We did what WW players asked and removed the class mastery passives, and still achieved 6k-7k DPS on the new WW, while having 6k+ HPS and 40k+ HP. We compared those values to the current best class on the live server (DK), and determined that PTS WW is indeed overperforming (live server DK does not have all 3. They can have 7k DPS with 6k HPS, but not 40k HP, or 6k HPS and 40k HP, but not 7k DPS.).

This is as much objective evidence as it can get. It is now YOUR responsibility to refute our claim with YOUR evidence. Replicate the same data we had, first by fighting the same players, then by fighting us. Then we can come to the actual conclusion whether it's a WW issue or a skill issue.

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I will not continue this further here but advise that you’ll need to understand what the terms ‘burden of proof’ and ‘controlled test’ (can use Gemini if you need a quick breakdown) mean to grasp what is being discussed before you visit.

Funny how Gemini is now disagreeing with you HUH

Worked fine for me but you’re clearly not willing to engage in meaningful discussion despite all evidence provided to you. You’re simply ‘strawman-ing’ the convo my friend. You can see the time on my screenshot so have an amazing and wonderful rest of your night (say whatever you need to while I sleppp).

Anyways since it also seems merited,



‘Controlled test’ depends on application and I’m neither typing out ‘for ESO’ info, info, info so you can completely and disingenuously disregard it so take the good ol’ ‘in gaming’ and go crazy with the ‘straw man’ here too.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I will not continue this further here but advise that you’ll need to understand what the terms ‘burden of proof’ and ‘controlled test’ (can use Gemini if you need a quick breakdown) mean to grasp what is being discussed before you visit.

Funny how Gemini is now disagreeing with you HUH

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I will not discuss this further here but you’ll need to understand what the terms ‘burden of proof’ and ‘controlled test’ (can use Gemini if you need a quick breakdown) mean to truly understand what is being discussed before you visit.

1) The burden of proof requires a competent 3rd party acting as judge. In the context of ESO, ZOS is the 3rd party. I have provided my own evidence, as did others with close to 50+ hours of PTS 1v1 tests simulating real fights. It is now upto ZOS to examine this data and make the necessary adjustments.

2) This isn't a courtroom. ZOS released a series of combat balance changes and welcomed everyone to test and provide feedback. I and others tested these changes and voiced our opinion on them, backed with proof. You must also do the same thing in return. You simply cannot assume that these WW buffs are inherently balanced and leave the burden of proof on us while doing nothing in return. That's very disingenuous.

~thread~ my wonderful friend. I and many others provided parses (controlled tests) that demonstrate that it isn’t egregiously overhead from other damage specs on the top end (remember, the argument is that it does ‘this much sustained damage in a duel’ and it doesn’t have an actual burst move so we aren’t debating that 0.o).

If ZOS decides to balance off your 1 v 1 duels then they are welcome to do that as it is their game after all. You don’t appear to be comprehending what is being relayed or at least do not consider other insight on the matter beyond yours/those who ‘agree’ roughly with your viewpoint>

Hence why I keep saying ~the thread~ (~please~ migrate there to continue and I will happily meet you over there tomorrow). I want to keep this thread as constructive as I feel it can be and I, personally, don’t believe you/‘your party’ are willing the have a constructive conversation on the matter regarding what is logically-deemed, proper demonstration.



Extraordinary statement being ‘I did -x- amount in a duel’ (against who/why/how/what/etc.???; please don’t have me do this for ‘controlled test’ as well and why that is important for providing metric-based feedback).

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

Faltasë wrote: »

Have you even touched the Sorc with anecdotal gameplay in actual content or are you still disillusioned based ONLY on PTS parse numbers/ number statistics? Sorc is still way underbaked, Idk what kind of stuff you're seeing but Sorc passives still need alot of work.

I've touched Sorc lots. It has been underbaked as a class for 12 years now, but the Mastery is undeniably strong. If you guys are referring to relatively underpowered MagSorc builds, there have been 0 metas where "stack max mag to do everything (from range)" has been balanced, either busted op or useless garbage, here's hoping the upcoming rework resolves this.

