Best Of
Re: PTS Update 48 - Feedback Thread for Classes & Abilities
MincMincMinc wrote: »Grim focus and morphs still scale drastically higher than most ultimates other than takeflight. This delayed burst skill should be at least equivalent to deep fissure or blastbones or curse. Even with the incap damage boost, I am fairly certain incap still doesn't hit harder than merciless. An ultimate......that takes 10x as long to build up and use.
- Merciless = 2.1476 dmg/wd
- Relentless = 1.9524
- Dawnbreaker = 1.627
- ice comet = 2.0880
- incap = 1.7354
- takeflight = 2.2764
- haunting curse = 1.3558
- Blastbones = 1.627
- deep fissure = 1.627
Not to mention how obscenely strong the rest of the toolkit is with the skill giving prophecy while also giving access to the slotted passives and crit. That is an entirely other discussion to be had.
Some of your comparisons are very misleading here.
I mean we can write out a novel comparing all of these at once if you want, discussions of that nature on the forums tend to just bounce around because there are hundreds of "what about this" gotcha points.
In pvp what matters most right now in this crit burst turtle meta is singular instant ticks. We are very very far from a sustained damage meta, so the curse multiple hits and even the deep fissure multiple hits is not even a factor.
Re: Tone-deaf AUA on Reddit
I've been convinced for many years that ZOS isn't especially interested in achieving true balance—because the moment they get there (and it wouldn't be difficult to do if they genuinely wanted to, it would just take some planning and a concerted effort, not even as much as One Tamriel, even), they essentially run out of things to adjust, leaving only new content and quality-of-life improvements to work on, which, frankly, are what most players seem to want anyway—along with an innumerable list of bugs that people have been talking about for years (and don't even get me started on my time collecting lorebooks) and keep getting compounded every year—but they take longer to develop than simply tweaking a few numbers. And fiddling with the numbers is a constant and time consuming thing, which makes them look really busy.
The combat team adjusting Wall of Elements for Update 59:
(joking)
With ZOS, it's always been a game of whack-a-mole:- "This thing seems to be over-performing, let's nerf it and buff this other thing." This isn't adding "more choice," it's shifting where the numbers are and what you want players to use, it's precise, it's tactical, it's deliberate, and it's certainly not balance. You have the stats for what is and isn't used, or what gets used more frequently, you nerf and buff based on those presumably because you don't want players getting into a rut and only using a few select things; you spend time making other things—be they armour, abilities, or classes—and you want people to use those. I understand that. Find out why these things are used and balance the other things to be in line so that people can have actual choice. Ultimately, this is how it usually end up:
Balancing by spreadsheet isn't inherently a bad thing—and it's not the same as homogenisation—in fact, I'd argue it's probably the only viable path to actual balance, and that assumes the community even cares about balance (I personally don't). But if the entire system starts showing cracks from the outset, during your design phase, as it did during the standardisation push in 2018~2019, where various things were left, quite frankly, half-arsed or outright not included at all in the later hybridisation push, then perhaps that should've been a signal to postpone the effort of implementing it fully on the Live servers—or, better yet, not pursue it at all until the design goals and systems were stable enough to support it and all avenues were addressed (e.g. potions and food). Of course, that ship has sailed... and here we are, but I'd hope there's a lesson to be learned... though I'm not naïve enough to think my voice or post has any weight.
On the subject of set bloat: I've said since returning to the game in mid-2016 that the vast majority of item sets were more or less redundant, and, at worst, useless. When I stepped away from the game at the beginning of 2023 after many years of end game raiding, there were somewhere around 450-ish sets in the game. I said then—and still believe—that you could simply remove 50% of them outright, and most players wouldn't even notice. A few might briefly wonder where their set went, they'll complain, only to quickly replace it with something else—and probably with something better than what they were using.
Someone recently brought up Amber Plasm vs. Wretched Vitality, and another person responded by saying Amber Plasm still has value if you approach content in order. There are two things wrong with that. One, Wretched Vitality is a crafted set and available to anyone as soon as they exit the tutorial area. Second, and more specifically, I'd push back on that by pointing out that most new players (and I know at least a few people who started in 2020) probably have no idea what the "correct" order is anymore. At least while I was still playing, and I don't imagine it's changed, new characters were dropped straight into the latest expansion content rather than starting on the original starter islands, so most players starting with (and since) the Morrowind chapter are already starting with the "incorrect" order, it's a nonsensical argument with no basis in reality, and ZOS's own design philosophy is that the game can be played in any order (which was the entire point of One Tamriel making the entire game freely accessible and not level-gated). So the idea that players are meant to work through base game zones as if it were still 2014, then associated dungeons and trials (making sure to do Craglorn last), then DLC, and finally expansions in precise order... simply doesn’t reflect how the game is structured, or how it’s presented to new or veteran players; it is purely personal preference and nothing to do with actual balance or progression.
