Stamicka wrote: »

Yea ZOS put themselves in a really difficult position. For years and years they've been doing everything they can to get more new players and to keep the solo casuals happy. They keep the majority of the game extremely easy, water down the combat, focus mostly on zone releases, and put a lot of emphasis on events.

This, I think, is a major factor that a lot of people want to ignore.

Sure, we all know about the standard “but but but SteamCharts aren’t everything!” argument regarding the population, but we can definitely see the trend there of a spike after a release and then a slow decline until the next thing releases. ESO very much is seasonal and not constant. Heck, even many of ESO’s StreamTeam is either no longer creating content (at least for ESO - a lot of them are playing GW2 right now) or the content they do create is mostly along the lines of “ESO is cooked!!!1!!11!”

That does mean that if ESO wants to survive, it needs more. More zones. More quests. More events. More things that’ll just end up burning out the population until they get fed up and leave.
And we already see that for all of the forum arguments of “just give us a patch with only bugfixes and quality-of-life stuff instead of new things!” that just doesn’t really work. They’ve done that twice already, and the fact that nobody remembers the Q3 patch for the two previous years was just that shows how important those patches are.

And as you said, the removal of individual achievements and the complete homogenization of character builds due to things like hybridization and Subclassing are making things a lot less interesting for vet players. Like for example, I have finished every 4-man achievement in the game, so what should I do with my dungeon group until we get more? And a lot of vets are saying similar things. So once we get what we need, now what? Are we expected to just leave the game until the next patch? Seriously, even the daily login rewards have been giant nothing burgers the past two months.

ZOS is between a rock and a hard place right now. The balance is a disaster and is actively pushing vets away, and instead of addressing it, the Combat Team is hard-focusing their “PvP for PvErs” mode and the devs are hoping that this FOMO event will get enough casual players to grind dailies and carry the game until New Life.

I really hope ZOS tries to get vets back, but a lot of the comments that many of the devs have made really make it feel like ESO is less of “an MMO that allows you to play solo content” and more of “a solo experience that you can share with friends if you choose, assuming you don’t mind people shining lasers in your face in your medieval-ish fantasy world.”

And the worst part: it’s not like there has to be a conflict. There are things they could add that multiple groups of players could enjoy, like Classes: RPers can make a new character, casuals get to play with mixing and matching new skills, vets get more to theorycraft with, PvPers get new enemy tactics to fight against, and the like.

aetherix8 wrote: »

1. What if PvEers figured they had better things to do than deal with op ballgroups, broken builds, lag, etc?

2. Are PvEers wrong to ask for a PvP mode where they stand a chance and one they enjoy?

3. Since when do PvPers work for ZOS?

4. PvPers have given exactly nothing to PvEers

5. Frankly, I couldn't care less whether PvPers keep the current version or not, as it doesn't exist for me anyways. In general, I suspect that PvEers don't really care either, they have other problems, like hats and economy. PvPers can try and dictate whatever they want to PvEers, it doesn't change that Cyro populations are shrinking.

1. Don't play
2. No. They aren't wrong. But "stand a chance" alludes to the fact that you either have no skill, or you want things handed to you in some easy mode to help you win. Learn to play.
3. Since ZOS said PvPers work for them on this forum. But that isn't what I was referencing and you know it. See the next comment.
4. Yes PvPers have. We've given tons of advice, builds and techniques to PvErs. The easiest to verify are the the tons of posts before every MYM. There's also a ton of requests from PvErs on how to survive in IC, or collect items in IC without PvPing. PvPers help you with this and show a ton of grace when they could say - Learn to Play.
5. This rings untrue; however, here we are answering questions for someone with an agenda. You can't PvP, you want an ez mode to help you, you'd prefer to PvP on some imaginary even playing field rather than develop skill. Every player in the current environment is under the same ruleset as every other player, so what's your problem? How can we help you get better?

PvPers aren't asking ZOS for new abilities or skills. They want a more performant environment and one without heal, buff, and shield stacking. They've asked repeatedly for a removal or detuning of certain skills and armor sets and named them. They've asked ZOS for the results of tests and for follow through on past promises to provide information. Now they've become paid testers for ZOS while the devs fall back to ignoring requests for updated information regarding the direction of the current tests.

I hope the Writhing Wall event changes my life.

IA got boring before they even changed the name and got rid of most of the bugs. Please no more repetitive trash killing arenas with recycled assets.

CoronHR wrote: »

i think the cat's out of the bag and there's no going back.
i just think it's too late

The cat liked it in the bag. It was warm, and it had plenty food.

I liked playing ESO and had lots of toons, who now seem redundant. At the moment I just feed my horses.

I'll have to try subclassing eventually as I realise it won't be reversed.

I had the problem of having to verify my old age - there's a new law in the UK making sure young people don't access stuff they shouldn't, which is a good idea, but I haven't verified yet as I don't trust the technology, so that's stopped me joining groups for dungeons, so I don't need to subclass yet.

While they aren’t going to significantly change it, I think subclassing was the biggest mistake in the game’s history. Just like hybridization, it has reduced build diversity in difficult and competitive content. It’s significantly decreased my enjoyment of the game.

Last'One wrote: »

DarkStrifeYT wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

Should all PvE be eliminated from ESO? Sounds great to me so maybe I should make a poll too.

Tempted to do that, nothing but open world pvp from here on


Its mostly just out of curiosity and a discussion. Especially with how the story is going but who knows could be a new war in the future.

I really don’t know about that, but I truly believe that if ZOS removed PvP from ESO, PvE would be 100% better for sure.