This is the crux of the issue and a lot of it stems from the fact there seems to be no real "Sorc Dev" on the team and hasn't been since probably Vvardenfell (or maybe even earlier) given how the Sorcerer changes have been handled over the years.

Overload 3rd bar removal (completely killed the pets as a synergistic and integrated part of the class kit), that resulted in splitting the class into 2 separate distinct and conflicting playstyles that resulted in both of them needing to outsource many key aspects of their builds to non-class skills (or other class lines post sub-classing).

The refusal to expand Sorcerers abilities to have secondary effects/buff/debuff access, etc. Stems from some outdated (launch era) notion that classes need to rely on other classes to gain access the buffs that all of the other classes have not had to live be for years now, but sorcerer still suffers under (see some of the dev notes during U38-45 patch notes for proof of this).

U41 ward changes that were insane numbers buffs, but with zero added functionality beyond flat numbers increases, the numbers had to be that big or the buff would completely flop (see the ward nerf in U46 where the line just fell off a cliff in PvP, especially with sub-classing pushing damage infinitely high on top of that nerf and the line is only used for atro in PvE).

Design of crit surge needing to deal critical strikes to "heal over time" but no sticky DoTs in the kit for consistent damage ticks or access to major Prophecy/Savagery for years (and only really stamsorc eventually got that buff on armaments), oh and pets cannot proc this ability either.

The changes to max stats, their removal from the switch of Champion Point 1 system to Champion Point 2 system, the changes to the damage formula years ago to make max stats significantly lower than stacking weapon/spell damage, the shift of scaling healing off weapon/spell damage instead of max stats, and the constant changes to Sorcerers max stats passives/effects so that they are now a janky unreliable mess spread across multiple passives and skill lines (both of which are borderline useless in a sub-classing world).

Cast times on Sorcerer abilities to balance out access to streak (Sorc needing to keep away to ensure reliable use of defensive capabilities), but then giving every class infinite baseline speed at no cost and now sub-classing for streak on top of that speed as well without any cost to their other defensive capabilities such as removal of mitigation, cast times on their healing abilities, etc.

Everything being so generic it works better for non-sorc abilities than it does for sorc abilities

Keeping these flaws in the Sorcerers class kit has meant that the only way to make Sorcerer competitive (in any setting) is to bump the numbers up so stupidly high (see U41 ward changes, class sets and class masteries as proof) that there's no way to truly balance them.

These design fallacies ZOS has with Sorc really need to be addressed or the Sorc refresh will flop just as bad as everything else ZOS has tried with Sorc.

When doing Sorcs refresh, ZOS needs to:

- delete the extremely outdated notion from their minds that Sorc needs other classes for basic buffs (resolve, brut/sorc, proph/sav) or debuffs (breach).
- delete cast times (especially hidden ones such as on fury/flood) as the "balancing" mechanics for streak now that every class sits at speed cap and has access to streak anyway (with sub-classing).
- delete the many internal conflicts inherent within sorcs design (the crit surge case and the pet v no pet resulting from overload 3rd bar removal as examples).
- stop trying to simply force big numbers through as the way to fix the classes inherent design flaws when a complete redesign from the ground up is required.
- start tying some of sorcs strengths to actual sorc abilities rather than being completely generic that better suits everything else than it does sorc abilities.
- remove the extreme redundancy from sorcs abilities (the class doesn't need like 6 sustain passives on top of 4-5 sustain based secondary effects and a sustain based class mastery, it's complete overkill).
- revert the shift of all of sorcs abilities into delayed burst for this "one big 5 stacked ability combo" that still deals less damage than just casting a single molten whip or timing MR + shulks does for DK or sub-classed builds respectively, allow the class some actual pressure abilities in its kit outside of overload to facilitate other playstyles.

Also, now that DK is giving the entire group major berserk when casting an ultimate (any ultimate) from the DK mastery as well as major heroism to the group (that also allows the caster to cast that ultimate much more frequently), on top of being a superior parse DD thanks to the abundance of cleave access DK has that Sorcerer does not have, Sorcerer needs it's own unique reason to bring it to groups since DK is taking the existing only reason to bring Sorcerers into end-game PvE group content at all (that being atro on a support for group major berserk).

