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Re: U50 Feedback Thread for Combat Refresh: Werewolf
huskandhunger wrote: »Anyone can slap on high health and still have damage, even non-werewolf users. And yes they too will die much the same, see we are actually in agreement 🤝
? Nobody on the live server can slap on 50k HP and do 8-9k DPS. You wanna bet 10 mil gold on it?
hoangdz
2
Re: U50 Feedback Thread for Combat Refresh: Werewolf
huskandhunger wrote: »huskandhunger wrote: »Wolfchild07 wrote: »1 vs 1 means nothing. When duels were added, it was a mistake. There are, thankfully, no 1 vs 1 competitions in the game. Why are you running around solo in a war zone unless you’re really good, really stupid, or just don’t care?
A werewolf ball group vs a non-werewolf ball group will lose everytime. The werewolves will jump in and melt to the stacked non-werewolf ult dump. Werewolf needs major defences added to it.
Yes I could not agree more about the defense part, and the devs could start by returning the unique 10k armor it used to have.huskandhunger wrote: »Erickson9610 wrote: »IncultaWolf wrote: »Can we please stop the bickering back and forth? I'd love to get back to actual constructive feedback for our combat/balance devs.
I've seen a lot of talk about why or why not werewolf should be as strong as a two-bar setup. I think with these reworks it should be as strong as Dragonknight, but werewolf NEEDS drawbacks for being one-bar and currently it does have those which I will list. Dragonknights on the live server right now are capable of pressing 3 buttons and nuking multiple players back-to-back, while having almost infinite sustain, cross heals, chain pull, ranged aoe damage, major expedition, snare removal, good defense, and more. I have no issue with this and have never asked for nerfs since the new class refresh.
Playing werewolf, you have a LOT of drawbacks such as increased poison damage taken, no weapon passives, forced to deal with a transformation timer system, no cross healing, no purge or snare removals, limited healing while kiting and not actively on top of a player, no range damage, no burst damage, no shields, lack of group utility or support ultimates, cannot place siege, cannot restore magicka via heavy attacks for the only on-demand heal in the toolkit, no access to scribing, most class passives do not work in form, no proper crouch/sneak, cannot use skill scrolls, can't mount in form, meaning you can't keep up with others going between keeps in Cyrodiil, several mythics don't work for us, like Rakkhat's Voidmantle.
@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_BrianWheeler
Werewolf is designed as a melee brawler with strengths and drawbacks. Simply put, melee range is Werewolf's domain. If you are in melee range fighting a Werewolf, you are not fighting it correctly.
Werewolf cannot attack you from range, only gap close into melee range. Werewolf cannot purge negative effects like snares and damage over time, and has a limited Magicka pool to burn on self healing when there is no target in their melee range to gain health from.
Certain Class kits are built around being in melee range (like Templar and Dragonknight), but the human form always has the flexibility to build differently. There are ranged alternatives to those playstyles, and you can even swap between melee and ranged with the loadout of your two skill bars. Werewolf is permanently stuck as this melee brawler archetype.
Since we cannot test Update 50's Werewolf in Cyrodiil on the PTS, we aren't seeing the full picture. You're expected to be in melee range in a duel, so Werewolf is going to shine in that environment. Once we see Update 50's Werewolf in Cyrodiil, you'll find how easy it is to counter them.
Werewolves's healing via Bloodclaws scales per target struck, doesn't it? So Werewolves survival should be even better against more than one target. There aren't many skills who scale their healing in such a way.
It's the same value per target which is very similar to what already exists in the game in the form of the necromancer Scythe ability
ZoS even put a cap of 6 as well on the PTS maybe we should remove the cap, what do you think?huskandhunger wrote: »Erickson9610 wrote: »IncultaWolf wrote: »Can we please stop the bickering back and forth? I'd love to get back to actual constructive feedback for our combat/balance devs.
I've seen a lot of talk about why or why not werewolf should be as strong as a two-bar setup. I think with these reworks it should be as strong as Dragonknight, but werewolf NEEDS drawbacks for being one-bar and currently it does have those which I will list. Dragonknights on the live server right now are capable of pressing 3 buttons and nuking multiple players back-to-back, while having almost infinite sustain, cross heals, chain pull, ranged aoe damage, major expedition, snare removal, good defense, and more. I have no issue with this and have never asked for nerfs since the new class refresh.
