TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »xylena_lazarow wrote: »That's just stacking heals to stall out a fight without killing anyone, like the ball groups on Live, and what the large raid guilds on Vengeance are doing. Their raw numbers flip flags, as opposed to a ball group circling the roof for 40 minutes.acastanza_ESO wrote: »If you could stack heals in a group you could at least try to coordinate fight back against a zerg.
What any large scale PvP needs is for solos/casuals/zergs to be able to put out enough damage to win outnumbered, without the need for the outside-game logistics and hard structure demanded by running in comp groups. This could potentially be accomplished by say, removing offensive AoE caps and restoring the lingering ground AoE on Meatbags.
Your point is lacking any real logical sense. You do this on every thread where you complain about the same things over and over and nothing is ever done to nerf it but you don't really ever take it as a sign. You want people to be able to kill COORDINATED GROUPS, while the lesser groups that aren't a ball group are NOT COORDINATED and also HAVE LESS PEOPOLE. Skills and sets like this already exist to benefit players when they are out numbered. There is no way to make smaller groups able to consistently kill bigger more coordinated groups without breaking the game entirely.
I mean just think of it, it doesn't make sense. Smaller groups can already beat better groups that are stacking heals if the player number isn't extremely significant. If the player number is extremely significant ex. 4v12, and the skill level of the players is similar, it would make zero sense for the 4 to consistently be able to beat the 12. When I go out with my group and I engage groups much bigger than ours, where the players are also skilled, we are aware we are not supposed to win every single engage, that's just what happens.
If you nerf heals or cross heals to a certain number, all you are doing is making that cap the next "ballgroup" number. Groups used to go up to 24 and were much worse, both on the server and for the health of the game's balance. A 12 man group isn't even that bad. Groups of 24 pugs should be able to deal with it unless they are just not great at the game, and guess what, if they aren't great they shouldn't win.
There isn't a logical proposal ever brought up when you engage on this topic, and you do it daily, for hours on end.
In addition, only bad ballgroups just heal stack and don't do anything. My group consistently fights and kills the biggest and best ballgroups in the game. Ballgroups always fight each other and one usually ends up winning. Stalling and perma fighting only happens with zergs who sit there and res each other over and over, which creates more lag than any ballgroup ever will, and no ballgroup ever complains about that lack of balance because guess what, it's just what happens where there are too many people. People aren't asking for ressing to be nerfed so it can't continue the way it does , but that is way healthier for the game than anything else proposed.
Nothing is ever done because devs don’t play PvP against ballgroups and ballgroups lobby against any nerfs successfully and make all other playstiles quit until they are only ones left(also in forum).
Noone is asking for smaller group to beat a larger more coordinated group consistently but there should be a way to do it at all.
If you trade blows with a larger group you loose even if they don’t have crosshealing but if you catch and burst them offguard or oil them they shouldn’t get saved by shared effects when otherwise they would have died.
IRL beeing in a larger group doesn’t protect you from lethal dmg but having larger number is still a usually decisive advantage in fights.xylena_lazarow wrote: »Solos/pugs need to be able to break these situations or the game dies, as Live has proved.acastanza_ESO wrote: »This is exactly the situation that a ballgroup would be able to break on live.
No, an uncoordinated group should not be able to consistently beat or even seriously disrupt a coordinated larger force. That makes absolutely zero logical sense.
A small coordinated group, however, especially when fighting within a zerg, absolutely can disrupt and even kill 12-man ball groups if they build and coordinate properly. But explain to me how it makes any sense for a random pug running their solo YouTube build to deal lethal damage on their own to a group that has spent far more time and effort min-maxing comps, perfecting roles, and drilling execution specifically to have a competitive advantage.
That’s like saying a thousand untrained peasants should be able to consistently beat a hundred trained marines just because of sheer numbers. Use your brain — preparation, coordination, and skill are supposed to matter.
I already said I don’t ask to consistently beat a larger group but just for a way to kill them.
That a smaller ballgroup can beat a larger ballgroup with help of a zerg is no option or help for non-members of ballgroups.
The marines should have the skills to avoid getting mortally wounded but not survive getting shot in the chest many times without bulletproof vest than kill the peasant by a glancing shot scratching his finger.
You took that parallel way too literally. The point wasn’t to run a military sim, it was dumbed down so even people like you could understand: coordination and skill matter, and they carry far more weight than anything a single pug can put out.
And let’s not pretend solos contribute nothing — you do contribute against a ball group, you just don’t feel it because it’s minimal. Why? Because you didn’t put in the same time, effort, and coordination that the ball group invests into min-maxing comps and perfecting execution. That’s the difference.
You took from that parallel only what fits your agenda and ignore the part contradicting it expecting me to do the same.
Finding that contradiction is taking it too literal for you, others are only allowed to use the part that supports your agenda.
Am I too dumb to understand your arguments (if not dumbed down) or not dumb enaugh to believe them.
