Siphoning Attacks Feedback: In-depth tanking perspective [DB Update]

ThatNeonZebraAgain

EDIT 2: For discussion on impacts from DB Update, click here.

EDIT: For discussion about the change to SA in the 2.3.3 patch notes, start here. Discussion about Leeching Strikes alternatives start here.

Siphoning Attacks has always been the bread and butter for NB tanks, who themselves have been the persistent tanking underdog. This one active ability enabled the excellent resource management that has been the defining feature of NB tanks. Without SA, NBs have no other class active abilities (and only one passive, which requires killing an enemy with an Assassination ability to gain back a small amount of Magicka) that return Stamina or Magicka.

In addition to its own utility, Siphoning Attacks (alongside other class abilities like Mirage) opened up more gear choices to NB tanks beyond those typically used for other classes, such as not having to rely on Engine Guardian for resource management (or Hist Bark for dodge). SA's reliable way to sustain resources also allowed NB tanks to contribute a strong support role as effective off-healers and/or off-DPS (depending on Magicka vs Stamina spec) to make up for their relative lack of survivability or group utility that other classes bring (e.g. CC, damage shields, direct heals, mitigation bonuses, etc).

Over a year ago we learned that Siphoning Attacks already has a hidden internal cooldown of ~1 to 1.5 seconds (hard to measure for sure). Siphoning Attacks has received significant negative changes in the last balance update (the Imperial City update), which consisted of (1) removing the toggle in favor of a short buff without a damage penalty; (2) adding a magicka cost to this buff where previously it had no resource cost; and most significantly (3) replacing the % of resources returned on the 10% proc on damage abilities with a flat value (1944 Magicka and Stamina). These changes to Siphoning Attacks were on top of two other noteworthy changes that affect the effectiveness of SA. The first is the game-wide change to blocking, which now stops players from regenerating Stamina while holding down block (and it takes ~1.5 seconds after dropping block to start regenerating stamina). The second is the increase of time between damage ticks from .5 seconds to 1 second on many (all?) ground-target AoE DoT abilities, such as Twisting/Refreshing Path (a staple for NB tanks to help them take advantage of the Shadow line passive bonuses). This meant that the amount of times SA could proc on GTAoEDoT (ground-target area of effect damage over time, that's a mouthful) abilities was cut in half.

So, with all of that information in mind, here is the description of the change from the patch notes:

Siphoning Attacks (Siphoning Strikes morph): Fixed an issue where this morph could proc its resource return on every tick from a damage over time effect.

We know that before this change SA already only procc'd off certain ground-target AoE DoTs after the initial hit. Twisting Path worked, but Refreshing Path didn't, for example. As a single-target DoT, Cripple already has never proc'd it. Caltrops was somewhat different in terms of what it counted as (used to proc basic attack tick, then that was removed with IC update so it only had the % chance to proc). While DoTs were inconsistent with how they proc'd SA, they all nonetheless had a chance to proc it on their first hit (ie akin to a single direct damage ability). Given this, and like @hrothbern pointed out, I would imagine this change to SA is part of their ongoing effort in making combat systems more consistent.

In terms of balance, the main issue with SA proccing off of GTAoEDoTs was coupling it with Caltrops. Because of Caltrops' size and duration, it was possible to get a lot of procs off of it with multiple enemies. It was a really effective combo, if perhaps OP in some situations -- though much less so since both SA's and Caltrops's tweaks in the IC update. It's also important to state that Caltrops has a very high up front cost, which offers somewhat of a balance for the resource gain SA could provide off of it.

However, allowing SA to proc off certain GTAoEDoTs served a very important function: it allowed you more chances to return resources, especially given that SA has a somewhat high cost for what it is and since it restores a flat amount. Most importantly for NB tanks, it allowed you to do this while blocking. Having a way to help sustain resources while blocking and casting your main abilities was key for endgame content where you can't afford to drop block very often (or at all) because boss attacks are not communicated well (or there are too many visual effects going to catch the animation/telegraph), mechanics are buggy, there are attacks from adds at same time as boss, there's a risk of hard CC (eg knockdown) from adds and/or boss, etc. This is what made NBs able to uniquely and successfully fill the tanking role. Without it, NB tanks don't bring anything to the table that can't be brought by other classes; not only that, but the new inability to effectively manage resources poses a risk to the group.

