Idea to fix OP sorcs: Damage shield does not protect against physical attacks

DDemon · February 2016

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

And here I am reading all the sorcerers post screaming "L2P".

Sorcerers don't fight it ZOS even admitted damage shields are OP and are looking for ways to make them balanced be the major system or adding a cast times to them. Face it your 1vX days are near a end accepted like most DKs did when they started to get nerfed shortly after PC launch.

If or when the sorcerer class becomes unplayable or extremely under-powered due to some nerfs, the players that are currently 1vXing will simply switch class, or find something else that gives them an edge. Then, after a few weeks you will be back here screaming 'Nerf x class because of x'. As they continue to 1vX you and your group. It's not a class that makes a good player good.

Waffennacht · February 2016

DDemon wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

And here I am reading all the sorcerers post screaming "L2P".

Sorcerers don't fight it ZOS even admitted damage shields are OP and are looking for ways to make them balanced be the major system or adding a cast times to them. Face it your 1vX days are near a end accepted like most DKs did when they started to get nerfed shortly after PC launch.

If or when the sorcerer class becomes unplayable or extremely under-powered due to some nerfs, the players that are currently 1vXing will simply switch class, or find something else that gives them an edge. Then, after a few weeks you will be back here screaming 'Nerf x class because of x'. As they continue to 1vX you and your group. It's not a class that makes a good player good.

This

It'll be NB of elder scrolls (cuz yes Id make an insanely OP nb)

tennant94 · February 2016

Op I'm guessing you play a stamina build xd

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO · February 2016

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

And here I am reading all the sorcerers post screaming "L2P".

Sorcerers don't fight it ZOS even admitted damage shields are OP and are looking for ways to make them balanced be the major system or adding a cast times to them. Face it your 1vX days are near a end accepted like most DKs did when they started to get nerfed shortly after PC launch or even some NBs and their cloak and stealth nerf.

Shield stacking is OP, single shields are not. If any nerf to shields go through, it'll only make people stack shields even more as one shield just won't be enough then. This from a PvE player who couldn't care less about PvP.

Decado · February 2016

spoqster wrote: »

Decado wrote: »

I didn't read all the comment so I have no idea if these points have been mentioned but I shall list them anyway,

1) what you are suggesting is already in the game, it's a shield in the light armour tree

2) next patch there is actually a CP tree dedicated to killing shields

3) there is also a set to kill shields (yes I know it's niche and not used often)

4) such a change would effect PvE aswel

5) the real problem isn't hardened ward, the real problem is healing ward, hardened ward together, healing ward is an awesome heal that can save you from certain death, add that into a instant 9k damage shield you start to become very hard to kill

2) and 3) are not good solutions to the problem as you'll be gimping your character overall to be stronger against specific enemies.

4) Case in point: It happened last week on one of my gold runs that the tank and healer died mid-fight on the last boss and the two sorcs finished the fight by themselves. Are you suggesting that's the way it should be?

Never said it was a good solution I said it was a counter, end of the day it's only a 9k damage shield, that's 1 wrecking blow and gone, and k actually have a friend who one shots sorcs with shields up,

I'm actually harder to kill on my dragon knight

Like I said it's a combination of things rather than just one little shield, but sure lets blame the shields

And as for 4, if your sorcs are running hardened on every PvE content they don't have much confidence in the tanks or healers,

I never run hardened ward in group PvE, unless a specific boss required it (being ranged on manticora)

Like I said your solution makes this harness magicka

spoqster · February 2016

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

@spoqster Killing 10 people is a different story than kiting and escaping 10 people. Sorc you described was the only decent player in that engagement.

TG update will put the survivability of sorcs back quite a few notches.

If we go buy your thought process, my night blade escaping 2 full zergs after killing 1 guy on siege is a god.

Seriously though, why should a Nightblade be able to escape two zergs. A DK or a Templar can't do that.