Playing werewolf, you have a LOT of drawbacks such as increased poison damage taken, no weapon passives, forced to deal with a transformation timer system, no cross healing, no purge or snare removals, limited healing while kiting and not actively on top of a player, no range damage, no burst damage, no shields, lack of group utility or support ultimates, cannot place siege, cannot restore magicka via heavy attacks for the only on-demand heal in the toolkit, no access to scribing, most class passives do not work in form, no proper crouch/sneak, cannot use skill scrolls, can't mount in form, meaning you can't keep up with others going between keeps in Cyrodiil, several mythics don't work for us, like Rakkhat's Voidmantle.
@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_BrianWheeler
Werewolf is designed as a melee brawler with strengths and drawbacks. Simply put, melee range is Werewolf's domain. If you are in melee range fighting a Werewolf, you are not fighting it correctly.
Werewolf cannot attack you from range, only gap close into melee range. Werewolf cannot purge negative effects like snares and damage over time, and has a limited Magicka pool to burn on self healing when there is no target in their melee range to gain health from.
Certain Class kits are built around being in melee range (like Templar and Dragonknight), but the human form always has the flexibility to build differently. There are ranged alternatives to those playstyles, and you can even swap between melee and ranged with the loadout of your two skill bars. Werewolf is permanently stuck as this melee brawler archetype.
Since we cannot test Update 50's Werewolf in Cyrodiil on the PTS, we aren't seeing the full picture. You're expected to be in melee range in a duel, so Werewolf is going to shine in that environment. Once we see Update 50's Werewolf in Cyrodiil, you'll find how easy it is to counter them.
Werewolves's healing via Bloodclaws scales per target struck, doesn't it? So Werewolves survival should be even better against more than one target. There aren't many skills who scale their healing in such a way.
It's the same value per target which is very similar to what already exists in the game in the form of the necromancer Scythe ability
ZoS even put a cap of 6 as well on the PTS maybe we should remove the cap, what do you think?
Yes, and I did say that it exists, although not often. My point stands. Werewolves's survivability is scalable, hence not confined to mere duels.
Have you tried surviving as a werewolf vs.multiple 28m range attackers using bows and destruction staves and scribing abilities?
If you haven't tried it on the Live Version you should because PTS werewolf will still encounter the same problems and get mowed down just as fast in an actual combat setting in Cyro.
Duels are meaningless because they are confined to a small circle you cannot leave or you lose the duel. I actually think they should remove dueling from the game entirely, we are not an e-sports or competitive landscape, it's a fantasy game, let's not delude ourselves.
No doubt. I see this being a problem for sure as for any pure melee build.
Except for melee Dragonknight which has 50% damage reduction vs. ranged attacks with their wings. They even are given snare removal and major expedition.
And this is why the spurious claims about Werewolf health and healing which are limited by range, high ability cost, and a lack of any similar tools that current Live Dragonknight can reach for are blatantly hypocritical and misleading.
You are right about the first part, but the part with Werewolf having high ability cost is deceptive, because a build whose main damage comes from light attacking and passive healing, the actual ressource drain will be low. The average drain in most fights seem to be only 700-900 stamina/s. So you can make due with base recoveries and not run out.
This only trivializes further as there is a larger health pool as a buffer. On a low health build you can be more easily pressured into dodging. I don't really have a point with this or try to insinuate anything. Being out of ressources constantly is annoying and I am glad they make ressource sustain more abundant over time.
Dracane
1
Re: U50 Feedback Thread for Combat Refresh: Werewolf
huskandhunger wrote: »Erickson9610 wrote: »IncultaWolf wrote: »Can we please stop the bickering back and forth? I'd love to get back to actual constructive feedback for our combat/balance devs.