I tested out the changes to SA and found that my NB tank's abilities to manage resources were severely diminished. Of course, SA still works nicely with light attack weaving, and AoE direct damage abilities like Sap Essence are still a good way to get multiple proc chances. Those things haven't changed, but those things also possess the same problems as they had before: you can't always afford to drop block to use basic attacks, and you can't always count on having multiple enemies close by to increase your chance of getting resources back. You have to get the ability to proc twice (at 10% chance per proc) within 15 seconds to cover the initial cost! Blockcasting a cheap ability like Swallow Soul or Entropy is a very risky way to try and regain resources as you dig yourself further into the hole of resource cost while the single-target proc can't return enough to even cost its own cost.

This change, on top of all the others made since last summer, puts Siphoning Attacks, and thus NB tanks by extension, in a very bad spot. I have several possible solutions, some of which depend on how much ZOS wants to keep it so that GTAoEDoTs don't proc SA (though DoTs can proc other things, such as the Valkyn Skoria 2pc bonus). Note that I'm not advocating for all of these to be implemented, just that they could be considered individually or possibly in some combination to help fix the place NB tanks are now in.

• Add ground-target abilities to list of things that can proc SA. This could even be limited further to class ground-target abilities. Since ground-target AoE DoTs can't be blocked, it makes sense to me that abilities like Twisting/Refreshing Path should proc it. The size of our class AoE DoTs is also much smaller than Caltrops, and thus poses less risk of mass proccing. In addition, NB tanks make use of these AoE DoTs already for the damage, utility, and Shadow line passives, so allowing SA to proc off them would also support common NB tanking abilities. Non-ground target AoE DoTs, such as Cripple, Lotus Fan, or bleeds should not proc (the same as it has been).
• Since SA already has an internal cooldown, add a cap to the number of targets that can simultaneously proc SA. This could be tied to the AoE cap, for example, so that only 6 targets have a chance to proc SA.
• Increase either the value of SA's stat return or its proc chance. If there are going to be so many limitations on how you can get SA to proc, then the payoff needs to be much greater. Consider returning SA to its original form where it restored a % of total resources.
• Reduce or eliminate the Magicka cost of SA, OR increase SA's duration to provide more chances to at least recover up front cost. I would argue that the duration should be increased anyways, as NB tanking since the IC update has become a 10-15 second buff management mini-game. Juggling a half-dozen buff timers is a chore.
• Return SA to a tank-specific ability by re-introducing a damage penalty, or otherwise reconfiguring the ability and its morphs. /u/Gottbeard from the ESO subreddit suggested ZOS could follow the precedent they are setting of taking the popular morph and pushing it to the base skill then introducing new morphs. This would make Siphoning Attacks the base skill, and free up the morphs to specialize for tanking vs DPS roles.

WolfingHour

I entirely agree with this.

SA as it stands now looks pretty much pointless, much like Earthen Hearth procs. Dark Deal and Restoring Aura are even worst.

If the point of this is to align NB tanks to other tanks, I say do the opposite and bring those skills closer to what we have since standing there like a muppet just blocking + taunting isn't the least bit fun.

Doing other things like bring utility, healing and dps (last two on a much lower effect of dedicated builds) is the fun bit.

code65536

I've tried tanking on the PTS, and the changes to SA do hurt, particularly in Maw when fighting those mobs of bannermen--I was running into a lot of resource problems even on normal mode. Over time and practice, I suppose it'll be manageable, and I can probably adapt to it, but it is making tanking less fun, and at this point, I'd rather do Maw in my DPS role than in my tanking role.

And I want to note that this is the second major nerf to SA since I started tanking. The first was when the percentage return on SA was nerfed into a flat return that was substantially less than what I used to be getting. But at least that nerf had the silver lining that it made SA a viable and useful skill for when I am in the DPS role. This most recent change, however, is just a flat-out nerf for nb tanks with no recompense.

code65536

Duplicate. Please delete.

hrothbern

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

Siphoning Attacks has always been the bread and butter for NB tanks, who themselves have been the persistent tanking underdog. This one active ability enabled the excellent resource management that has been the defining feature of NB tanks. Without SA, NBs have no other class active abilities (and only one passive, which requires killing an enemy with an Assassination ability to gain back a small amount of Magicka) that return Stamina or Magicka.

In addition to its own utility, Siphoning Attacks (alongside other class abilities like Mirage) opened up more gear choices to NB tanks beyond those typically used for other classes, such as not having to rely on Engine Guardian for resource management (or Hist Bark for dodge). SA's reliable way to sustain resources also allowed NB tanks to contribute a strong support role as effective off-healers and/or off-DPS (depending on Magicka vs Stamina spec) to make up for their relative lack of survivability or group utility that other classes bring (e.g. CC, damage shields, direct heals, mitigation bonuses, etc).