Again, I'm not whining here. It's just my perception that sorcs and nbs have a lot more mobility and escapability than templars and dks.

spoqster · February 2016

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

@spoqster Killing 10 people is a different story than kiting and escaping 10 people. Sorc you described was the only decent player in that engagement.

TG update will put the survivability of sorcs back quite a few notches.

If we go buy your thought process, my night blade escaping 2 full zergs after killing 1 guy on siege is a god.

I never said the sorc kills all of them. I said the sorc can handle their damage and can either get away or kill a few, or just handle the damage for a while. You can't handle 10 peeps beating down on you even as a fully specced tank.

DannyLV702 · February 2016

LOL

spoqster · February 2016

DDemon wrote: »

You can only cast a shield once every second due to skill cool downs... Max hardened ward shield I have seen a sorc cast was just under 14k (In pvp). If 10 players are unable to CC and burn through that shield into the sorcs health before he or she can recast their shield, it's not the game mechanics fault. When I dps on my sorc, not using overload, I can easily pull over 20k dps single target, in pvp the damage is cut in half, so this would result in 10k single target dps. You are telling me that 10 players can't pull more than 14k dps?

Yes, you can shield stack, but if you look at harness magica, it's useless against physical attacks, so a stamina used would only need to go through one shield to get through the health. Your suggested change to make hardened ward only work against magic based attacks would render sorcs defenseless against any stamina player.

I have a v16 character of all 4 classes, 2 of these are stamina based characters, and I have no problem fighting against sorcerers one bit. Yes, I lose against them from time to time, but that's because they the better player at that point. When I play on my sorcerer, and am fighting a player that is better than me, I will lose, does not matter what class that person is playing. I will give you this, sorcerers shield stacking with harness magica are harder to kill with a magica based user. However, stamina users have a way easier time going up against a sorc, than any other magica based build.

You're right of course. But in the scenarios I witnessed the sorc was always a better player than the group and it was never all 10 on one sorc at the same time. In the sewers there are usually mobs around, sometimes the group is not coordinated, and many players in the PvP do more like 5k dps and not 10k or 20k.

But that's part of the problem. I've seen players pull over 40k in PvE. It doesn't make sense to me that this game allows this vast damage difference of 5k to 10k between a decent player and over 40k for a top player. It's similar in PvP.

Games like Counter Strike demonstrate, that the skill difference in players is so vast already, that a single player can sometimes take on up to x targets by himself. And that is in a world where all characters are equally powerful. It's fine that an MMORPG allows for some character development, but allowing for these extreme number based power gaps just magnifies the skill gap to game breaking levels.

smacx250 · February 2016

I'm a shield using mag sorc - take a look at what kills me. I don't see that physical damage is overly disadvantaged.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/246916/cumulative-death-recap-damage-breakdown

spoqster · February 2016

CP5 wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

And here I am reading all the sorcerers post screaming "L2P".

Sorcerers don't fight it ZOS even admitted damage shields are OP and are looking for ways to make them balanced be the major system or adding a cast times to them. Face it your 1vX days are near a end accepted like most DKs did when they started to get nerfed shortly after PC launch.

Do shields need to be addressed? Yes, is turning ward into another annulment and make shields in general worthless to stamina builds the answer? No. And the only people who are 1vXing are either kiting and only ever fighting 1v1 or 1v2, or the enemies are potatoes. Seriously, no matter what ZOS does people will always complain about that evil sorc that dared to bolt away and ZOS will always find something to nerf on them.

Do you have any idea how frustrating it can be if another player taunts you by throwing a few spells your way, and you just can't kill him because he teleports away? Even if you ignore him, he comes back to do it again and again until you finally give in and then he finds some way to kill you. I don't usually fall for it, but has happened to me and it's pretty annoying.

Think about it. PvP is like sports. Now think about someone showing that kind of behavior (and being allowed to) on a basketball court. He'd try that two times and the third time some would probably punch him in the nuts. Game over.