While coordination and skill should and do matter ballgroups get even more of their strength from groupbuilds enabling godmode.
Contribution too minimal too feel it is nearly nothing and makes fighting ballgroups or PvP at all when they are everywhere senseless.
Soloplayers also invest time into min-maxing their builds and perfecting their execution and coordination but can’t coordinate with players that are non existent or always changing.
Alright, let’s dumb this down to your level and go back to the example. A thousand peasants would never defeat a hundred trained US Marines in any realistic modern warfare scenario. Surprised I even have to spell that out for you, but here we are.
Yes, the peasants (you) can “optimize” their setup all they want, but they still wouldn’t be able to take on the Marines (the 12-man ball group), even if they outnumber them 5 to 1, unless the Marines make a huge mistake. And that’s exactly how it should be.
You keep crying as a solo player in an MMO about groups existing, but if you actually believe you can min-max your builds so well, then grab a few friends and build a proper 4–5 man comp. Zerg down a ball group and see how far you get.
No, don't dumb the analogy down because it's now ridiculous. There is no way in Oblvion the average ball group player is a trained marine skill level whereas the average solo is a press ganged peasant ( to say nothing that being in a ball group gives players a literal millennium of technological advancements).
Most of us accept that skill and coordination should give comped groups real advantages. What we object to are broken mechanics that allow Cyrodiil to play like a ball group are modern marines and everyone else a peasant.
Nothing more needs to be said past:
solo players get 5 piece sets worth 450wd on cooldowns
Group players get 5 piece sets worth 5k+wd with no cooldowns. "skill"
I’d honestly pay money to see half of you build your own comp, ball up, and try it. On PCNA right now there are maybe 10–15 ball groups running in the past month. Out of those, at most 3 are actually strong enough to fight outnumbered (1–5, ball group vs faction stack), the same way a good 1vXer can 1v5 around a resource.
The rest? They fold instantly any time they aren’t glued to their faction’s zerg, so they default to stacking with it. That’s no different from a solo player who gives up on outnumbered fights and just joins the zerg because it’s the only way they can survive.
So explain to me why pugs who already crutch on zerging in the frontlines who actively avoid putting themselves in situations that would actually improve their combat fundamentals should magically be expected to beat the handful of groups that can do the same as an actually skilled solo player.
.SeaGtGruff wrote: »Is it because PS/XBox patch maintenance isn't until 2 more days? PC/Mac patch maintenance was this morning. /shrugtomofhyrule wrote: »Any Campaign changes need a maintenance, so ZOS is swapping them with the patch maintenance you have on wednesday to prevent having two maintenances in one week.
But midyear mayhem end doesnt need a maintenance either ? Just the inplement of the campaign
ToddIngram wrote: »The 4th iteration of Vengeance in December will be available alongside Grey Host. Could it just stay on please? With more build possibilities, one week is simply too short to test them all. In order to avoid disappointments, it should be clearly indicated in the title, description, and all over the place that this is a test campaign, and as such, it is going to be updated on a regular basis with additional features until tests are concluded and a final version is achieved.
@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Kevin
How about a permanent version of vengeance for PvE? Sounds good to me.
Why don't we just ask ZOS to shut down the game entirely? Make some effort and come up with better solutions for PvP than railing against PvE players.
MincMincMinc wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »xylena_lazarow wrote: »That's just stacking heals to stall out a fight without killing anyone, like the ball groups on Live, and what the large raid guilds on Vengeance are doing. Their raw numbers flip flags, as opposed to a ball group circling the roof for 40 minutes.acastanza_ESO wrote: »If you could stack heals in a group you could at least try to coordinate fight back against a zerg.
What any large scale PvP needs is for solos/casuals/zergs to be able to put out enough damage to win outnumbered, without the need for the outside-game logistics and hard structure demanded by running in comp groups. This could potentially be accomplished by say, removing offensive AoE caps and restoring the lingering ground AoE on Meatbags.
Your point is lacking any real logical sense. You do this on every thread where you complain about the same things over and over and nothing is ever done to nerf it but you don't really ever take it as a sign. You want people to be able to kill COORDINATED GROUPS, while the lesser groups that aren't a ball group are NOT COORDINATED and also HAVE LESS PEOPOLE. Skills and sets like this already exist to benefit players when they are out numbered. There is no way to make smaller groups able to consistently kill bigger more coordinated groups without breaking the game entirely.
I mean just think of it, it doesn't make sense. Smaller groups can already beat better groups that are stacking heals if the player number isn't extremely significant. If the player number is extremely significant ex. 4v12, and the skill level of the players is similar, it would make zero sense for the 4 to consistently be able to beat the 12. When I go out with my group and I engage groups much bigger than ours, where the players are also skilled, we are aware we are not supposed to win every single engage, that's just what happens.