Over a year ago we learned that Siphoning Attacks already has a hidden internal cooldown of ~1 to 1.5 seconds (hard to measure for sure). Siphoning Attacks has received significant negative changes in the last balance update (the Imperial City update), which consisted of (1) removing the toggle in favor of a short buff without a damage penalty; (2) adding a magicka cost to this buff where previously it had no resource cost; and most significantly (3) replacing the % of resources returned on the 10% proc on damage abilities with a flat value (1944 Magicka and Stamina). These changes to Siphoning Attacks were on top of two other noteworthy changes that affect the effectiveness of SA. The first is the game-wide change to blocking, which now stops players from regenerating Stamina while holding down block (and it takes ~1.5 seconds after dropping block to start regenerating stamina). The second is the increase of time between damage ticks from .5 seconds to 1 second on many (all?) ground-target AoE DoT abilities, such as Twisting/Refreshing Path (a staple for NB tanks to help them take advantage of the Shadow line passive bonuses). This meant that the amount of times SA could proc on GTAoEDoT (ground-target area of effect damage over time, that's a mouthful) abilities was cut in half.

So, with all of that information in mind, here is the description of the change from the patch notes:

Siphoning Attacks (Siphoning Strikes morph): Fixed an issue where this morph could proc its resource return on every tick from a damage over time effect.

We know that before this change SA already only procc'd off certain ground-target AoE DoTs after the initial hit. Twisting Path worked, but Refreshing Path didn't, for example. As a single-target DoT, Cripple already has never proc'd it. Caltrops was somewhat different in terms of what it counted as (used to proc basic attack tick, then that was removed with IC update so it only had the % chance to proc). While DoTs were inconsistent with how they proc'd SA, they all nonetheless had a chance to proc it on their first hit (ie akin to a single direct damage ability). Given this, and like @hrothbern pointed out, I would imagine this change to SA is part of their ongoing effort in making combat systems more consistent.

In terms of balance, the main issue with SA proccing off of GTAoEDoTs was coupling it with Caltrops. Because of Caltrops' size and duration, it was possible to get a lot of procs off of it with multiple enemies. It was a really effective combo, if perhaps OP in some situations -- though much less so since both SA's and Caltrops's tweaks in the IC update. It's also important to state that Caltrops has a very high up front cost, which offers somewhat of a balance for the resource gain SA could provide off of it.

However, allowing SA to proc off certain GTAoEDoTs served a very important function: it allowed you more chances to return resources, especially given that SA has a somewhat high cost for what it is and since it restores a flat amount. Most importantly for NB tanks, it allowed you to do this while blocking. Having a way to help sustain resources while blocking and casting your main abilities was key for endgame content where you can't afford to drop block very often (or at all) either because boss attacks are communicated well, bugged, attacks from adds at same time as boss, risk of hard CC (eg knockdown) from adds and/or boss, etc. This is what made NBs able to uniquely and successfully fill the tanking role. Without it, NB tanks don't bring anything to the table that can't be brought by other classes; not only that, but the new inability to effectively manage resources poses a risk to the group.

I tested out the changes to SA and found that my NB tank's abilities to manage resources were severely diminished. Of course, SA still works nicely with light attack weaving, and AoE direct damage abilities like Sap Essence are still a good way to get multiple proc chances. Those things haven't changed, but those things also possess the same problems as they had before: you can't always afford to drop block to use basic attacks, and you can't always count on having multiple enemies close by to increase your chance of getting resources back. You have to get the ability to proc twice (at 10% chance per proc) within 15 seconds to cover the initial cost! Blockcasting a cheap ability like Swallow Soul or Entropy is a very risky way to try and regain resources as you dig yourself further into the hole of resource cost while the single-target proc can't return enough to even cost its own cost.

This change, on top of all the others made since last summer, puts Siphoning Attacks, and thus NB tanks by extension, in a very bad spot. I have several possible solutions, some of which depend on how much ZOS wants to keep it so that GTAoEDoTs don't proc SA (though DoTs can proc other things, such as the Valkyn Skoria 2pc bonus). Note that I'm not advocating for all of these to be implemented, just that they could be considered individually or possibly in some combination to help fix the place NB tanks are now in.