I've seen a lot of talk about why or why not werewolf should be as strong as a two-bar setup. I think with these reworks it should be as strong as Dragonknight, but werewolf NEEDS drawbacks for being one-bar and currently it does have those which I will list. Dragonknights on the live server right now are capable of pressing 3 buttons and nuking multiple players back-to-back, while having almost infinite sustain, cross heals, chain pull, ranged aoe damage, major expedition, snare removal, good defense, and more. I have no issue with this and have never asked for nerfs since the new class refresh.
Playing werewolf, you have a LOT of drawbacks such as increased poison damage taken, no weapon passives, forced to deal with a transformation timer system, no cross healing, no purge or snare removals, limited healing while kiting and not actively on top of a player, no range damage, no burst damage, no shields, lack of group utility or support ultimates, cannot place siege, cannot restore magicka via heavy attacks for the only on-demand heal in the toolkit, no access to scribing, most class passives do not work in form, no proper crouch/sneak, cannot use skill scrolls, can't mount in form, meaning you can't keep up with others going between keeps in Cyrodiil, several mythics don't work for us, like Rakkhat's Voidmantle.
@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_BrianWheeler
Werewolf is designed as a melee brawler with strengths and drawbacks. Simply put, melee range is Werewolf's domain. If you are in melee range fighting a Werewolf, you are not fighting it correctly.
Werewolf cannot attack you from range, only gap close into melee range. Werewolf cannot purge negative effects like snares and damage over time, and has a limited Magicka pool to burn on self healing when there is no target in their melee range to gain health from.
Certain Class kits are built around being in melee range (like Templar and Dragonknight), but the human form always has the flexibility to build differently. There are ranged alternatives to those playstyles, and you can even swap between melee and ranged with the loadout of your two skill bars. Werewolf is permanently stuck as this melee brawler archetype.
Since we cannot test Update 50's Werewolf in Cyrodiil on the PTS, we aren't seeing the full picture. You're expected to be in melee range in a duel, so Werewolf is going to shine in that environment. Once we see Update 50's Werewolf in Cyrodiil, you'll find how easy it is to counter them.
Werewolves's healing via Bloodclaws scales per target struck, doesn't it? So Werewolves survival should be even better against more than one target. There aren't many skills who scale their healing in such a way.
It's the same value per target which is very similar to what already exists in the game in the form of the necromancer Scythe ability
ZoS even put a cap of 6 as well on the PTS maybe we should remove the cap, what do you think?
huskandhunger wrote: »Erickson9610 wrote: »IncultaWolf wrote: »Can we please stop the bickering back and forth? I'd love to get back to actual constructive feedback for our combat/balance devs.
I've seen a lot of talk about why or why not werewolf should be as strong as a two-bar setup. I think with these reworks it should be as strong as Dragonknight, but werewolf NEEDS drawbacks for being one-bar and currently it does have those which I will list. Dragonknights on the live server right now are capable of pressing 3 buttons and nuking multiple players back-to-back, while having almost infinite sustain, cross heals, chain pull, ranged aoe damage, major expedition, snare removal, good defense, and more. I have no issue with this and have never asked for nerfs since the new class refresh.
Playing werewolf, you have a LOT of drawbacks such as increased poison damage taken, no weapon passives, forced to deal with a transformation timer system, no cross healing, no purge or snare removals, limited healing while kiting and not actively on top of a player, no range damage, no burst damage, no shields, lack of group utility or support ultimates, cannot place siege, cannot restore magicka via heavy attacks for the only on-demand heal in the toolkit, no access to scribing, most class passives do not work in form, no proper crouch/sneak, cannot use skill scrolls, can't mount in form, meaning you can't keep up with others going between keeps in Cyrodiil, several mythics don't work for us, like Rakkhat's Voidmantle.
@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_BrianWheeler
Werewolf is designed as a melee brawler with strengths and drawbacks. Simply put, melee range is Werewolf's domain. If you are in melee range fighting a Werewolf, you are not fighting it correctly.
Werewolf cannot attack you from range, only gap close into melee range. Werewolf cannot purge negative effects like snares and damage over time, and has a limited Magicka pool to burn on self healing when there is no target in their melee range to gain health from.
