Trian94 wrote: »

You are simply blind to the answers due to lack of knowledge, no offence. You literally called the way a set interacts with the game's mechanics nonsense. There's no harder proof than that

I'm blind because there's no video or demonstrative evidence for the claim. Provide it, or commenting isn't valuable and just back and forth.

I don't take anything for fact that isn't already well-established or otherwise proven without demonstrating evidence. As someone skeptical of the claim, why exactly should I believe you?

I'm not convinced because you guys haven't offered any convincing evidence. I'm not trying to argue, look over exactly what you said and then explain how it's demonstrates what you are claiming. But even then, you still need to answer those questions.

Here's an example, let's use that duration and uptime argument:

Okay, duration increased...

I. So the person purges

II. Then what happens next? The Serpents user has to reapply the debuffs

III. And if not all of the debuffs, apparently it's not as oppressive

IV. But to get all of the debuffs they have to enter melee range and use a dodge able skill

^ The question I have is during all of this time, what is the person fighting the Serpent's Disdain user doing or not able to do?

The whole idea that I'm getting is that the set is strong because of automation and persistent effects, but PURGE exists. All effects cannot be place in an instant of time and take more than one action from the Serpent's user, some of the actions that apply effects are dodgeable. One requires melee range?

If that's the case, how exactly is it oppressive and why exactly is it if the person can theoretically roll and reduce the effectiveness of the set, purge and reduce the effectiveness, or the good old ...you know... just kill the person before they kill them?

You need to explain that. Or someone does, and they haven't. Instead running to ad-homs and other nonsense that has nothing to do with the argument at hand. Explain the above with demonstrative evidence.

If you cannot or will not, then there is not point in replying.

Still a lack of answers for two questions and instead ad-homs. I honestly cannot understand it.

it's strange that players can post as much bait as they want on this forum, but they cannot answer a simple question.

I'm not trying to offend you. There's not even a video attached to demonstrate exactly how oppressive it is. Just someone saying it is, bringing up other build items to support the argument, CP, etc. -- all of which actually do the opposite and do not show that it is OP in my opinon.

I do not know your "skill", relevance, or any of that. Everyone on the forum is the same to me. All weighted the same.

If someone had 100% uptime, then you didn't have purge and you didn't take any offensive action to force them to do something else. It literally means the person they are fighting didn't put any sort of real offensive pressure back.

Now, the strange thing is that I would expect that from the myriad of one shot builds not a build that gives time to heal, move away, cc, purge, roll, close the distance, etc.

The fact that the build even needs melee range in the first place makes it subpar IMO vs. other builds that can also stack effects and burst for way more than that even at a range.

Again, the fixation on the set is strange when the problem you are talking about won't be solved by simply nerfing this set.

Yet again, I don't use it so I do not care if they nerf it. What I do care about is the logic behind nerfing it.

We cannot have someone just come up, call for a nerf, provide no real examples and no real demostrative evidence besides suppositions that can easily be refuted and literally are illogical to anyone that's done any bit of combat in this game, then go along with the flow.

No. Provide an aswer to those two questions, and now also provide actual proof that this is even oppresive in the first place.

Bringing up maarselok, a mythic, class masteries, etc. -- all of these things that are already complained about excluding the set is strange in a discussion about the set! Every single one of those things are powerful and overtuned on its own.

If that's the logic to get something nerfed, please tell me what gear you all are using. I want to make a thread just like this to get it nerfed. Building around any gear or concept in this game almost always causes something to get broken and too powerful once you make an extreme build.

Trian94 wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

Trian94 wrote: »

How can you make all these claims if you don't use the set? Take your first sentence for example, it's entirely false since I've used the set in open world 1vX and it works wonders even against people who can purge.
The argument is that this set was never fine before any mythic or item set came out that compliments it.

I'll ignore the fallacy. Let's get into your own words:

So you killing someone with a set makes it OP? Please continue. While you're at it, explain how and why players you attacked with it and gave time to fight back failed to do so and why?

Explain why the roll button, LOS, etc. weren't a counter.

Also explain why they didn't just cc or otherwise fight back against you.

Lastly, explain how it's more oppressive with or without the set and explain how this set being nerfed or even "adjusted" w/e term we want to use, would alleviate anything in those situations.

