What is horizontal progression?

Jar_Ek · July 2015

Look at the secret world for an example of horizontal progression. The skill wheel is a form of horizontal progression in that the different skill lines are not inherently more powerful. Power in that game comes from gear generally.

Arreyanne · July 2015

MCMancub wrote: »

Arreyanne wrote: »

One thing I always think is how can a developer justify Vertical progression, ya it been around since dirt, think about it though.

There comes a point where everything except the last bit of added content is worthless from a customers point of view. As a player why should I want to go do, for example the daily's in a previous level cap area that pay most likely 50-75% less in game money, when I can do the new ones for more rewards.

New armor and new weapons and new stuff is always nice but at what cost? Why can we not how nice things, for everyone?

Another game I play just added a new tier of armor and weapons, making everything below that tier obsolete.

Perhaps retention rates for player would increase if the new tier of gear was a cosmetic item or a selection of cosmetic items so that everyone completing that content wouldn't look just like everyone else that completed that content.

Would not the content team then be more available to create new content due to the fact they didn't have to rebalanced the entire game around the new tier of gear every time new content was released?

The game you're looking for is called Guild Wars 2. And no one plays it because all there is to do is get new costumes.

Nah done that been there, ewwwwww. And it had nothing to do with cosmetic items

And they didn't even get the part right where lvl cap can go back and do lower areas with rewards. As there is no challenge in doing that. I find that game just as boring as this one for different reasons which I won't elaborate on as no one cares but me.

And sooner or later you either raid in a vertical progression game or you move to something new

Rune_Relic · July 2015

Horizontal progression is making your character more and more focused (powerful in one area at the expense of another)
Vertical progression is making your character more powerful versus others.

Lets take amour sets with 5 pc bonuses.
The armour itself increases stats so you instinctively think its vertical progression...but...
There is a variety of armour to choose from..... and limited selection...making it horizontal

A DPS character probably would ignore all +armour based options in favour of weapon damage.
A healer might take the increased healing taken gear rather than the weapon damage gear.
Forcing people to focus in some areas at the expense of others.
These armour options favour unique builds and enhance the character specialisation and uniqueness.
But they should be balanced in a way that counters each other.
So I have become more unique vs others....but not overall more powerful than others.
eg. The weapon damage magnitude is generally countered by the increased armour magnitude on the armour sets.

Provided everything is balanced properly ...its horizontal progression that lets you ...play as you want.
Become a better tank or a better healer or a better DPS.

Lord Xanhorn · July 2015

MCMancub wrote: »

This is NOT the way horizontal progression is supposed to be, and we certainly don't see it this way in ESO.

You fight Boss A with skills 12345 because skills 56789 don't work as effectively. Conversely, you fight Boss B with skills 56789 because skills 12345 don't work as effectively. THAT is horizontal progression.

That doesn't sound all that fun cause you are still progressing to Boss B just with a different set of tools. I think about the original Zelda game where you went into castle 1 to get the candle which let you go into to castle 2 to get the flute then the power glove, then the hammer and so on. This was just different tools that allowed you to see the next content.

So whether the tools come vertically or horizontally, its still the same thing. skills 56789 are still needed for boss B.

I just happen to think vertical progression is better cause you can progress onto the next boss with crappier gear if you have skill rather than being forced to not progress until you got some special trinket or gadget that allowed you to get past some artificial block.

Faugaun · July 2015

MCMancub wrote: »

Lord Xanhorn wrote: »

The problem with horitonal progression is there are no goals since the objectives stay the same. If I fight boss A with skills 12345 and then i horizontally progress to skills 56789, I am still fighting Boss A at the same strength and power just using different abilities. That is very boring to me since I already fought and beat boss A with skills 12345.

This is NOT the way horizontal progression is supposed to be, and we certainly don't see it this way in ESO.

You fight Boss A with skills 12345 because skills 56789 don't work as effectively. Conversely, you fight Boss B with skills 56789 because skills 12345 don't work as effectively. THAT is horizontal progression.

Faugaun wrote: »

Athas24 wrote: »

There needs to be a good mix vertically and horizontally in order to make things interesting and have a sense of achievement. I think ESO currently does a good job at achieving both honestly. Maybe opening up a few more skill trees with other guilds being involved like dark brotherhood, thieves etc. Perhaps increasing the fighters and mages lines by having some sort of split and focusing on one side or the other between the two using specializations. .. any way to introduce new skill trees will support more horizontal progression and make the cp system less of a burden for those who don't enjoy the vertical progression as much.

The problem with the champion system is not that it's vertical it's the power creep associated with its implementation. Currently we are 3 months (??) into it's implementation. There are players approaching if not past 1000 CP this is a huge advantage both in trials and in pvp (two of the major end-game competitive activities). The people with these large CP caches are literally winning just because they grind more CP and thus are more powerful and can thus do trials faster and fight in pvp more effectively. Ok fast forward to a year from now....the first hardcore grinder is at 3600 CP and a new player joins ...as soon as that player sees that at his casual pace (100 cp per month, that's almost a vet rank (900k exp per day) ) it will take 3 years in order to be competitive and on equal ground as the guy who is already there...what do you want to bet that player says screw this and goes to find a different game to play?

I get what you're saying here, but it's still not right. Don't get me wrong, the Champion System has issues, but they don't stem from the fact that it's vertical and not horizontal. The system itself is fine. The implementation is not. That's the problem. There's nothing wrong with the power creep or the incredibly high cap. Nothing at all. The problem lies in the environment. It's an untamed beast right now, but in the right setting it's an excellent system.

here's what I said:

The problem with the champion system is not that it's vertical it's the power creep associated with its implementation. Currently we are 3 months (??) into it's implementation.

So we agree vertical is not the problem necessarily and that the implementation does have a problem. Now I think the power creep is a huge problem that will result in population dwindle...you think it's more environmentally problematic... I disagree on that point... but that's ok we can have different views. I think we are observing the same symptoms but making widely different future predictions.

Xjcon wrote: »

I didn't read all the way through the op, not saying it's a bad idea or a good one from what I did read.

Why reinvent the wheel at this point tho, isn't that what has happened to other games, look at WoW it evolved after every expansion and at some point it wasn't what I wanted to play anymore so I moved on.

Eso is a unique mmo, it has some issues what game doesnt. my question is why do so many want to change it so much?

Pre 1.6 was IMO sooooo much better, but even then when we didn't have CP people made threads like this wanting to totally redesign the game for them.

So, I don't think I have pushed for a change in this thread at all ? The reason for concern IMHO is that if the game becomes unfriendly for new people then it will die a slow death (like a plant without water) and I personally want to see it thrive.

Arreyanne wrote: »

One thing I always think is how can a developer justify Vertical progression, ya it been around since dirt, think about it though.

There comes a point where everything except the last bit of added content is worthless from a customers point of view. As a player why should I want to go do, for example the daily's in a previous level cap area that pay most likely 50-75% less in game money, when I can do the new ones for more rewards.

New armor and new weapons and new stuff is always nice but at what cost? Why can we not how nice things, for everyone?

Another game I play just added a new tier of armor and weapons, making everything below that tier obsolete.

Perhaps retention rates for player would increase if the new tier of gear was a cosmetic item or a selection of cosmetic items so that everyone completing that content wouldn't look just like everyone else that completed that content.

Would not the content team then be more available to create new content due to the fact they didn't have to rebalanced the entire game around the new tier of gear every time new content was released?

This is a great question @ZOS_GinaBruno and @ZOS_JessicaFolsom How can a developer justify vertical progression? Can we get that in the next ESO live? I mean really:

I am Zenimax or Blizzard or Trion etc...
I spend time and effort to create beautiful and fun content
Players like the content
I am happy and move on to my next project
I release new content and increase the level cap making my old content obsolete (because it rewards less, gives less exp, my character is too strong for the content....etc....
The new content is played and the old content is ignored by players because it is no longer relevant

Where does the developer benefit by making their own hard work obsolete?

From a player's perspective it seems like a lot of content is just sent to the curb....what's worse? The players who join after that content is sent to the curb never get to appreciate the content as challenging fun and end level stuff!

I don't see how anybody benefits from content becoming obsolete due to vertical progression....

Now in ZoS's defense they are doing scaling dungeons and delves which hopefully mitigate the obsolete aspect to some extent.

Jar_Ek wrote: »

Look at the secret world for an example of horizontal progression. The skill wheel is a form of horizontal progression in that the different skill lines are not inherently more powerful. Power in that game comes from gear generally.

Agree, The Secret World got horizontal progression right. Nailed it completely. The repeatable quests system they used also nailed the target as well.

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Horizontal progression is making your character more and more focused (powerful in one area at the expense of another)
Vertical progression is making your character more powerful versus others.

