Idea to fix OP sorcs: Damage shield does not protect against physical attacks

spoqster

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

You don't want to fix shieldstacking, you want to destroy the sorc class (and magicka classes in general). Use shieldbreaker if you have so many problems against sorcs.

Shielbreaker is a crap solution to the problem. No one wants to wear a specific set only to deal with one specific problem.

lolo_01b16_ESO

spoqster wrote: »

DHale wrote: »

spoqster wrote: »

thelordoffelines wrote: »

No change is necessary one person cant stand up to ten as it is now.

Wrong. It happens often. It requires good tactical play by the sorc, patience and pulling out individual players if possible. And yes, it's not always possible for the sorc to stand up against 10 players. But it is possible and it happens often.

You are talking about baddies. There really is no one v X against good players. One v X ing against baddies is sometimes comically easy.

Well it is my opinion, that 1 v Xing even against baddies shouldn't be possible. And seriously I might not be the best pvp player out there, but I wouldn't consider myself a baddie. If I crit rush someone three times and hit him with a Wrecking Blow, I expect his health to be at least at 50%, no questions asked.

And this where I see we have totally different opinions. I think skill should always be superior to numbers in any game. It's much more fun to win because you were better and not because you had more numbers and it's much easier to accept that you lost when it was because the other player had more skill and not because your enemies just had more people spamming steeltornado against a single target.

spoqster

Decado wrote: »

I didn't read all the comment so I have no idea if these points have been mentioned but I shall list them anyway,

1) what you are suggesting is already in the game, it's a shield in the light armour tree

2) next patch there is actually a CP tree dedicated to killing shields

3) there is also a set to kill shields (yes I know it's niche and not used often)

4) such a change would effect PvE aswel

5) the real problem isn't hardened ward, the real problem is healing ward, hardened ward together, healing ward is an awesome heal that can save you from certain death, add that into a instant 9k damage shield you start to become very hard to kill

2) and 3) are not good solutions to the problem as you'll be gimping your character overall to be stronger against specific enemies.

4) Case in point: It happened last week on one of my gold runs that the tank and healer died mid-fight on the last boss and the two sorcs finished the fight by themselves. Are you suggesting that's the way it should be?

spoqster

Wollust wrote: »

If 10 people can't take down even the best sorc out there, they are just crap players. That's it.
And if you say you are against 1vX you just admit that you want to make the game rather number based instead of skill based, which also says you're just a crap player yourself.

That's why I specifically asked for "no hate".

Personally, I think it's fine if one player can take on and kill up to three others, but I do think it's bad for the game if players can take on more players by themselves.

Also, as mentioned above, it's not that the sorc will necessarily kill all the 10 players. It's that he can take a long beating by all of them before dying or that he can take the damage and then still get away with streak.

spoqster

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

spoqster wrote: »

DHale wrote: »

spoqster wrote: »

thelordoffelines wrote: »

No change is necessary one person cant stand up to ten as it is now.

Wrong. It happens often. It requires good tactical play by the sorc, patience and pulling out individual players if possible. And yes, it's not always possible for the sorc to stand up against 10 players. But it is possible and it happens often.

You are talking about baddies. There really is no one v X against good players. One v X ing against baddies is sometimes comically easy.

Well it is my opinion, that 1 v Xing even against baddies shouldn't be possible. And seriously I might not be the best pvp player out there, but I wouldn't consider myself a baddie. If I crit rush someone three times and hit him with a Wrecking Blow, I expect his health to be at least at 50%, no questions asked.

And this where I see we have totally different opinions. I think skill should always be superior to numbers in any game. It's much more fun to win because you were better and not because you had more numbers and it's much easier to accept that you lost when it was because the other player had more skill and not because your enemies just had more people spamming steeltornado against a single target.