If you nerf heals or cross heals to a certain number, all you are doing is making that cap the next "ballgroup" number. Groups used to go up to 24 and were much worse, both on the server and for the health of the game's balance. A 12 man group isn't even that bad. Groups of 24 pugs should be able to deal with it unless they are just not great at the game, and guess what, if they aren't great they shouldn't win.
There isn't a logical proposal ever brought up when you engage on this topic, and you do it daily, for hours on end.
In addition, only bad ballgroups just heal stack and don't do anything. My group consistently fights and kills the biggest and best ballgroups in the game. Ballgroups always fight each other and one usually ends up winning. Stalling and perma fighting only happens with zergs who sit there and res each other over and over, which creates more lag than any ballgroup ever will, and no ballgroup ever complains about that lack of balance because guess what, it's just what happens where there are too many people. People aren't asking for ressing to be nerfed so it can't continue the way it does , but that is way healthier for the game than anything else proposed.
Nothing is ever done because devs don’t play PvP against ballgroups and ballgroups lobby against any nerfs successfully and make all other playstiles quit until they are only ones left(also in forum).
Noone is asking for smaller group to beat a larger more coordinated group consistently but there should be a way to do it at all.
If you trade blows with a larger group you loose even if they don’t have crosshealing but if you catch and burst them offguard or oil them they shouldn’t get saved by shared effects when otherwise they would have died.
IRL beeing in a larger group doesn’t protect you from lethal dmg but having larger number is still a usually decisive advantage in fights.xylena_lazarow wrote: »Solos/pugs need to be able to break these situations or the game dies, as Live has proved.acastanza_ESO wrote: »This is exactly the situation that a ballgroup would be able to break on live.
No, an uncoordinated group should not be able to consistently beat or even seriously disrupt a coordinated larger force. That makes absolutely zero logical sense.
A small coordinated group, however, especially when fighting within a zerg, absolutely can disrupt and even kill 12-man ball groups if they build and coordinate properly. But explain to me how it makes any sense for a random pug running their solo YouTube build to deal lethal damage on their own to a group that has spent far more time and effort min-maxing comps, perfecting roles, and drilling execution specifically to have a competitive advantage.
That’s like saying a thousand untrained peasants should be able to consistently beat a hundred trained marines just because of sheer numbers. Use your brain — preparation, coordination, and skill are supposed to matter.
I already said I don’t ask to consistently beat a larger group but just for a way to kill them.
That a smaller ballgroup can beat a larger ballgroup with help of a zerg is no option or help for non-members of ballgroups.
The marines should have the skills to avoid getting mortally wounded but not survive getting shot in the chest many times without bulletproof vest than kill the peasant by a glancing shot scratching his finger.
You took that parallel way too literally. The point wasn’t to run a military sim, it was dumbed down so even people like you could understand: coordination and skill matter, and they carry far more weight than anything a single pug can put out.
And let’s not pretend solos contribute nothing — you do contribute against a ball group, you just don’t feel it because it’s minimal. Why? Because you didn’t put in the same time, effort, and coordination that the ball group invests into min-maxing comps and perfecting execution. That’s the difference.
You took from that parallel only what fits your agenda and ignore the part contradicting it expecting me to do the same.
Finding that contradiction is taking it too literal for you, others are only allowed to use the part that supports your agenda.
Am I too dumb to understand your arguments (if not dumbed down) or not dumb enaugh to believe them.
While coordination and skill should and do matter ballgroups get even more of their strength from groupbuilds enabling godmode.
Contribution too minimal too feel it is nearly nothing and makes fighting ballgroups or PvP at all when they are everywhere senseless.
Soloplayers also invest time into min-maxing their builds and perfecting their execution and coordination but can’t coordinate with players that are non existent or always changing.
Alright, let’s dumb this down to your level and go back to the example. A thousand peasants would never defeat a hundred trained US Marines in any realistic modern warfare scenario. Surprised I even have to spell that out for you, but here we are.
Yes, the peasants (you) can “optimize” their setup all they want, but they still wouldn’t be able to take on the Marines (the 12-man ball group), even if they outnumber them 5 to 1, unless the Marines make a huge mistake. And that’s exactly how it should be.
You keep crying as a solo player in an MMO about groups existing, but if you actually believe you can min-max your builds so well, then grab a few friends and build a proper 4–5 man comp. Zerg down a ball group and see how far you get.
No, don't dumb the analogy down because it's now ridiculous. There is no way in Oblvion the average ball group player is a trained marine skill level whereas the average solo is a press ganged peasant ( to say nothing that being in a ball group gives players a literal millennium of technological advancements).
Most of us accept that skill and coordination should give comped groups real advantages. What we object to are broken mechanics that allow Cyrodiil to play like a ball group are modern marines and everyone else a peasant.
Nothing more needs to be said past:
solo players get 5 piece sets worth 450wd on cooldowns
Group players get 5 piece sets worth 5k+wd with no cooldowns. "skill"