That's the whole reason for my suggestion in the first place. If they have streak let them be weak to swords. Either they get away or they get slaughtered. Or keep the shields, but don't let them teleport away. Giving them tanking and mobility just seems odd.

Anyway, it was just an idea.

SinKissed · February 2016

I've seen way too many of these threads lately. If you're complaining about it just get shield breaker and problem solved.

spoqster · February 2016

DDemon wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

And here I am reading all the sorcerers post screaming "L2P".

Sorcerers don't fight it ZOS even admitted damage shields are OP and are looking for ways to make them balanced be the major system or adding a cast times to them. Face it your 1vX days are near a end accepted like most DKs did when they started to get nerfed shortly after PC launch.

If or when the sorcerer class becomes unplayable or extremely under-powered due to some nerfs, the players that are currently 1vXing will simply switch class, or find something else that gives them an edge. Then, after a few weeks you will be back here screaming 'Nerf x class because of x'. As they continue to 1vX you and your group. It's not a class that makes a good player good.

Of course you're right. Superior players will always exist. And that's great. The underlying question is: How good should good players allowed to be?

In Counter Strike, no one will ever complain about a great player, because all characters are equal.

In Hearthstone, the best players have a 67% win rate instead of a 65% win rate, and the best players can still lose to good players.

In ESO, the best players just slaughter the good players.

Is that really good for the health of the game? Is that really what the developers intend for this game?

Birdovic · February 2016

This Suggestion Is among the funniest so far, lol.

Ever Heard of the Light Armor Skill Line Shield?
Does exactly what you ask for and Is Even cheaper.

Changing hardened ward as you suggest Is making PvE absolutely impossible aswell.

Also this doesnt make sense at all. I mean stam builds got it Even easier than Magicka users, who have to go through hardened ward AND harness magicka...
Why? Really why do so many People dislike thinking

Refuse2GrowUp · February 2016

spoqster wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

And here I am reading all the sorcerers post screaming "L2P".

Sorcerers don't fight it ZOS even admitted damage shields are OP and are looking for ways to make them balanced be the major system or adding a cast times to them. Face it your 1vX days are near a end accepted like most DKs did when they started to get nerfed shortly after PC launch.

Do shields need to be addressed? Yes, is turning ward into another annulment and make shields in general worthless to stamina builds the answer? No. And the only people who are 1vXing are either kiting and only ever fighting 1v1 or 1v2, or the enemies are potatoes. Seriously, no matter what ZOS does people will always complain about that evil sorc that dared to bolt away and ZOS will always find something to nerf on them.

Do you have any idea how frustrating it can be if another player taunts you by throwing a few spells your way, and you just can't kill him because he teleports away? Even if you ignore him, he comes back to do it again and again until you finally give in and then he finds some way to kill you. I don't usually fall for it, but has happened to me and it's pretty annoying.

Think about it. PvP is like sports. Now think about someone showing that kind of behavior (and being allowed to) on a basketball court. He'd try that two times and the third time some would probably punch him in the nuts. Game over.

That's the whole reason for my suggestion in the first place. If they have streak let them be weak to swords. Either they get away or they get slaughtered. Or keep the shields, but don't let them teleport away. Giving them tanking and mobility just seems odd.

Anyway, it was just an idea.

Yes yes, and NBs wont be allowed to cloak; DKs can't use flappy wings or Corrosive Armor; Templars cannot use any heals...they should all just stand there and die. Problem solved eh?

spoqster wrote: »

Of course you're right. Superior players will always exist. And that's great. The underlying question is: How good should good players allowed to be?

In Counter Strike, no one will ever complain about a great player, because all characters are equal.

In Hearthstone, the best players have a 67% win rate instead of a 65% win rate, and the best players can still lose to good players.

In ESO, the best players just slaughter the good players.

Is that really good for the health of the game? Is that really what the developers intend for this game?

I have to admit...I am really impressed. I have seen my fair share of nerf threads, but this is the first one that wants to nerf/cap a players skill.