I'm not sure if we're completely apart there. I am fully with you in that skill should be more important than numbers. If a Counter Strike player can take on 10 others by himself you'll know it's skill, because all characters are equal. In ESO this is not the case. For example, there is a big difference between 0 Champion Points and 500 Champion Points.

lolo_01b16_ESO

spoqster wrote: »

Decado wrote: »

I didn't read all the comment so I have no idea if these points have been mentioned but I shall list them anyway,

1) what you are suggesting is already in the game, it's a shield in the light armour tree

2) next patch there is actually a CP tree dedicated to killing shields

3) there is also a set to kill shields (yes I know it's niche and not used often)

4) such a change would effect PvE aswel

5) the real problem isn't hardened ward, the real problem is healing ward, hardened ward together, healing ward is an awesome heal that can save you from certain death, add that into a instant 9k damage shield you start to become very hard to kill

2) and 3) are not good solutions to the problem as you'll be gimping your character overall to be stronger against specific enemies.

4) Case in point: It happened last week on one of my gold runs that the tank and healer died mid-fight on the last boss and the two sorcs finished the fight by themselves. Are you suggesting that's the way it should be?

Well, I don't know which boss you're talking about, but most of them can be done with just 2 players, no matter what class they are, if they have some sort of defensive skill on their bar. So not an argument against shields.

Jhunn

spoqster wrote: »

DHale wrote: »

spoqster wrote: »

thelordoffelines wrote: »

No change is necessary one person cant stand up to ten as it is now.

Wrong. It happens often. It requires good tactical play by the sorc, patience and pulling out individual players if possible. And yes, it's not always possible for the sorc to stand up against 10 players. But it is possible and it happens often.

You are talking about baddies. There really is no one v X against good players. One v X ing against baddies is sometimes comically easy.

Well it is my opinion, that 1 v Xing even against baddies shouldn't be possible. And seriously I might not be the best pvp player out there, but I wouldn't consider myself a baddie. If I crit rush someone three times and hit him with a Wrecking Blow, I expect his health to be at least at 50%, no questions asked.

Everything you say after this has no value. Skill should always be superior to numbers, but sadly ZOS is moving your direction already. So stop the QQ and L2P - if I can kill a good sorc 1v1 and you're 10 people who can't kill him, you'll just have to go through the same process of learning the game mechanics better like everyone else did (and probably also the same shieldstacking sorcs you're talking about).

spoqster

Jhunn wrote: »

spoqster wrote: »

DHale wrote: »

spoqster wrote: »

thelordoffelines wrote: »

No change is necessary one person cant stand up to ten as it is now.

Wrong. It happens often. It requires good tactical play by the sorc, patience and pulling out individual players if possible. And yes, it's not always possible for the sorc to stand up against 10 players. But it is possible and it happens often.

You are talking about baddies. There really is no one v X against good players. One v X ing against baddies is sometimes comically easy.

Well it is my opinion, that 1 v Xing even against baddies shouldn't be possible. And seriously I might not be the best pvp player out there, but I wouldn't consider myself a baddie. If I crit rush someone three times and hit him with a Wrecking Blow, I expect his health to be at least at 50%, no questions asked.

Everything you say after this has no value. Skill should always be superior to numbers, but sadly ZOS is moving your direction already. So stop the QQ and L2P - if I can kill a good sorc 1v1 and you're 10 people who can't kill him, you'll just have to go through the same process of learning the game mechanics better like everyone else did (and probably also the same shieldstacking sorcs you're talking about).

I don't really get why you are attacking me. Do you really think it should be possible for one player to stack shields while 5 to 10 other players keep beating on that person and stay alive long enough to port away?

spoqster

[Edited to Remove Quoted Content]

I don't want to create an imbalance that favors stamina builds. I was merely exploring an idea and wanted to hear what other people think about it. If you think that the suggested change would create an imbalance, then that's valuable information to me.