• Add ground-target abilities to list of things that can proc SA. This could even be limited further to class ground-target abilities. Since ground-target AoE DoTs can't be blocked, it makes sense to me that abilities like Twisting/Refreshing Path should proc it. The size of our class AoE DoTs is also much smaller than Caltrops, and thus poses less risk of mass proccing. In addition, NB tanks make use of these AoE DoTs already for the damage, utility, and Shadow line passives, so allowing SA to proc off them would also support common NB tanking abilities. Non-ground target AoE DoTs, such as Cripple, Lotus Fan, or bleeds should not proc (the same as it has been).
• Since SA already has an internal cooldown, add a cap to the number of targets that can simultaneously proc SA. This could be tied to the AoE cap, for example, so that only 6 targets have a chance to proc SA.
• Increase either the value of SA's stat return or its proc chance. If there are going to be so many limitations on how you can get SA to proc, then the payoff needs to be much greater. Consider returning SA to its original form where it restored a % of total resources.
• Reduce or eliminate the Magicka cost of SA, OR increase SA's duration to provide more chances to at least recover up front cost. I would argue that the duration should be increased anyways, as NB tanking since the IC update has become a 10-15 second buff management mini-game. Juggling a half-dozen buff timers is a chore.

+1

Emma_Overload

This is the only thing I feel sorry for Nightblades. Because Surge was nerfed in a very similar way, I understand why NBs are upset about this.

Having said that, I can't say I'm surprised this happened, either. Did Nightblades really think they would get to be the only class that didn't have their survive & sustain skills nerfed? ZOS only cares about DPS, now.... Maelstrom Arena proves it. If you can't burn stuff down fast enough, you don't deserve to live, according to the devs!

hrothbern

I think that fundamentally the NB Siphoning Tank suffers from sharing abilities with the NB DPS builds.

Good resources was the strong point of the NB Tank, but cutting down resources of the NB DPS build also affects (heavily) the NB Siphoning Tank.

The analysis of @ThatNeonZebraAgain sums up very wel the collateral damage we suffer now.

Our basic 15 second buff rotation as tank includes now the taunt, SA & a shadow ability for the Armor buff (BTW that buff only last long enough when you have 5-7 HA).
Not much left to proc SA enough to get Magicka and Stamina after the TG nerfs on semi-DOT's.
No class defense for the Siphoning Tank (Cloack cannot be done because you lose the taunt !)

Besides the suggestions of @ThatNeonZebraAgain, what would also help the NB Tank is when Summon Shades (and Morphs) would count as a Taunt !!!
That does not strengthen the NB DPS,
but it does save the NB Tank casting an ability every 15 seconds.

ThatNeonZebraAgain

hrothbern wrote: »

I think that fundamentally the NB Siphoning Tank suffers from sharing abilities with the NB DPS builds.

Good resources was the strong point of the NB Tank, but cutting down resources of the NB DPS build also affects (heavily) the NB Siphoning Tank.

The analysis of @ThatNeonZebraAgain sums up very wel the collateral damage we suffer now.

Our basic 15 second buff rotation as tank includes now the taunt, SA & a shadow ability for the Armor buff (BTW that buff only last long enough when you have 5-7 HA).
Not much left to proc SA enough to get Magicka and Stamina after the TG nerfs on semi-DOT's.
No class defense for the Siphoning Tank (Cloack cannot be done because you lose the taunt !)

Besides the suggestions of @ThatNeonZebraAgain, what would also help the NB Tank is when Summon Shades (and Morphs) would count as a Taunt !!!
That does not strengthen the NB DPS,
but it does save the NB Tank casting an ability every 15 seconds.

They made Siphoning Attacks a DPS ability when they removed the toggle and damage debuff. Removing toggles now seems like part of their larger combat consistency plan, so that change makes a bit more sense in that context. However, the damage penalty is what kept it a tanking ability, and thus out of the hands of builds that prompt reactionary over-nerfs. The other morph of Siphoning is still useless, so perhaps they could rework that specifically for tanks.

Autolycus

The OP addresses a lot of points that I believe provide a lot of valuable insight to NB tanking, and as such I strongly support everything in the OP. It's very rare that I support a post wholeheartedly.

Siphoning Attacks is a key function for NB tanks (and many would argue for DPS as well) that is a must for almost every successful build, in all forms of content. Much of what I have seen since the PTS notes were released has been on-par with my own opinions, as well as my objective analyses.