I wonder, do you complain if people make more money in real life because they work harder...definitely shouldn't be allowed to work harder? What if they study harder and got a (better) degree...definitely shouldn't be allowed to earn any academic accolades that you cannot? What if another dude gets a sexier girlfriend because he is more charismatic, can dance, can make her laugh, etc...how dare he have a better personality? It all "just seems odd".

IzanagiTensei-O · February 2016

social anxiety/self worth issues, so...never commented before, but, this-

Well it is my opinion, that 1 v Xing even against baddies shouldn't be possible. And seriously I might not be the best pvp player out there, but I wouldn't consider myself a baddie. If I crit rush someone three times and hit him with a Wrecking Blow, I expect his health to be at least at 50%, no questions asked.[/quote]

Fn priceless. Very insightful.
Never mind blocking, armor, resistance, cps, shields, racial bonuses, health pool..3 crit rushes and a wb = -50% health, end-of-story.
Me and my big mouth. What do i know? Aside from that that comment gave me a perma grin. Thanks.

spoqster · February 2016

Refuse2GrowUp wrote: »

spoqster wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

And here I am reading all the sorcerers post screaming "L2P".

Sorcerers don't fight it ZOS even admitted damage shields are OP and are looking for ways to make them balanced be the major system or adding a cast times to them. Face it your 1vX days are near a end accepted like most DKs did when they started to get nerfed shortly after PC launch.

Do shields need to be addressed? Yes, is turning ward into another annulment and make shields in general worthless to stamina builds the answer? No. And the only people who are 1vXing are either kiting and only ever fighting 1v1 or 1v2, or the enemies are potatoes. Seriously, no matter what ZOS does people will always complain about that evil sorc that dared to bolt away and ZOS will always find something to nerf on them.

Do you have any idea how frustrating it can be if another player taunts you by throwing a few spells your way, and you just can't kill him because he teleports away? Even if you ignore him, he comes back to do it again and again until you finally give in and then he finds some way to kill you. I don't usually fall for it, but has happened to me and it's pretty annoying.

Think about it. PvP is like sports. Now think about someone showing that kind of behavior (and being allowed to) on a basketball court. He'd try that two times and the third time some would probably punch him in the nuts. Game over.

That's the whole reason for my suggestion in the first place. If they have streak let them be weak to swords. Either they get away or they get slaughtered. Or keep the shields, but don't let them teleport away. Giving them tanking and mobility just seems odd.

Anyway, it was just an idea.

Yes yes, and NBs wont be allowed to cloak; DKs can't use flappy wings or Corrosive Armor; Templars cannot use any heals...they should all just stand there and die. Problem solved eh?

spoqster wrote: »

Of course you're right. Superior players will always exist. And that's great. The underlying question is: How good should good players allowed to be?

In Counter Strike, no one will ever complain about a great player, because all characters are equal.

In Hearthstone, the best players have a 67% win rate instead of a 65% win rate, and the best players can still lose to good players.

In ESO, the best players just slaughter the good players.

Is that really good for the health of the game? Is that really what the developers intend for this game?

I have to admit...I am really impressed. I have seen my fair share of nerf threads, but this is the first one that wants to nerf/cap a players skill.

I wonder, do you complain if people make more money in real life because they work harder...definitely shouldn't be allowed to work harder? What if they study harder and got a (better) degree...definitely shouldn't be allowed to earn any academic accolades that you cannot? What if another dude gets a sexier girlfriend because he is more charismatic, can dance, can make her laugh, etc...how dare he have a better personality? It all "just seems odd".

Did you read and understand my comments or are you just trolling?

spoqster · February 2016

IzanagiTensei-O wrote: »

social anxiety/self worth issues, so...never commented before, but, this-

Well it is my opinion, that 1 v Xing even against baddies shouldn't be possible. And seriously I might not be the best pvp player out there, but I wouldn't consider myself a baddie. If I crit rush someone three times and hit him with a Wrecking Blow, I expect his health to be at least at 50%, no questions asked.