Lets take amour sets with 5 pc bonuses.
The armour itself increases stats so you instinctively think its vertical progression...but...
There is a variety of armour to choose from..... and limited selection...making it horizontal

A DPS character probably would ignore all +armour based options in favour of weapon damage.
A healer might take the increased healing taken gear rather than the weapon damage gear.
Forcing people to focus in some areas at the expense of others.
These armour options favour unique builds and enhance the character specialisation and uniqueness.
But they should be balanced in a way that counters each other.
So I have become more unique vs others....but not overall more powerful than others.
eg. The weapon damage magnitude is generally countered by the increased armour magnitude on the armour sets.

Provided everything is balanced properly ...its horizontal progression that lets you ...play as you want.
Become a better tank or a better healer or a better DPS.

Thanks @Rune_Relic nice idea about skills in your other thread!

white/green/blue/purple/yellow = vertical progression
vr1, vr2, vr3, ...vr11, vr12,vr13,vr14 gear requirements typically results in further vertical progression.

The rest of your post I agree The 5-piece sets are a form of horizontal progression and if properly balanced create (rather than remove) options. As you stated I agree

Provided everything is balanced properly ...its horizontal progression that lets you ...play as you want.

Tolmos · July 2015

Man... some really weird definitions of horizontal progression here.

I mean, at the end of the day, you can just look at the name, right? Vertical progression implies you get more powerful. Horizontal progression implies you get more versatile, more options. Whether those options are combat oriented, aesthetic oriented, craft oriented, whatever. You get rewarded in ways outside of simply getting the numbers on your character sheet to tick up +100 every once in a while.

A lot of FPS games do a good job in this regard, especially making it feel rewarding. MMO developers have been struggling massively to find a way to do it... and that's part of why the genre is slowly waning.

Done right, it can be infinitely more fun and rewarding than vertical progression, and far less frustrating.

Rune_Relic · July 2015

Faugaun wrote: »

MCMancub wrote: »

Lord Xanhorn wrote: »

The problem with horitonal progression is there are no goals since the objectives stay the same. If I fight boss A with skills 12345 and then i horizontally progress to skills 56789, I am still fighting Boss A at the same strength and power just using different abilities. That is very boring to me since I already fought and beat boss A with skills 12345.

This is NOT the way horizontal progression is supposed to be, and we certainly don't see it this way in ESO.

You fight Boss A with skills 12345 because skills 56789 don't work as effectively. Conversely, you fight Boss B with skills 56789 because skills 12345 don't work as effectively. THAT is horizontal progression.

Faugaun wrote: »

Athas24 wrote: »

There needs to be a good mix vertically and horizontally in order to make things interesting and have a sense of achievement. I think ESO currently does a good job at achieving both honestly. Maybe opening up a few more skill trees with other guilds being involved like dark brotherhood, thieves etc. Perhaps increasing the fighters and mages lines by having some sort of split and focusing on one side or the other between the two using specializations. .. any way to introduce new skill trees will support more horizontal progression and make the cp system less of a burden for those who don't enjoy the vertical progression as much.

The problem with the champion system is not that it's vertical it's the power creep associated with its implementation. Currently we are 3 months (??) into it's implementation. There are players approaching if not past 1000 CP this is a huge advantage both in trials and in pvp (two of the major end-game competitive activities). The people with these large CP caches are literally winning just because they grind more CP and thus are more powerful and can thus do trials faster and fight in pvp more effectively. Ok fast forward to a year from now....the first hardcore grinder is at 3600 CP and a new player joins ...as soon as that player sees that at his casual pace (100 cp per month, that's almost a vet rank (900k exp per day) ) it will take 3 years in order to be competitive and on equal ground as the guy who is already there...what do you want to bet that player says screw this and goes to find a different game to play?

I get what you're saying here, but it's still not right. Don't get me wrong, the Champion System has issues, but they don't stem from the fact that it's vertical and not horizontal. The system itself is fine. The implementation is not. That's the problem. There's nothing wrong with the power creep or the incredibly high cap. Nothing at all. The problem lies in the environment. It's an untamed beast right now, but in the right setting it's an excellent system.

here's what I said:

The problem with the champion system is not that it's vertical it's the power creep associated with its implementation. Currently we are 3 months (??) into it's implementation.

So we agree vertical is not the problem necessarily and that the implementation does have a problem. Now I think the power creep is a huge problem that will result in population dwindle...you think it's more environmentally problematic... I disagree on that point... but that's ok we can have different views. I think we are observing the same symptoms but making widely different future predictions.

Xjcon wrote: »

I didn't read all the way through the op, not saying it's a bad idea or a good one from what I did read.

Why reinvent the wheel at this point tho, isn't that what has happened to other games, look at WoW it evolved after every expansion and at some point it wasn't what I wanted to play anymore so I moved on.

Eso is a unique mmo, it has some issues what game doesnt. my question is why do so many want to change it so much?

Pre 1.6 was IMO sooooo much better, but even then when we didn't have CP people made threads like this wanting to totally redesign the game for them.

So, I don't think I have pushed for a change in this thread at all ? The reason for concern IMHO is that if the game becomes unfriendly for new people then it will die a slow death (like a plant without water) and I personally want to see it thrive.

Arreyanne wrote: »

One thing I always think is how can a developer justify Vertical progression, ya it been around since dirt, think about it though.

There comes a point where everything except the last bit of added content is worthless from a customers point of view. As a player why should I want to go do, for example the daily's in a previous level cap area that pay most likely 50-75% less in game money, when I can do the new ones for more rewards.

New armor and new weapons and new stuff is always nice but at what cost? Why can we not how nice things, for everyone?

Another game I play just added a new tier of armor and weapons, making everything below that tier obsolete.

Perhaps retention rates for player would increase if the new tier of gear was a cosmetic item or a selection of cosmetic items so that everyone completing that content wouldn't look just like everyone else that completed that content.

Would not the content team then be more available to create new content due to the fact they didn't have to rebalanced the entire game around the new tier of gear every time new content was released?

This is a great question @ZOS_GinaBruno and @ZOS_JessicaFolsom How can a developer justify vertical progression? Can we get that in the next ESO live? I mean really:
I am Zenimax or Blizzard or Trion etc...

I spend time and effort to create beautiful and fun content

Players like the content

I am happy and move on to my next project

I release new content and increase the level cap making my old content obsolete (because it rewards less, gives less exp, my character is too strong for the content....etc....

The new content is played and the old content is ignored by players because it is no longer relevant

Where does the developer benefit by making their own hard work obsolete?

From a player's perspective it seems like a lot of content is just sent to the curb....what's worse? The players who join after that content is sent to the curb never get to appreciate the content as challenging fun and end level stuff!

I don't see how anybody benefits from content becoming obsolete due to vertical progression....

Now in ZoS's defense they are doing scaling dungeons and delves which hopefully mitigate the obsolete aspect to some extent.

Jar_Ek wrote: »

Look at the secret world for an example of horizontal progression. The skill wheel is a form of horizontal progression in that the different skill lines are not inherently more powerful. Power in that game comes from gear generally.

Agree, The Secret World got horizontal progression right. Nailed it completely. The repeatable quests system they used also nailed the target as well.

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Horizontal progression is making your character more and more focused (powerful in one area at the expense of another)
Vertical progression is making your character more powerful versus others.

Lets take amour sets with 5 pc bonuses.
The armour itself increases stats so you instinctively think its vertical progression...but...
There is a variety of armour to choose from..... and limited selection...making it horizontal

A DPS character probably would ignore all +armour based options in favour of weapon damage.
A healer might take the increased healing taken gear rather than the weapon damage gear.
Forcing people to focus in some areas at the expense of others.
These armour options favour unique builds and enhance the character specialisation and uniqueness.
But they should be balanced in a way that counters each other.
So I have become more unique vs others....but not overall more powerful than others.
eg. The weapon damage magnitude is generally countered by the increased armour magnitude on the armour sets.

Provided everything is balanced properly ...its horizontal progression that lets you ...play as you want.
Become a better tank or a better healer or a better DPS.

Thanks @Rune_Relic nice idea about skills in your other thread!

white/green/blue/purple/yellow = vertical progression
vr1, vr2, vr3, ...vr11, vr12,vr13,vr14 gear requirements typically results in further vertical progression.

The rest of your post I agree The 5-piece sets are a form of horizontal progression and if properly balanced create (rather than remove) options. As you stated I agree

Provided everything is balanced properly ...its horizontal progression that lets you ...play as you want.