I suspect that the underlying concern with SA is it's ability to proc from Caltrops alone, and not from other ground AoE DoTs, despite the fact that this change has hit AoE DoTs across the board. What often gets overlooked in this respect is that most NB tanks didn't turn to Caltrops for a cheap way of managing resources - they turned to Caltrops for an answer to the lack of class CC. Currently NBs' only true AoE CC (that isn't an ultimate) is Fear, and this is only useful if the enemies are rooted in place, or if the tank takes the time and resources to fear mobs into a particular direction, which is highly inefficient.

The high upfront cost of caltrops turned it into an investment - i.e. spend stamina now, to gain magicka & stamina later. Depending on the size of the pull, caltrops was a poor investment option, that is, if there weren't enough enemies, then using caltrops was a waste of resources and the caster did not ever truly have the potential to recover them. NB tanks were willing to accommodate this trade-off by knowing when to cast it, and when to rely on other abilities. Regardless of the tradeoff, however, caltrops was a utility skill which cannot be justified in any foreseeable scenario without the potential for resource gain. It's cost is simply too high to justify (in most NB tank builds, you're looking at 1/3 of max stamina upfront to cast) for tanking with this change.

What does this mean for NB tanks? Assuming the current intended modification to SA is to remain when the TG update hits Live, it means turning to other sources of resource management. If NB tanks weren't already running magicka/stamina recovery glyphs on jewelry, it is all but completely necessary to do so now. Gear combinations will shift into options that are less favorable for the entire group, not just the tank. Why is it less beneficial for the group? Because a tank that can't keep his/her own resources in check is a liability, not an asset. Furthermore, the removal of resource gain potential on SA forces NB tanks to pursue options that tanks from other classes would typically accommodate more easily. For example, many NB tanks will now turn to Engine Guardian (just like the majority of other tanks in ESO) which means sacrificing a 5set gear bonus for a 2set/3set combination, which typically is less optimal.

The current state of ESO is one that caters to tank-less groups already, save for trials. Prior to this update, NB tanks were of great benefit to their groups, providing a substantial amount of damage or healing alongside of holding aggro, or at very least NB self-sustain enabled the other group members to branch out, like allowing the healer to dps in certain circumstances. In a virtual world where high, fast damage is becoming a more prominent requirement for all forms of content, the nature of this situation is quite troubling.

I needn't elaborate on the potential adjustments that would make this more reasonable, as it's pretty much all been covered already in the OP, and in other discussions. The release of this information coming in the TG update has put a lot of NB tanks into the mindset that they must, once again, relearn their entire class. This wouldn't necessarily be the case if another NB skill had been given the nerfhammer instead, but SA is a critical component to NB tanking, and sustaining resources is going to be much more difficult. I anticipate that this change will create a "barrier to entry" for many who have never tried NB tanking, or are just getting around it, as they will lack the experience necessary to accommodate this change. Furthermore, the SA mechanic provided something, albeit subjective, to NB tanking that is all but removed alongside of the proc chance - enjoyment. Many of the players who enjoyed NB tanking will no longer enjoy it, and thus the quantity of people performing in this role will diminish, leaving NBs in an underdog status that is more pronounced now than it ever has been before.

hrothbern

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

I think that fundamentally the NB Siphoning Tank suffers from sharing abilities with the NB DPS builds.

Good resources was the strong point of the NB Tank, but cutting down resources of the NB DPS build also affects (heavily) the NB Siphoning Tank.

The analysis of @ThatNeonZebraAgain sums up very wel the collateral damage we suffer now.

Our basic 15 second buff rotation as tank includes now the taunt, SA & a shadow ability for the Armor buff (BTW that buff only last long enough when you have 5-7 HA).
Not much left to proc SA enough to get Magicka and Stamina after the TG nerfs on semi-DOT's.
No class defense for the Siphoning Tank (Cloack cannot be done because you lose the taunt !)

Besides the suggestions of @ThatNeonZebraAgain, what would also help the NB Tank is when Summon Shades (and Morphs) would count as a Taunt !!!
That does not strengthen the NB DPS,
but it does save the NB Tank casting an ability every 15 seconds.

They made Siphoning Attacks a DPS ability when they removed the toggle and damage debuff. Removing toggles now seems like part of their larger combat consistency plan, so that change makes a bit more sense in that context. However, the damage penalty is what kept it a tanking ability, and thus out of the hands of builds that prompt reactionary over-nerfs. The other morph of Siphoning is still useless, so perhaps they could rework that specifically for tanks.

Yes
There are more ways to solve the issue the NB Tanks face now.

Essential is that something will be changed to the benefit of NB Tanks that is not strenghtening the NB DPS.
SA is, as you suggest, also an ability where you can offer the DPS direction and the Tank direction.

