Tanking in 2.1 : it is possible, managable with explainations and proof.

Personofsecrets · August 2015

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

Aett_Thorn wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, has anybody been testing how the zero stamina regen effects lower-level Tanks? I've seen lots of tests from people in high-end content, but I'm wondering how this will possibly affect newer tanks when they are doing low-level dungeons. Before healers/templars have spear shards and lots of magika regen to keep spamming abilities, will this change still do okay?

Oh ***. Didnt think of this. That could be problematic @ZOS_RichLambert ?

I can imagine the low level dungeons being done without a tank. I'm not sure if the nerf would be that much of a problem so long as a player isn't blocking multiple enemies.

Kupoking · August 2015

mattlarsonmdl_ESO wrote: »

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

Was able to get capped in spellresist using the new head/shoulder of lord warden/armor buff/full heavy. But was at 23k physical resist for some reason.

This has to some sort of bug. I cant see it being a bug.

might have to re-check. 23k might unbuffed. Could get to 32k with the buff.

Kupoking · August 2015

Personofsecrets wrote: »

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

Aett_Thorn wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, has anybody been testing how the zero stamina regen effects lower-level Tanks? I've seen lots of tests from people in high-end content, but I'm wondering how this will possibly affect newer tanks when they are doing low-level dungeons. Before healers/templars have spear shards and lots of magika regen to keep spamming abilities, will this change still do okay?

Oh ***. Didnt think of this. That could be problematic @ZOS_RichLambert ?

I can imagine the low level dungeons being done without a tank. I'm not sure if the nerf would be that much of a problem so long as a player isn't blocking multiple enemies.

My only experience is low level dungeons was back at launch. It was pretty damn hard then.

Then again I was a noob lol

amasuriel · August 2015

I think the telling point to me, is how people who are defending the change are focused on whether its technically possible.

Was it more fun tanking with no stamina regen or less?

That is the most important question. If its hard but fun or easy and fun, then great. If its hard but boring, or easy but boring, then the change will add confusion and learning curve for no purpose.

Seems less fun to me, since the focus now (for non-trivial fights) is on stamina management, not battlefield control or adding DPS or Healing while maintaining enough mitigation to tank.

usmcjdking · August 2015

Have any developers attempted to do a VR1 dungeon with a VR1 toon with 0 champion points?

Or how about a VR5 toon with 20 Champion points?

How about melee damage characters that are now going to be nearly non-competitive with their ranged magicka counterparts?

Has this change really been developer playtested before implementation? I would propose not.

This change was so short-sighted that it still baffles me that this will be going live.

The simple fix to appease all and include a bit more fun in tanking would have been to remove the 360 bubble protection you get from current shield and instead apply vector blocking like EVERY OTHER GAME WITH SHIELD MECHANICS.

amasuriel · August 2015

Personofsecrets wrote: »

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

Aett_Thorn wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, has anybody been testing how the zero stamina regen effects lower-level Tanks? I've seen lots of tests from people in high-end content, but I'm wondering how this will possibly affect newer tanks when they are doing low-level dungeons. Before healers/templars have spear shards and lots of magika regen to keep spamming abilities, will this change still do okay?

Oh ***. Didnt think of this. That could be problematic @ZOS_RichLambert ?

I can imagine the low level dungeons being done without a tank. I'm not sure if the nerf would be that much of a problem so long as a player isn't blocking multiple enemies.

My last 2 alts I PUGed all the reg dungeons with 3 DPS 1 healer because I got tired of waiting for a tank (only my main is a tank, non of my other alts are).

This will be the case for all easy content IMO since the tank will be a net drag on the group unless a boss hits very hard. Most of the vet dungeons are actually easier with no tank even now (Darkshade, Elden Hollow, Wayrest, Spindleclutch) if you have even moderate DPS with you. Only Crypt of Hearts Gold Key and CoA really need a tank.

Sensesfail13 · August 2015

I dont get it its also possible to take the cap off of a beer with a lighter but Id sure as hell rather use a bottle opener 3/4 of that isnt even tanking you were wretched at aggro and you were relying on a shield and heals which wont work in trials. Im sure eventually we'll all figure out another way to get around this nerf in the long run but why the hell should we when it doesnt need to be and shouldnt be implemented.
It is abundantly apparent that the developers just sat around a table scratching their heads like "how should we fix this hot mess we've created?" and one was like " I know lets just screw everybody, that will fix the problem. Derp." Block casting isnt a problem it has been an unintended consequence of game mechanics since beta along with animation cancelling which zenimax has publicly announced was unintended but good for the game. Same damn thing, and just because somebody or something is blocking doesnt mean they are unkillable it means that the player that moans and groans about having a tough time with them is just too moronic to change their tactics and learn how to play their class. A generic fix for a complicated problem, the Zenimax way.