Yes, remove the Levels from the gear to be 50+.. but keep the 5 pc armour sets and such is what I meant.
In identical V14 V12 V6 sets should simply be removed through redundancy.
That way it not about power but optimising builds and finding (having access to) the one that suits your style/role.
Provided each armour set has a counter build of course.
Colours...I don't mind so much.
They aren't level dependant.
You can have gold level 1 gear if you like.

Nice thread by the way. I pretty much have a 1:1 agreement with everything you have written.

Faugaun · July 2015

Tolmos wrote: »

Man... some really weird definitions of horizontal progression here.

I mean, at the end of the day, you can just look at the name, right? Vertical progression implies you get more powerful. Horizontal progression implies you get more versatile, more options. Whether those options are combat oriented, aesthetic oriented, craft oriented, whatever. You get rewarded in ways outside of simply getting the numbers on your character sheet to tick up +100 every once in a while.

A lot of FPS games do a good job in this regard, especially making it feel rewarding. MMO developers have been struggling massively to find a way to do it... and that's part of why the genre is slowly waning.

Done right, it can be infinitely more fun and rewarding than vertical progression, and far less frustrating.

see that's what I'm talking about...there is little concensus on what it is that we talk about when referring too horizontal progression.

MissBizz · July 2015

Faugan, to the question about making old content obsolete.. I'm not sure if this is still on the table, but I recall during the B2P announcement it was mentioned the future DLC zones would scale - This would keep some content for the base levelling experience, but beyond that you would be free to roam around - and the new content wouldn't get "obsolete" at least not level wise. (Gear may be another thing though - as I'm not sure if the newer content would have "better" gear, or just "different" gear)

Of course, that was awhile ago, so maybe that plan has changed. To me though, that seems to be "horizontal" progression (if they go the "different" gear route) while also not making the content obsolete (past the initial levelling process)

Egg_Death · July 2015

I do believe that horizontal progression is going to be the only way to go as players get older and start realizing that the grind is really a big waste of time. There is no creativity in grinding and min-maxing gear, but there is plenty in choosing a set of abilities and deciding how to use them in a given situation.

I think we still need some vertical progression in the form of higher-quality gear, and perhaps a simple Call-of-Duty style progression where you will unlock minor improvements that sort of focus the gear's traits in a general direction. For example, I could make my bow shots "silenced" so it is difficult to tell where the arrows are coming from in exchange for reduced range and damage. I could use a high-weight bow that takes longer to pull but has increased range, velocity, and damage. Melee weapons could have similar traits, like weight reduction to make swinging faster at a cost of damage. You'd unlock these mods as you use a specific type of weapon. Crafting could be required to make the mods.

For abilities themselves I would have some mods that trade some amount of trait X for a better level of Y, maintaining the same overall power. Do I want my jab to hit for more damage but have a cooldown? Maybe I want increased range on jab. I could have a morph called power-jab where I can do more damage with the risk of missing, or maybe with a risk of self-damage. Maybe teamwork synergy oriented traits would be chosen rather than an innate part of an ability, so stun-jab would allow an ally to capitalize on my stun for increased damage.

I also think there should be some inherent vertical progression when I use an ability type or a weapon type, but it should be exponentially decreasing as you approach the "master" asymptote. A pure healer should not be on equal footing when first switching to a tank setup with someone who has been working on a tank since the beginning. I get that "you" and your experience are a kind of progression, but I believe it is common sense that your character doesn't know how to wield a shield and sword if the only thing they've ever known has been a restoration staff. Your character's class and skill line should not become meaningless for the sake of horizontal progression. This ties perfectly with a hard level cap at the "master" level, and only characters with huge amounts of time invested could be a master fighter and healer. The increases should not come as meaningless number buffs, but as variable abilities and access to better weaponry. In this case my low-level maple bow will limit my damage because it is not as strong as oak, and being more experienced will not have as much an impact as having better gear.

The endgame should be entirely focused on horizontal progression for sure, and even little-to-no progression at all is OK when enough variability is achieved as long as new content is put out often and PvP is competitive and varied.

Faugaun · July 2015

Faugaun wrote: »

Tolmos wrote: »

Man... some really weird definitions of horizontal progression here.

I mean, at the end of the day, you can just look at the name, right? Vertical progression implies you get more powerful. Horizontal progression implies you get more versatile, more options. Whether those options are combat oriented, aesthetic oriented, craft oriented, whatever. You get rewarded in ways outside of simply getting the numbers on your character sheet to tick up +100 every once in a while.

A lot of FPS games do a good job in this regard, especially making it feel rewarding. MMO developers have been struggling massively to find a way to do it... and that's part of why the genre is slowly waning.

Done right, it can be infinitely more fun and rewarding than vertical progression, and far less frustrating.

see that's what I'm talking about...there is little concensus on what it is that we talk about when referring too horizontal progression.

If we can't tell developers a unified idea of what we want how can they hope to create what the feedback indicates...

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

MCMancub wrote: »

Lord Xanhorn wrote: »

The problem with horitonal progression is there are no goals since the objectives stay the same. If I fight boss A with skills 12345 and then i horizontally progress to skills 56789, I am still fighting Boss A at the same strength and power just using different abilities. That is very boring to me since I already fought and beat boss A with skills 12345.

This is NOT the way horizontal progression is supposed to be, and we certainly don't see it this way in ESO.

You fight Boss A with skills 12345 because skills 56789 don't work as effectively. Conversely, you fight Boss B with skills 56789 because skills 12345 don't work as effectively. THAT is horizontal progression.

Faugaun wrote: »

Athas24 wrote: »

There needs to be a good mix vertically and horizontally in order to make things interesting and have a sense of achievement. I think ESO currently does a good job at achieving both honestly. Maybe opening up a few more skill trees with other guilds being involved like dark brotherhood, thieves etc. Perhaps increasing the fighters and mages lines by having some sort of split and focusing on one side or the other between the two using specializations. .. any way to introduce new skill trees will support more horizontal progression and make the cp system less of a burden for those who don't enjoy the vertical progression as much.

The problem with the champion system is not that it's vertical it's the power creep associated with its implementation. Currently we are 3 months (??) into it's implementation. There are players approaching if not past 1000 CP this is a huge advantage both in trials and in pvp (two of the major end-game competitive activities). The people with these large CP caches are literally winning just because they grind more CP and thus are more powerful and can thus do trials faster and fight in pvp more effectively. Ok fast forward to a year from now....the first hardcore grinder is at 3600 CP and a new player joins ...as soon as that player sees that at his casual pace (100 cp per month, that's almost a vet rank (900k exp per day) ) it will take 3 years in order to be competitive and on equal ground as the guy who is already there...what do you want to bet that player says screw this and goes to find a different game to play?

I get what you're saying here, but it's still not right. Don't get me wrong, the Champion System has issues, but they don't stem from the fact that it's vertical and not horizontal. The system itself is fine. The implementation is not. That's the problem. There's nothing wrong with the power creep or the incredibly high cap. Nothing at all. The problem lies in the environment. It's an untamed beast right now, but in the right setting it's an excellent system.

here's what I said:

The problem with the champion system is not that it's vertical it's the power creep associated with its implementation. Currently we are 3 months (??) into it's implementation.

So we agree vertical is not the problem necessarily and that the implementation does have a problem. Now I think the power creep is a huge problem that will result in population dwindle...you think it's more environmentally problematic... I disagree on that point... but that's ok we can have different views. I think we are observing the same symptoms but making widely different future predictions.

Xjcon wrote: »

I didn't read all the way through the op, not saying it's a bad idea or a good one from what I did read.

Why reinvent the wheel at this point tho, isn't that what has happened to other games, look at WoW it evolved after every expansion and at some point it wasn't what I wanted to play anymore so I moved on.

Eso is a unique mmo, it has some issues what game doesnt. my question is why do so many want to change it so much?

Pre 1.6 was IMO sooooo much better, but even then when we didn't have CP people made threads like this wanting to totally redesign the game for them.

So, I don't think I have pushed for a change in this thread at all ? The reason for concern IMHO is that if the game becomes unfriendly for new people then it will die a slow death (like a plant without water) and I personally want to see it thrive.

Arreyanne wrote: »

One thing I always think is how can a developer justify Vertical progression, ya it been around since dirt, think about it though.

There comes a point where everything except the last bit of added content is worthless from a customers point of view. As a player why should I want to go do, for example the daily's in a previous level cap area that pay most likely 50-75% less in game money, when I can do the new ones for more rewards.

New armor and new weapons and new stuff is always nice but at what cost? Why can we not how nice things, for everyone?

Another game I play just added a new tier of armor and weapons, making everything below that tier obsolete.

Perhaps retention rates for player would increase if the new tier of gear was a cosmetic item or a selection of cosmetic items so that everyone completing that content wouldn't look just like everyone else that completed that content.

