made this invalid?

Brick_XI

I really don't know what to say

I play alone a lot I am 34 and don't have time or friends on enough to have them on call when I want to do a solo dungeon. I am vet5 and am doing vet4 dungeons and there is no way i can take on a group of 3 unless i want that fight to last 30 min. I tried to take on a troll and that fight took over 20 min also. I admit I don't take as much damage as i did before when blocking. but i have no way at all to block and fight a group at the same time anymore. I feel useless. I feel like i wasted so much time the last month its not even funny.

This has to be a joke!

noway will i subscribe agin if something isnt change soon to make my toon feel like he can still fight as he is. If some one did this type of *** on my job heads would roll. what a waste of my personal time!!!!

Dahkoht

brandondickenson_ESO wrote: »

Logged on my VR1 DK tank and honestly it seems fine. I noticed a slight decrease... but it didnt effect my play much. 3 mobs was still 100% fine with Dark Talons/Whip/Breath/Shield Bash/Green blood.

For the people complaining about their damage output... You admit you morphed everything for defense. Did you really think it was ok to build a super-tank, and then out dps the actual dps'ers?

Yes, yes the whining and unskilled players did want to be the super tank and top DPS.

Anyone who didn't see using something meant for an interrupt to out dps DPS'rs as too powerful is just beyond help.

ShintaiDK

I havent tried it myself, since I am waiting for the EU patch.

However it does look extremely grim. And tanks gonna be seriously rare to meet. They are already in short supply. And people will simply bail out when trying to level one.

I do around 280-300 bash dmg at VR10. And due to bash/block stamina reduction glyphs and the 80% stamina recovery boost I can do this enough to kill a mob or 2. My light attacks hits for 110 or so. And heavy maybe 250. All my gear is VR10 epic and I wear heavy armour.

My second best attack is cripling slash. I can do this around 6 times before I am out of stamina. And I will have done less than 1500dmg.

Trials will not be about how fast you complete. But about finding a tank or two before you can even start.

The_Drexill

symbolism wrote: »

The problem with that theory, Samadhi - is that almost every class has something similar to "Bash" that they setup around and unlike other classes, the reason we were using "Bash" came down to the fact that it was the only ability we had that allowed us to do somewhat decent single target damage and be able to solo quest bosses, etc.

Later in the game with things like Vampire and the Mage/Fighter guild abilities, I have more options - but this would have effectively rendered my character useless from L1 to L30. I expect we'll see a dearth of tanks at end game.

It's simply not true. You cant just say things... Must be a Republican.

On your tank, try this: Fiery Breath -> Lava Whip -> Searing Strikes -> Block.

If you cant kill something... I just don't think anyone can help you.

Brick_XI

brandondickenson_ESO wrote: »

Logged on my VR1 DK tank and honestly it seems fine. I noticed a slight decrease... but it didnt effect my play much. 3 mobs was still 100% fine with Dark Talons/Whip/Breath/Shield Bash/Green blood.

For the people complaining about their damage output... You admit you morphed everything for defense. Did you really think it was ok to build a super-tank, and then out dps the actual dps'ers?

lets see a video of that!!!! 3 mobs and just you taking them all on.

ShintaiDK

Samadhi wrote: »

symbolism wrote: »

...I based my entire class around the dynamic of using bash as one of my main weapons. ...

To my comprehension, people doing this is entirely the reason this skill got modified to a more reasonable setup.

The problem is the rest of the skills are so useless. Sword and shield overall needs a 25-50% boost to begin with.

vyal

For me, with the change to straight up bash damage (using your shield to hit your target, consuming stamina), combat takes twice as long as yesterday. This isn't surprising, as DPS is now half of what it was.

The problem is, with most VR content, fighting 3+ at the same time is an exercise in death, futility and frustration unless a) you can AoE DPS them down in under 15 seconds, or b) you can single target DPS one down in under 5 seconds.

Trying to survive in combat for 30+ seconds with two archers, a mage, and a two-hand-wielding NPC all attacking you at the same time, solo? Yeah, that's not challenging, that's silly.

Oh well, it's their game to nerf into the ground, I guess. /shrug

It's not that consuming the content it isn't possible. It's possible, it's just not FUN.

If they want people to use potions every fight, say that.
If they want people to use an ultimate every other fight, we need more ultimate generation.
If they want people to use food, 100% of the time, say that.
If you expect us to be using all of the above, all the time, for all VR content, say that.

Otherwise, you're heading down a very unfortunate road, Zenimax.

Oh, and btw, Pierce armor? That's not ~40%, that's ~4%. So if you were thinking that was gonna be your replacement, think again. It's broken.

Brick_XI

yea I'm just sitting here reading this crap and was thinking about going to play and really don't want to anymore. like he said above its possible to play but not even close to fun anymore. NURFFED TO THE GROUND!!!!

Dahkoht

Duoing with someone is safer and kills packs of mobs faster , soloing groups of 4 can be dangerous and take a while.

Crazy talk isn't it ?

ShintaiDK

Its also insanely drastic if its reduced 50% in dmg. Since they know its our bread and butter to actually do anything solo due to the lack of the other skills.

The +bash jewlery is the whole culpit. Instead of just change that, I assume stacked +bash jewlery is now actually mandatory for any playstyle with this setup.

They end up punishing those that didnt use +bash jewlery the hardest. Thats ironic.