AhPook_Is_Here · August 2015

Low levels won't matter since a bus driver can carry.

PBpsy · August 2015

Tanking in 2.1 : it is possible, managable and supremely boring. Worthlessly agroing and kiting in circles terrified can be had in many new cool POS FTP games out there. Why should ESO be different!?

Kupoking · August 2015

Consider I have not been able to complete vet versions of white gold tower and imperial prisons, which is the only content right now for me to makes ky teeths on since vdsa was done for ke since january, plus have to learn a new tanking mech... I say im having more fun then when I steamroll through gold pledge on all my vet toons only to stack a bunch of keys.

Kupoking · August 2015

Sensesfail13 wrote: »

I dont get it its also possible to take the cap off of a beer with a lighter but Id sure as hell rather use a bottle opener 3/4 of that isnt even tanking you were wretched at aggro and you were relying on a shield and heals which wont work in trials. Im sure eventually we'll all figure out another way to get around this nerf in the long run but why the hell should we when it doesnt need to be and shouldnt be implemented.
It is abundantly apparent that the developers just sat around a table scratching their heads like "how should we fix this hot mess we've created?" and one was like " I know lets just screw everybody, that will fix the problem. Derp." Block casting isnt a problem it has been an unintended consequence of game mechanics since beta along with animation cancelling which zenimax has publicly announced was unintended but good for the game. Same damn thing, and just because somebody or something is blocking doesnt mean they are unkillable it means that the player that moans and groans about having a tough time with them is just too moronic to change their tactics and learn how to play their class. A generic fix for a complicated problem, the Zenimax way.

PBpsy wrote: »

Tanking in 2.1 : it is possible, managable and supremely boring. Worthlessly agroing and kiting in circles terrified can be had in many new cool POS FTP games out there. Why should ESO be different!?

You guys sound like you did not test it out on the pts. Why bother complaining here about it.

All I read here is only ass-umptions

sloppy_O_Shot · August 2015

Aett_Thorn wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, has anybody been testing how the zero stamina regen effects lower-level Tanks? I've seen lots of tests from people in high-end content, but I'm wondering how this will possibly affect newer tanks when they are doing low-level dungeons. Before healers/templars have spear shards and lots of magika regen to keep spamming abilities, will this change still do okay?

This is one of my biggest complaints about the game. They just launched Console 3 months ago an I feel like all the changes are made based on PC. Don't get me wrong.....I'm in no way bashing PC or blaming them. However us console users have no way to see any data like PC can with add-on programs. We have no way of knowing much of anything other then base stats.

This nerf will hurt us even more due to the fast we don't tons of CP's to help makeup for the nerf to stamina. So eveyone is saying how VDSA is way to easy and all of that. Well yes for PC players this might be true but from what I heard it was just cleared for the 1st time this week. Again I'm going off what I saw posted on a guild message. Regardless if that's true or not it main point still stands.

I'm not going to come here and act like I know everything about tanking. The fact is I have only been a tank for 2 weeks at the most. I finally found a team. However we needed a tank so I took one for the team. Did a complete rebuild of everything CP. SP, gear, ect.... So I'm still learning the ins and outs.

Now as someone said earlier. This won't just change tanking this will change everything. From the healer having to focus on the tank 90% of the time instead of helping heal the other members of the team or help with DPS. Think about it. As a tank I try to taunt as many enemies as I can to keep them grouped. Having much less stamina now won't be able to do that anymore. They are somewhat on their own and most can't take but a few hits before they go down. I really can't see why this change is being implemented in the 1st place. if it's because of PvP I ask.....Is it really that big of a problem? More then many other issues in PvP. I would think maybe fixing lag and balancing teams would be a much bigger issue then tanks perma blocking. In all honesty how many tanks do you even see in PvP?