Would not the content team then be more available to create new content due to the fact they didn't have to rebalanced the entire game around the new tier of gear every time new content was released?

This is a great question @ZOS_GinaBruno and @ZOS_JessicaFolsom How can a developer justify vertical progression? Can we get that in the next ESO live? I mean really:
I am Zenimax or Blizzard or Trion etc...

I spend time and effort to create beautiful and fun content

Players like the content

I am happy and move on to my next project

I release new content and increase the level cap making my old content obsolete (because it rewards less, gives less exp, my character is too strong for the content....etc....

The new content is played and the old content is ignored by players because it is no longer relevant

Where does the developer benefit by making their own hard work obsolete?

From a player's perspective it seems like a lot of content is just sent to the curb....what's worse? The players who join after that content is sent to the curb never get to appreciate the content as challenging fun and end level stuff!

I don't see how anybody benefits from content becoming obsolete due to vertical progression....

Now in ZoS's defense they are doing scaling dungeons and delves which hopefully mitigate the obsolete aspect to some extent.

Jar_Ek wrote: »

Look at the secret world for an example of horizontal progression. The skill wheel is a form of horizontal progression in that the different skill lines are not inherently more powerful. Power in that game comes from gear generally.

Agree, The Secret World got horizontal progression right. Nailed it completely. The repeatable quests system they used also nailed the target as well.

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Horizontal progression is making your character more and more focused (powerful in one area at the expense of another)
Vertical progression is making your character more powerful versus others.

Lets take amour sets with 5 pc bonuses.
The armour itself increases stats so you instinctively think its vertical progression...but...
There is a variety of armour to choose from..... and limited selection...making it horizontal

A DPS character probably would ignore all +armour based options in favour of weapon damage.
A healer might take the increased healing taken gear rather than the weapon damage gear.
Forcing people to focus in some areas at the expense of others.
These armour options favour unique builds and enhance the character specialisation and uniqueness.
But they should be balanced in a way that counters each other.
So I have become more unique vs others....but not overall more powerful than others.
eg. The weapon damage magnitude is generally countered by the increased armour magnitude on the armour sets.

Provided everything is balanced properly ...its horizontal progression that lets you ...play as you want.
Become a better tank or a better healer or a better DPS.

Thanks @Rune_Relic nice idea about skills in your other thread!

white/green/blue/purple/yellow = vertical progression
vr1, vr2, vr3, ...vr11, vr12,vr13,vr14 gear requirements typically results in further vertical progression.

The rest of your post I agree The 5-piece sets are a form of horizontal progression and if properly balanced create (rather than remove) options. As you stated I agree

Provided everything is balanced properly ...its horizontal progression that lets you ...play as you want.

Yes, remove the Levels from the gear to be 50+.. but keep the 5 pc armour sets and such is what I meant.
In identical V14 V12 V6 sets should simply be removed through redundancy.
That way it not about power but optimising builds and finding (having access to) the one that suits your style/role.
Provided each armour set has a counter build of course.
Colours...I don't mind so much.
They aren't level dependant.
You can have gold level 1 gear if you like.

Nice thread by the way. I pretty much have a 1:1 agreement with everything you have written.

This makes sense, and yeah I don't mind color items ...some vertical is ok, but when the vertical is making previous gear/content outdated then it only hurts everyone. Devs I get it. It's difficult to keep coming up with new ideas and new mechanics and prevent stuff from feeling repetitive when you stop retiring content...not saying it's an easy task.

Also I completely think some content should be really hard at endgame and some should be easier. To suit everyone's playstyles. Maybe the best approach is to set a difficulty range from so easy the most casual player dinging 50 could 2-man the 4 man dungeon. To omfg the best gear for this content and it's still 0 mistakes to beat. Then make content to fill in a bell curve in that range and call it all level 50.

Tolmos · July 2015

Faugaun wrote: »

see that's what I'm talking about...there is little concensus on what it is that we talk about when referring too horizontal progression.

Which is why most MMOs keep returning to the tired old system of "kill x number of mobs to make the numbers on your character sheet go up by 1. Repeat infinitely", and why the MMO genre is starting to lose steam. Which, as a long time MMO player, that's heart breaking for me

But if a genre can't keep up, it will get tossed to the side.

Faugaun · July 2015

Tolmos wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

see that's what I'm talking about...there is little concensus on what it is that we talk about when referring too horizontal progression.

Which is why most MMOs keep returning to the tired old system of "kill x number of mobs to make the numbers on your character sheet go up by 1. Repeat infinitely", and why the MMO genre is starting to lose steam. Which, as a long time MMO player, that's heart breaking for me But if a genre can't keep up, it will get tossed to the side.

Right and if I want the old system I will reactivate my wow sub (or some other older system). A new game cannot beat an established title like WoW at being WoW. They will lose everytime. Just like if I want to go start a retail outlet....if I copy everything walmart does (only I do it after walmart) will I ever beat walmart? No! I have to step outside the box and do something different. Not only does it need to be different but it needs to be more appealing.

Ok enough business speak....

My 2 cents? Vertical progression is unappealing and has caused many dungeons I enjoyed in games long past to become obsolete. Who lost? Everyone. Maybe some people wouldn't not have gained anything from it bot going obsolete but they didn't lose anything either....to make it obsolete it to lose something. Why would a developer do that to their own pride and joy? I have no answer to that question.

Rune_Relic · July 2015

Faugaun wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

Tolmos wrote: »

Man... some really weird definitions of horizontal progression here.

I mean, at the end of the day, you can just look at the name, right? Vertical progression implies you get more powerful. Horizontal progression implies you get more versatile, more options. Whether those options are combat oriented, aesthetic oriented, craft oriented, whatever. You get rewarded in ways outside of simply getting the numbers on your character sheet to tick up +100 every once in a while.

A lot of FPS games do a good job in this regard, especially making it feel rewarding. MMO developers have been struggling massively to find a way to do it... and that's part of why the genre is slowly waning.

Done right, it can be infinitely more fun and rewarding than vertical progression, and far less frustrating.

see that's what I'm talking about...there is little concensus on what it is that we talk about when referring too horizontal progression.

If we can't tell developers a unified idea of what we want how can they hope to create what the feedback indicates...

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

MCMancub wrote: »

Lord Xanhorn wrote: »

The problem with horitonal progression is there are no goals since the objectives stay the same. If I fight boss A with skills 12345 and then i horizontally progress to skills 56789, I am still fighting Boss A at the same strength and power just using different abilities. That is very boring to me since I already fought and beat boss A with skills 12345.

This is NOT the way horizontal progression is supposed to be, and we certainly don't see it this way in ESO.

You fight Boss A with skills 12345 because skills 56789 don't work as effectively. Conversely, you fight Boss B with skills 56789 because skills 12345 don't work as effectively. THAT is horizontal progression.

Faugaun wrote: »

Athas24 wrote: »

There needs to be a good mix vertically and horizontally in order to make things interesting and have a sense of achievement. I think ESO currently does a good job at achieving both honestly. Maybe opening up a few more skill trees with other guilds being involved like dark brotherhood, thieves etc. Perhaps increasing the fighters and mages lines by having some sort of split and focusing on one side or the other between the two using specializations. .. any way to introduce new skill trees will support more horizontal progression and make the cp system less of a burden for those who don't enjoy the vertical progression as much.

The problem with the champion system is not that it's vertical it's the power creep associated with its implementation. Currently we are 3 months (??) into it's implementation. There are players approaching if not past 1000 CP this is a huge advantage both in trials and in pvp (two of the major end-game competitive activities). The people with these large CP caches are literally winning just because they grind more CP and thus are more powerful and can thus do trials faster and fight in pvp more effectively. Ok fast forward to a year from now....the first hardcore grinder is at 3600 CP and a new player joins ...as soon as that player sees that at his casual pace (100 cp per month, that's almost a vet rank (900k exp per day) ) it will take 3 years in order to be competitive and on equal ground as the guy who is already there...what do you want to bet that player says screw this and goes to find a different game to play?

I get what you're saying here, but it's still not right. Don't get me wrong, the Champion System has issues, but they don't stem from the fact that it's vertical and not horizontal. The system itself is fine. The implementation is not. That's the problem. There's nothing wrong with the power creep or the incredibly high cap. Nothing at all. The problem lies in the environment. It's an untamed beast right now, but in the right setting it's an excellent system.

here's what I said:

The problem with the champion system is not that it's vertical it's the power creep associated with its implementation. Currently we are 3 months (??) into it's implementation.

So we agree vertical is not the problem necessarily and that the implementation does have a problem. Now I think the power creep is a huge problem that will result in population dwindle...you think it's more environmentally problematic... I disagree on that point... but that's ok we can have different views. I think we are observing the same symptoms but making widely different future predictions.

