Arunei wrote: »

Why does everyone keep going on about the NM being designated as a group Zone like it was advertised as strictly being for groups? It feels like so many people are being disingenuous to try and make an argument here.

The NM was marketed as being something where grouping was encouraged, not required and as something meant for both groups AND experienced solo players. Why are so many people deadset on ignoring this fact and just doubling down on "it's a group Zone"? It was never advertised as group-only so it would be nice if people would stop replying as though solo players were never meant to succeed here. They were. They said it in the livestream, it's mentioned in the article. Solo players ARE at least supposed to have a place in the NM according to their marketing.

Why does everyone go on about it being designed for groups?
Because they said it was. Repeatedly.

Just because they had some very carefully worded statements of "you will find it difficult if you're solo" doesn't mean that it's designed to be completable by the average solo player anyone can grab off the streets.

The fact is that grouping is not required. You can zerg surf as well, which is not a formal group. Players who have a lot of experience (aka have done Flawless Conqueror) can solo it. So yes, it's soloable; they were not lying. But yes, if you randomly picked a player from the entire playerbase and asked them to solo it, chances are they do not have the skill/gear required for it. Which again is not a problem. The problem is if this person doesn't want to learn and instead rages that the world whould bend to them and not the other way around.

This is the main issue I see. It's the difference between experienced soloists who struggle and think "I need to adjust my build to do better" versus the soloists who think "the content is wrong because I shouldn't have to change." Again, the former is the thinking that will allow someone to do the Night Market, while the latter may not realize what the problem really is.

I know some people have been demanding that we show builds, so here's what I wear:

Now this is really just my zerg-surf PvP stuff from a while back, but it works for me. It's not optimized. When I'm in a group, I change to my normal dungeon setup, but if I'm on my own, this is what I'm wearing.
I have zero issues with the mobs, save for the fact that I have like -2 DPS so each pull can take like 3 minutes. I went in last night around midnight and comfortably did the "kill 25/50/75" enemies quest, and even found one or two other players at one of the bosses to get that one down too. I'm mainly checking off the District quests and the one-eyed vampire kitty's kill things quest when I'm solo. It's slow, but it works.

Nice to see at least one positive thread about Night Market. I enjoy the difficulty, I enjoy the mechanisms, I enjoy the bosses, I enjoy the flow of the zerg (sorry PvPers, but I still enjoy riding the zerg in Cyro).

It's an awesome wee zone. I do hope we get more Night Markets in the future. Maybe with a bit better rewards and more in game explanations next time.

Soarora wrote: »

E_Lucan wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

I saw someone say this (I couldn't find the thread they'd said it in after going back to look. I'll edit their name in if I find it) and I think it's a really good point that needs more consideration.

People seem to be really complaining because the NM is something new to them and they don't understand or care to prepare for it. So imagine if trials were newly added to the game just now– a place where players have to group up, prepare, and learn.
How many would be complaining since that content is harder than what they're used to? How would trials seem to folks on day one launch if it was mostly just DPS' using story quest sets with no support roles?

I haven't had enough chance to truly interact with the NM to get a solid stance on it, and before its launch I thought I wouldn't even be interested in it. But from what I played I felt engaged, and I'm saddened to see how much instant negative feedback there is with the NM... it's really not that despicable seeming.



I chose to never touch solstice. How does NM compare to writhing wall?

I think you (or well the original commenter) raise a good point regarding trials, but at the same time I think it's about the context in which these activities exist. Trials are understood to be endgame content for players who want a challenge, whereas events and new DLC zones have long been something very accessible to the whole spectrum of players in terms of difficulty. I've had no problem writing Vet HM trials off as not for me, but there are many people who are used to participating in new content (events/new DLC zones) who are now finding that this year's new content just isn't doable for them in the way that they like to play - neither playing top meta builds in vet HM trials nor playing casually is wrong or worse than the other, it's just that long-running expectations are clashing with reality imo.

If the NM was established in the minds of the community as content solely for vet HM trial players (or similarly geared/experienced players), those more casual people would likely avoid it and it would get less negative feedback as a result. Yes, they made it clear that it would be difficult, but I don't think it really got across how difficult it is, and also that the structure is way different from previous difficult content - you basically have to group up with a trial group due to the instance population cap, which is a different experience from the WW/harrowstorm/dragon fight style difficult content where players just naturally gather in an area and fight together.