Personofsecrets · August 2015

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

Sensesfail13 wrote: »

I dont get it its also possible to take the cap off of a beer with a lighter but Id sure as hell rather use a bottle opener 3/4 of that isnt even tanking you were wretched at aggro and you were relying on a shield and heals which wont work in trials. Im sure eventually we'll all figure out another way to get around this nerf in the long run but why the hell should we when it doesnt need to be and shouldnt be implemented.
It is abundantly apparent that the developers just sat around a table scratching their heads like "how should we fix this hot mess we've created?" and one was like " I know lets just screw everybody, that will fix the problem. Derp." Block casting isnt a problem it has been an unintended consequence of game mechanics since beta along with animation cancelling which zenimax has publicly announced was unintended but good for the game. Same damn thing, and just because somebody or something is blocking doesnt mean they are unkillable it means that the player that moans and groans about having a tough time with them is just too moronic to change their tactics and learn how to play their class. A generic fix for a complicated problem, the Zenimax way.

PBpsy wrote: »

Tanking in 2.1 : it is possible, managable and supremely boring. Worthlessly agroing and kiting in circles terrified can be had in many new cool POS FTP games out there. Why should ESO be different!?

You guys sound like you did not test it out on the pts. Why bother complaining here about it.

All I read here is only ass-umptions

Well, it goes the other way as well.

@Ixtyr wrote that they were having fun adjusting to the nerf in veteran dungeons, but, on stream, said how they were dying, as the tank, in wayrest sewers of all places. He also wrote about how tanks aren't going to be able to just hold block any more. Not only should he know better than repeating that wrong-headed platitude, but on his stream @deltia discussed how just holding block was going to be more than possible after the update. What is the actual worst are the PVP DPS players, who have hardly a clue about the intricacies or esoteric parts of tanking and nor do they care because they see the change as good for some easily refuted reason.

What I mean to show by the above examples is that the people who are for the nerf haven't really been that reputable in their discussions.

I certainly don't want "is wayrest sewers still doable" to be the goal to balance tanking around and I certainly don't want people who make money from this game or PVP players telling me how things should be. It is also strange that some people think the nerf is fine because the play style it is meant to stop is still doable (ironic belief) while other people think the nerf is fine because it will make tanks release their block even though releasing blocking and then reblocking doesn't really work to preserve stamina that well due to how the stamina regeneration ticks work (not knowledgeable belief).

From that perspective, the people who want the nerf are really a confused bunch. Even worse is that the developers seem to share some of the logic of those players and it is fatal that such logic goes against development goals.

- Nerf
- Heavy handed nerf
- Sweeping change that invalidates some playstyles
- Makes being just as effective in PVE and PVP tougher for tanks
- Doesn't embrace players doing what they want despite design intent

All of those things have been against the developers vision for the game, but apparently their brand new vision of tanking is more important than not breaking those other long time foundation stones of their development.

Stalwart385 · August 2015

My tank must be at minimum self sustaining. That means in fights I can take the boss or mobs to the side and let the heals and dps do there thing. A lot of mechanics require this.

I am right on the edge of being comfortably self sustaining in 2.1. I don't have my build set up how I want just yet, but I know its possible. The issue is if it's more fun or makes sense. The answer for me there is no. A tank should not have to put all into mana regen so they can produce stamina. The nerf removing stamina regen for tanks is bad imo.

So yes tanks are making it work. That was never the issue, people will find a way. It is the gimpy builds and neutered play style that is now necessary. The stat bar babysitting isn't fun or more interactive.

Personofsecrets · August 2015

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

Consider I have not been able to complete vet versions of white gold tower and imperial prisons, which is the only content right now for me to makes ky teeths on since vdsa was done for ke since january, plus have to learn a new tanking mech... I say im having more fun then when I steamroll through gold pledge on all my vet toons only to stack a bunch of keys.

The White Gold Tower is another mess for tanks.

To start, the adjudicator does no damage from basic attacks and that means that what the tank is specifying for (damage mitigation) isn't that good. To finish, the one large hitting attack that the Adjudicator does do, the traveling hand on the ground, targets randomly and easily can harm a DPS player by no fault of the tank.

Then we have the Planar Inhibitor. @zos_richlambert , here me out on this one. What is the tank supposed to be doing here? The aggro orb mechanic is not fun for tanks and trivializes the tank role. Likewise, the portal mechanic isn't something that tanks can do as a tank. The completions of this fight I have seen involve the tank not really being a tank and, for that reason, it is a more poorly designed fight, for the health of the game, than the Engine Guardian fight. At least with the Engine Guardian you could have been naive in making a fight where a tank isn't that useful. But now, with the knowledge of the Engine Guardian and with your altruistic goal of making tanking more fun and interactive, you have absolutely no excuse to make a fight like you did with the Planar Inhibitor.

usmcjdking · August 2015

Personofsecrets wrote: »

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

Consider I have not been able to complete vet versions of white gold tower and imperial prisons, which is the only content right now for me to makes ky teeths on since vdsa was done for ke since january, plus have to learn a new tanking mech... I say im having more fun then when I steamroll through gold pledge on all my vet toons only to stack a bunch of keys.

