what I got from that is horizontal progression is to you unlocking new skills as long as they are balanced these provide options without necessarily increasing power.
Unfortunately English isn´t my native language which made it somewhat difficult to get my point across in Gidorick´s thread.
Good examples of horizontal progression are TSW (their entire skill system) or the alternate advancement system present in EQ and EQ2. The champion system is ESO, while actually vertical progression, appears to have been intended as a mix of vertical and horizontal progression.
what I got from that is horizontal progression is to you unlocking new skills as long as they are balanced these provide options without necessarily increasing power.
Yea, mainly horizontal progression is different from game to game, but the general idea is that you continue to improve your character not through arbitrary number gains (+100 to my chest piece! +5 to my gloves! OH BOY!) but rather through things like new skills or mutations, new weapons choices, etc. It can also include other, non-combat oriented, rewards like new armor, new mounts, player housing and rewards for that, etc etc.
The goal is to replace 1 carrot (bigger numbers for the sake of having bigger numbers) with lots of rewards to keep the game interesting without any possibility of power creep being introduced. It also creates a game where player skill == skill, and not stats == skill or seniority == skill like systems such as the Champion Points, by keeping everyone on an even playing field.
Players who have been around longer continue to get better than new players, but they do so because they have played longer and are better as players; it's not a virtual "better" in that their character has a stat advantage and their opponent has a stat handicap, thus emulating the idea that they are "better".
CapnPhoton wrote: »So as an example?
You bought a skill trait that gives you more damaged to mobs at 20% or less health. The next bonus 10 levels later is for the same but its 25%.
what I got from that is horizontal progression is to you unlocking new skills as long as they are balanced these provide options without necessarily increasing power.
That's exactly what it is. It leads to 2 possible situations:
1. Not all skills are balanced. Then there is one superior build.
2. All skills are balanced. Then the content would have to be balanced in such a way that you succeed by using skills based on situation.
#2 is not a bad thing. In fact, we see it a lot in ESO. Tons of fights require you to switch around your skills and think about the mechanics. That's a good thing.
My biggest issue with having only horizontal progression in MMOs is that they (referring to actual MMO RPG's) are entirely founded upon the principle that your character progresses. It's the whole point of the game: to create a character and develop them. We often see this in the form of levels. All of that is taken away when all you have at end game is horizontal progression. You develop your character as you level and then it suddenly comes to a complete halt because there is no vertical progression at end game.
There needs to be a solid mix of both. WoW did not have this. All you got at end game was better gear to make the skills you've always had even stronger. GW2 didn't have any sort of treadmill. You simply unlock new builds with traits. ESO has a very nice balance between the two.
Unfortunately English isn´t my native language which made it somewhat difficult to get my point across in Gidorick´s thread.
Good examples of horizontal progression are TSW (their entire skill system) or the alternate advancement system present in EQ and EQ2. The champion system is ESO, while actually vertical progression, appears to have been intended as a mix of vertical and horizontal progression.
Unfortunately English isn´t my native language which made it somewhat difficult to get my point across in Gidorick´s thread.
Good examples of horizontal progression are TSW (their entire skill system) or the alternate advancement system present in EQ and EQ2. The champion system is ESO, while actually vertical progression, appears to have been intended as a mix of vertical and horizontal progression.
I would say Champion System is almost entirely vertical progression, but that's not a bad thing! There's more to end game progression in ESO than just the Champion System. There's gear sets, which offer options on roughly the same power level as well as skill points to expand and give more options with the way you build your character.
lordrichter wrote: »Nice write up. May I suggest that some editing be done to clean up the typographical and other errors?
what I got from that is horizontal progression is to you unlocking new skills as long as they are balanced these provide options without necessarily increasing power.
what I got from that is horizontal progression is to you unlocking new skills as long as they are balanced these provide options without necessarily increasing power.
See, I don't get that though. Look at Vigor. After taking a long time, you could open up a new skill, but then boatloads of people complained that it wasn't soon enough. So, either people complain he new skill is OP to have so far down the line.. OR.. you open up new skills that are not more powerful, but they why would you care about opening up that skill? I just don't get it I guess. I'll be keeping an eye on this thread.
Haven't had quite a chance to read your entire post Faugan, but I shall dig into it throughout the day
what I got from that is horizontal progression is to you unlocking new skills as long as they are balanced these provide options without necessarily increasing power.
See, I don't get that though. Look at Vigor. After taking a long time, you could open up a new skill, but then boatloads of people complained that it wasn't soon enough. So, either people complain he new skill is OP to have so far down the line.. OR.. you open up new skills that are not more powerful, but they why would you care about opening up that skill? I just don't get it I guess. I'll be keeping an eye on this thread.
Haven't had quite a chance to read your entire post Faugan, but I shall dig into it throughout the day
Thanks, yeah it's long (sorry it's like 10 pages double spaced 12 point font in word), let me try to clarify and provide answers to your problems.
So you take some time to open a new skill. That skill and all other skills should be balanced, this idea that a skill is good early on but not later and that it becomes obsolete is poor skill balance. In a perfectly balanced skill system (I've never seen one) every skill is equal to all other skills, but they do different functions so in a given situation one skill might be preferred over another but all skills are useful.