Xjcon wrote: »

I didn't read all the way through the op, not saying it's a bad idea or a good one from what I did read.

Why reinvent the wheel at this point tho, isn't that what has happened to other games, look at WoW it evolved after every expansion and at some point it wasn't what I wanted to play anymore so I moved on.

Eso is a unique mmo, it has some issues what game doesnt. my question is why do so many want to change it so much?

Pre 1.6 was IMO sooooo much better, but even then when we didn't have CP people made threads like this wanting to totally redesign the game for them.

So, I don't think I have pushed for a change in this thread at all ? The reason for concern IMHO is that if the game becomes unfriendly for new people then it will die a slow death (like a plant without water) and I personally want to see it thrive.

Arreyanne wrote: »

One thing I always think is how can a developer justify Vertical progression, ya it been around since dirt, think about it though.

There comes a point where everything except the last bit of added content is worthless from a customers point of view. As a player why should I want to go do, for example the daily's in a previous level cap area that pay most likely 50-75% less in game money, when I can do the new ones for more rewards.

New armor and new weapons and new stuff is always nice but at what cost? Why can we not how nice things, for everyone?

Another game I play just added a new tier of armor and weapons, making everything below that tier obsolete.

Perhaps retention rates for player would increase if the new tier of gear was a cosmetic item or a selection of cosmetic items so that everyone completing that content wouldn't look just like everyone else that completed that content.

Would not the content team then be more available to create new content due to the fact they didn't have to rebalanced the entire game around the new tier of gear every time new content was released?

This is a great question @ZOS_GinaBruno and @ZOS_JessicaFolsom How can a developer justify vertical progression? Can we get that in the next ESO live? I mean really:
I am Zenimax or Blizzard or Trion etc...

I spend time and effort to create beautiful and fun content

Players like the content

I am happy and move on to my next project

I release new content and increase the level cap making my old content obsolete (because it rewards less, gives less exp, my character is too strong for the content....etc....

The new content is played and the old content is ignored by players because it is no longer relevant

Where does the developer benefit by making their own hard work obsolete?

From a player's perspective it seems like a lot of content is just sent to the curb....what's worse? The players who join after that content is sent to the curb never get to appreciate the content as challenging fun and end level stuff!

I don't see how anybody benefits from content becoming obsolete due to vertical progression....

Now in ZoS's defense they are doing scaling dungeons and delves which hopefully mitigate the obsolete aspect to some extent.

Jar_Ek wrote: »

Look at the secret world for an example of horizontal progression. The skill wheel is a form of horizontal progression in that the different skill lines are not inherently more powerful. Power in that game comes from gear generally.

Agree, The Secret World got horizontal progression right. Nailed it completely. The repeatable quests system they used also nailed the target as well.

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Horizontal progression is making your character more and more focused (powerful in one area at the expense of another)
Vertical progression is making your character more powerful versus others.

Lets take amour sets with 5 pc bonuses.
The armour itself increases stats so you instinctively think its vertical progression...but...
There is a variety of armour to choose from..... and limited selection...making it horizontal

A DPS character probably would ignore all +armour based options in favour of weapon damage.
A healer might take the increased healing taken gear rather than the weapon damage gear.
Forcing people to focus in some areas at the expense of others.
These armour options favour unique builds and enhance the character specialisation and uniqueness.
But they should be balanced in a way that counters each other.
So I have become more unique vs others....but not overall more powerful than others.
eg. The weapon damage magnitude is generally countered by the increased armour magnitude on the armour sets.

Provided everything is balanced properly ...its horizontal progression that lets you ...play as you want.
Become a better tank or a better healer or a better DPS.

Thanks @Rune_Relic nice idea about skills in your other thread!

white/green/blue/purple/yellow = vertical progression
vr1, vr2, vr3, ...vr11, vr12,vr13,vr14 gear requirements typically results in further vertical progression.

The rest of your post I agree The 5-piece sets are a form of horizontal progression and if properly balanced create (rather than remove) options. As you stated I agree

Provided everything is balanced properly ...its horizontal progression that lets you ...play as you want.

Yes, remove the Levels from the gear to be 50+.. but keep the 5 pc armour sets and such is what I meant.
In identical V14 V12 V6 sets should simply be removed through redundancy.
That way it not about power but optimising builds and finding (having access to) the one that suits your style/role.
Provided each armour set has a counter build of course.
Colours...I don't mind so much.
They aren't level dependant.
You can have gold level 1 gear if you like.

Nice thread by the way. I pretty much have a 1:1 agreement with everything you have written.

This makes sense, and yeah I don't mind color items ...some vertical is ok, but when the vertical is making previous gear/content outdated then it only hurts everyone. Devs I get it. It's difficult to keep coming up with new ideas and new mechanics and prevent stuff from feeling repetitive when you stop retiring content...not saying it's an easy task.

Also I completely think some content should be really hard at endgame and some should be easier. To suit everyone's playstyles. Maybe the best approach is to set a difficulty range from so easy the most casual player dinging 50 could 2-man the 4 man dungeon. To omfg the best gear for this content and it's still 0 mistakes to beat. Then make content to fill in a bell curve in that range and call it all level 50.

There was a suggestion a long time ago about a 5 level window for instanced dungeons.
This caters for novice, apprentice, skilled, expert and master levels of difficulty.
If they are inturn tied to white green blue purple and gold 50+ version of gear drops,
people have a wide range of difficulty to attack and gear to help them attack it.

The beauty is the same gear will be available to all 5 levels.....so its not gated.
You just get a better reward for harder content.
Obviously 'master level' gold version of a dropped set would be more coveted and valuable than purple, blue, green or white.

BUT.... it still has to stop somewhere. otherwise you end up with 50 dungeon levels in stead of 50 character levels.

Lord Xanhorn · July 2015

Rune_Relic wrote: »

There was a suggestion a long time ago about a 5 level window for instanced dungeons.
This caters for novice, apprentice, skilled, expert and master levels of difficulty.
If they are inturn tied to white green blue purple and gold 50+ version of gear drops,
people have a wide range of difficulty to attack and gear to help them attack it.

The beauty is the same gear will be available to all 5 levels.....so its not gated.
You just get a better reward for harder content.
Obviously gold version of a dropped set would be more coveted and valuable than purple, blue, green or white.

BUT.... it still has to stop somewhere. otherwise you end up with 50 dungeon levels in stead of 50 character levels.

Not sure that would work since you could just steamroll the Level 1 content over and over until you got the drop you were looking for, then upgraded it via crafting...But the concept is still understood.

Faugaun · July 2015

MissBizz wrote: »

Faugan, to the question about making old content obsolete.. I'm not sure if this is still on the table, but I recall during the B2P announcement it was mentioned the future DLC zones would scale - This would keep some content for the base levelling experience, but beyond that you would be free to roam around - and the new content wouldn't get "obsolete" at least not level wise. (Gear may be another thing though - as I'm not sure if the newer content would have "better" gear, or just "different" gear)

Of course, that was awhile ago, so maybe that plan has changed. To me though, that seems to be "horizontal" progression (if they go the "different" gear route) while also not making the content obsolete (past the initial levelling process)

I've not heard anything since the original mention of that either.

Egg_Death wrote: »

I do believe that horizontal progression is going to be the only way to go as players get older and start realizing that the grind is really a big waste of time. There is no creativity in grinding and min-maxing gear, but there is plenty in choosing a set of abilities and deciding how to use them in a given situation.

I think we still need some vertical progression in the form of higher-quality gear, and perhaps a simple Call-of-Duty style progression where you will unlock minor improvements that sort of focus the gear's traits in a general direction. For example, I could make my bow shots "silenced" so it is difficult to tell where the arrows are coming from in exchange for reduced range and damage. I could use a high-weight bow that takes longer to pull but has increased range, velocity, and damage. Melee weapons could have similar traits, like weight reduction to make swinging faster at a cost of damage. You'd unlock these mods as you use a specific type of weapon. Crafting could be required to make the mods.

For abilities themselves I would have some mods that trade some amount of trait X for a better level of Y, maintaining the same overall power. Do I want my jab to hit for more damage but have a cooldown? Maybe I want increased range on jab. I could have a morph called power-jab where I can do more damage with the risk of missing, or maybe with a risk of self-damage. Maybe teamwork synergy oriented traits would be chosen rather than an innate part of an ability, so stun-jab would allow an ally to capitalize on my stun for increased damage.