The White Gold Tower is another mess for tanks.

To start, the adjudicator does no damage from basic attacks and that means that what the tank is specifying for (damage mitigation) isn't that good. To finish, the one large hitting attack that the Adjudicator does do, the traveling hand on the ground, targets randomly and easily can harm a DPS player by no fault of the tank.

Then we have the Planar Inhibitor. @zos_richlambert , here me out on this one. What is the tank supposed to be doing here? The aggro orb mechanic is not fun for tanks and trivializes the tank role. Likewise, the portal mechanic isn't something that tanks can do as a tank. The completions of this fight I have seen involve the tank not really being a tank and, for that reason, it is a more poorly designed fight, for the health of the game, than the Engine Guardian fight. At least with the Engine Guardian you could have been naive in making a fight where a tank isn't that useful. But now, with the knowledge of the Engine Guardian and with your altruistic goal of making tanking more fun and interactive, you have absolutely no excuse to make a fight like you did with the Planar Inhibitor.

Thank God someone said it.

The tank serves one purpose and one purpose only - and that's to damage-sponge bosses.

Yes, playing a tank is a boring and simple job - but it's an ATTRACTIVE, lucrative job. It takes a tank like 15 seconds to find a group unlike the legions of DPSers.

Making tanks more 'exciting' makes us more unattractive as a tank. I can't wait for the "LF3M DPS vet pledge" calls. If you want to see what direction you are headed by nerfing the *** out of tanks (which is a common theme in MMOs), take a look at Neverwinter's Guardian Fighter around Module 2 & 3. That was tons of fun....if you could ever find a group.

mattlarsonmdl_ESO · August 2015

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

mattlarsonmdl_ESO wrote: »

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

Was able to get capped in spellresist using the new head/shoulder of lord warden/armor buff/full heavy. But was at 23k physical resist for some reason.

This has to some sort of bug. I cant see it being a bug.

might have to re-check. 23k might unbuffed. Could get to 32k with the buff.

I am going from memory here but I swear I couldn't break 18900 armor unbuffed.. Full gold.. And the carry over didnt import old gear. I doubt reinforced makes up the difference.

Apokh · August 2015

First:
Nobody of us WANTS the nerf. But it is coming and the truth is, that it is not true to state "tanking without stamina reg is NOT DOABLE"

Second:
This change will NOT change everything. When you are not skilled on REG and have like 400 sta reg, you will not reg enough sta even on live to survive blocking all the time in diverse fights on live. If did sth to push your reg and have like 1400 sta reg, small spaces in a fight will give you the chance to rgenerate large amounts of stamina in short time.

Third:
To take the example of the axes, at the beginning when aa was new, some guilds did this fight with two tanks. Nowadays the dps isbthat high, that you can afford this til you learned. When now the argument is that sth like this " cannot be the solution" i ask " why not" ?

Timeetyo · August 2015

nordsavage wrote: »

All you did was poke and soak and pop shields, you even died. You did little in the way of damage or buffing/debuffing. All I see is that tanking will be about keeping the gas tank full instead of actively steering the fight and supplemental dps. To any true tank your video is a point against the regen nerf.

Exactly this.

Is it possible -yes.
Is it better as zos proclaims - it sure doesn't look like it

Personofsecrets · August 2015

Apokh wrote: »

First:
Nobody of us WANTS the nerf. But it is coming and the truth is, that it is not true to state "tanking without stamina reg is NOT DOABLE"

Second:
This change will NOT change everything. When you are not skilled on REG and have like 400 sta reg, you will not reg enough sta even on live to survive blocking all the time in diverse fights on live. If did sth to push your reg and have like 1400 sta reg, small spaces in a fight will give you the chance to rgenerate large amounts of stamina in short time.

Third:
To take the example of the axes, at the beginning when aa was new, some guilds did this fight with two tanks. Nowadays the dps isbthat high, that you can afford this til you learned. When now the argument is that sth like this " cannot be the solution" i ask " why not" ?

Nobody wants a nerf and that is why we have fought so hard against it. Your comments basically say to get good. Thanks for helping, not.

sloppy_O_Shot · August 2015

I have another quick question. Are they going to add any damage for the sword and shield, or have they said anything about lowering the cost of current stamina abilities? IDK maybe I'm doing something wrong but as a tank I do almost no damage with my main weapons. in all honesty even my spells don't do much damage because most abilities are set to help my team not myself. With this change we will have to change out skills to try an compensate for the lack of Stamina. I can't test it for myself (console) so this is why I'm asking.