Consider a boss who has the following mechanics:
At 5 meters or less he cleaves you for 10,000 damage. (call this physical damage)
At 5-15 meters he jumps at you and stabs you for 10,000 damage (we will say it is fire damage)
At 15-25 meters he casts a spell at you causing 10,000 damage (call this a poison dot)
Consider a few different tanks:
A Argonian Werewolf DK
A Bosmer Vampire DK (poison resist racial)
A Dumner (that's the one with increased fire resist racial passive right?) DK
Consider 3 different taunts:
Melee taunt (5 meter range)
Mid-Range taunt (5-15 meter range)
Long-Range taunt (15+ meter range)
With all these different combinations of boss mechanics and tanks each one might prefer a different skill for their taunt.
The Argonian Werewolf would not want to be exposed to that poison and would perhaps choose the melee taunt relying on his heavy armor to mitigate the damage.
The Bosmer Vampire might actually prefer the poison DOT and thus choose the Long-Range Taunt
The Dunmer who is neither werewolf nor vampire but has additional fire resist my opt for fire damage over the physical or the poison, thus preferring the midrange taunt for the fight.
Each of these taunts are just a taunt, one is not op compared to the other but they provide different benefits for the tank using them based on the situation they are in. Sure the Argonian WW Dk might be able to glyph for poison resist and use the mid-range taunt and complete the fight just fine ...but now he cannot use other glyphs ....but if he unlocks a different taunt which prevents exposure to the poison damage suddenly he can use the glyphs for something else. This means that unlocking the skill is desirable (in some situations) even though it is not OP it is all about skill when building (and playing) your character and not about "this skill is +10% and this skill is +15%".
Hope that helps to clear things up for you?
maybe we gain 3 additional ability slots on our skill bar and we can use 1 thief, 1 mage and 1 warrior ability at a time.
There needs to be a good mix vertically and horizontally in order to make things interesting and have a sense of achievement. I think ESO currently does a good job at achieving both honestly. Maybe opening up a few more skill trees with other guilds being involved like dark brotherhood, thieves etc. Perhaps increasing the fighters and mages lines by having some sort of split and focusing on one side or the other between the two using specializations. .. any way to introduce new skill trees will support more horizontal progression and make the cp system less of a burden for those who don't enjoy the vertical progression as much.
what I got from that is horizontal progression is to you unlocking new skills as long as they are balanced these provide options without necessarily increasing power.
See, I don't get that though. Look at Vigor. After taking a long time, you could open up a new skill, but then boatloads of people complained that it wasn't soon enough. So, either people complain he new skill is OP to have so far down the line.. OR.. you open up new skills that are not more powerful, but they why would you care about opening up that skill? I just don't get it I guess. I'll be keeping an eye on this thread.
Haven't had quite a chance to read your entire post Faugan, but I shall dig into it throughout the day
Thanks, yeah it's long (sorry it's like 10 pages double spaced 12 point font in word), let me try to clarify and provide answers to your problems.
So you take some time to open a new skill. That skill and all other skills should be balanced, this idea that a skill is good early on but not later and that it becomes obsolete is poor skill balance. In a perfectly balanced skill system (I've never seen one) every skill is equal to all other skills, but they do different functions so in a given situation one skill might be preferred over another but all skills are useful.
Consider a boss who has the following mechanics:
At 5 meters or less he cleaves you for 10,000 damage. (call this physical damage)
At 5-15 meters he jumps at you and stabs you for 10,000 damage (we will say it is fire damage)
At 15-25 meters he casts a spell at you causing 10,000 damage (call this a poison dot)
Consider a few different tanks:
A Argonian Werewolf DK
A Bosmer Vampire DK (poison resist racial)
A Dumner (that's the one with increased fire resist racial passive right?) DK
Consider 3 different taunts:
Melee taunt (5 meter range)
Mid-Range taunt (5-15 meter range)
Long-Range taunt (15+ meter range)
With all these different combinations of boss mechanics and tanks each one might prefer a different skill for their taunt.
The Argonian Werewolf would not want to be exposed to that poison and would perhaps choose the melee taunt relying on his heavy armor to mitigate the damage.
The Bosmer Vampire might actually prefer the poison DOT and thus choose the Long-Range Taunt
The Dunmer who is neither werewolf nor vampire but has additional fire resist my opt for fire damage over the physical or the poison, thus preferring the midrange taunt for the fight.
Each of these taunts are just a taunt, one is not op compared to the other but they provide different benefits for the tank using them based on the situation they are in. Sure the Argonian WW Dk might be able to glyph for poison resist and use the mid-range taunt and complete the fight just fine ...but now he cannot use other glyphs ....but if he unlocks a different taunt which prevents exposure to the poison damage suddenly he can use the glyphs for something else. This means that unlocking the skill is desirable (in some situations) even though it is not OP it is all about skill when building (and playing) your character and not about "this skill is +10% and this skill is +15%".
Hope that helps to clear things up for you?