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Exactly.

DK has the (awesome) "problem" where they have SO many great skills that you just want to slot them all and get severe FOMO when you are constrained by your scarce bar space.

Meanwhile, over in Sorc-Land, you could delete 75% of total Sorc skills and nobody would care - or even notice - because they are such collective dogwater that they haven't been slotted by serious players since the age of Elsweyr.

I will say, though, that when every class has as stacked skills as DK... the game will be absolutely cooking again. And it will be glorious.

Also, probably closer to 85% of sorcs abilities could be removed and nobody would notice. The only ones people would notice enough to complain about would be the pets (and only pet mains would complain), hurricane (this specific morph only) and Streak (PvP) (wow a whopping 6 out of 36 morphs of the entire kit would have people notice/complain if they got removed). Everything else is just too niche, completely redundant or just simply outclassed by better alternatives.

p.s. not counting atro anymore since it's redundant with DK mastery passive, also not counting ward anymore because U46 nerf completely killed it to the point that shield soul is a better shield than ward due to secondary effects + utility beyond just being a shield.

Spot on .. To be honest the only reason I think we see Streak to the level that we do in PvP is because someone picked up SC for the Hurricane / Lightning skill (for the Resolve) and figured there's a CC skill too so might as well. Streak has awful follow up potential for a CC ability and given it's 15m range it now falls short since everyone can slot either mobility skills that also provide CC immunities or can slot Toppling or Spear, both of which have a farther range than Streak.

I also agree that it's never just about changing numbers. One of the biggest pain points with Sorc skills is the underlying mechanics .. whether we're talking about ridiculously long and clumsy animations, to procs that don't synergize well, long cast times, or even ground based AoEs that are easily avoided and/or would confine the caster in combat.

Here's a great example: Haunting Curse vs Deep Fissure. On paper these two skills are similar, high scaling damage output that have two delayed bursts to their method of application. .. But those skills couldn't be farther apart. Deep Fissure not only scales to similar values as Curse but Curse has a clear telegraph which allows anyone who can count to 3 & 8 to heal through it. Fissure, on the other hand doesn't have a telegraph, it has an animation; that's a big difference. This helps to enable Fissure to apply at least one instance of damage as targets don't see it coming. Fissure can also apply to multiple targets whereas Curse can only be active on one target at a time. Curse does have an AoE potential but only for it's second instance. Fissure also has the benefit of following the caster and not being locked to an individual target, enabling the caster more flexibility in it's applications.

Not even looking at the major & minor debuffs Fissure brings, I'm just looking at the fundamental mechanical differences between how these two skills operate and it's easy to see why, even debuffs aside, Fissure is a much better choice than Curse. IMO for Haunting Curse to ever be viable it's not just about adjusting the numbers it about changing how the skill works to make it more competitive. And it's not just Curse, like you said, easily 85% of Sorc skills need attention.

Missing 1 key point as to why Curse sucks in comparison to Fissure. It can be purged.

My god, it is so frustrating to constantly waste a GCD or your entire burst window just because a player is using one or both of the most popular skill lines in the game via Restoring Light and Animal Companions. Betty passively does it, so sometimes they didn't even intentionally mean to counter your burst. Ritual is OP af by purging 5 effects and allows allies to do the same thing the moment they see the purple glow on themselves. It's terrible.

Subclassing only highlighted this further since purges became more popular, but also because the traditional delayed burst skills you can pick up, all have debuffs attached to them, even the super crappy Power of the Light (which shares a similar issue).

Curse has a 3k tooltip, so it hits the middle of the road between Fissures 2 ticks, but can be purged, lacks major/minor Breach, and deals way less cleave as a result of the application type.

Blighted Blastbones has a 3.6k tooltip, but because it always applies a unique source of Diseased, it deals an additional roughly 400 damage for a combined 4k tooltip. 33% more than Haunting Curse... and it reduces healing via major/minor defile.