Kupoking · August 2015

sloppy_O_Shot wrote: »

I have another quick question. Are they going to add any damage for the sword and shield, or have they said anything about lowering the cost of current stamina abilities? IDK maybe I'm doing something wrong but as a tank I do almost no damage with my main weapons. in all honesty even my spells don't do much damage because most abilities are set to help my team not myself. With this change we will have to change out skills to try an compensate for the lack of Stamina. I can't test it for myself (console) so this is why I'm asking.

Right now, there isnt really a damage option while tanking unless you run old and easy content like old dungeons, you can sacrifice some defensive abilities for some offensive ones, but dont expect amazing numbers.

sloppy_O_Shot · August 2015

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

sloppy_O_Shot wrote: »

I have another quick question. Are they going to add any damage for the sword and shield, or have they said anything about lowering the cost of current stamina abilities? IDK maybe I'm doing something wrong but as a tank I do almost no damage with my main weapons. in all honesty even my spells don't do much damage because most abilities are set to help my team not myself. With this change we will have to change out skills to try an compensate for the lack of Stamina. I can't test it for myself (console) so this is why I'm asking.

Right now, there isnt really a damage option while tanking unless you run old and easy content like old dungeons, you can sacrifice some defensive abilities for some offensive ones, but dont expect amazing numbers.

This is what worries me. I understand by talking to a few PvP players that this is an issue in PvP as some are just holding block to gen ult. I have to ask......How is this an issue? Ult is really the only way to do damage as a tank. Other than taunt our weapons are near useless and you have to slot mostly defensive/heal abilities just to stay alive. With the way it's going to be the tank is just going to be able poke and run. A tank running away from the same enemies I just taunted? What kind of tank is that? Sound more like a sissy tank. BTW every one of the PvP players I asked said they didn't think it was something that needed a nerf and in no way did they think it was good to lose 100% stamina regen.

Maybe tanks should now just loose the sword and shield and go bare hands. They should probably just add an ability called run slap. So we can just slap them and run around. Each slap will give you 50% of your total stamina and taunt for 10sec so you can keep running and slapping everyone.

Kupoking · August 2015

Well this post discusses the change in tanking in pve mostly, I would not see it possible to drop the shield as we need the mitigation, the lower block cost.

Although there are weapons power or spell power, you will not get amazing damage numbers and will have trouble sustaining your stam and magika for your tanking duites.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · August 2015

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

With all those posts on the forums asking to revert the change to blocking in 2.1 I decided to try to education people on the change and how it affects tanking in PvE.

I will debunk a lot of false statements, bad assumptions, feared situation that a lot of people who are against it might use to confuse the masses or use fear tactics to gain support of their cause.

Note that all my tanking experience on pts are on veteran mode of the two new dungeons, which mean the hardest content in the game right now; super hard hitting and unforgiving bosses and trash mobs who arent trash at all.

1- There is no way to tank without constantly blocking especially in raids.
False. Since I experienced pts Ive reran most endgame raiding and content. All bosses have certain patterns in which tanks can memorize and use to know when to drop block and land 1 or a few heavy attacks. Some of them are very slim or short gaps between attack(might be where ZoS could adjust for less exp tanks).

The serpent of serpent's image is one of them. His pattern is 6-7 light attack that will kill you if unblocked followed by a cleave aoe attack you must avoid. I was able to land an heavy attack during the cleave most of the time. I would use a bubble in case I missed and got hit. Would picture it being good practice for what's coming.

Other than that, being a templar tank, I would often use puncturing sweep in dungeons for fun. Made me learn when I could drop block to use this channel ability without gettng rocked. Found out you could easily drop block most of the time.

2-As soon as I receive a few hits i'll be at zero stam and remain there all the fight.
The truth is, you can drop you block cost so low that with a stam pool of 15k you will have plenty of time to make actions to make stam go back up before it is completely depleted. Rarely Ive seen blocked hits drain more than 1-2% of my stam.

At the beginning of a fight, you will see that your stam will drop slowly. If you play right you can maintain it in between 50-75% which is your safe zone.

Here is a video as reference to this : http://youtu.be/mDYgjH8AINY

Takes place on 2nd of of white gold tower vet mode. You tank 3 bosses at the same time so getting the right timing is hard for heavy attacking in there. At the start of the fight I die and rez at zero stam, your nightmare in this patch. Look how I pull my way up to 70% stam while still doing my job. Also look at how much stam is drained by each attacks. The dual wield boss use rapid strikes. Watch how my stam isnt dropping that whole much during this attack.