I also think there should be some inherent vertical progression when I use an ability type or a weapon type, but it should be exponentially decreasing as you approach the "master" asymptote. A pure healer should not be on equal footing when first switching to a tank setup with someone who has been working on a tank since the beginning. I get that "you" and your experience are a kind of progression, but I believe it is common sense that your character doesn't know how to wield a shield and sword if the only thing they've ever known has been a restoration staff. Your character's class and skill line should not become meaningless for the sake of horizontal progression. This ties perfectly with a hard level cap at the "master" level, and only characters with huge amounts of time invested could be a master fighter and healer. The increases should not come as meaningless number buffs, but as variable abilities and access to better weaponry. In this case my low-level maple bow will limit my damage because it is not as strong as oak, and being more experienced will not have as much an impact as having better gear.

The endgame should be entirely focused on horizontal progression for sure, and even little-to-no progression at all is OK when enough variability is achieved as long as new content is put out often and PvP is competitive and varied.

This is an amazing post I really like the ideas expressed here wish I could give you multiple insightfuls actually if spellcrafting were still in the works if it was done like this is might work well.

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

Tolmos wrote: »

Man... some really weird definitions of horizontal progression here.

I mean, at the end of the day, you can just look at the name, right? Vertical progression implies you get more powerful. Horizontal progression implies you get more versatile, more options. Whether those options are combat oriented, aesthetic oriented, craft oriented, whatever. You get rewarded in ways outside of simply getting the numbers on your character sheet to tick up +100 every once in a while.

A lot of FPS games do a good job in this regard, especially making it feel rewarding. MMO developers have been struggling massively to find a way to do it... and that's part of why the genre is slowly waning.

Done right, it can be infinitely more fun and rewarding than vertical progression, and far less frustrating.

see that's what I'm talking about...there is little concensus on what it is that we talk about when referring too horizontal progression.

If we can't tell developers a unified idea of what we want how can they hope to create what the feedback indicates...

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

MCMancub wrote: »

Lord Xanhorn wrote: »

The problem with horitonal progression is there are no goals since the objectives stay the same. If I fight boss A with skills 12345 and then i horizontally progress to skills 56789, I am still fighting Boss A at the same strength and power just using different abilities. That is very boring to me since I already fought and beat boss A with skills 12345.

This is NOT the way horizontal progression is supposed to be, and we certainly don't see it this way in ESO.

You fight Boss A with skills 12345 because skills 56789 don't work as effectively. Conversely, you fight Boss B with skills 56789 because skills 12345 don't work as effectively. THAT is horizontal progression.

Faugaun wrote: »

Athas24 wrote: »

There needs to be a good mix vertically and horizontally in order to make things interesting and have a sense of achievement. I think ESO currently does a good job at achieving both honestly. Maybe opening up a few more skill trees with other guilds being involved like dark brotherhood, thieves etc. Perhaps increasing the fighters and mages lines by having some sort of split and focusing on one side or the other between the two using specializations. .. any way to introduce new skill trees will support more horizontal progression and make the cp system less of a burden for those who don't enjoy the vertical progression as much.

The problem with the champion system is not that it's vertical it's the power creep associated with its implementation. Currently we are 3 months (??) into it's implementation. There are players approaching if not past 1000 CP this is a huge advantage both in trials and in pvp (two of the major end-game competitive activities). The people with these large CP caches are literally winning just because they grind more CP and thus are more powerful and can thus do trials faster and fight in pvp more effectively. Ok fast forward to a year from now....the first hardcore grinder is at 3600 CP and a new player joins ...as soon as that player sees that at his casual pace (100 cp per month, that's almost a vet rank (900k exp per day) ) it will take 3 years in order to be competitive and on equal ground as the guy who is already there...what do you want to bet that player says screw this and goes to find a different game to play?

I get what you're saying here, but it's still not right. Don't get me wrong, the Champion System has issues, but they don't stem from the fact that it's vertical and not horizontal. The system itself is fine. The implementation is not. That's the problem. There's nothing wrong with the power creep or the incredibly high cap. Nothing at all. The problem lies in the environment. It's an untamed beast right now, but in the right setting it's an excellent system.

here's what I said:

The problem with the champion system is not that it's vertical it's the power creep associated with its implementation. Currently we are 3 months (??) into it's implementation.

So we agree vertical is not the problem necessarily and that the implementation does have a problem. Now I think the power creep is a huge problem that will result in population dwindle...you think it's more environmentally problematic... I disagree on that point... but that's ok we can have different views. I think we are observing the same symptoms but making widely different future predictions.

Xjcon wrote: »

I didn't read all the way through the op, not saying it's a bad idea or a good one from what I did read.

Why reinvent the wheel at this point tho, isn't that what has happened to other games, look at WoW it evolved after every expansion and at some point it wasn't what I wanted to play anymore so I moved on.

Eso is a unique mmo, it has some issues what game doesnt. my question is why do so many want to change it so much?

Pre 1.6 was IMO sooooo much better, but even then when we didn't have CP people made threads like this wanting to totally redesign the game for them.

So, I don't think I have pushed for a change in this thread at all ? The reason for concern IMHO is that if the game becomes unfriendly for new people then it will die a slow death (like a plant without water) and I personally want to see it thrive.

Arreyanne wrote: »

One thing I always think is how can a developer justify Vertical progression, ya it been around since dirt, think about it though.

There comes a point where everything except the last bit of added content is worthless from a customers point of view. As a player why should I want to go do, for example the daily's in a previous level cap area that pay most likely 50-75% less in game money, when I can do the new ones for more rewards.

New armor and new weapons and new stuff is always nice but at what cost? Why can we not how nice things, for everyone?

Another game I play just added a new tier of armor and weapons, making everything below that tier obsolete.

Perhaps retention rates for player would increase if the new tier of gear was a cosmetic item or a selection of cosmetic items so that everyone completing that content wouldn't look just like everyone else that completed that content.

Would not the content team then be more available to create new content due to the fact they didn't have to rebalanced the entire game around the new tier of gear every time new content was released?

This is a great question @ZOS_GinaBruno and @ZOS_JessicaFolsom How can a developer justify vertical progression? Can we get that in the next ESO live? I mean really:
I am Zenimax or Blizzard or Trion etc...

I spend time and effort to create beautiful and fun content

Players like the content

I am happy and move on to my next project

I release new content and increase the level cap making my old content obsolete (because it rewards less, gives less exp, my character is too strong for the content....etc....

The new content is played and the old content is ignored by players because it is no longer relevant

Where does the developer benefit by making their own hard work obsolete?

From a player's perspective it seems like a lot of content is just sent to the curb....what's worse? The players who join after that content is sent to the curb never get to appreciate the content as challenging fun and end level stuff!

I don't see how anybody benefits from content becoming obsolete due to vertical progression....

Now in ZoS's defense they are doing scaling dungeons and delves which hopefully mitigate the obsolete aspect to some extent.

Jar_Ek wrote: »

Look at the secret world for an example of horizontal progression. The skill wheel is a form of horizontal progression in that the different skill lines are not inherently more powerful. Power in that game comes from gear generally.

Agree, The Secret World got horizontal progression right. Nailed it completely. The repeatable quests system they used also nailed the target as well.

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Horizontal progression is making your character more and more focused (powerful in one area at the expense of another)
Vertical progression is making your character more powerful versus others.

Lets take amour sets with 5 pc bonuses.
The armour itself increases stats so you instinctively think its vertical progression...but...
There is a variety of armour to choose from..... and limited selection...making it horizontal

A DPS character probably would ignore all +armour based options in favour of weapon damage.
A healer might take the increased healing taken gear rather than the weapon damage gear.
Forcing people to focus in some areas at the expense of others.
These armour options favour unique builds and enhance the character specialisation and uniqueness.
But they should be balanced in a way that counters each other.
So I have become more unique vs others....but not overall more powerful than others.
eg. The weapon damage magnitude is generally countered by the increased armour magnitude on the armour sets.

Provided everything is balanced properly ...its horizontal progression that lets you ...play as you want.
Become a better tank or a better healer or a better DPS.

Thanks @Rune_Relic nice idea about skills in your other thread!

white/green/blue/purple/yellow = vertical progression
vr1, vr2, vr3, ...vr11, vr12,vr13,vr14 gear requirements typically results in further vertical progression.

The rest of your post I agree The 5-piece sets are a form of horizontal progression and if properly balanced create (rather than remove) options. As you stated I agree

Provided everything is balanced properly ...its horizontal progression that lets you ...play as you want.

Yes, remove the Levels from the gear to be 50+.. but keep the 5 pc armour sets and such is what I meant.
In identical V14 V12 V6 sets should simply be removed through redundancy.
That way it not about power but optimising builds and finding (having access to) the one that suits your style/role.
Provided each armour set has a counter build of course.
Colours...I don't mind so much.
They aren't level dependant.
You can have gold level 1 gear if you like.

Nice thread by the way. I pretty much have a 1:1 agreement with everything you have written.