It was probably me who said this. I think I said it twice or thrice during PTS and once yesterday and haven’t seen anyone else make the same kinda comment that I recall. I was excited seeing this post like “AHH ITS NOT JUST ME WHO CAME TO THAT CONCLUSION!” just to see that it’s potentially based on what I said LOL.

Anyway, I 100% agree that ZOS should have advertised this as a group zone that’s more like a trial and dungeon mashup… and I’ve been saying that too, actually LOL. They did say it was challenging, but they put too much emphasis on “you could follow a group around if you go in solo”. They can’t increase the player cap too much or bosses will get demolished like world bosses during overland events. But they also can’t expect people to chase groups around when the player cap is so low. Night Market should have a modified version of the pop-up that occurs when you try to enter a trial solo… that tells you this is group content, not a story zone.

Do we know what the zones actually are?

IE, are the three districts considered one zone?

Because if each district was considered its own zone, then they could potentially lower the caps but just fill them up as people enter them

CalamityCat wrote: »

I do feel there is a lot of over reaction to the Night Market, because as a very average player with old pure class builds, I'm having so much fun in there. My partner is similarly non-elite. The mechanics and such don't feel nearly as complicated as I'm used to. Yeah, I get 1-shotted but I'm used to fake tank dungeon runs where that is regularly a "feature" when a boss isn't taunted. It shouldn't be a big surprise when it happens in the Market too.

I will say the instancing is sometimes tricky if you want to simply tag along with a group and they're not where you need them. But hopefully that's something the devs can improve for the next NM event. I've just used group finder to locate people in the area I want. The solo players could do the same, teleport to the group lead and then quit the group if they wanted to avoid any formal grouping and follow a zerg.

What does baffle me with some solo player complaints is that we already have dungeons and trials which are group content. Even if some players can solo some, it's still group content. So many things in the game are harder or much slower if you don't group, even if it's informal. This is one of them and it's okay for it to be group orientated. I can be a very solitary person and wary around new people, but I'm happy to team up when it's obviously the best way to tackle harder content. Yeah it goes far outside my comfort zone sometimes, but it's nothing in comparison to say a job interview or first date, so I just take my khajiit by the scruff and chuck her in groups I know when it's a "me" problem and I don't expect the game to always cater to my slightly feline attitude to people lol.

I think a lot of the issue is that, while we have other group content, this is group content that *is leaving after so long*, so any rewards they might want, they can easily miss out on.

The other group content, they can get those rewards at any point, because that group content stays.

I said this in another thread, but they (the developers) put things that players want (for me it is the dye) behind a time limited event. We can guess that the Night Market will come back at least two more times, BUT, each time, if you want more than one dye (I want at least the gold dye), or more than one faction's rewards, you have to join a different faction, locking you out of those rewards for the other factions.

Which means, you have one shot if you want all three dyes (I want them, but won't be particularly sad if I miss the reddish one).

After that, we don't know how those rewards will be. Will the next time the night market comes along (after the original three times) use the same rewards? Will they switch out rewards to keep it 'fresh' for the players who already did it and thus don't need to obtain any of the rewards? Will they keep the old rewards and just add new ones in? No one, at this point, knows the answer to that.

Which means, people are now fearing that they might miss out on the rewards they want (and for those who joined other factions than the leading one, they have missed their shot to get the rewards for the 'winning' faction once already.

I don't know how all the rewards are distributed (IE I don't know how to obtain the dye), so I don't know if the losing factions will also be able to obtain that dye (and whatever other rewards there are) even though their factions aren't in the lead. I don't know how many rewards will not be obtainable by the people who did not choose thousand eyes this time around (because I am pretty sure that next time the majority of people are going to choose a different faction).

So, TL;DR is that it is difficulty, group, and time gated content that offers rewards that people want. Then the developers added that it is possible to solo, even if they didn't mean that it is possible to solo by any but the people who know exactly what sets and what skills to choose to solo it. Yes, they did mention that it would be hard, but by leaving that it is possible to solo, it makes it seem like people should at least not be instakilled the minute they get near a trash mob.

Love how this thread was about having empathy and perhaps some patience & consideration and then it gets the same posts as other threads being derogative about casuals & you just need to group/git good. 🙄

I am what might be considered an ‘elite’ player. I spend most of my time in game doing vet hm on trials & dungeons. So the NM should be right up my street, yeah?