3-even if stam drains slowly, there is no way to regen it so youll get to zero and stay there.
Another false fear that people have. Not that IF you decide to block all the time, you can still manage to pull it through somehow. The armor set of the black rose give you nice stam regen while blocking. 700 stam every 5th attack blocked. People underestimate this set. Will not keep you up all the time but will definately help alot as you will last a lot longer, will pardon periods in which you cant of didnt heavy attack.

Also, shards will regen stam like monster. You will definately notice it. Having a good healer or templar dps drop these will solve all your stam *** ups and even more, allow you a smooth run. I almost think you can block 100% of the time if you run block cost redux enchants and champ passive.

Another smart way to reduce stam cost is to run dodge chance. Hist bark set, med armor ability, etc. Will give you 20% chance to completely avoid an attack and its stam cost if blocking. 1/5 attacks in the mix means near 1/5 less costs more or less.

Note also that DKs got some nice stam restoration with passives. Ill let you check it out and theorycraft on this.

Note2: have not tested it, but Im pretty sure the stats restored on hit passive in heavy armor works while blocking too.

4- I cannot use a single stam ability on my bars.
I though that after my first few pulls. But I was wrong. Although I use way more magika based abilities, the stam taunt costs nothing. Low slash is quite useful with a templar and is also managable. If course, rather use rune focus, DKs spiked armor rather than immovable. Note that the stam abilities still has to be low cost and have a long enough effects. Took caltrops outta my bar for example, although I know a tank who still runs it on its templar tank in 2.1.

I will conclude here as the post is long enough. Feel free to try to destroy my arguments as much as you want. My hope is that some tank uses this post to guide them and help them adapt, improve, evolve, make them become great tanks in 2.1. As of me, I dont mind anything that happens. Zos stated that the change is here to stay. Therefore that means Ill be a tank in high demand next patch since I was able to adapt and is able to tank all that content. Now question is, what will you do next?

Good Luck
Red'ak

So what you're saying is that a Dragon Knight Tank with a Templar Healer with still be a thing what about the Nightblade Tanks, Sorc Healers you know the non cookie cutter default tank and healer.

I have to say it's good to your work it's detailed and a God for DK Tanks but their are three other classes of tanks that can't do that, and three other classes of healers. Forcing tanks to Dragon Knight and Healers to Templar is just inching closer to the classic MMO class locks. No we will never see locks here but making role need to use the "right" class passive is a few steps backwards.

My healer can restore 25% of your stamina plus more of ten seconds so my Nightblade healer will be useless as the tank will the healer to feed them resources beautiful work ZoS.

Leonis · August 2015

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

Here is a video as reference to this : http://youtu.be/mDYgjH8AINY

So what you're saying is that a Dragon Knight Tank with a Templar Healer with still be a thing what about the Nightblade Tanks, Sorc Healers you know the non cookie cutter default tank and healer.

I have to say it's good to your work it's detailed and a God for DK Tanks but their are three other classes of tanks that can't do that, and three other classes of healers. Forcing tanks to Dragon Knight and Healers to Templar is just inching closer to the classic MMO class locks. No we will never see locks here but making role need to use the "right" class passive is a few steps backwards.

My healer can restore 25% of your stamina plus more of ten seconds so my Nightblade healer will be useless as the tank will the healer to feed them resources beautiful work ZoS.

DK Tanks ? Did you look the video ? He is a templar, isn't he ?

In fact, Sorc Tanks are pretty good too (dark exchange), and Nightblades are not bad.

I don't like the change (no regen...) but i've tried and it's still ok (i'm a noob but i've done the begining of the prison (normal) alone and put the first boss at 50% with the template. With a group, it'll be easy.)

Personofsecrets · August 2015

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

sloppy_O_Shot wrote: »

I have another quick question. Are they going to add any damage for the sword and shield, or have they said anything about lowering the cost of current stamina abilities? IDK maybe I'm doing something wrong but as a tank I do almost no damage with my main weapons. in all honesty even my spells don't do much damage because most abilities are set to help my team not myself. With this change we will have to change out skills to try an compensate for the lack of Stamina. I can't test it for myself (console) so this is why I'm asking.

Right now, there isnt really a damage option while tanking unless you run old and easy content like old dungeons, you can sacrifice some defensive abilities for some offensive ones, but dont expect amazing numbers.