TL;DR
If you don't have a clear vision where you want things to be/go more than ten years and 47 major updates (not including all the incremental updates along the way like the ninja-nerfs to Mundus stones over the years) after launch, it's unlikely you ever will. So one of two things is likely true here, either:
- Signing out and going back under my rock
The combat team adjusting Wall of Elements for Update 59:
(joking)
With ZOS, it's always been a game of whack-a-mole:- "This thing seems to be over-performing, let's nerf it and buff this other thing." This isn't adding "more choice," it's shifting where the numbers are and what you want players to use, it's precise, it's tactical, it's deliberate, and it's certainly not balance. You have the stats for what is and isn't used, or what gets used more frequently, you nerf and buff based on those presumably because you don't want players getting into a rut and only using a few select things; you spend time making other things—be they armour, abilities, or classes—and you want people to use those. I understand that. Find out why these things are used and balance the other things to be in line so that people can have actual choice. Ultimately, this is how it usually end up:
- For casual players, "it" is a huge nerf (think about all the casual/semi-casual players coming to the forums to complain about their loss of damage with the heavy attack build nerfs a few years ago) and now they feel they need to use this other buffed thing, and every 3-6 months they have to "re-learn the game."
- For end game raiders, "it" is just "the new meta." They adapt accordingly and move on with their lives.
Balancing by spreadsheet isn't inherently a bad thing—and it's not the same as homogenisation—in fact, I'd argue it's probably the only viable path to actual balance, and that assumes the community even cares about balance (I personally don't). But if the entire system starts showing cracks from the outset, during your design phase, as it did during the standardisation push in 2018~2019, where various things were left, quite frankly, half-arsed or outright not included at all in the later hybridisation push, then perhaps that should've been a signal to postpone the effort of implementing it fully on the Live servers—or, better yet, not pursue it at all until the design goals and systems were stable enough to support it and all avenues were addressed (e.g. potions and food). Of course, that ship has sailed... and here we are, but I'd hope there's a lesson to be learned... though I'm not naïve enough to think my voice or post has any weight.
On the subject of set bloat: I've said since returning to the game in mid-2016 that the vast majority of item sets were more or less redundant, and, at worst, useless. When I stepped away from the game at the beginning of 2023 after many years of end game raiding, there were somewhere around 450-ish sets in the game. I said then—and still believe—that you could simply remove 50% of them outright, and most players wouldn't even notice. A few might briefly wonder where their set went, they'll complain, only to quickly replace it with something else—and probably with something better than what they were using.
Someone recently brought up Amber Plasm vs. Wretched Vitality, and another person responded by saying Amber Plasm still has value if you approach content in order. There are two things wrong with that. One, Wretched Vitality is a crafted set and available to anyone as soon as they exit the tutorial area. Second, and more specifically, I'd push back on that by pointing out that most new players (and I know at least a few people who started in 2020) probably have no idea what the "correct" order is anymore. At least while I was still playing, and I don't imagine it's changed, new characters were dropped straight into the latest expansion content rather than starting on the original starter islands, so most players starting with (and since) the Morrowind chapter are already starting with the "incorrect" order, it's a nonsensical argument with no basis in reality, and ZOS's own design philosophy is that the game can be played in any order (which was the entire point of One Tamriel making the entire game freely accessible and not level-gated). So the idea that players are meant to work through base game zones as if it were still 2014, then associated dungeons and trials (making sure to do Craglorn last), then DLC, and finally expansions in precise order... simply doesn’t reflect how the game is structured, or how it’s presented to new or veteran players; it is purely personal preference and nothing to do with actual balance or progression.
TL;DR
If you don't have a clear vision where you want things to be/go more than ten years and 47 major updates (not including all the incremental updates along the way like the ninja-nerfs to Mundus stones over the years) after launch, it's unlikely you ever will. So one of two things is likely true here, either:
- ZOS has a very clear vision and their vision is constant change and not real, lasting balance, or
- Everyone at ZOS is clueless and lacks any vision or cohesive direction
- Signing out and going back under my rock
Troodon80
13
Re: Rich Lambert's Comments About The Current State of Balance
I agree with Lambert that Subclassing has enabled more choices, with some more powerful than others. What baffles me though is that they don't seem to want to enable any real choices regarding armor set balance.
You got alllllll these cool sets like Morkuldin, Unfathomable Darkness, Winterborn, etc. which expand what your character can do, but are ultimately under-powered for any serious content. Morkuldin requires you to know all 9 traits to craft it too by the way, you'd think it would be worth being able to craft.
