Best Of
Re: * Very * alarming interventions over guild names in recent weeks
Greetings,
As the core issue behind the thread has been resolved and to ensure the back and forth does not continue to escalate and cause unnecessary action, we are going to close the thread.
As the core issue behind the thread has been resolved and to ensure the back and forth does not continue to escalate and cause unnecessary action, we are going to close the thread.
Re: * Very * alarming interventions over guild names in recent weeks
At the end of the day, does it matter if it was because of bigotry or because of spamming or because of some bored person or any other reason? Nothing can be done about the broader community, the only thing you can do is continue on and foster the community you desire within the guild. What is important is this stops happening at the customer support level because that’s actually something that (1) shouldn’t be happening to begin with and (2) can be resolved. And Kevin said they’re working on it.
Soarora
6
Re: * Very * alarming interventions over guild names in recent weeks
Gegensmith wrote: »This is the problem with the "just the facts, ma'am" attitude of some posters here (let alone the trope of "I'm gay but...", which is structurally equivalent to the "some of my best friends are [insert whichever identity category you're currently piling onto]").
Can you please elaborate? Since right now this reads like, because I have a different view on this possibly LGBT-related topic, my opinion is not valid, even though I'm also gay? Am I not allowed to contribute my own perspective as a gay man if it seems to oppose some "mainstream opinion"? Who defines this opinion that "the gay person" is allowed to have? Why is my view supposed to be worth less than that of another gay person?
Gegensmith wrote: »As to the stunningly patronising attitude and "advice" of Syldras: I would say, words fail me, but — they don't. This back-of-a-cornflake-box psycho-babble may pass for insight where you are,
What does "where I am" mean? My culture of origin, my nationality, my race? Please elaborate.
In case someone is actually interested in the source I used: The info I cited about negative events leading to negative expectations leading to wrong conclusions and overall more anxiety, unhappiness and less resilience can, for example, be found in "Treatment Plans and Interventions for Depression and Anxiety Disorders" by Robert Leahy, which has been a standard work on the topic for several decades.
Gegensmith wrote: »but from where I'm standing I am most struck by your failure to do what every psychological approach insists upon as a foundation: to consider and integrate into the analysis your own position and motivations -- your apparent desire to "rescue" those poor deluded *** from their self-created phantoms of persecution.
Maybe it would help to read and contemplate what I wrote more calmly, then it's clear I never wrote that LGBT-phobia doesn't exist.
Gegensmith wrote: »When I receive zone-chat messages saying AND I QUOTE "We need an lgbtq+ holocaust" and your response is to tell us to stop imagining things, be more resilient, and think about how it looks to uninvolved others to speak about homophobia and transphobia in public, I can only respond by telling you to take your vacuous positive thinking *** and your boy-who-cried-wolf narrative and shut the *** up. Yes, an emotional response. Deservedly so.
Unless mods remove my writing rights, I have the same right to voice my opinion on this topic like everyone else.
Syldras
9
Re: * Very * alarming interventions over guild names in recent weeks
Why don't you take another look at some of the posts you've made:
In response to:
hiyde wrote: »
it's logical to suspect
"It is one possibility out of several different ones. Just because one person belongs to a group that is affected by cases of bigotry (which is sad enough), that doesn't mean everything bad that happens to that individual is related to that."
You were literally discussing MY conclusions drawn from the evidence I'd offered in my original post.
You then switch your mode of address to the general, true. In that mode you offer these startling titbits:
"Focussing [sic] on being victimized might lead to the exact opposite, by becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy: Because with the expectation to be hated and persecuted, people will interpret everything accordingly, real attacks as well as completely unrelated events."
You then attempt to garner some semblance of authority for such a disgustingly reactionary response to our ability to identify actions motivated by anti-LGBTQ+ sentiment with:
"Psychology calls that cognitive distortion. Cognitive distortion includes things like (not saying that all have to apply, but to give you a short idea of the concept) making negative assumptions about people you don't know at all and their intentions, assuming a majority of people is against you or an aspect of your identity, overgeneralization, labelling, emotional reasoning (making your fears cloud your view of reality), jumping to conclusions, etc, you get the picture."
