ShutUpitsRed wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

If PVE had zero population, terrible performance, and a decade long track record of failed attempts to improve both, then such a test would be warranted.

Vengeance critics always miss this part, acting as if ZOS has nothing better to do than torment them, and not subject the rest of the community to these sorts of tests.

PvE having a huge population with few issues is why DPS dungeon queues are so long? Trials are difficult for which to find groups? Personally I've been server kicked from PvE instances far more than in PvP and have had equally bad performance issues in trials as PvP. Don't even get me started on the quest bugs. Meanwhile, Cyrodiil is population locked during primetime and PUGs are almost always running. There's good and bad aspects of both PvE and PvP.

What's annoying PvPers is PvEers coming into Vengeance and saying it's better and "outvoting" what actual PvPers say; there's more PvEer than PvPers. People who main PvP have to do a LOT of PvE to get their sets and resources et cetera, so why can't we do something like a Vengeance test there too? PvPers should be able to go into vet trials without creating and testing and spending resources on an appropriate PvE build then, right? It's about skill after all, isn't it? Personally, I would highly prefer not having to spend resources and time figuring out a PvE build, it feels fair since I don't care about PvE besides what I can get out of it.

Your DPS ques are long because nobody wants to tank and healing is only necessary for the hardest content such that healers are often seen as an afterthought.

It is not hard to find a trials group. Craglorn is full of people looking to PUG them and there are far more PvE oriented guilds that run them regularly. I would hope Cyrodiil would lock its tiny pop cap for a few hours on prime time, and they manage to do this - barely. As a DC, I often get a single digit que if I have to wait at all. Not a ringing endorsement.

There are more PvEers than PvPers for a reason, which is essentially the crux of the issue here. If not enough PvPers are coming out to support the game or vote enough to convince ZOS that PvP in its current weight is worth investing in, that speaks for itself.

Ideally, no, you shouldn't be able to walk into a vet trial without investing any resources in an appropriate build. But the reality of the situation is that you can, right now, without any need for a Vengeance test. The BIS PvE gear is only a few percentage points better than craftable crit oriented gear setup based on something like Order's Wrath. A skilled played with Order's will out DPS a noob with the best gear by quite a bit. Besides, because PvE is more about outputting enough DPS to defeat the final boss rather than playing better than a human opponent, as long as you are good enough (or with ten other really good players), you can win PVE all the time, regardless of gear. So, there isn't a need for BIS gear unless you are looking to finish first on a leaderboard. PvE is much more about player skill than it is about gear. You already have your wish; you need not worry about spending time and resources figuring out a PvE build (not that it was particularly hard to do so: 30 second Google search or just go to SkinnyCheek's website).

As much as the Vengeance critics keep bagging on Vengeance as EZ mode or dumbed down for PvEers, the reality is that it also is much more about player skill than anything else. A mid player can not and will not beat a very good player in Vengeance. This was especially true in the second Vengeance test because Vengeance isn't what its critics keep saying - everyone in the same build (even if it was, players being exactly equal would be the ultimate test of player skill) - and those who have the knowledge, skill, and experience were able to use all that to take advantage of the more options that were available in the second test.

So, no, I don't buy that player skill is the crux of the reason behind the criticism of Vengeance. I think it's exactly what you said: more people are voicing their preference for a different version of PvP than what the few remaining regulars prefer and play. They thus feel threatened that what they prefer will be replaced by what has greater appeal to the ESO population. Which is legit. These regulars are paying customers and deserve to have their feelings/concerns voiced. That's fine. But that is the reality of being a paying customer to a strictly niche product. What ZOS is doing isn't motivated by anything personal against PvPers. The idea that ZOS should just pull a Vengeance test on PvEers is not a good comparison as doing so would be primarily motived by personal reasons.

I doubt they'll do this currently, since they've discussed how these are above all, performance tests, and they need a large population of players (ideally including as many as possible who actually act like normal pvp'ers), to get the performance data they need. Also vengeance is currently an unfinished product.

Down the line as vengeance approaches its "final" form, I would hope they'd gather data on player interest if they intend to keep the mode or something like it. I hope the Vengeance data can be used to improve the experience in "regular" cyro (ie: Grey Host), rather than replace cyro pvp entirely, so I agree it would be useful to eventually see how viable it would be for both modes to be offered at the same time.