alternatelder wrote: »

So pve people like it because otherwise they are killed by...skilled people in a normal mode. But pvp people don't like it because it's dumbed down and now everyone is on even playing field? Is that how I see this argument? So where was that skill coming from? Dare I say...sets and overtuned skills were carrying people?

No. This was the same argument used in anticipation of the no proc campaign. Yet on no proc, people kept getting bodied by the same players they accused of getting carried by these 'overtuned sets'.

The point is that Vengeance barely allows for any skill expression. Who wins an encounter is almost entirely decided by which side has more numbers. In case of a 1v1, who wins is largely decided by the respective classes in that scenario. The modicum of skill involved in Vengeance pvp is small and becomes negligible in the largescale battles that constitute 99.9% of Vengeance combat.

The answer to overtuned sets is addressing said overtuned sets. Not the removal of skill from the game to such an extent that it just becomes a numbers game.

One change I think would be beneficial is for every ESO account to automatically have forum access (unless specifically banned). The additional hoops to jump through reduce participation.

Perhaps more controversially, I would love to see a limit on the number of times a single poster can post to a single thread. Maybe twice, maybe five times, whatever. But some limit. This would help prevent posters from trying to just outshout each other. If you have something truly new to say you didn't say in your first posts on that thread, it should be new enough to start a new topic.

In general, I like PvP because it's not predictable like say a trial boss fight. You can have ideas of what your opponent might or should do, but there is much more excitement when you genuinely don't know what's coming next. Also, it just feels like the outcome matters more when you win or lose to another player. Not in a take it personal way, just it's satisfying to fight a good opponent and win against an actual person.

In ESO, I like that the PvP areas are different, offer different options for playstyle and tactics. Also that it's open for solo or groups. I also like the PvP community, as I often lurk solo and find strangers rez me and invite me into groups.

I think some complaints come from players who are already pretty jaded with the game and aren't willing to engage with Vengeance to help improve PvP. I'm more of the view that you should test and give feedback in order to make PvP better. I also feel some are determined that Vengeance is going to be the new ruleset and imagine that the current restrictions are going to be kept. Personally I've tried all the Vengeance versions so far and I appreciate the effort the devs are making to improve performance. I'm fully supportive of having a fully new PvP system in Cyrodiil if that means we can have huge battles without lag. I'm willing to test and give the devs a chance at fixing stuff.

I think a lot of conflating gatekeeping and forming an optimised group for the hardest content is going on in here.

I don't think OP was talking about not being able to join a Gryphon Heart achievement run on an oakensoul heavy attack build. You don't get Swashbuckler Supreme just by pressing your left mouse button down. And I don't think anyone here is even suggesting anything like that. Those things need optimisation and practice. A lot of practice.

The issue OP was raising is off meta builds in other content, such as the vet pledge he was doing. Going for whataboutism about late trial HMs is not relevant to the discussion. Need for optimisation in trial HM is not the same as demanding meta in a dungeon finder PUG run.

SolarRune wrote: »

Kappachi wrote: »

As a master historian who seeks the treasure of every dungeon, I too wish this was confirmation with like 45s timer rather than auto port, especially if I have to deal with a mob pack to get to my treasure chest to open because the rude speedrunner left everything behind. Often as the healer/tank if I see a speedrunner I just leave the dungeon and queue a different piece of content, I play to enjoy the game not to speed to the end. This confirmation would at least give me time to tie up some loose ends and might make me stay longer.

And to add to it, the boss should be immune to damage until all party members are in the arena

edited because of fat finger spelling issues

I'm curious, what will happen in a situation when 2 people want to do an optional boss and 2 do not? Stand at their respective bosses until someone blinks?

45s would be too long. 10 (my suggestion) is already pretty long. Really, the timer for when you’re kicked out from not having a group should be increased to a few minutes (exception for when it’s a vote kick, which should kick the person out faster if anything). Then you can get the chests afterward.

Less, please.

Every PvE encounter is scripted and identical every time. Where's the fun in that?

With PvP every encounter is different and a true test of skill, timing and build quality. PvP is a challenge. PvE is not.

Gabriel_H wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Ok, and how do you propose to fix this? To force all groups to bring everyone regardless of their build? How do you propose to enforce this?

I'm simply pointing out the problem. The "fix" would be to alter mindsets, but that's never going to happen en-masse; and certainly not enforcing anything - enforcement being the problem.

Ok, we all know toxicity is a problem. Better balance is a way to address it, making everyone see more players with off-meta builds able to do the content.

Gabriel_H wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Yes, there are a lot of players who play off-meta setups reasonably well. The fact still remains that the average and maximum potential of an off-meta build are still significantly lower than the average and maximum potential of an Arcbladeplar. And that’s just numbers.

And still not accounting for the player's ability to reach that maximum.

Note the word "average" there.

Obviously, we can have a poor player with a beam build, and then they'll get toxicity thrown at them when it's obvious that they can't measure up.

But if we're assuming that the average person who knows enough to run the meta beam build probably has the wherewithal to get number X, and the average player who runs a different build is doing so because they have a "I don't care about how much damage I do" mentality, which is most likely to get the numbers the group wants? The group's not going to take time to hold auditions when their goal is a speedrun or two for gear.