Sure, you are not explicitly saying that I have made negative assumptions, assumed a majority of people blah blah, overgeneralised, engaged in emotional reasoning, jumped to conclusions — but you've offered these pearls of wisdom in response to a post I made in which, by any reasonable assessment, I most certainly did not overgeneralise, assume a majority were against me, or, indeed, any of the other flaws of reasoning or modes of acting out that you in your patronising benevolence were helping us all to guard against.
I can only assume that you have no actual experience or knowledge of psychotherapy, given the absurd statement "focussing [sic] on suffering only increases suffering". Are you serious? That *** might fly on the back covers of the latest fad MBS publications, but as a proposal for actual psychological health -- let alone a politically engaged existence -- it reads more like a manifesto for self-repression.
You write: "Thinking "out there are people who try to harm me", no matter if it's true or not, [my emphasis] will influence your way of thinking and your feelings negatively. Does this benefit the community as a whole or the individuals being part of it? I don't think so."
If competence with psychological principles is too much to ask of you, how about the most rudimentary historical awareness? Hear-no-evil, see-no-evil, speak-no-evil denial as a proposal for addressing the realities of homophobia, sexism, and transphobia? How has that tended to work out, ya think? Again, are you serious?
"I very much advocate for keeping a clear mind and vision and not jumping to conclusions" and "one should be careful when it comes to assumptions in an unclear situation and rather try to resolve the situation calmly and consideredly before making any accusations" followed, having lectured us all on how we may be falling foul of emotionally distorted perspectives, illogical reasoning, and acting-out our persecution.
That you can offer all this cornflake-packet wisdom in response to the calm, reasoned, logical and detailed analysis that I first posted in this thread is mind-boggling. That you have not taken a moment to consider what you are doing psychologically, interpersonally, and politically when you posture in the manner that you have is striking and speaks to the worthlessness -- not to say, actual harmfulness -- of the "advice". When you apply, as you identified, principles derived from "Treatment Plans and Interventions for Depression and Anxiety Disorders" to perfectly reasonable, logical, rational, evidence-based discussions concerning LGBTQ+ issues, you pathologise us. We are not depressed nor suffering from an anxiety disorder. We are attempting to address a legitimate concern.
In response to:
hiyde wrote: »
it's logical to suspect
"It is one possibility out of several different ones. Just because one person belongs to a group that is affected by cases of bigotry (which is sad enough), that doesn't mean everything bad that happens to that individual is related to that."
You were literally discussing MY conclusions drawn from the evidence I'd offered in my original post.
You then switch your mode of address to the general, true. In that mode you offer these startling titbits:
"Focussing [sic] on being victimized might lead to the exact opposite, by becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy: Because with the expectation to be hated and persecuted, people will interpret everything accordingly, real attacks as well as completely unrelated events."
You then attempt to garner some semblance of authority for such a disgustingly reactionary response to our ability to identify actions motivated by anti-LGBTQ+ sentiment with:
"Psychology calls that cognitive distortion. Cognitive distortion includes things like (not saying that all have to apply, but to give you a short idea of the concept) making negative assumptions about people you don't know at all and their intentions, assuming a majority of people is against you or an aspect of your identity, overgeneralization, labelling, emotional reasoning (making your fears cloud your view of reality), jumping to conclusions, etc, you get the picture."
Sure, you are not explicitly saying that I have made negative assumptions, assumed a majority of people blah blah, overgeneralised, engaged in emotional reasoning, jumped to conclusions — but you've offered these pearls of wisdom in response to a post I made in which, by any reasonable assessment, I most certainly did not overgeneralise, assume a majority were against me, or, indeed, any of the other flaws of reasoning or modes of acting out that you in your patronising benevolence were helping us all to guard against.