Key is that ZOS recognises and acknowledges the need for a buff of the Siphoning NB Tank.

Gahmerdohn

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

ZOS only cares about DPS, now.... Maelstrom Arena proves it. If you can't burn stuff down fast enough, you don't deserve to live, according to the devs!

Everything has been said...

I've been a DD most of time in MMOs with some tank alts but in EsO tanking is what i'm enjoying the most
especially the NB .

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

Siphoning Attacks has always been the bread and butter for NB tanks, who themselves have been the persistent tanking underdog.

just give us some love and we'll be fine even it's not through SA. I'm not saying the they should be as good as DK but don't work at making them useless either.

ninjaguyman

Has zos acknowledged anywhere that they were looking into SA changes or are we still just hoping?

ThatNeonZebraAgain

ninjaguyman wrote: »

Has zos acknowledged anywhere that they were looking into SA changes or are we still just hoping?

Hoping. They've been pretty quiet on the PTS forum so far.

andy_s

SA definetely got a big nerf, so instead of throwing caltrops now you have to spam some skills that proc SA. I didn't test much, but this can be an example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QISx7HNxqkM

lonewolf26

@Wrobel please give us some insight into your proposed changes to siphoning attacks. As it stands on the PTS, this cripples nightblade tanking builds significantly.

ThatNeonZebraAgain

andy.s wrote: »

SA definetely got a big nerf, so instead of throwing caltrops now you have to spam some skills that proc SA. I didn't test much, but this can be an example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QISx7HNxqkM

Like I said in the OP, Sap Essence (and animation canceling) still works well with SA. The player in that video is hitting 20+ mobs, so of course SA is going to proc like mad (that person is also using Engine Guardian, and it's also not clear if the Bahraha 5pc bonus procs SA, but I'd assume no).However, that won't work on long boss fights where there aren't adds or they are spread out.

Personofsecrets

Best of luck @ThatNeonZebraAgain , I'll summon @ZOS_RichLambert for you.

code65536

andy.s wrote: »

SA definetely got a big nerf, so instead of throwing caltrops now you have to spam some skills that proc SA. I didn't test much, but this can be an example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QISx7HNxqkM

This is a very poor example because of the extreme mob density. Beyond a certain point, you can have enough mobs that Sap becomes free. But this generally doesn't happen outside of contrived demonstrations such as this. In 99% of the fights, you do not have enough density to sustain Sap like that. Plus, this is nWGT, not vWGT; had it been vWGT, the player would be dead.

Try sustaining your resources in Maw, during those large fights with the bannermen. The mob density is substantially lower, and if you were to get them bunched together, it'll be death for you because of the multitude of AoEs and abilities that they have.

helediron

I am tanking end content with NB and completely agree and support the OP. My suggestion is to double the ability chance to 20%. The ability proc is what matters to tanks. DDs use mostly the light attack for resource gains.

Samphaa

I hope we get some recognition soon as to whether or not this is being looked at. Something needs to be done, this is such a hard hitting nerf to resource management whilst tanking.

Sneakles

Absolutely agree with the OP. SA needs to be tweaked in a more intricate way rather than such a hard hitting nerf. I have shelved my NB tank since Imperial City due to the changes to SA, as I found the utility on a Templar tank by FAR outweigh any benefits a NB tank might bring to the table, not to mention they are much better at single target resource management (that's right, a Templar is outclassing a NB in resource management).

With each DLC since then I find myself hoping that the changes to NB SA will make them viable again as a top tier tank, and with each DLC it seems to somehow get worse and worse. I just don't understand, Zenimax. NB tanks weren't at all overpowered before this change (certainly not, when compared to DK and Templar resource returns and utility), and yet you specifically chose to lower the one thing that made NB tanks unique and competitive as tanks.

Please consider making a more balanced change to this skill. It's what makes NB tanks worth it.

ThatNeonZebraAgain

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Bfish22090 wrote: »

no changes to any of the balance issues that were modified in the original update?
looks like the changes we got last week will be here to stay until it goes live

We'll be making some balance changes to abilities in the next incremental (next week) to address some feedback we've seen, and plan on making a forum thread about it in the next day or so you loop you guys in.

Hopefully we get some positive changes. More feedback on SA would be appreciated though, so keep it coming NBs!

Edziu

SA not only for tanks!!