I don't even really consider the 2nd burst as a part of the skill budget anymore due to purges and the odds of me being able to line up another perfect combo in the subsequent 8.5s is highly unlikely unless it was a duel. Frankly, I'd rather cast the ability every 4s when I'm actually ready to use it so it doesn't really add anything I need outside of a DPS parse on a dummy.

Before subclassing, all I heard about BB was complaints related to the AI pathing and how it got CC'ed so much, but honestly.. since their most recent change where it jumps at the target, it's leagues better than Curse. It eats ultimates and burst abilities all the time, and even if it gets CC'ed, it rarely outright dies, it just delays my burst window for a more convenient and surprising time.

Personally, they really don't need to do much to make Curse competitive again.

• Daedric Curse
  • Moved from Daedric Summoning to Dark Magic.
  • Radius increased from 5m to 7m.
    • Haunting Curse
      • Can still be blocked, still targetted to 1 enemy at a time, but can no longer be purged.
      • Applies Major Breach and +x% Damage Taken for Monsters while active.
      • When target dies, explodes up to once instantly to nearby enemies.
    • Daedric Prey (Complete rework).
      • Curse is applied to yourself instead of your target, can still be blocked, but not dodged.
      • Applies Major Protection to yourself while active.
      • Explodes twice over 12s, but deals 30% less damage than Haunting Curse, increasing in damage done by +15% per enemy hit including the 1st up to 6 targets.
      • Just for fun, also explodes instantly when you die to nearby enemies.

Overall, I think Sorc can make a clear playstyle choice for their morphs that isn't based on Blue vs Green, but based on Ranged vs Melee for today's ESO context. To me, that was what the best part about original Mag vs Stam Sorc that got lost with hybridization, now would be a good opportunity to bring it back and make morphs more interesting.

For example; Hurricane can stay as is, but Boundless Storm also gets Minor Expedition. Major Expedition could be moved to an ability that makes more sense like a reworked Ball of Lightning (which doesn't absorb projectiles), and the aoe dot could be removed in favour of a buff to status effect chance or direct damage that works from any range. Since ESO released, Boundless Storm has been in this very weird state. Mag Sorc didn't need the aoe dot and spamming your armor buff feels super awkward, give something that really helps that playstyle we remember.

With that explanation out of the way, that's where the 2 above Curse ideas come from. Haunting Curse for ranged, Daedric Prey for melee. HC is more powerful for single target, especially in PvE where Sorc is treated as a high priority nuker, but DP is great for aoe and melee with some defense thrown in to warrant getting in close. Since DP is self cast, it solves the Fissure vs Curse problem you raised by giving you more control of where it lands. DP would behave like a more consistent, less extreme, Proxy Det, similar to DK's Incinerate, but more power with less ticks and less radius.

I think of all the abilities, most Sorc mains would agree Curse is probably the most likely to move, so having a pet themed morph no one liked to begin with wouldn't really make sense anymore. The only good part about Prey is how it focusses your pets, but that can be added to a passive or new ability like Rune Prison. The debuff of +50% damage can be moved to the core pets power with Tormentor getting a real activation worth casting.

This is all super off topic, but interesting to me nontheless. For all pets including Warden and Necro, I'd also like to see a permanent vs non permanent option built in. A simple addition like:

"If this ability is slotted on 2 bars, the activation will permanently summon the pet in addition to its on cast effects. While summoned, the pet now passively attacks."

This would basically mean you can use Bear, Tormentor, and Familiar on 1 bar, but they no longer passively attack. Necro could double bar Skele Mage for passive attacks with a rework to the activation. Matriarch and Clanfear could actually be used for support roles like Spirit Guardian without the problem of taking up 2 slots for nothing. Bear could use a rework to make the cast better, but same princible. Options.

Also, just make all pets untargettable. It's way too problematic and gives extremes of complete uselessness to overwhelmingly OP. Skele Archer does this perfectly fine, no one has ever complained about not being able to kill it, and if passive attacks were really a problem, ZOS could implement a damage buff/penalty to players or monsters like they have been doing.

GET RID OF THE CLUNKINESS.