I can only assume that you have no actual experience or knowledge of psychotherapy, given the absurd statement "focussing [sic] on suffering only increases suffering". Are you serious? That *** might fly on the back covers of the latest fad MBS publications, but as a proposal for actual psychological health -- let alone a politically engaged existence -- it reads more like a manifesto for self-repression.
You write: "Thinking "out there are people who try to harm me", no matter if it's true or not, [my emphasis] will influence your way of thinking and your feelings negatively. Does this benefit the community as a whole or the individuals being part of it? I don't think so."
If competence with psychological principles is too much to ask of you, how about the most rudimentary historical awareness? Hear-no-evil, see-no-evil, speak-no-evil denial as a proposal for addressing the realities of homophobia, sexism, and transphobia? How has that tended to work out, ya think? Again, are you serious?
"I very much advocate for keeping a clear mind and vision and not jumping to conclusions" and "one should be careful when it comes to assumptions in an unclear situation and rather try to resolve the situation calmly and consideredly before making any accusations" followed, having lectured us all on how we may be falling foul of emotionally distorted perspectives, illogical reasoning, and acting-out our persecution.
That you can offer all this cornflake-packet wisdom in response to the calm, reasoned, logical and detailed analysis that I first posted in this thread is mind-boggling. That you have not taken a moment to consider what you are doing psychologically, interpersonally, and politically when you posture in the manner that you have is striking and speaks to the worthlessness -- not to say, actual harmfulness -- of the "advice". When you apply, as you identified, principles derived from "Treatment Plans and Interventions for Depression and Anxiety Disorders" to perfectly reasonable, logical, rational, evidence-based discussions concerning LGBTQ+ issues, you pathologise us. We are not depressed nor suffering from an anxiety disorder. We are attempting to address a legitimate concern.
Re: PTS Update 47 - Feedback Thread for Classes & Abilities Changes
Why not just keep the 8% max magicka on Bound Aegis?
they are trying to move away from passive buffs from backbar'ing skills.
basically relentless focus needed a nerf and they decided that it should be a philosophy and if nightblades are getting a nerf then sorc also needs a nerf.
Tannus15
7
Re: PTS Update 47 - Feedback Thread for Classes & Abilities Changes
instead of direct nerfs, moving power from one skill line to another is a fantastic idea and is definitely how sub classing should be balanced. in fact i'd go so far as to say putting buffs on "weak" skill lines like dark magic is a great way to bring up the power of "pure" classes to match the power available with subclassing.
I've been pushing for the master assassin crit flanking bonus to be moved to shadow, specifically dark veil.
all the skill "duration" increase passives should just be removed and the skills duration increased OR they should be changed to something more beneficial overall like dot duration increased.
I've been pushing for the master assassin crit flanking bonus to be moved to shadow, specifically dark veil.
all the skill "duration" increase passives should just be removed and the skills duration increased OR they should be changed to something more beneficial overall like dot duration increased.
Tannus15
6
Re: * Very * alarming interventions over guild names in recent weeks
Hi all, just wanted to follow up here. Thank you for escalating this. We’ve had a chat with customer service to revert the change to the guild name. We are also investigating why this change happened to begin with.
Like some others have expressed, it seems like CS and other content moderation teams are operating in silos. And a lot of the standards or beliefs that your team may have about things may not be the same as theirs. Events like this really paint CS in a negative light because it seems like they're not exercising any discretion on reports.
We just wanted to highlight that we believe the change error occurred because of an incorrect change from a customer service agent. We do want to reiterate that AI was not used as a part of this process and was facilitated by customer service staff. We are looking to figure out exactly where the error occurred so that we can refine the process to avoid the issue in the future.
More detail is warranted when it comes to the role of AI in these situations. You've said a few times that AI itself doesn't perform disciplinary actions, but there's no clarity on what its role actually is. In the recent past, it sounds like some new tech was rolled out and there were training issues on using it.
Whether it's AI or not, there's still some technology giving CS things to action, right? I would think some technology is flagging messages, names, and other transactional data. If you don't want to explain this every time it comes up, which is way too often, then go into detail on how they review this stuff. Just using an example:
"CS using XYZ monitoring platform that flags messages using a predefined but configurable dictionary of words and phrases deemed offensive or unacceptable. They also review reports and then review chat logs/names and compare against internal dictionaries that are informed by the ToS."