Certain Class kits are built around being in melee range (like Templar and Dragonknight), but the human form always has the flexibility to build differently. There are ranged alternatives to those playstyles, and you can even swap between melee and ranged with the loadout of your two skill bars. Werewolf is permanently stuck as this melee brawler archetype.
Since we cannot test Update 50's Werewolf in Cyrodiil on the PTS, we aren't seeing the full picture. You're expected to be in melee range in a duel, so Werewolf is going to shine in that environment. Once we see Update 50's Werewolf in Cyrodiil, you'll find how easy it is to counter them.
Werewolves's healing via Bloodclaws scales per target struck, doesn't it? So Werewolves survival should be even better against more than one target. There aren't many skills who scale their healing in such a way.
It's the same value per target which is very similar to what already exists in the game in the form of the necromancer Scythe ability
ZoS even put a cap of 6 as well on the PTS maybe we should remove the cap, what do you think?
Yes, and I did say that it exists, although not often. My point stands. Werewolves's survivability is scalable, hence not confined to mere duels.
Dracane
1
Re: U50 Feedback Thread for Combat Refresh: Werewolf
huskandhunger wrote: »just put your hand in my mouth
A bit too kinky there buddy
hoangdz
1
Re: U50 Feedback Thread for Combat Refresh: Werewolf
Erickson9610 wrote: »IncultaWolf wrote: »Can we please stop the bickering back and forth? I'd love to get back to actual constructive feedback for our combat/balance devs.
I've seen a lot of talk about why or why not werewolf should be as strong as a two-bar setup. I think with these reworks it should be as strong as Dragonknight, but werewolf NEEDS drawbacks for being one-bar and currently it does have those which I will list. Dragonknights on the live server right now are capable of pressing 3 buttons and nuking multiple players back-to-back, while having almost infinite sustain, cross heals, chain pull, ranged aoe damage, major expedition, snare removal, good defense, and more. I have no issue with this and have never asked for nerfs since the new class refresh.
Playing werewolf, you have a LOT of drawbacks such as increased poison damage taken, no weapon passives, forced to deal with a transformation timer system, no cross healing, no purge or snare removals, limited healing while kiting and not actively on top of a player, no range damage, no burst damage, no shields, lack of group utility or support ultimates, cannot place siege, cannot restore magicka via heavy attacks for the only on-demand heal in the toolkit, no access to scribing, most class passives do not work in form, no proper crouch/sneak, cannot use skill scrolls, can't mount in form, meaning you can't keep up with others going between keeps in Cyrodiil, several mythics don't work for us, like Rakkhat's Voidmantle.
@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_BrianWheeler
Werewolf is designed as a melee brawler with strengths and drawbacks. Simply put, melee range is Werewolf's domain. If you are in melee range fighting a Werewolf, you are not fighting it correctly.
Werewolf cannot attack you from range, only gap close into melee range. Werewolf cannot purge negative effects like snares and damage over time, and has a limited Magicka pool to burn on self healing when there is no target in their melee range to gain health from.
Certain Class kits are built around being in melee range (like Templar and Dragonknight), but the human form always has the flexibility to build differently. There are ranged alternatives to those playstyles, and you can even swap between melee and ranged with the loadout of your two skill bars. Werewolf is permanently stuck as this melee brawler archetype.
Since we cannot test Update 50's Werewolf in Cyrodiil on the PTS, we aren't seeing the full picture. You're expected to be in melee range in a duel, so Werewolf is going to shine in that environment. Once we see Update 50's Werewolf in Cyrodiil, you'll find how easy it is to counter them.
Werewolves's healing via Bloodclaws scales per target struck, doesn't it? So Werewolves survival should be even better against more than one target. There aren't many skills who scale their healing in such a way.
Dracane
1
Re: Night market is not a trial
Wouldn't mind difficulty levels for those that want it. You're right though, it's not a hard mode trial, it's much easier. I'm bummed so many people are unhappy because night market is crazy fun. I wish people could just put aside the anger and find some folks and give it a proper go. To your last point though, yes. Season 1 is entirely about solo questing and exploration. That's it. Players looking for a challenge because there's zero dungeons this year, this is what they got instead. I wonder if there would be all this uproar if the solo season had come first. I imagine not.