I literally cannot see it.

I've already explained why the set is overpowered in this thread. They all tried everything you mentioned and it didn't matter both in 1vX situations and in some 1v1s vs experienced players as well. Because I can apply every status effect debuff and dot imagineable at the cost of one free skill and 1 skill that costs 2k stamina (blood for blood if vampire which costs health) all of which lasts for like 20 seconds and can be reapplied at zero cost. And imagine that my version of the serpent build wasn't the most powerful there is. I was also using pure sorc.

It was part of the most powerful builds since before subclassing.

If you dont get that then I there is no point discussing it with you

Find an argument that proves your point without mentioning "skill" or "experience." That kind of argument doesn't hold water because it's irrelevant. And it's irrelevant because who decides what is and what is not skill? Who decides what "experienced" means?

Again with vagueness. Also, even without that set I can apply every status effect in 2 moves too, and I even have it automated. So even a long that line of logic it's still an invalid argument because other sets still enable essentially the same thing.

A lot of people don't realize that ZOS actually has many sets that have different effects that essentially all do the same exact thing in the end, which is why it makes little sense to bother nerfing some of these sets if the core issue you have isn't actually the set but: "free damage", the fact that your builds can't purge, the fact that they don't have enough healing to counter the damage, etc.

That's the core of it. They can nerf the set, but I still want to know exactly what you guys find this set to be insane over v. all the other sets that exist and still enable the same or similar outcomes in the end.

And no one is providing an answer. Just vagueness and agreeing that the set should be nerfed because they said so.

Burtan wrote: »

You can dodge rending slashes for example but try doing it another 5 times in a row when the person is spamming it on you. It is absolutely not reasonable to expect people to just dodge status effects.

These status effects will often be applied passively by skills that serve other purposes such as being a spammable like blood for blood, there is no downtime to re-apply dots, because these dots are passively being applied. Ele Sus is another great example, constantly re-applying itself.

I said this set is overperforming because it is the prime choice in multiple categories, something i have said multiple times in this thread.

Disdain is the best PvP debuff set as it provides near permanent uptime on debuffs that surpass anything a set can provide with any reasonable uptime.

Disdain also now comes out as the most reliable pressure set alongside its debuffs due to near permanent uptime on haemorrhage, poisoned and burning, which comes out to more dps than a pressure proc set such as unleashed terror or hunters venom. These proc sets may have higher damage in small window if all these status effects are somehow also up at the same time(unlikely), however the low uptime makes them highly mitigate-able and undesirable compared to serpent.

This set has been an issue for a long time, it was just a niche that not many knew about. Seeing relequen gave me some hope that sets like these could be changed.

Again, still cannot understand. You saying it's the prime choice doen't mean anything. It's literally just an opinion. I don't think it's the prime choice and others here apparently don't either apparently. Cyrodiil isn't full of people running Serpent's either.

The sustained damage alone from those effects is not going to kill anyone. If it does, they need to look at their build or run purge, and yet again, what exactly are they doing?

The crazy part is that you are using someone spamming rending slashes. So someone would spam it in melee range and you're just standing there? I cannot understand the argument you are making because it makes NO SENSE.

How can anyone just stand and spam rending or any other dodgeable skill and you not dodge, then simply do enough damage back, CC, snare, immobilize and move around in an arc, etc. to force them to do something else? In reality, it will never happen that way. Maybe if someone drained your stamina, drained your magicka and caught you like that, yeah.

Otherwise, no.

It just doesn't make any sense. If someone spammed that skill in melee on me, I would be happy. I don't have to chase or gap close them anymore.

The other part that makes no sense is that these skills, even if you purged them, still take more than one action to all put back on. It's not all put back on with a single button, and the three that are can already be spammed without the set anyway.

Sure we can say not all purges remove all negative effects, snares have priority, stuns have priority on cleanse so one or more might be left, BUT again... now we are talking about the rest of the build and not just Serpent's.

What exactly is being gained?

Elemental reapplying as an argument isn't even logical to mention because it does it anyway. Why would an increased duration matter?

Oh no, burning damage...how lethal...

Unless, you're having more than one stacked on you. Unless you're running behind a wall and its still ticking on you.