I'm playing nb dps...for max possible dps and I have getting very good possible dps on my class on melee...but I have this problem...for this very good dps I need weapon dmg enchants etc, none to regen from sets, items, max health and stamina food, not playing as bosmer with cap cp I have hardly 900 stam regen...so low, I remember these days when SA was wonderfull before this nerf to restore flat amoun stamina and magica...for what the hell I need these 1k magice resto per light attakc?!?!?! and also this 1k resto stam per light atack isnt enough, when I spamming main dps skill with light attacks I see when it is some restoring but not to much, only this crap proc with restore 1.9k stam is some helping but also not much, I need to use pots for stam reg, while buffing etc, in old days when siphoning was restiring % of max stam/mag I dont has any problem with resources when DPS'ing

and this 15 sec buff duration..seriously???? I must using some buffs...1 for 20 sec, 1 30 sec, 2 for 15 sec (with sipho)

its annyoing...i must keeping buffs in half of f*****g fight!! I want to use maybe 2-3 buff for 30 secs and 1 for this 20 or also for 15 sec...but only 1

I need to keep nonstop rearming trap, sipho, relentless focus, rally(I dont want to use alwayst buffs pots)

relentless foucs...ok, rearming trap, ok, but also next sipho attacks for *** 15 secs?? this is *** not buff...this skill got much nerf but is on this minimum minimum to use ite for this fu****g 15 secs than just use drink for stam regen -.-

I can do 25k max to averge 30k dps on croco in WGT keeping *** 15 sec buffs when my friends on sorcs need only 1-2 buffs for 30 sec and getting 30k dps easily up to 40k with ulti, and for dps without ulti they dont need to keeping crap buffs for 15 secs, just 1 normally magica potion to restore magica and thats all, they dont need to keep toons of buffs and casting then in half of fight time, they dont need to much care about resources to dps...when I forget about sipho for around 10 secs(skill missclick, lag, just to fast wanted to swich weapon for back to dpsing) i dont have then stamina or very low.....when I use then sipho I need to wait 30+- secs dpsing with light attacks to get again my stamina into half of max

also for pvp...better is now drink...this crap 15 second of sipho attacks for dps I a f****g joke, its godd only for dules but also not to good...with drink active in this moment....try to doing/cut animations with light attcks in deal, in normal pvp when you need more to avoiding attack or block to wreck blow or other cc skills, break free etc....only not worth 1k stam return per light attcks when you losing morein this dps and healing, avoidng attcks....this is not good with mobility in pvp fights when its not easy to do this light attack when fighting with good player

thinking also some about use food with max health and stam reg for pve...I think for dps it be very very much better to keep stamina thank not worth nerfed with *** duration skill, maybe lower damage...but stamina stability to have it etc, no any problems to keep this on normal level

htarnnub17_ESO

I'm optimistic about the Siphoning Attacks tweaks they've announced. Laying down a Path and having solid stamina regen was great, but if we have to lose that and Siphoning Attacks instead restores a bigger burst of resources then I could see it balancing out. The important part is that skills still proc SA, so we can get some amount of stamina back while blocking.

But I don't understand who the Leeching Stikes changes are for. NB DPS doesn't want this ability, they don't want to reduce their damage and they don't care about the healing it offers. NB tanks don't really want this ability, we need SA to recover stamina. And we don't want to spam light attacks. Blocking is important. I'm pretty sure most of us are Magicka-based for the benefits to our healing and damage so our stamina pool is lower. But Leeching Strikes scales off the size of your resource pool. So using Leeching Strikes over SA means less time spent blocking and fewer dodge rolls.

Leeching Srikes heals a certain amount and apparently it will heal more soon, but we NB tanks have many ways to recover health while there's only one way to recover stamina while blocking. Unless spamming light attacks with LS is supposed to restore enough health that we don't care about blocking, this is a bad path to take with the skill. Leeching Strikes either needs to work with skills, restore several times as much stamina, or become something entirely different for it to become attractive to NB tanks.

Therium104

Try resource mgmt as a DK tank. Stop crying. It is insane how much ZOS has baby NB.

Miwerton

Well SA was very usefull before IC on a dps, you just had to use it on the aoe bar.
But yeah The flat regain rather than percentage has made it really weak, plus with the removal of regain from dots they should at least have given it buff. Leeching strikes really isnt that good since it mean slitgthly lower spell dam and weap dam, which means weaker swallow soul/ vigor and refreshing path.

Got a cool idea, make summon shadows able to get you regain from SA if active or Leeching strikes, would make shadows viable, and How cool would it be to tank while your shadow minions kept your ressources up.