This makes sense, and yeah I don't mind color items ...some vertical is ok, but when the vertical is making previous gear/content outdated then it only hurts everyone. Devs I get it. It's difficult to keep coming up with new ideas and new mechanics and prevent stuff from feeling repetitive when you stop retiring content...not saying it's an easy task.

Also I completely think some content should be really hard at endgame and some should be easier. To suit everyone's playstyles. Maybe the best approach is to set a difficulty range from so easy the most casual player dinging 50 could 2-man the 4 man dungeon. To omfg the best gear for this content and it's still 0 mistakes to beat. Then make content to fill in a bell curve in that range and call it all level 50.

There was a suggestion a long time ago about a 5 level window for instanced dungeons.
This caters for novice, apprentice, skilled, expert and master levels of difficulty.
If they are inturn tied to white green blue purple and gold 50+ version of gear drops,
people have a wide range of difficulty to attack and gear to help them attack it.

The beauty is the same gear will be available to all 5 levels.....so its not gated.
You just get a better reward for harder content.
Obviously 'master level' gold version of a dropped set would be more coveted and valuable than purple, blue, green or white.

BUT.... it still has to stop somewhere. otherwise you end up with 50 dungeon levels in stead of 50 character levels.

Like this also but agree with lord Xanhorn there are problems that would need to be addressed to proceed wi th a system like this

Rune_Relic · July 2015

Lord Xanhorn wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

There was a suggestion a long time ago about a 5 level window for instanced dungeons.
This caters for novice, apprentice, skilled, expert and master levels of difficulty.
If they are inturn tied to white green blue purple and gold 50+ version of gear drops,
people have a wide range of difficulty to attack and gear to help them attack it.

The beauty is the same gear will be available to all 5 levels.....so its not gated.
You just get a better reward for harder content.
Obviously gold version of a dropped set would be more coveted and valuable than purple, blue, green or white.

BUT.... it still has to stop somewhere. otherwise you end up with 50 dungeon levels in stead of 50 character levels.

Not sure that would work since you could just steamroll the Level 1 content over and over until you got the drop you were looking for, then upgraded it via crafting...But the concept is still understood.

But then you would only get white version of gear X.
Apprentice level = green version of gear X
skilled = blue gear X
expert = purple gear X
Master level drops =Gold Gear X

Not everyone crafts of course and gold upgrades are expensive.
So doing master content would be its own reward.

Point noted though...crafting could undermine the system without caution.

Faugaun · July 2015

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Lord Xanhorn wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

There was a suggestion a long time ago about a 5 level window for instanced dungeons.
This caters for novice, apprentice, skilled, expert and master levels of difficulty.
If they are inturn tied to white green blue purple and gold 50+ version of gear drops,
people have a wide range of difficulty to attack and gear to help them attack it.

The beauty is the same gear will be available to all 5 levels.....so its not gated.
You just get a better reward for harder content.
Obviously gold version of a dropped set would be more coveted and valuable than purple, blue, green or white.

BUT.... it still has to stop somewhere. otherwise you end up with 50 dungeon levels in stead of 50 character levels.

Not sure that would work since you could just steamroll the Level 1 content over and over until you got the drop you were looking for, then upgraded it via crafting...But the concept is still understood.

But then you would only get white version of gear X.
Apprentice level = green version of gear X
skilled = blue gear X
expert = purple gear X
Master level drops =Gold Gear X

Not everyone crafts of course and gold upgrades are expensive.
So doing master content would be its own reward.

Point noted though...crafting could undermine the system without caution.

Well and like you pointed out its easy to shift from 5 levels to 50 levels and then all you did was trade a level grind for a gear grind ....both vertical Grinds...especially when investors want cheap results.

Merlin13KAGL · July 2015

Diversity without bias.

More flavor, less FOTM.

Ffastyl · July 2015

Faugaun wrote: »

Why would a developer do that to their own pride and joy? I have no answer to that question.

I have an educated guess to that question:

As was previously stated, creating horizontal progression as we have defined(new item sets, more skills, more weapon types) is more difficult than changing the numbers on a spreadsheet or in a database. It is simply easier to create more levels with higher stats than new feeling mechanics. When creating a new mechanic, you have to be sure players can understand it, it is in line with other mechanics on power, and it cannot be exploited. That versus increasing the stats on gear -- we know which one will be done when time and/or budget is short.

The other reason is to copy WoW. MMOs, especially MMORPGs, requires several fold more funding than the average AAA game. Where that money comes from is either investors, who want to see a company, not a single product, or big publishers. The big publishers are conservative, and with good reason from a business perspective, so they will fund products that follow a tried and true formula. The studio in charge of making the MMO does not have the leeway to try something radical, let alone new, so they copy WoW with a reskin.

Faugaun wrote: »

Just like if I want to go start a retail outlet....if I copy everything walmart does (only I do it after walmart) will I ever beat walmart? No!

Grapdjan · July 2015

Faugaun wrote: »

Lord Xanhorn wrote: »

The problem with horitonal progression is there are no goals since the objectives stay the same. If I fight boss A with skills 12345 and then i horizontally progress to skills 56789, I am still fighting Boss A at the same strength and power just using different abilities. That is very boring to me since I already fought and beat boss A with skills 12345.

Ok, I totally get this sentiment...but it's the same in a vertical progression you do the latest greatest ....and its done ...now what? ...except if it was horizontal ..well I haven't done those dungeons from 3 expansions ago in a while... maybe I should give them a whirl with some of these new abilities! (sure beats ...man I've got 3600 champion points and now all content is easy mode...I'm bored. Wish they would release new content...Yeah it'll probably be tuned to players with 500 CP so I'll beat it first day out and be bored again...)

Also if all dungeons had time trials and competitive leaderboards perhaps that could drive utilizing different skills on the same dungeon to more efficiently complete the content. Plus when you beat that record set 6 months ago (and it's still a legit score since there is no vertical progression) it would feel amazing! Awwwe yeah my group did better than any group in the last year on this content! Awwe yeah my group won the monthly prize (a pet or a mount of something or heck even a new color to paint my armor .... that's got to be simple to add as a prize)!

EQ2 had an almost workable way of progression, which was while increasing level cap they also added a mechanic called chronomentoring, which involved a player going to an NPC and setting their level down to #0 and #5 of the level. Then they could do daily quests for tokens for cosmetic gear.

So while keeping people involved in leveling and xperiencing the endgame they also facilitated a more or less rewarding way to go back to missed content.

spoqster · July 2015

Thanks @Faugaun for the write up. I particularly liked your examples with jab and kick and with the taunts. I hope this will help many players to better understand the difference.

Also really great posts by @Tolmos and @Morvul for simplifying. That will also help communicate the idea.

For what it's worth I explained my take on it in a comment just today. I figured I post it here as it may also help players understand HP: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1998732/#Comment_1998732

Two notes:

I would consider having a limited number of slots a defining aspect of a horizontal progression system. Example: If you had unlimited skill slots, unlocking new skills would make you stronger because they would give you all the options at the same time as opposed to forcing you to make a choice.
Many put gear progression in the vertical category. It is a bit difficult to tell, because you have a vertical system inside a horizontal system inside a vertical system (quality, gear slots, gear levels), but I would argue it is primarily a horizontal system. Once you get to endgame the level component is gone, and you can exchange different set pieces that are all supposed to be equal in power but offer different flavors of power. That's pretty much the essence of a horizontal system: With every new piece you find, you have more options for your character. The quality verticality on top of it is comparable, albeit stronger, to the small increases in skill power over levels 1 to 4 of that skill.

spoqster · July 2015

Lord Xanhorn wrote: »

The problem with horitonal progression is there are no goals since the objectives stay the same. If I fight boss A with skills 12345 and then i horizontally progress to skills 56789, I am still fighting Boss A at the same strength and power just using different abilities. That is very boring to me since I already fought and beat boss A with skills 12345.

Thank you so much @Lord Xanhorn for that comment!