That's the level of detail you need to go into. I get it's frustrating to keep repeating yourself, but clearly the explanations thus far haven't calmed the concerns. Try something different.
It'd be nice to get that detail, or even just start answering basic questions like this.
Destai
4
Re: Wall event - missable one-time story?
I might find this event interesting if I wasn't already completely sick of ZOS constantly trying to engineer how people play via promotions.
I don't care about a single reward I've received from golden pursuits. I only resent that it is an annoyance I can't turn off. Yet I hate the constant reminder that TIME IS RUNNING OUT!!!!! Even though I don't care, it's still stressful. Why can't I opt out?
I miss how I played ESO in 2015. I would log in and ask myself "what do I feel like doing today?" Or maybe I didn't log in at all because I didn't feel like it and there was absolutely nothing to lose by doing so.
I completely agree. And this isn't unique to ESO. I've noticed more and more and more games are adding tasks and limited events and passes and 500 other things that try to lock you into that game being your primary game. Hell, even Sims has added stuff like this to the current title and it's 100% a single player game. But the companies can't sell things if you're not playing so better lock the playerbase in and keep them there are long as possible.
I, too, miss gaming from a decade ago where fun was allowed and my presence as a metric was a little more subtle.
heaven13
5
Re: Why are the so few companions?
You mean so many? Not everybody is interested.. I'm glad they're giving it a break and hope it will last for another while.
Too few? There are already 8 too many.
Ishtarknows wrote: »I'd say why do we need so many?
Same reason why we have so many group dungeons?
Some people like 'em.
Re: * Very * alarming interventions over guild names in recent weeks
ImmortalCX, I hold a PhD from Stanford in drama and teach dramatic theory to actors in training at a London drama school. So, thanks, but your assumptions quite literally couldn't be more wrong.
I can only assume that you didn't read the original post.
For those of you complaining about having even mentioned LGBTQ+-friendly, I ask you this (not for the first time):
Are you in all seriousness suggesting that a player saw our guild's name and concluded that, since it uses "Pacrooti", it ought to be reported?
Twice?
In the space of one week, having existed on both PC servers for a DECADE without any problems?
This is the problem with the "just the facts, ma'am" attitude of some posters here (let alone the trope of "I'm gay but...", which is structurally equivalent to the "some of my best friends are [insert whichever identity category you're currently piling onto]"). I laid out in some detail (and yes, sometimes it requires detail -- not all problems are simple or offer simplistic solutions) what the facts were and my logical reasoning process based on those facts.
Another feature of dramatic analysis, ImmortalCX, is the ability to follow a narrative. ZoS have not said that the response to the first report (if indeed there was actually a report) was a hack nor have they said that it was an error. They said that the support ticket's mentioning of "Catzputin" was the error.
I've also argued that the misuse of the reporting procedures are part of a broader problem. That in no way means that we should dismiss the possibility that in this case (as in the case of the other LGBTQ+-friendly guild that was subjected to a forced name-change), it is the result of bad actors in the game motivated by anti-LGBTQ+ sentiments.
As to the stunningly patronising attitude and "advice" of Syldras: I would say, words fail me, but — they don't. This back-of-a-cornflake-box psycho-babble may pass for insight where you are, but from where I'm standing I am most struck by your failure to do what every psychological approach insists upon as a foundation: to consider and integrate into the analysis your own position and motivations -- your apparent desire to "rescue" those poor deluded *** from their self-created phantoms of persecution. When I receive zone-chat messages saying AND I QUOTE "We need an lgbtq+ holocaust" and your response is to tell us to stop imagining things, be more resilient, and think about how it looks to uninvolved others to speak about homophobia and transphobia in public, I can only respond by telling you to take your vacuous positive thinking *** and your boy-who-cried-wolf narrative and shut the *** up. Yes, an emotional response. Deservedly so.