Daedgaming

As a sorc myself, here is the problem with that. The moment you catch us without our wards up we pretty much just die. Those are the sorcs who spec themselves right meaning all magicka based for the most amount of damage possible. Now I have even now with the way the game is, taken on 5+ people and won but that is only because they were bad players. Any class in the game can take on a multitude of people at once as long as the player knows what he or she is doing. A good nightblade can take down a sorc easily. Just as a good sorc can take down a nightblade. It is how you use the weapons at your disposal. What does need to happen though is this.

1. Twin Blade and Blunt needs to be made so it only effects stamina based attacks and weapon attacks not overall damage. Force casters to use destro staffs for stats, taking away 5% damage from dual wielding for magicka based players not to mention if you are me and know what you are doing it also takes away around 350 spell power thanks to Torags pact 2 set bonus plus base spell power from dual wielding.
3. I would honestly take away the entire champion point system for everyone. For equilibrium's sake though I would make gear much better to balance out the lost stats, making this game truly gear based.

When a sorc wants to live, he will live I can tell you that first hand. All I have to do is stay on my utility bar and keep my shields and healing ward up. Yet I have no damage output when I do that and eventually I will run out of magicka. A good player would simply light attack into me then to save resources or heavy attack to save up and wait for me to switch bars. Yet the moment I am in the face of someone spamming wrecking blow or Focused Aim from far away... You would be surprised how fast a sorc can drop even with shields up. That is if I allow them to free cast those hehe. In the end the biggest enemy of sorcs is physical damage, seeing as good damage based sorcs use mostly light armor for the stats which means we have really low armor. No sorcs do not need a nerf on their shields at all.

CP5

spoqster wrote: »

Lenikus wrote: »

I call BS on OP's post.
You want to spam wrecking blow and be OP ? shut up and go back to your corner.
You earn no cookies today.

#Edit.
" 'Balanced Gameplay' is to make Magicka builds have no defense against stamina builds. " - OP

Stop insulting me.

I don't want to create an imbalance that favors stamina builds. I was merely exploring an idea and wanted to hear what other people think about it. If you think that the suggested change would create an imbalance, then that's valuable information to me.

Stamina builds already have the easiest time with sorc shields, there is already a shield that protects against only magicka attacks, and making hardened ward a duplicate of that would only make it so that stam builds would need to put in significantly less effort in killing sorcs. So yes, your idea comes across as "wanting to create an imbalance that favors stamina builds."

WillhelmBlack

Nop.

LadyNalcarya

Then remove surprise attack/wb from pvp and wb/archer mobs from vMA.

spoqster

Daedgaming wrote: »

When a sorc wants to live, he will live I can tell you that first hand. All I have to do is stay on my utility bar and keep my shields and healing ward up. Yet I have no damage output when I do that and eventually I will run out of magicka.

I hear you @Daedgaming and thank you very much for the non-troll response (as opposed to many others here).

What do you think about the following argument: If a stamina/heavy armor players tries to achieve the same survivability, he'll have to wear full heavy armor and put a lot of Champion points into blocking. Then he'll block (using OH) and trade stamina for survivability the same way the sorc trades magicka for survivability. Now the sorc has not damage output while casting shields, but he can switch to high damage output, while a tank like character can't simply switch to high damage, because he's missing the passives from the medium armor tree and the CS that he had to invest into his toughness.

Daedgaming

spoqster wrote: »

Daedgaming wrote: »

When a sorc wants to live, he will live I can tell you that first hand. All I have to do is stay on my utility bar and keep my shields and healing ward up. Yet I have no damage output when I do that and eventually I will run out of magicka.

I hear you @Daedgaming and thank you very much for the non-troll response (as opposed to many others here).

What do you think about the following argument: If a stamina/heavy armor players tries to achieve the same survivability, he'll have to wear full heavy armor and put a lot of Champion points into blocking. Then he'll block (using OH) and trade stamina for survivability the same way the sorc trades magicka for survivability. Now the sorc has not damage output while casting shields, but he can switch to high damage output, while a tank like character can't simply switch to high damage, because he's missing the passives from the medium armor tree and the CS that he had to invest into his toughness.