This is an example of my VDSA DPS. It's not super, but it is what one would expect from a tank. For reference the DPS deal 500-600k damage. The difference in what we are doing is that I deal bits of damage to many enemies and the DPS deal a lot of damage to one enemy. This is something that I worked really hard to achieve and am a bit proud of because VDSA is all about finding ways to speed up the fights.

It just so happens that I completed VDSA on the PTS and was the tank. As you say, the content was doable.

That being said, there were a couple of waves were I fully ran out of stamina, which is abnormal, and there was nothing we could really do about it. I also lost caltrops from my build and didn't feel comfortable using pierce armor on occasion. That is the cost of such a nerf, but isn't the only cost.

One of my friends in that run discussed how they where going to have to totally change their tanking build because, after testing, being a stamina based Tank DPS didn't seem viable to them any longer. This is the current state of tanking. We have to do more than just taunt and block. That is what is expected of tanks because groups want to 'put the pedal to the metal.' The nerf is inhibitory to tanks being more versatile.

There are very specific strategies that get used on the final boss and the best one yet involved me bashing the Champion Marcauld add so that the add is stunned when it tries to drop it's Circle of Protection Heal. We struggled here and tried a few different strategies.

First we used negate on the circle of protection. That was cool, but a bit awkward. Then we tried for me to bash as is normal. That didn't quite work and I think the stamina regeneration ticks would have made a difference. The last strategy we used involved using an actual ultimate on Marcauld so that we could burn him down faster. That is the strategy that ended up leading to our success. So as you see, not only does the nerf affect the tank, but it also drastically changes what the DPS and healer has to do. Tanking sustain is now, in part, a function of how long a fight lasts and the nerf reinforces burning through enemies rather than following their mechanics.

Maybe none of the is bad per se because 'adaption' and 'change' is a priori good. Despite what anyone says about being able to adapt though, many people don't want the nerf and it is hypocritical when we look at foundations of the developmental process; not liking to nerf, not liking heavy handed nerfs, not making changes that cause players to totally switch their builds, etc, etc.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · August 2015

Leonis wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

Here is a video as reference to this : http://youtu.be/mDYgjH8AINY

So what you're saying is that a Dragon Knight Tank with a Templar Healer with still be a thing what about the Nightblade Tanks, Sorc Healers you know the non cookie cutter default tank and healer.

I have to say it's good to your work it's detailed and a God for DK Tanks but their are three other classes of tanks that can't do that, and three other classes of healers. Forcing tanks to Dragon Knight and Healers to Templar is just inching closer to the classic MMO class locks. No we will never see locks here but making role need to use the "right" class passive is a few steps backwards.

My healer can restore 25% of your stamina plus more of ten seconds so my Nightblade healer will be useless as the tank will the healer to feed them resources beautiful work ZoS.

DK Tanks ? Did you look the video ? He is a templar, isn't he ?

In fact, Sorc Tanks are pretty good too (dark exchange), and Nightblades are not bad.

I don't like the change (no regen...) but i've tried and it's still ok (i'm a noob but i've done the begining of the prison (normal) alone and put the first boss at 50% with the template. With a group, it'll be easy.)

Nightblade don't have class shield to hit like that Dragon or the Tank class with Templar right behind both my great times of a Templar tank die three times then a Dragon Knoght will not die as they are better at outlasting. So when ever I talk about tanks I default it to Dragon Knights. My main has limitless stamina and vigor my tank toon is a different story no go self heal do that a Nightblade without Vigor and 240 cp

Leonis · August 2015

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Nightblade don't have class shield to hit like that Dragon or the Tank class with Templar right behind both my great times of a Templar tank die three times then a Dragon Knoght will not die as they are better at outlasting. So when ever I talk about tanks I default it to Dragon Knights. My main has limitless stamina and vigor my tank toon is a different story no go self heal do that a Nightblade without Vigor and 240 cp

Make a magicka based tank, maybe.
I don't know but "swallow soul" is not good ? sap essence ? soul shred and co ?
siphoning attacks with calltrop for stamina ?

You can try and find a way. There should be one.

ps : the DK class shield is garbage as a shield and don't last long when you tank, it's more a healing done bonus buff and a group shield.

Kupoking · August 2015

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

With all those posts on the forums asking to revert the change to blocking in 2.1 I decided to try to education people on the change and how it affects tanking in PvE.

I will debunk a lot of false statements, bad assumptions, feared situation that a lot of people who are against it might use to confuse the masses or use fear tactics to gain support of their cause.