Since my original posting has prompted discussion on related topics, I would also like to share an observation. I've sent time
this year rebuilding the guild(s) on both the EU and NA PC servers. When I've spoken of "cooldowns", I'm talking about a setting within the recruitment add-on that limits how frequently in the same zone an ad can be placed. This is far, far higher than the ingame cooldowns limiting chat spamming. You can post the same message in the same zone fairly frequently and not hit the ingame cooldown. Our recruitment and my observations about how I've gone about it come NOWHERE near that limit. The add on limits one message per zone every TEN MINUTES.
Why is this relevant? Because the attitude of some posters appears to be a form of "you brought this on yourself". We didn't. The guild has recruited in just the same way most other guilds recruit. We haven't been notified by ZoS ONCE -- NOT ONCE -- warning us about spamming. It just hasn't happened. So this idea that we've incurred "mass reportings" is a fantasy. On NA, prior to the launch of Solstice, the guild hadn't advertised quite literally in years.
What I want to share is something that I discovered from rebuilding the guild first on EU (which has experienced no forced name change, suggesting it isn't an AI reporting thing) then on NA.
Advertising garnered phobic zone-chat messages, whispers, and applications to join the guild on both servers. I've shared one such response, but there were many, many more.
One thing that was unique to NA, however, and that I found personally really shocking. I was whispered by gay men who wanted to attack me for advertising a guild as "LGBTQ+-friendly" at all. 'I ought to be ashamed', because such things 'have no place in gaming'. They were keen to tell me how very "proud" they were and that they were married. They seemed to assume that I was young and that they were speaking from a position of greater age and experience. Now, I am a veteran of the LGBTQ+-rights movement in the UK and engaged in direct political action that, in my country at least, helped to win those rights to marry. Sure, I understand that the UK, and Europe more broadly, is a far less phobic cultural environment than the USA is right now. Nevertheless, if you think that LGBTQ+ visibility in this game is harmful to the community, or that we ought to avoid raising concerns when we encounter phobic behaviour in-game, then I can tell you, from my knowledge and experience -- not least reading literally hundreds of applications from players who express their joy and relief at having a guild like ours to play within and countless messages and discussions between guild-members -- you are completely wrong, regardless of your own particular identity. If you disagree, I trust that you will, at your earliest convenience, take yourself along to your local gay soccer club and tell them to disband immediately because sexuality has no place in sport; then, off to your local lesbian reading group to inform them that it has no place in literature; be sure to contact film directors and production companies and tell them to quit what they're doing because it has no place in cinema. Finally, pop into your local LGBTQ+ youth group, escort them out of the building and down to the local branch of whichever far-right extremist organisation is closest, so they can stop being such cry-babies, grow up, face the harsh realities of life and become appropriately resilient.
Fortunately, I have never seen ZoS display such infantile attitudes. On the contrary, ZoS deserves high praise for its commitment to diversity within the game world, its characters and storylines, and its support of LGBTQ+-friendly guilds. Long may it continue.
I can only assume that you didn't read the original post.
For those of you complaining about having even mentioned LGBTQ+-friendly, I ask you this (not for the first time):
Are you in all seriousness suggesting that a player saw our guild's name and concluded that, since it uses "Pacrooti", it ought to be reported?
Twice?
In the space of one week, having existed on both PC servers for a DECADE without any problems?
This is the problem with the "just the facts, ma'am" attitude of some posters here (let alone the trope of "I'm gay but...", which is structurally equivalent to the "some of my best friends are [insert whichever identity category you're currently piling onto]"). I laid out in some detail (and yes, sometimes it requires detail -- not all problems are simple or offer simplistic solutions) what the facts were and my logical reasoning process based on those facts.
Another feature of dramatic analysis, ImmortalCX, is the ability to follow a narrative. ZoS have not said that the response to the first report (if indeed there was actually a report) was a hack nor have they said that it was an error. They said that the support ticket's mentioning of "Catzputin" was the error.