Well tanks in the first place are not really designed for doing tons of damage, are we talking pvp or pve here though?

spoqster

Daedgaming wrote: »

Well tanks in the first place are not really designed for doing tons of damage, are we talking pvp or pve here though?

We're still on PvP.

And doesn't the ability to take so much damage give the sorc the characterstic of a tank?

AshTal

Gah

The average sorc can't take on 10 people - often he can't take on 1 NB or one DK spamming wrecking blow its the uber sorcs who have insane shields can teleport and seem to have unlimited magic. Just as its the uber DK's who stand in the middle of 10 people attacking them spamming more damage with steel tornado than the 10 people attacking them can muster and kill all 10 enemies.

LBxFinalDeath

Only problem I see with Sorc shield stacking is the fact that they can shield stack in the face of their opponent.

Good luck if you're a magicka build trying to fight one of these Sorcs, its better to run away.

Only way I see them fixing shield stacking is by nerfing it, make it so it has a cast time in combat or something or the caster can be bashed out of it even if they have CC immunity.

Do the same for wrecking blow so the Sorcs won't cry too.

Or just make shields crittable and impen/resist to crits champ points tree only effect you when your shields are down.

Refuse2GrowUp

spoqster wrote: »

Hi all, just wanted to throw out another idea to fix the ubiquitous sorc problem in PvP.

(For those who don't know: Due to their damage shields and mobility sorcs can take and avoid a lot of damage while being able to dish out quite hard. As a result it happens often that even groups of 10 decent players can't kill a good sorc.)

Idea: Change the functionality of damage shields so that they don't shield against physical attacks, but only against magicka based attacks. That solution would not change the balance of the magicka builds, but would make sorcs weaker to stamina based builds.

Please, no hate! I haven't thought this all the way through yet, I just wanted to throw it out and get some thoughts on the matter.

ps. I am not whining or trying to make stam builds OP. The problem is real, and I'm just looking for ways to create a more balanced pvp gameplay, in which a single person can't stand up against 10 others by himself.

EDIT: I can only say this again. This is not a QQ post that I wrote because I got beat up 10 minutes ago. I've seen this happen in PvP again and again and again over the stretch of many months, at least ever since the CS was released.

LMAO. Do I sense a Stam NB??!!

I have seen every class stand up against that many other players. I have also seen every class get beat in 1v1. I think you give the class too much credit and not the players. Otherwise, you would not make such a ridiculous suggestion.

Molag_Crow

Meh, nah.. that's what Harness is for.

Molag_Crow

They should just not allow shield stackin and the problem would be solved.

Emma_Overload

spoqster wrote: »

Hi all, just wanted to throw out another idea to fix the ubiquitous sorc problem in PvP.

(For those who don't know: Due to their damage shields and mobility sorcs can take and avoid a lot of damage while being able to dish out quite hard. As a result it happens often that even groups of 10 decent players can't kill a good sorc.)

Idea: Change the functionality of damage shields so that they don't shield against physical attacks, but only against magicka based attacks. That solution would not change the balance of the magicka builds, but would make sorcs weaker to stamina based builds.

Please, no hate! I haven't thought this all the way through yet, I just wanted to throw it out and get some thoughts on the matter.

ps. I am not whining or trying to make stam builds OP. The problem is real, and I'm just looking for ways to create a more balanced pvp gameplay, in which a single person can't stand up against 10 others by himself.

EDIT: I can only say this again. This is not a QQ post that I wrote because I got beat up 10 minutes ago. I've seen this happen in PvP again and again and again over the stretch of many months, at least ever since the CS was released.

This is so wrong I don't know where to start:

1) We ALREADY have a pure magic shield, it's called Harness Magicka.

2) Sorcs are ALREADY weaker than stamina builds, that's why the IC sewer is full of Stamblades and WB-spamming DKs.