Note that all my tanking experience on pts are on veteran mode of the two new dungeons, which mean the hardest content in the game right now; super hard hitting and unforgiving bosses and trash mobs who arent trash at all.

1- There is no way to tank without constantly blocking especially in raids.
False. Since I experienced pts Ive reran most endgame raiding and content. All bosses have certain patterns in which tanks can memorize and use to know when to drop block and land 1 or a few heavy attacks. Some of them are very slim or short gaps between attack(might be where ZoS could adjust for less exp tanks).

The serpent of serpent's image is one of them. His pattern is 6-7 light attack that will kill you if unblocked followed by a cleave aoe attack you must avoid. I was able to land an heavy attack during the cleave most of the time. I would use a bubble in case I missed and got hit. Would picture it being good practice for what's coming.

Other than that, being a templar tank, I would often use puncturing sweep in dungeons for fun. Made me learn when I could drop block to use this channel ability without gettng rocked. Found out you could easily drop block most of the time.

2-As soon as I receive a few hits i'll be at zero stam and remain there all the fight.
The truth is, you can drop you block cost so low that with a stam pool of 15k you will have plenty of time to make actions to make stam go back up before it is completely depleted. Rarely Ive seen blocked hits drain more than 1-2% of my stam.

At the beginning of a fight, you will see that your stam will drop slowly. If you play right you can maintain it in between 50-75% which is your safe zone.

Here is a video as reference to this : http://youtu.be/mDYgjH8AINY

Takes place on 2nd of of white gold tower vet mode. You tank 3 bosses at the same time so getting the right timing is hard for heavy attacking in there. At the start of the fight I die and rez at zero stam, your nightmare in this patch. Look how I pull my way up to 70% stam while still doing my job. Also look at how much stam is drained by each attacks. The dual wield boss use rapid strikes. Watch how my stam isnt dropping that whole much during this attack.

3-even if stam drains slowly, there is no way to regen it so youll get to zero and stay there.
Another false fear that people have. Not that IF you decide to block all the time, you can still manage to pull it through somehow. The armor set of the black rose give you nice stam regen while blocking. 700 stam every 5th attack blocked. People underestimate this set. Will not keep you up all the time but will definately help alot as you will last a lot longer, will pardon periods in which you cant of didnt heavy attack.

Also, shards will regen stam like monster. You will definately notice it. Having a good healer or templar dps drop these will solve all your stam *** ups and even more, allow you a smooth run. I almost think you can block 100% of the time if you run block cost redux enchants and champ passive.

Another smart way to reduce stam cost is to run dodge chance. Hist bark set, med armor ability, etc. Will give you 20% chance to completely avoid an attack and its stam cost if blocking. 1/5 attacks in the mix means near 1/5 less costs more or less.

Note also that DKs got some nice stam restoration with passives. Ill let you check it out and theorycraft on this.

Note2: have not tested it, but Im pretty sure the stats restored on hit passive in heavy armor works while blocking too.

4- I cannot use a single stam ability on my bars.
I though that after my first few pulls. But I was wrong. Although I use way more magika based abilities, the stam taunt costs nothing. Low slash is quite useful with a templar and is also managable. If course, rather use rune focus, DKs spiked armor rather than immovable. Note that the stam abilities still has to be low cost and have a long enough effects. Took caltrops outta my bar for example, although I know a tank who still runs it on its templar tank in 2.1.

I will conclude here as the post is long enough. Feel free to try to destroy my arguments as much as you want. My hope is that some tank uses this post to guide them and help them adapt, improve, evolve, make them become great tanks in 2.1. As of me, I dont mind anything that happens. Zos stated that the change is here to stay. Therefore that means Ill be a tank in high demand next patch since I was able to adapt and is able to tank all that content. Now question is, what will you do next?

Good Luck
Red'ak

So what you're saying is that a Dragon Knight Tank with a Templar Healer with still be a thing what about the Nightblade Tanks, Sorc Healers you know the non cookie cutter default tank and healer.

I have to say it's good to your work it's detailed and a God for DK Tanks but their are three other classes of tanks that can't do that, and three other classes of healers. Forcing tanks to Dragon Knight and Healers to Templar is just inching closer to the classic MMO class locks. No we will never see locks here but making role need to use the "right" class passive is a few steps backwards.

My healer can restore 25% of your stamina plus more of ten seconds so my Nightblade healer will be useless as the tank will the healer to feed them resources beautiful work ZoS.

Ive said none of that. Quit putting words in my mouth. My testing was done with a templar tank at first. You completely proved you have not read the posts after.