And Btw Temp tank get regain from repentance, and some bonus from its cost reduction, Dk tank have earthen hearth and ultimates regain, while Nb tanks only have Siphon attacks for regain, and earthen hearth give percentage regain and not flat regain unlike SA.

WolfingHour

Therium104 wrote: »

Try resource mgmt as a DK tank. Stop crying. It is insane how much ZOS has baby NB.

Try calling for buffs for your class. Earthen heart passive is terrible. Repentance and dark are even worst.

Thinking of a build starting with "what am I going to pair with engine guardian this time?" is not a good state of affairs.

Miwerton

WolfingHour wrote: »

Therium104 wrote: »

Try resource mgmt as a DK tank. Stop crying. It is insane how much ZOS has baby NB.

Try calling for buffs for your class. Earthen heart passive is terrible. Repentance and dark are even worst.

Thinking of a build starting with "what am I going to pair with engine guardian this time?" is not a good state of affairs.

Here is a suggestion, head over to http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/225175/heavy-armor-needs-buffed-already/p7 and make some noise about heavy armor overall buffs.

Samphaa

Miwerton wrote: »

Well SA was very usefull before IC on a dps, you just had to use it on the aoe bar.
But yeah The flat regain rather than percentage has made it really weak, plus with the removal of regain from dots they should at least have given it buff. Leeching strikes really isnt that good since it mean slitgthly lower spell dam and weap dam, which means weaker swallow soul/ vigor and refreshing path.

Got a cool idea, make summon shadows able to get you regain from SA if active or Leeching strikes, would make shadows viable, and How cool would it be to tank while your shadow minions kept your ressources up.

And Btw Temp tank get regain from repentance, and some bonus from its cost reduction, Dk tank have earthen hearth and ultimates regain, while Nb tanks only have Siphon attacks for regain, and earthen hearth give percentage regain and not flat regain unlike SA.

Shadows are viable anyway dude, reduce boss damage by 15%, but yeah if they could get your resources back aswell it would be super cool.

hrothbern

.

Samphaa wrote: »

Miwerton wrote: »

Well SA was very usefull before IC on a dps, you just had to use it on the aoe bar.
But yeah The flat regain rather than percentage has made it really weak, plus with the removal of regain from dots they should at least have given it buff. Leeching strikes really isnt that good since it mean slitgthly lower spell dam and weap dam, which means weaker swallow soul/ vigor and refreshing path.

Got a cool idea, make summon shadows able to get you regain from SA if active or Leeching strikes, would make shadows viable, and How cool would it be to tank while your shadow minions kept your ressources up.

And Btw Temp tank get regain from repentance, and some bonus from its cost reduction, Dk tank have earthen hearth and ultimates regain, while Nb tanks only have Siphon attacks for regain, and earthen hearth give percentage regain and not flat regain unlike SA.

Shadows are viable anyway dude, reduce boss damage by 15%, but yeah if they could get your resources back aswell it would be super cool.

Cool indeed
But the summon shades's damage is treated like a DOT.

But if the Summon Shades would also taunt the Boss.. we get the savings of not casting the normal taunt anymore and free up a slot

Miwerton

hrothbern wrote: »

.

Samphaa wrote: »

Miwerton wrote: »

Well SA was very usefull before IC on a dps, you just had to use it on the aoe bar.
But yeah The flat regain rather than percentage has made it really weak, plus with the removal of regain from dots they should at least have given it buff. Leeching strikes really isnt that good since it mean slitgthly lower spell dam and weap dam, which means weaker swallow soul/ vigor and refreshing path.

Got a cool idea, make summon shadows able to get you regain from SA if active or Leeching strikes, would make shadows viable, and How cool would it be to tank while your shadow minions kept your ressources up.

And Btw Temp tank get regain from repentance, and some bonus from its cost reduction, Dk tank have earthen hearth and ultimates regain, while Nb tanks only have Siphon attacks for regain, and earthen hearth give percentage regain and not flat regain unlike SA.

Shadows are viable anyway dude, reduce boss damage by 15%, but yeah if they could get your resources back aswell it would be super cool.

Cool indeed
But the summon shades's damage is treated like a DOT.

But if the Summon Shades would also taunt the Boss.. we get the savings of not casting the normal taunt anymore and free up a slot

Summon shades arent treated as a dot, tested it with Skoria set, didnt trigger it, they are seen as npcs that uses ligth attacks that cant be attacked, did some testing with it http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/208831/the-still-useless-summon-shade#latest and havent seen any patch notes stating any fixes to it.