3) As a Magicka Sorc main, I can assure you it's not possible for a Sorc to stand up against 10 good players for more than 2 seconds, or even 2 good players for that matter. All those "1vX" videos you see on YouTube and Twitch simply show a pro farming a bunch of clueless noobies.

4) Sorcs die fast in PvP when they are gap-closed and CC'd, because for some reason you can't "break free" from these things in PvP. This is why people hate abilities like Ambush so much, because they can be used to permanently stun a Sorc so he can't refresh his Ward.

5) If anything, physical shields like Bone Wall (or whatever it's called) need to be BUFFED and given magicka morphs.

Cody

put damage shields into the major/minor system. Use one, you cannot use another with it.

Fasold666

No

Waffennacht

spoqster wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

If 10 v1 vs 1 v16 then its cus they too low.

Players are scaled up in PvP. A v1 should not be weaker than a v16.

Lmfao! Except CP or gear...

I have v 10 before and the only reason I killed them was because not a single one used Fear, or spambush or Wb.

The only reason anyone can even stay alive that long is if no NB spams ambush, or others don't spam a CC.

Two NBs can perma lock a sorc, no excuse for any number of players above two to not be able to kill a sorc.

(Unless you're a bugged out temp and a non flappy dk)

Brutusmax1mus

@spoqster Killing 10 people is a different story than kiting and escaping 10 people. Sorc you described was the only decent player in that engagement.

TG update will put the survivability of sorcs back quite a few notches.

If we go buy your thought process, my night blade escaping 2 full zergs after killing 1 guy on siege is a god.

DDemon

You can only cast a shield once every second due to skill cool downs... Max hardened ward shield I have seen a sorc cast was just under 14k (In pvp). If 10 players are unable to CC and burn through that shield into the sorcs health before he or she can recast their shield, it's not the game mechanics fault. When I dps on my sorc, not using overload, I can easily pull over 20k dps single target, in pvp the damage is cut in half, so this would result in 10k single target dps. You are telling me that 10 players can't pull more than 14k dps?

Yes, you can shield stack, but if you look at harness magica, it's useless against physical attacks, so a stamina used would only need to go through one shield to get through the health. Your suggested change to make hardened ward only work against magic based attacks would render sorcs defenseless against any stamina player.

I have a v16 character of all 4 classes, 2 of these are stamina based characters, and I have no problem fighting against sorcerers one bit. Yes, I lose against them from time to time, but that's because they the better player at that point. When I play on my sorcerer, and am fighting a player that is better than me, I will lose, does not matter what class that person is playing. I will give you this, sorcerers shield stacking with harness magica are harder to kill with a magica based user. However, stamina users have a way easier time going up against a sorc, than any other magica based build.

Forestd16b14_ESO

And here I am reading all the sorcerers post screaming "L2P".

Sorcerers don't fight it ZOS even admitted damage shields are OP and are looking for ways to make them balanced be the major system or adding a cast times to them. Face it your 1vX days are near a end accepted like most DKs did when they started to get nerfed shortly after PC launch or even some NBs and their cloak and stealth nerf.

Waffennacht

Everyone can 1vX because if you are 1vXing your playing horrid players.

At least cloak IS GETTING NERFED, take THAT! All you sorc haters!

CP5

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

And here I am reading all the sorcerers post screaming "L2P".

Sorcerers don't fight it ZOS even admitted damage shields are OP and are looking for ways to make them balanced be the major system or adding a cast times to them. Face it your 1vX days are near a end accepted like most DKs did when they started to get nerfed shortly after PC launch.

Do shields need to be addressed? Yes, is turning ward into another annulment and make shields in general worthless to stamina builds the answer? No. And the only people who are 1vXing are either kiting and only ever fighting 1v1 or 1v2, or the enemies are potatoes. Seriously, no matter what ZOS does people will always complain about that evil sorc that dared to bolt away and ZOS will always find something to nerf on them.