I've also argued that the misuse of the reporting procedures are part of a broader problem. That in no way means that we should dismiss the possibility that in this case (as in the case of the other LGBTQ+-friendly guild that was subjected to a forced name-change), it is the result of bad actors in the game motivated by anti-LGBTQ+ sentiments.
As to the stunningly patronising attitude and "advice" of Syldras: I would say, words fail me, but — they don't. This back-of-a-cornflake-box psycho-babble may pass for insight where you are, but from where I'm standing I am most struck by your failure to do what every psychological approach insists upon as a foundation: to consider and integrate into the analysis your own position and motivations -- your apparent desire to "rescue" those poor deluded *** from their self-created phantoms of persecution. When I receive zone-chat messages saying AND I QUOTE "We need an lgbtq+ holocaust" and your response is to tell us to stop imagining things, be more resilient, and think about how it looks to uninvolved others to speak about homophobia and transphobia in public, I can only respond by telling you to take your vacuous positive thinking *** and your boy-who-cried-wolf narrative and shut the *** up. Yes, an emotional response. Deservedly so.
Since my original posting has prompted discussion on related topics, I would also like to share an observation. I've sent time
this year rebuilding the guild(s) on both the EU and NA PC servers. When I've spoken of "cooldowns", I'm talking about a setting within the recruitment add-on that limits how frequently in the same zone an ad can be placed. This is far, far higher than the ingame cooldowns limiting chat spamming. You can post the same message in the same zone fairly frequently and not hit the ingame cooldown. Our recruitment and my observations about how I've gone about it come NOWHERE near that limit. The add on limits one message per zone every TEN MINUTES.
Why is this relevant? Because the attitude of some posters appears to be a form of "you brought this on yourself". We didn't. The guild has recruited in just the same way most other guilds recruit. We haven't been notified by ZoS ONCE -- NOT ONCE -- warning us about spamming. It just hasn't happened. So this idea that we've incurred "mass reportings" is a fantasy. On NA, prior to the launch of Solstice, the guild hadn't advertised quite literally in years.
What I want to share is something that I discovered from rebuilding the guild first on EU (which has experienced no forced name change, suggesting it isn't an AI reporting thing) then on NA.
Advertising garnered phobic zone-chat messages, whispers, and applications to join the guild on both servers. I've shared one such response, but there were many, many more.
One thing that was unique to NA, however, and that I found personally really shocking. I was whispered by gay men who wanted to attack me for advertising a guild as "LGBTQ+-friendly" at all. 'I ought to be ashamed', because such things 'have no place in gaming'. They were keen to tell me how very "proud" they were and that they were married. They seemed to assume that I was young and that they were speaking from a position of greater age and experience. Now, I am a veteran of the LGBTQ+-rights movement in the UK and engaged in direct political action that, in my country at least, helped to win those rights to marry. Sure, I understand that the UK, and Europe more broadly, is a far less phobic cultural environment than the USA is right now. Nevertheless, if you think that LGBTQ+ visibility in this game is harmful to the community, or that we ought to avoid raising concerns when we encounter phobic behaviour in-game, then I can tell you, from my knowledge and experience -- not least reading literally hundreds of applications from players who express their joy and relief at having a guild like ours to play within and countless messages and discussions between guild-members -- you are completely wrong, regardless of your own particular identity. If you disagree, I trust that you will, at your earliest convenience, take yourself along to your local gay soccer club and tell them to disband immediately because sexuality has no place in sport; then, off to your local lesbian reading group to inform them that it has no place in literature; be sure to contact film directors and production companies and tell them to quit what they're doing because it has no place in cinema. Finally, pop into your local LGBTQ+ youth group, escort them out of the building and down to the local branch of whichever far-right extremist organisation is closest, so they can stop being such cry-babies, grow up, face the harsh realities of life and become appropriately resilient.
Fortunately, I have never seen ZoS display such infantile attitudes. On the contrary, ZoS deserves high praise for its commitment to diversity within the game world, its characters and storylines, and its support of LGBTQ+-friendly guilds. Long may it continue.
Gegensmith
15