Re: U50 Feedback Thread for Combat Refresh: Werewolf
huskandhunger wrote: »huskandhunger wrote: »React, I provided the actual values and cadences provided by the toolkit itself. You wouldn’t know because all you seem to be capable of is dropping some random parse on glob-knows-who doing who-knows-what for resistances and what-kinda-cheese and then saying ‘but I’m right’ and ‘you’re all wrong’.
Why don't you be his opponent then?
or you perhaps? you are clearly enamored, you chase React around the forums like a lover
He was the opponent in one of the parses/screenshots. And in many before as well.
say no more, love is loveI am happy for you all
Your behavior, and the implications thereof, are disquieting and out of place.
Dracane
1
Re: Baron Thirsk still useless
Four years later and this monster set is still trash despite it being potentially decent with a few simple changes. It was bad when it came out and hasn’t changed since, which is disappointing considering the animations are cool and the damage ramping is a solid concept.
All it would need to be somewhat usable in PvE at least would be half the cooldown and swapping minor timidity for a damaging status effect.
All it would need to be somewhat usable in PvE at least would be half the cooldown and swapping minor timidity for a damaging status effect.
Urvoth
1
Re: Night market is not a trial
Again with this grouping thing. Again with disregarding other peoples' experiences because plenty of people have posted across multiple threads that even with larger groups, they all kept wiping. You're acting like your experiences are the only ones. If you can find capable groups, great! But a LOT of other can't despite trying to do the thing you keep acting like is the answer.CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »You're stating that its inaccessible for solo or casual players but it really isn't. I have done the entirety of my Night Market runs so far with a PUG group via the group finder. There were absolutely casuals and solo players in those groups. Thats a feature accessible to everyone. You don't have to interact with anyone. You may wipe a couple times, but you will get through it with a group from the group finder. No one will call you out for being low level or dying. I even had a cousin that hasn't played ESO since Summerset hop into a PUG with me and complete it; he had no idea what he was doing and was still able to complete it all with a PUG group.
Just because you need a group to complete it doesnt mean it's inaccessible for casual players. That's why the group finder exists. You can joijoinn one or list a group of your own with your own title.
ZOS was very upfront about needing to group up for this event. It is balanced like a Normal Trial, which means it is balanced for anyone to be able to complete it with a 12 person group - and you can.
And again with the "ZOS said grouping would be needed" thing too, which is patently untrue. They NEVER said you would need to group, they said grouping would be encouraged but the marketing VERY clearly stated it was meant for groups AND experienced players. I really do wish people would stop being disingenuous about this fact in order to argue that the difficulty is "fine because it's meant for groups only" thing. As for a statement I don't recall posting one, but I can very easily grab a link to the reveal livestream for people to hear it themselves.
2026 Reveal Livestream
Here's the link to the livestream, the part about who the content is for is around 34 or 35 minutes in. They say it's specifically for experienced players AND groups, and that grouping would be encouraged by the difficulty, NOT that it would be needed. They even say it's meant to be accessible for everyone but judging by all the feedback it clearly isn't actually hitting that mark. Not when experienced players are having this hard a time and not when numerous groups are even struggling.
Difficult and inaccessible do not mean the same thing. Yes, it is accessible for casual players. That doesnt mean you won't wipe, that doesn't mean it won't be challenging at times.
And if a group really does get stuck completely, it takes about a minute to disband and find a new group via the GF.
Yes, they said it would be difficult to solo. It is. It's extremely difficult. They never once said anyone would be able to solo it, but you can solo it. They very much stated that it was designed for group play in every stream, article, and announcement.
Re: Please re-balance Serpent's Disdain next
dark_hunterxmg wrote: »
Shh, as long as it comes from a class they like and not a set- it’s chill.
Never forget they have an ‘invincibility ult’ that gives them 100,000 pen. Like a defensive and offensive mechanical acuity that can also be stacked with mechanical acuity if you wanted xD. In the world of burst that is PvP- that is actually insane to think about.
Wuuffyy
3