Even before Subclassing, people who were running a non-meta Class didn't just get into groups; it was usually a case of "hey, I know this person is on a NB main, but I run with them in another group and they do things with the NB I haven't seen before"

Gabriel_H wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

To be honest, a lot of these “gatekeepy” players have been burned by people with off-meta builds before - I’ve seen plenty of people who proudly proclaim that “it’s okay that they have low DPS as long as they know mechanics!” while proceeding to botch every mechanic. Not to mention that there are a number of people who are convinced that their solo-everything build is perfect because they need their self heals and armor, conveniently forgetting that the point of group content is to have healers and tanks taking care of that for you so you can focus on damage.

How would you feel if someone came up to you and said “Hi, I’ve never met you but I don’t trust that you can do your job to heal me so I’m slotting self heals to keep myslef alive. Also I’m offended that people don’t trust me to do my job and are implying my damage is low.”

Not for nothing but there is a lot of group content where DDs should be speccing a self-heal. A dead DD does 0 dps.

And a DPS who slots self heals does less damage than a DPS who doesn't because they sacrificed damage for healing.

In organized groups, DPS stick to pure damage - that's why the meta is 3x pure DPS lines. Why? Well, they have healers specifically for that. Yes, there are times when a DPS needs to run off and do something else like portals so they need a heal, but normally you focus on your job and let the healers do theirs.

Most groups think it's really rude to show up without trusting the healers. That's literally their job to stop you from dying. Unless, of course, you stand out of position and take a lot of damage, at which point it is your fault. A lot of high-level players are burned since the "well I have a self-heal" mindset does mean that they can be a little cheekier and not as cognizant of positioning.

(and note that the meta build does have a spammable which is also a self-heal, which means they can afford to take risks that other builds can't)

Gabriel_H wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Numbers also say that for the highest echelons of content (hard mode trials after Kyne’s), there honestly isn’t much wiggle room either - they’re balanced around groups which are able to put out obscene amounts of damage. And there, that “7 seconds of difference” is also the difference between a group wipe from Taleria’s mages being up too long and a clear.

The game has DPS checks, but those checks are not set at 100% of possible damage. There are also places where too much damage can lead to a wipe. That same content requires tanks and healers to be on point with their positioning - that's a player skill, not the power of their build.

Again, the faster damage is done, the less everyone needs to deal with mechanics. That's why people talk about "soft" and "hard" DPS checks - a soft check is not going to wipe the group, but it leads to a mechanic or too many adds that make the fight much harder to deal with. And yes, there are a lot of strategies that are "hey, we need to burn this before mechanic X happens"

As for the other point, this is where "mechanics" comes into the equation. If the mechanic is "too much damage leads to problems," the answer will be to come off the boss at a specific point and focus adds.
(I'll also point out that the highest groups have damage high enough that they don't need to pull off the boss either - there is no fight where too much damage is a wipe, it just means you get a lot of adds all at once. A phenomenal tank can bring them all in to get burned without taking damage off)

Gabriel_H wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

You’re never going to get rid of toxicity. Ever. But if there wasn’t such a huge gap between the top build and the next one, then people would be more used to seeing other ways than what the 0.0001% of players do. If the balance were better, people would be less gatekeepy.

I'm not denying the balance couldn't be better, I'm saying it's not strictly needed. Again, the game is not balanced around the 100% damage potential having 100% efficiency.

The poor balance has driven off all of the players who would allow different builds in. The poor balance is making it so a singular meta is king. If the balance doesn't improve, this entire problem will continue to get worse as more and more reasonable people who dislike the meta leave in frustration.

The highest level of content is definitely balanced around the skills used by most of the highest level raiders - this means they are looking for the massive directional cleave that only Fatecarver can bring. The reason people bring up vKA so much is that there's a lot of blocking mechanics in that trial, which means you can't be channelling a skill for it... and yet Fatecarver builds can still use Pragmatic's shield to power through it.

A trial which is specifically denying Fatecarver would be interesting, like if there were something where you needed to stack two bosses to make them damageable, but if boss B dies it leads to a group wipe. That would be a fun "anti-meta" mechanic.

----

Look, I hate the meta, and Subclassing has really pushed me out of the game. But I'm a realist, so when I go to my prog I bite the bullet and I slot stupid other lines that make my carefully built character (who I spent years with and wrote a whole backstory on why he has those powers) drop a lot of the stuff that I like so I can throw on lorebreaking nonsense that is 0% fun to play. Most of the dislike in the "How do you like Subclassing" thread comes from the high-level players who detest being forced into one single meta.

At least dungeons I can stay pureclass, and the people I run with don't care since I can still get trifectas playing the way I want with friends who know what I'm capable of. But that's the other thing - I don't PUG. Ever. Even in this event, I would rather solo FGI for my tickets than go into a PUG because I don't want to deal with toxicity from others.

The obscene balance issue has empowered thinks-they're-better-than-they-are players to think that there is only one way to do things. Until another meta rises (or at least an equivalently strong build, or better yet a smackdown of the OP build to be like the rest), these people will only think one way is possible and the others are all RP builds.

Complaining that people are toxic will fix nothing, and keeping everything as is will only drive more reasonable people away. Improving balance will prove that more ways to play are viable, and then more people clearing on the builds they want to play with will lead to them opening up more groups which allow people to bring off-meta builds.