PvE will be removed shortly after PvP is removed is how that will play out.

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Honestly, this was quite predictable. We all knew that subclassing was going to wreck any semblance of balance when they released it because its power creep on steroids. And as fun as it is to play a game that is broken from a balance perspective, it is also not good for the long-term health of the game. This is why I wish they had taken a more thoughtful approach to subclassing or just not done it at all instead of just pushing something out that is half-baked to try to make a quick buck. My hope is that there will be some balancing changes coming, which may or may not help, depending on what they do, but it begs me to question why you would release something knowing it is broken in the first place.

My big fear is just… where do you go from here?

The power creep added from Subclassing was obscene, but it’s here now. If ZOS tries to nerf anything, we’ll have another U35-esque exodus. If they buff PvE enemies, we’ll get people complaining about damage sponges (we already have bosses in the 170m+ range). If they buff pureclasses, then people who use a for-fun Subclassed build will be left behind.

There’s no winning here. Whichever way they choose will lead to more discontent and another exodus.

And more importantly, 2025 added no new content, for Subclassing was just putting everything we already had into a blender. And there are already people leaving because nothing new came in. Do they spend another year of nothing to try to fix what they have, which may get some of the players who left because of balance to return but also drives off people who are already bored, or do they squeeze in something new to try to get those people back, which would essentially be adding gasoline to a wildfire of balance?

I don’t envy the combat team right now. I can see why they’re just going all-in on Vengeance since the rest of the game is a mess. But the longer they ignore the problem, the more people who are going to leave.

Please ZOS: how many players - content creators, PTS testers, real people - warned about this happening and you did it anyway? Maybe try listening to the people who know the game and its community?

Honestly, its a little too late to start listening to people's warnings. They've painted themselves into a corner, and you're right - regardless of what they do now, they're going to upset someone. But they DO need to take measures to reign in the power creep and bring things closer to balance. Yes, there will always be a META, but the META shouldn't be so far above everything else (in both PVE and PVP) that to run anything else is akin to voluntarily playing handicapped. I think they're going to have to go back to the beginning and do a pure class rebalancing patch, with an eye for how those balancing changes will effect subclassing.

Some people will leave. But others will return. The bottom line is that they can't let let the power creep continue to grow exponentially or it is ultimately going to kill their golden goose.

Absolutely.

They’re in a no-win situation right now, and I’m sure every path forward is going to cause people to leave (not to mention being a monumental task). And kicking the can down the road by hard-focusing Vengeance is not a good strategy.

It’s a really tough situation, and they need a really strong Combat team and lead to take them through this (which… yeah…). I feel bad for them… but only a little. These problems could mostly have been avoided had they listened to the players and testers before dropping this, but that’s all water under the bridge now. They can’t go back. It’s the classic “you made your bed, now lie in it” idea, but now someone needs to explain that to Microsoft and the shareholders - who I’m sure are not going to care about “but but but more freedom to play as you want!” if that meant fewer players interacting with the game.

My gut feeling is that the whole team (who we know favor ESO as a solo experience that you can share with friends if you want instead of an MMO that can be played solo at times) expected Subclassing to be this amazing thing - everyone would be so excited to swap on new things and would love it in every way. They absolutely expected that they would drop Subclassing and so many lapsed players would return and would love to play with new combos, and any balance questions would be minor and easily fixed because now anyone could take anything. They totally thought that mid-tier players would love to take Arc beam so they too could clear things they couldn’t before, but the experienced players would stick to their NBs or whatever they used.

The fact we’ve gotten a lot of surveys and “post your thoughts” things since then really tell me that the team was not expecting U46 to go this way. They were not expecting the balance to be that bad. They were not expecting any players to choose not to Subclass and prefer their pureclass builds. They were absolutely not expecting Subclassing to lead to an exodus. And then the first (only?) thing they did to try to balance it was kneecap ultigen passives, which they reverted before it got out of PTS. They’re paralyzed with indecision right now, and they realize that anything they do is going to make things worse before it gets better. And if they don’t also add new things like Grimoires or a new Class (aka 3 new skill lines) next year, people are not going to be happy with another zero-content year they have to pay $50 for. But then they are totally trying to balance and fix while actively adding something to break things and add more imbalance.

Honestly, I don’t even know how I would proceed if I were in that position, and we’re putting the entire future of the game in the hands of a Combat Lead who is… controversial to say the least. I’d probably make a PTS cycle specifically to play with balance (nothing else) as soon as U48’s is done, and I’d have a feedback thread for each Class… and I’d actually read and interact with the testers. That would at least mean most combat stuff could have some semblance of balance before the new stuff they’re throwing in in U49 could pop onto PTS in January, because I expect that the June U50 patch would need some new combat-related thing like a new Class to get people to buy the pass, and that means there has to be some amount of player-approved balance for the rest of the game by then.
Because if U50 doesn’t have something huge, people will leave. And if the ‘big feature’ is nothing but another free update - even if it’s a big thing like Overland difficulty (which needs to be more than just a “self-nerf slider”) or Crossplay (which needs to be implemented in such a way as to not force character name changes) or Permanent Vengeance (which is not a thing for PvPers as much as a thing for PvErs who don’t want to fight PvPers) - that may get some people to come back but won’t get them to spend actual money on the 2026 year Pass after being let down by 2025’s. And even then, those two things are extremely requested from a part of the playerbase, but are irrelevant to or outright undesirable for other parts, so the effect may be just like Subclassing - everyone thought it would be the biggest thing ever, and it ends up getting a lot less use than projected.