That's perfect, and as you were typing I typed in an edit to my post as well
I actually think that's a much better example versus the one you used in the original article. The whole time I was thinking "But if I'm stealthed I prefer more damage, but then the entire rest of this fight I'm stuck with this skill that takes 3 seconds to cast!" lol
maybe we gain 3 additional ability slots on our skill bar and we can use 1 thief, 1 mage and 1 warrior ability at a time.
This has been suggested by @Rune_Relic and the suggestion quoted in a couple threads discussing the CS. I believe it is a good idea, as someone with (for illustrative purposes) 1000 CP will have more options than someone with 400 CP, but both will have enough to use all 3 slots, making them equal in power.
Which brings in the catch-up mechanic mentioned by ZOS: reducing the XP required for the first 300 or so CP. Under the suggestion above, making the first 300 CP easy to obtain grants all players the opportunity to max out 1 star under each group of constellations. CP after the first 300 will only add more options rather than increase the character's power.
well, to define vertical versus horizontal progression in pure ESO terms:
The champion system is pure vertical progression: the more CP you get, the stronger you are.
Yes, there is "choice" in where to invest your points first, but that is trumped by the goal of simply having everything to be strongest.
The actuall skill system, in contrast, is mostly horizontal progression with only a mild dose of vertical progression: oncy you have a total of 10 skills and 2 ultimates, everything more just gives you more options - but you can't use them all at the same time. Hence having more skills unlocked gives more options, but it does not make you "stronger" per se - it makes you more flexible, more adaptable, better able to build exactly for the situation you intend to face.
So ESOs mostly horizontal skill system makes you "stronger" by allowing you to customize for the situation at hand, not by simply making every number bigger.
(the part where you level up individual skills, morph them, then level them up again - that's the vertical part of the system. But the skill leveling effects are not that huge, in the grand scheme of things)
The big irony here, of course, is that ESO already had a brilliant horizontal progression system - it's skill system.
Then Zenimax set out to replace (the hated) veteran-rank vertical system with an alternative horizontal "endless progression" system called Champion system - which ends up just as vertical as veteran ranks. Even though we KNOW they can build good horizontal systems - they've done so already
yes the basic problem is not verticality per se as I think some verticality is needed to create challange ie a harder boss requiring you to get better gear or more levels. The problem is the system is capped horizontally with skill point cap and for all intents and purposes uncapped vertically.
Lord Xanhorn wrote: »The problem with horitonal progression is there are no goals since the objectives stay the same. If I fight boss A with skills 12345 and then i horizontally progress to skills 56789, I am still fighting Boss A at the same strength and power just using different abilities. That is very boring to me since I already fought and beat boss A with skills 12345.
Here's a link to @Rune_Relic idea. Let me know anyone if there are any "updated/changed" versions elsewhere though
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/190525/best-idea-for-cs-gap-problem-thx-to-rune-relic
Lord Xanhorn wrote: »The problem with horitonal progression is there are no goals since the objectives stay the same. If I fight boss A with skills 12345 and then i horizontally progress to skills 56789, I am still fighting Boss A at the same strength and power just using different abilities. That is very boring to me since I already fought and beat boss A with skills 12345.
There needs to be a good mix vertically and horizontally in order to make things interesting and have a sense of achievement. I think ESO currently does a good job at achieving both honestly. Maybe opening up a few more skill trees with other guilds being involved like dark brotherhood, thieves etc. Perhaps increasing the fighters and mages lines by having some sort of split and focusing on one side or the other between the two using specializations. .. any way to introduce new skill trees will support more horizontal progression and make the cp system less of a burden for those who don't enjoy the vertical progression as much.
The problem with the champion system is not that it's vertical it's the power creep associated with its implementation. Currently we are 3 months (??) into it's implementation. There are players approaching if not past 1000 CP this is a huge advantage both in trials and in pvp (two of the major end-game competitive activities). The people with these large CP caches are literally winning just because they grind more CP and thus are more powerful and can thus do trials faster and fight in pvp more effectively. Ok fast forward to a year from now....the first hardcore grinder is at 3600 CP and a new player joins ...as soon as that player sees that at his casual pace (100 cp per month, that's almost a vet rank (900k exp per day) ) it will take 3 years in order to be competitive and on equal ground as the guy who is already there...what do you want to bet that player says screw this and goes to find a different game to play?
One thing I always think is how can a developer justify Vertical progression, ya it been around since dirt, think about it though.
There comes a point where everything except the last bit of added content is worthless from a customers point of view. As a player why should I want to go do, for example the daily's in a previous level cap area that pay most likely 50-75% less in game money, when I can do the new ones for more rewards.
New armor and new weapons and new stuff is always nice but at what cost? Why can we not how nice things, for everyone?
Another game I play just added a new tier of armor and weapons, making everything below that tier obsolete.
Perhaps retention rates for player would increase if the new tier of gear was a cosmetic item or a selection of cosmetic items so that everyone completing that content wouldn't look just like everyone else that completed that content.
Would not the content team then be more available to create new content due to the fact they didn't have to rebalanced the entire game around the new tier of gear every time new content was released?