Fn priceless. Very insightful.
Never mind blocking, armor, resistance, cps, shields, racial bonuses, health pool..3 crit rushes and a wb = -50% health, end-of-story.
Me and my big mouth. What do i know? Aside from that that comment gave me a perma grin. Thanks.[/quote]

I'm not sure how to interpret your comment, but that's just my intuition.

Don't you think that 4 hits with a sword would have a serious impact on a person's health? :-)

spoqster · February 2016

andypappb16_ESO wrote: »

This Suggestion Is among the funniest so far, lol.

Ever Heard of the Light Armor Skill Line Shield?
Does exactly what you ask for and Is Even cheaper.

Changing hardened ward as you suggest Is making PvE absolutely impossible aswell.

Also this doesnt make sense at all. I mean stam builds got it Even easier than Magicka users, who have to go through hardened ward AND harness magicka...
Why? Really why do so many People dislike thinking

Oh come on, magicka users can all stack shields.

It's an interesting idea to consider mag users weak to stam users and vice versa. That might lead to interesting mechanics.

FriedEggSandwich · February 2016

spoqster wrote: »

DHale wrote: »

spoqster wrote: »

thelordoffelines wrote: »

No change is necessary one person cant stand up to ten as it is now.

Wrong. It happens often. It requires good tactical play by the sorc, patience and pulling out individual players if possible. And yes, it's not always possible for the sorc to stand up against 10 players. But it is possible and it happens often.

You are talking about baddies. There really is no one v X against good players. One v X ing against baddies is sometimes comically easy.

Well it is my opinion, that 1 v Xing even against baddies shouldn't be possible. And seriously I might not be the best pvp player out there, but I wouldn't consider myself a baddie. If I crit rush someone three times and hit him with a Wrecking Blow, I expect his health to be at least at 50%, no questions asked.

Those sorcs you see solo 10 enemy players; if you could pause the fight and play it back in slowmo you would see that only about 3 of them are even trying to damage the sorc, the rest will be stood around button mashing aoe skills in panic, or spamming heals even though the sorc isn't damaging anyone. It actually only takes the (single target) burst of one good player to break a sorcs shields and maybe one more to cc at the right time to stop the sorc recasting. It's all about timing. If a good sorc comes across 10 tyros who only just learned to cc break yesterday then why should the sorc lose if most of the 10 just stand around and create particle effects?

Edit: all classes can 1vX baddies in this way, not just sorcs, I can link you some vids if you don't believe me.

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO · February 2016

spoqster wrote: »

Hi all, just wanted to throw out another idea to fix the ubiquitous sorc problem in PvP.

(For those who don't know: Due to their damage shields and mobility sorcs can take and avoid a lot of damage while being able to dish out quite hard. As a result it happens often that even groups of 10 decent players can't kill a good sorc.)

Idea: Change the functionality of damage shields so that they don't shield against physical attacks, but only against magicka based attacks. That solution would not change the balance of the magicka builds, but would make sorcs weaker to stamina based builds.

Please, no hate! I haven't thought this all the way through yet, I just wanted to throw it out and get some thoughts on the matter.

ps. I am not whining or trying to make stam builds OP. The problem is real, and I'm just looking for ways to create a more balanced pvp gameplay, in which a single person can't stand up against 10 others by himself.

EDIT: I can only say this again. This is not a QQ post that I wrote because I got beat up 10 minutes ago. I've seen this happen in PvP again and again and again over the stretch of many months, at least ever since the CS was released.

No, that would be just plain stupid, I am a Nightblade lover, and my main will always be a Nightblade and I don't even think that a Sorc's shield should be Nerfed or changed like that.. that is sooo crazy..

PS- I never call for NERF'S..