Nowadays it isn't even worth running a full monster set for their second effect either since you generally end up losing power that way. Mythics are nice, but monster masks used to be a cool thing.
We also need new 3-piece sets, the original Imperial City sets have no place in the game right now.
You got alllllll these cool sets like Morkuldin, Unfathomable Darkness, Winterborn, etc. which expand what your character can do, but are ultimately under-powered for any serious content. Morkuldin requires you to know all 9 traits to craft it too by the way, you'd think it would be worth being able to craft.
Nowadays it isn't even worth running a full monster set for their second effect either since you generally end up losing power that way. Mythics are nice, but monster masks used to be a cool thing.
We also need new 3-piece sets, the original Imperial City sets have no place in the game right now.
Re: Rich Lambert's Comments About The Current State of Balance
He's right.What does everyone think?
So do you think that balancing is not important because a "meta" doesn't need to be followed?
I think it's a true statement that meta doesn't need to be followed. In practice that means you will do lower damage than you could be doing in trials, you might not make it on to teams, and you'll be outmatched in PvP constantly. This argument doesn't address the fact that in certain environments, performance measured against other players matters. Most people don't want to be unnecessarily gimped. They are essentially punishing being creative when creative builds underperform so much compared to what's meta.
you can try to balance as much as you want, there will allways be a meta.
People even choose a race where they get just a small benefit over another race, therefore if the second best build would be 1% less effectiv they would still just use the meta build
But the point they are making is that the gap has never quite this large. I've never played a meta DPS build and the difference was usually between 10% and 20% - which is quite large but at least workable. The difference now is well over 100% in some cases. That's not swapping a race and a skill to eek out an extra percent. That's equivalent adding a whole extra character to the team doing a full rotation.
There are other areas of balance than just damage output too. There was a time when you wanted a tank and healer for pretty much anything you did outside of some quests. Nowadays they are redundant at best and detrimental at worse in a lot of the content. And not even particularly fun to play. What's the point of taunting a boss that can't hurt anyone and will be dead in less than five seconds anyway? What's the point of using your skill and experience to gather enemies and control their movement for the sake of the group when someone can do all of that with the press of a single button that will also kill all of those enemies?
On top of that there are sets and skill in this game that no person capable of reading would ever consider using. That's not balance. That's negligence.
Sluggy
14
Re: Rich Lambert's Comments About The Current State of Balance
As much of a convenience arcanist and herald of tome is with it's "easy mode" with clearing content, I find it to be incredibly dull and uninspiring to play. The undaunted event makes it much more prominent as I find zero reasons to play anything else as a DD. Every other option is just vastly inferior and makes content take longer and becomes more inconvenient than it has to be.
Support roles (tank/healer) are somewhat better since it offers more options depending on content you do (trials/dungeons). ZOS doesn't need to "buff everything else" but actually bring down herald of tome as a skilline. A single skilline should not have both the best AoE (fatecarver) and single target skill (runeblades) for PvE.
Support roles (tank/healer) are somewhat better since it offers more options depending on content you do (trials/dungeons). ZOS doesn't need to "buff everything else" but actually bring down herald of tome as a skilline. A single skilline should not have both the best AoE (fatecarver) and single target skill (runeblades) for PvE.
Re: Overland Content Feedback Thread
Let us talk about the question I posed. Where is the level of difficulty supposed to be?
This question demonstrates some confusion about things that I have said in particular. So, let me clarify.
I want difficulty to come in the form of a slider that secretly debuffs the user. This way I don't have to be separated from others to enjoy the difficulty because the change is to me and not the overland itself.
Adding debuffs to the player rather than change the enemies is something that has already been successfully done in other multiplayer games. It means that if a Vet Player and a New player were attacking the same world boss at the exact same time, only the vet player would experience the increased difficulty. I would take more damage from the same attack because I take say 20% more damage from all sources as an example.
Because my damage would also be lower, I also would not be able to bulldoze that newer player because I'd be at a similar level of power as them so we'd be both get a fun, challenging fight. I'd no longer be trivializing the encounter when helping them. Depending on the strength of the debuffs, the brand new player might actually hit it harder than me!
I would use the debuffs when I wanted to play the stories so that I could enjoy the increased immersion of actually questing in an environment where the enemies are threatening. Because that's the goal of all the harder difficulty for me. I want to enjoy immersive storytelling experiences.
But the story is NOT the only sole reason that I go to the overland. I go there as well to farm leads and rare items, to do my crafting surveys, and to do my daily quests.
I don't want grindy, repetitive experiences to also be time consuming and difficult. I already have to kill world bosses dozens of times just to get 1 structure plan from a daily quest. Crafting surveys are already extremely tedious. There are rare items that barely drop in the overland too. I have been trying to get the ayleid furnishing plans to drop for me on and off for years.