Oh yeah, that could matter. But we're no longer talking about balance in good faith anymore when we start bringing in arguments related to 1vX. Know why? Because it's not the game's job or the devs to alleviate and make that easier for anyone. If it is, then the devs have a LOT of work to do. I can summon 50 pages of changes to make 1vX easier, at least for me.

To say something is OP because it makes it harder to run around a tower, or force the player to take an active role in defense vs. high burst tanky run in their face and destroy them gameplay is exactly why balance is so poor on live in the first place.

First let's pre-empt the argument about player skill you'll probably try to bring up. Do not bring it up. It is not important to me or overall balance discussions. In fact, I think the game takes no skill especially in this patch. So I will pre-empt it now and say do not bring that argument. Now let's go:

Burtan wrote: »

Sources of status effects are mostly dodgeable. yes. They also come from highly spammable skills and last 20s thanks to Serpent's Disdain. You are not avoiding them and they are too frequently applied in too high of a quantity to be countered by purges.

So you concede that the sources of status effects are dodgeable...but then claim it's oppressive because of the frequency they are applied? Then why don't yoyu dodge? It makes no sense.

I can guess the build is a stam sorc, standing ground, which didn't usually have to deal with DoTs and eliminated people fast. Then this set and that mythic appears and suddenly you have to feel the stress of managing damage from status effects that used to be easily healed through or avoided.

That does not make the set overperforming just because it counters a meta build. It has yet to be demonstrated how.

The frequency of damage being applied? It's the same frequency with or without serpent's disdain. Even the same overlapping effects only have certain instances in an interval of time where they would tick twice, until we start making more build decisions beyobnd Serpent's Disdain . And if someone is putting their entire build into a specialization, is that really a reason to nerf a set? Because it counters your build too well?

It's not adding up logically.

Burtan wrote: »

This set is also not stopping people from "running around towers with infinite resources", nobody has infinite resources, they are just managing their resources properly with well optimised builds and they will continue to do so whether this set exists or not. I would argue the only thing that stands to stop this gameplay you dislike so much is the vengeance campaign.

I don't like nor dislike players running around. If they want to do it, go ahead. I am not the one trying to get a mid-tier set nerfed because it stops that kind of gameplay and pressures people that don't run enough HoTs or otherwise LoS. The set does not harm my gameplay and does nothing to me. That's why I cannot understand why it does to you and others complaining about it.

Burtan wrote: »

This set has enabled overpowered builds for a long time, it was just a niche thing not many players knew about.

This set was already overperforming before the new mythic was added, it provided and still provides better debuffs than debuff sets and better pressure than dot sets and also interacts with a number of otherwise non-problematic things such as maarselok and force of nature CP.

This was and is the top choice in multiple categories by a large margin, the new mythic is just making it even worse.

The set was overperforming...because it was overperforming? So you said so, that means it's a fact? Thing is, I don't think it is overperforming. So now, where can you provide proof that it is? I don't mean some guy on the forums agreeing.

The set by itself cannot do anything without the rest of a build. It's not a secret sauce underneath a mountain of cheese on a pizza. It's a mid tier set that only finds use now because of player behavior and overall build decisons. The decisions and behavior being dropping purge, dropping HoTs precisely because DoTs/status damage is not and was not prevalent on live for the past patches.

Also, earlier about purge. Come on, we both know no stam sorc is running purge. Because the skill purge is a waste of a slot and the skill llines that provide it are also waste skill lines due to the nature of PvP (general lack of DoT and sustained damage outside of siege). No one even runs purge on a scribed skill. But of course, we can pretend someone does for argument's sake.

If they purged, then the guy wasted an action to put the same DoTs back on...why isn't the person fighting the Serpent's Disdain user just...you know...doing damage back?

These are all questions that are not being answered, in exchange we just hear that a set is OP because you said so?

All names on this forum are unweighted to me. You want something nerfed, then please bring actual arguments and proof instead of saying it's oppresive but then failing to mention exactly how.

Even Elemental Susceptibility, looking at it with or without Serpent's Disdain, how exactly is it more powerful? Because in some instants of time there will be more than one tick of damage from a status effect? I can achieve the same without Serpent's , so if that is the argument you'll be in for a surprise when the same type of behavior is done without Serpents and much more powerful.