No. It’s awful. Just awful. It’s so badly designed I almost believe it’s done by AI.

Make it too hard for the majority of players, most of whom do not like big grouping, and play this game solo or with a couple of friends, and you wonder why people complain?

Oh but this is for those that enjoy group play, you say. Just join a group via GF and all will be rosy. With a pop cap of 36? Lol. Read the posts of those who have tried. And given up.

And if it is for group play, why make it such a grind? I’ve given up hope of doing the trial or dungeon or whatever because the time & logistics of first getting a group together, then all getting the right number of <whatever> to progress to the next bit, in a certain time frame as most of us have a life outside this game, seems ridiculous & unachievable.

And then, if I want to do the trial or dungeon again, I have to do the grind again?! Hell no.

In previous content for those ‘group players’ there are varying levels of difficulty, making it accessible to virtually everyone. Th NM is not.

And the idea that this is good as it gets players out of their comfort zone & makes them ‘get better’ is arrogant nonsense. Who are you to tell people how the should play & enjoy themselves? Not everyone plays a video game to stroke their own ego & become a dps (or whatever) god. My self worth is not dependant on killing pixilated enemies.

And for those who say there are areas of the game that they don’t like & don’t play, so why should everyone be able to everything - well, a major content drop that is making a lot of people not want to play the game AT ALL, is not the same as people not wanting to do housing or ToT.

Stop dividing the playerbase. Calling people casuals or elites or whatever. We all play the game and want it to succeed, but this is sadly another mis-step. And their owners won’t tolerate too many mis-steps. Especially if the money stops coming in.

@coop500 ...I read your post OP and felt so much empathy which is rare these days, thank you. ❤️

I was going to create my own post but here you are with a voice for us that have struggled with Night market, not cos we are deliberately being rdbellious, not because we hate group content but simply cos we cannot beat it.

I no longer pvp like i used to back in the day in eso but when it is the mayhem event i go into cyro and give it a good go.

I am not in a raiding guild atm but i have farmed gear sets by joining LFG trials and i really loved healing those trials. I enjoyed the pug comraderie. I am not adversed to grouping with new and vet peeps

I pug dungeons all the time as a healer for transmutes and pledges.

I got my hubby to return to eso amd we enjoy IA.

What breaks my heart is that i /we have been locked out of this Night market content cos we could not find groups from the start of it and we went to the plaza all excited , we joined the faction we had researched and liked and then finalky we go in...theres one other random player, bless him and we start killing mobs....hubby in his tank build and myself in dd plus heals and we did kill a group of mobs but they respawned so fast that we were innundated or overpowered by insane damage. It just seemed too much

Note ive been playing eso since launch 2014 with just a few breaks. I know about LA, animation cancellation, cp, gear etc etc.
Im realising that many solo players that can solo it are pvp players, other use stealth builds with wizard wardrobe and then switch builds...many players had a head start in pts so now they know what to do.
Today i wanted to give it another go and i looked in group finder only to get confused by the lingo,or acronyms. I didnt know .
what group to join. Some groups were asking for relics...i had no clue what for.

Not every player plays on the pts.
We pay for a game we feel we are locked out of certain content, im not crying. I want to enjoy all eso content.

I am skipping it
I don't enjoy pointless slogs
It does not exist

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

I also have a question related to this.

What exactly is a zone? IE, is each district its own zone? Or are all three districts in one single zone?

AScarlato wrote: »

36 is way too small for this content - especially if that covers the town and all 3 areas at once.

I have been trying to articulate a way to ask this, what DOES it cover.

Because yeah, if it covers all three zones AND the nightmarket, then of course the districts are going to be empty.

It sounds like all of the areas once you enter the Night Market are considered the same zone. I don’t remember seeing a loading screen when you open the door to the Skittering, Parch, or the Sorrow areas.

I also have a question related to this.

What exactly is a zone? IE, is each district its own zone? Or are all three districts in one single zone?

AScarlato wrote: »

36 is way too small for this content - especially if that covers the town and all 3 areas at once.

I have been trying to articulate a way to ask this, what DOES it cover.

Because yeah, if it covers all three zones AND the nightmarket, then of course the districts are going to be empty.