Espresso · February 2016

You can't crit sorc shields, so Julianos is worthless against them. The dev team is made up of sorc players

LadyNalcarya · February 2016

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

And here I am reading all the sorcerers post screaming "L2P".

Sorcerers don't fight it ZOS even admitted damage shields are OP and are looking for ways to make them balanced be the major system or adding a cast times to them. Face it your 1vX days are near a end accepted like most DKs did when they started to get nerfed shortly after PC launch or even some NBs and their cloak and stealth nerf.

Nb here.
Even though sorcs need a bit of rebalance (mainly in pve) but I'm still against deliberate nerfs.

Artjuh90 · February 2016

it would actually make more sense if hardend ward was just against physical damage. given the fact there is already multiple magic shields (annulment and absorb magic from s&S)

Vaoh · February 2016

@KoshkaMurka You're a NB and ask for a PvE Magicka Sorc nerf? Wow...

I'm not sure if you are magicka or stamina based, but PvE Magicka Nightblades right now are unbelievably powerful if played correctly. More so than the other three classes atm. Just sayin'

LadyNalcarya · February 2016

@Doncellius wrote: »

@KoshkaMurka You're a NB and ask for a PvE Magicka Sorc nerf? Wow...

I'm not sure if you are magicka or stamina based, but PvE Magicka Nightblades right now are unbelievably powerful if played correctly. More so than the other three classes atm. Just sayin'

L2Read pls. Im against the nerfs.
And in terms of balance sorcs do need more sustainable dps. In the new trial, for example, you wont have enough overload to pew pew everything. Dk, on the other hand, can pull high dps forever, if ele drain is provided.

khele23eb17_ESO · February 2016

Bad idea. This would lead to stamina dps nerfs and create an even bigger imbalance than we already have.

Vaoh · February 2016

@KhoshkaMurka This whole thread is about nerfing sorc shields. You responded to a comment from an extremely anti-sorc MUST nerf shields player agreeing they need a "rebalance" in PvE.

Sooo..... I guess I'm sorry I didn't get the obvious hint you actually were talking about increasing their sustainable DPS?

RoamingRiverElk · February 2016

spoqster wrote: »

Hi all, just wanted to throw out another idea to fix the ubiquitous sorc problem in PvP.

(For those who don't know: Due to their damage shields and mobility sorcs can take and avoid a lot of damage while being able to dish out quite hard. As a result it happens often that even groups of 10 decent players can't kill a good sorc.)

Idea: Change the functionality of damage shields so that they don't shield against physical attacks, but only against magicka based attacks. That solution would not change the balance of the magicka builds, but would make sorcs weaker to stamina based builds.

Please, no hate! I haven't thought this all the way through yet, I just wanted to throw it out and get some thoughts on the matter.

ps. I am not whining or trying to make stam builds OP. The problem is real, and I'm just looking for ways to create a more balanced pvp gameplay, in which a single person can't stand up against 10 others by himself.

EDIT: I can only say this again. This is not a QQ post that I wrote because I got beat up 10 minutes ago. I've seen this happen in PvP again and again and again over the stretch of many months, at least ever since the CS was released.

For example, a stam DK can already kill a magicka sorc, or they'll have a draw. No need to nerf hardened ward like that, it would be absolutely ridiculous to do so.

LadyNalcarya · February 2016

@Doncellius wrote: »

@KhoshkaMurka This whole thread is about nerfing sorc shields. You responded to a comment from an extremely anti-sorc MUST nerf shields player agreeing they need a "rebalance" in PvE.

Sooo..... I guess I'm sorry I didn't get the obvious hint you actually were talking about increasing their sustainable DPS?

I specifically said "I'm against deliberate nerfs", thats why I responded to that post to begin with. Is that not clear?
I mentioned that rebalance is needed because there are issues with sorcs, it would be stupid to argue that. Rebalance doesnt mean outright buffs to everything as well though, there's many problematic points, like balance with other classes and stamina/magicka issues. But nerfing any class is not the answer.