Crafting surveys, daily quests, leads, and furnishing plans are chore tasks designed to be repetitive. They are designed that way so players have a reason to be on the maps even when they are not doing the stories. They are tasks that are mostly unrelated to the story of the game. They are designed that way to ensure the world still feels lively and populated when some new character has been made long after the zone was released and most of us have finished the story. In fact, some of the drops are not even activated until weeks after the zone first drops. So, you couldn't finish those early even if you wanted to.
Why would I want chore tasks to be even more time consuming then they're already designed to be? Again, I have farmed for the ayleid plans off and on for years and still don't have them all. It is extremely rare. Why would I want to make something that is already time consuming, frustrating, and tedious even worse?
Not wanting unrelated chore tasks to be even more time consuming does not in anyway undermine my desire to be able to enjoy the stories of this game. Rada al-Saran has nothing to do with crafting surveys. I should be able to enjoy his story and have him actually be a real threat AND finish my survey quickly. Because the two are not related.
BTW for the subset of players who find Rada al-Saran to be a challenging fight? That is already the experience many of them enjoy.
I want to be able to enjoy the story of this game without being worse off doing chores or worse off financially (in-game or apparently real life since some you seem to think I should be charged real money for that experience). You may not find that reasonable. But, that would be your opinion and not mine.
Re: Overland Content Feedback Thread
Zone chat:
"Can someone help with [wb]"
"X. What level u on?"
"Normal, I think?"
"K"
(3 dps group waiting for a tank to q all flip their overland toggle to norm and help a guy out.)
(Boss ded)
"Thanks!"
"np:)"
"Can someone help with [wb]"
"X. What level u on?"
"Normal, I think?"
"K"
(3 dps group waiting for a tank to q all flip their overland toggle to norm and help a guy out.)
(Boss ded)
"Thanks!"
"np:)"
Re: Overland Content Feedback Thread
SilverBride wrote: »How will any player know which difficulty option any other player has chosen unless they ask them? I doubt it will be obvious just by looking at them.
Whisper?
Or /say even. Zone chat? Why would that need to be locked?
Re: Rich Lambert's Comments About The Current State of Balance
Meta absolutely matters in any competitive content, and pretending that it doesn't is spitting in the face of your veterans. His statements might apply to casual content such as overland, normal dungeons and trials, and vet dungeons. But in terms of vet trials, HM vet content and PVP, they're just objectively wrong.
The very systems he references as providing this "freedom of choice" are the exact ones which have widened the gap between meta and off meta setups. Pre hybridization I was able to play off-meta magicka and stamina builds that more often than not could compete with high-skill full meta players, because the gap wasn't nearly as wide. Nowadays if you play some off meta setup and you come up against an average/above average player running a best in slot meta setup, it is highly unlikely you will be able to overcome the power difference regardless of the skill gap.
This sucks for veterans and casuals alike. Veterans are bored and fed up of playing/fighting the exact same builds all the time (in pvp and pve!), and casuals hate the "unkillable one shot builds" that are smashing them with 2-3x their stat density.
Him saying this after the complete lack of care for balancing over the past few years since hybridization and subclassing is very telling. It speaks volumes to why the ship has been steered so far in the wrong direction.
The very systems he references as providing this "freedom of choice" are the exact ones which have widened the gap between meta and off meta setups. Pre hybridization I was able to play off-meta magicka and stamina builds that more often than not could compete with high-skill full meta players, because the gap wasn't nearly as wide. Nowadays if you play some off meta setup and you come up against an average/above average player running a best in slot meta setup, it is highly unlikely you will be able to overcome the power difference regardless of the skill gap.
This sucks for veterans and casuals alike. Veterans are bored and fed up of playing/fighting the exact same builds all the time (in pvp and pve!), and casuals hate the "unkillable one shot builds" that are smashing them with 2-3x their stat density.
Him saying this after the complete lack of care for balancing over the past few years since hybridization and subclassing is very telling. It speaks volumes to why the ship has been steered so far in the wrong direction.
React
35
Re: Having an inventory issue... transmutes! (undaunted event)
Agreed, ESO is an MMO, a genre that is known for being played for years and/or decades. Which means the in-game systems need to take that into consideration. In this instance with transmute crystals, but also with CP's, storage(bank/inven), housing, etc. In ESO the systems are all there, but not to complement being used by longterm players. Which is quite an oversight given the genre ESO is in, and which types of players the game attracts.I personally agree that transmute crystals should be treated like any other non-CS currency and be uncapped regardless of ESO+ status.
I'm sure they originally capped it for a reason (and probably monetising the inconvenience did factor in the design), but as time passes and the game evolves systems - like Jewellery crafting was for instance - need to be reassessed.
Sarannah
1