Two answers:

First of all players already fight the same bosses repeatedly, only with the same skills but higher damage. In order to incentivise sometimes other mechanics are needed. For ESO bosses it's the Monster Sets. The problem with the current system is that in the beginning it is not trivial to get through the vet dungeons, but as your character gets stronger, the bosses get easier and easier, up to the point we currently have where even doing vet City of Ash is a 17min cakewalk. So with a vertical progression system you are incentivised to do the same bosses over and over, but the fights get ever more boring. With a horizontal system the boss fights will stay a constant challenge. You can get better at fighting them, but it will stay a a challenge.
And here comes the candy: Now imagine you could scale the bosses up, pretty much without a limit. This way, as soon as the fight gets boring because you are getting better, you can increase boss hp and damage and you'll have a new challenge. This way the dungeons will work for all types of players (untalented casuals to super talented hardcores), provide an ongoing challenge, allow companies to squeeze the last bit of value out of the content they created (it's a boat load of work to create a good dungeon like vcoa) and my favorite advantage is the following: Imagine the immense sense of power and pride you will feel when you beat that boss on level 27 when your character is level 20 and you struggled beating him on level 20 just a few weeks back - because you exchanged a few skills and improved your play. And that sense of power you will feel will be real, not this crappy illusion of power you get by squashing lvl 20 mobs with a v14.

spoqster · July 2015

MissBizz wrote: »

Faugan, to the question about making old content obsolete.. I'm not sure if this is still on the table, but I recall during the B2P announcement it was mentioned the future DLC zones would scale - This would keep some content for the base levelling experience, but beyond that you would be free to roam around - and the new content wouldn't get "obsolete" at least not level wise. (Gear may be another thing though - as I'm not sure if the newer content would have "better" gear, or just "different" gear)

Of course, that was awhile ago, so maybe that plan has changed. To me though, that seems to be "horizontal" progression (if they go the "different" gear route) while also not making the content obsolete (past the initial levelling process)

@MissBizz ZOS does a lot of good things to make their content accessible and more fair, like scaling dungeons, battle leveling and scaling the new DLCs. But they only need these complex (confusing for players and difficult to develop and to balance) systems because their base progression system is crap. They are trying to get the effects of a horizontal progression system by doctoring with their vertical systems.

The fact that they apparently want to create a game that offers all the joys of one that has a horizontal system, is what motivates me to lead these discussions.

But the problem remains that they are trying to artificially create the flavour of an apple with lots of hard work, lots of tries and lots of tweaks, just to give is something that taste kind of like an apple, but not really. And all this while they could have just given us an apple in the first place.

I have the feeling that ZOS was afraid that all the WoW players had never tasted a real apple before, and they didn't know if they would like it. So now they are serving us an apple-flavored banana.

Faugaun · July 2015

Ffastyl wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

Why would a developer do that to their own pride and joy? I have no answer to that question.

I have an educated guess to that question:

As was previously stated, creating horizontal progression as we have defined(new item sets, more skills, more weapon types) is more difficult than changing the numbers on a spreadsheet or in a database. It is simply easier to create more levels with higher stats than new feeling mechanics. When creating a new mechanic, you have to be sure players can understand it, it is in line with other mechanics on power, and it cannot be exploited. That versus increasing the stats on gear -- we know which one will be done when time and/or budget is short.

The other reason is to copy WoW. MMOs, especially MMORPGs, requires several fold more funding than the average AAA game. Where that money comes from is either investors, who want to see a company, not a single product, or big publishers. The big publishers are conservative, and with good reason from a business perspective, so they will fund products that follow a tried and true formula. The studio in charge of making the MMO does not have the leeway to try something radical, let alone new, so they copy WoW with a reskin.

Faugaun wrote: »

Just like if I want to go start a retail outlet....if I copy everything walmart does (only I do it after walmart) will I ever beat walmart? No!

spoqster wrote: »

Thanks @Faugaun for the write up. I particularly liked your examples with jab and kick and with the taunts. I hope this will help many players to better understand the difference.

Also really great posts by @Tolmos and @Morvul for simplifying. That will also help communicate the idea.

For what it's worth I explained my take on it in a comment just today. I figured I post it here as it may also help players understand HP: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1998732/#Comment_1998732

Two notes:
I would consider having a limited number of slots a defining aspect of a horizontal progression system. Example: If you had unlimited skill slots, unlocking new skills would make you stronger because they would give you all the options at the same time as opposed to forcing you to make a choice.

Many put gear progression in the vertical category. It is a bit difficult to tell, because you have a vertical system inside a horizontal system inside a vertical system (quality, gear slots, gear levels), but I would argue it is primarily a horizontal system. Once you get to endgame the level component is gone, and you can exchange different set pieces that are all supposed to be equal in power but offer different flavors of power. That's pretty much the essence of a horizontal system: With every new piece you find, you have more options for your character. The quality verticality on top of it is comparable, albeit stronger, to the small increases in skill power over levels 1 to 4 of that skill.

Generally I agree and you guys are swaying me on the "gear is horizontal" argument.

spoqster wrote: »

Lord Xanhorn wrote: »

The problem with horitonal progression is there are no goals since the objectives stay the same. If I fight boss A with skills 12345 and then i horizontally progress to skills 56789, I am still fighting Boss A at the same strength and power just using different abilities. That is very boring to me since I already fought and beat boss A with skills 12345.

Thank you so much @Lord Xanhorn for that comment!

Two answers:
First of all players already fight the same bosses repeatedly, only with the same skills but higher damage. In order to incentivise sometimes other mechanics are needed. For ESO bosses it's the Monster Sets. The problem with the current system is that in the beginning it is not trivial to get through the vet dungeons, but as your character gets stronger, the bosses get easier and easier, up to the point we currently have where even doing vet City of Ash is a 17min cakewalk. So with a vertical progression system you are incentivised to do the same bosses over and over, but the fights get ever more boring. With a horizontal system the boss fights will stay a constant challenge. You can get better at fighting them, but it will stay a a challenge.

And here comes the candy: Now imagine you could scale the bosses up, pretty much without a limit. This way, as soon as the fight gets boring because you are getting better, you can increase boss hp and damage and you'll have a new challenge. This way the dungeons will work for all types of players (untalented casuals to super talented hardcores), provide an ongoing challenge, allow companies to squeeze the last bit of value out of the content they created (it's a boat load of work to create a good dungeon like vcoa) and my favorite advantage is the following: Imagine the immense sense of power and pride you will feel when you beat that boss on level 27 when your character is level 20 and you struggled beating him on level 20 just a few weeks back - because you exchanged a few skills and improved your play. And that sense of power you will feel will be real, not this crappy illusion of power you get by squashing lvl 20 mobs with a v14.

Again, we are on the same wavelength...if I spent 300 million developing 14 dungeons and 3 raids ....I would want people to be able to enjoy them as long as possible!

spoqster wrote: »

MissBizz wrote: »

Faugan, to the question about making old content obsolete.. I'm not sure if this is still on the table, but I recall during the B2P announcement it was mentioned the future DLC zones would scale - This would keep some content for the base levelling experience, but beyond that you would be free to roam around - and the new content wouldn't get "obsolete" at least not level wise. (Gear may be another thing though - as I'm not sure if the newer content would have "better" gear, or just "different" gear)

Of course, that was awhile ago, so maybe that plan has changed. To me though, that seems to be "horizontal" progression (if they go the "different" gear route) while also not making the content obsolete (past the initial levelling process)

@MissBizz ZOS does a lot of good things to make their content accessible and more fair, like scaling dungeons, battle leveling and scaling the new DLCs. But they only need these complex (confusing for players and difficult to develop and to balance) systems because their base progression system is crap. They are trying to get the effects of a horizontal progression system by doctoring with their vertical systems.

The fact that they apparently want to create a game that offers all the joys of one that has a horizontal system, is what motivates me to lead these discussions.

But the problem remains that they are trying to artificially create the flavour of an apple with lots of hard work, lots of tries and lots of tweaks, just to give is something that taste kind of like an apple, but not really. And all this while they could have just given us an apple in the first place.

I have the feeling that ZOS was afraid that all the WoW players had never tasted a real apple before, and they didn't know if they would like it. So now they are serving us an apple-flavored banana.

This ...well it is a new perspective and the way zos has acted about stuff and the scaling it actually seem plausible and maybe even likely...made me chuckle "apple flavored bananas"!

Gidorick · July 2015

I know it's not an RPG but Ratchet and Clank's upgrade system seems like a purely horizontal progression system.

"Progression" seems misleading too.

Vertical Progression
Horizontal Diversification

Faugaun · July 2015

@Gidorick did you play The Secret World? That's kinda my bench mark for a solid horizontal progression system.

I found another article on Horizontal Progression:

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/strangesands/122012/24271_What-is-Horizontal-Progression-Really

This one is pretty good imho

Gidorick · July 2015

I actually loaded it up TSW recently @Faugaun. I'm enjoying it so far but the controls feel wonky. I'm just a few hours in.

LOVE the concept... and it makes me REALLY appreciate ESO's character Creator. lol.

Faugaun · July 2015

Gidorick wrote: »

I actually loaded it up TSW recently @Faugaun. I'm enjoying it so far but the controls feel wonky. I'm just a few hours in.

LOVE the concept... and it makes me REALLY appreciate ESO's character Creator. lol.

TSW got some things really right IMHO primarily the quests and the progression system....I think their biggest problem was the entire game was too complicated and too intellectual for the average gamer. You should play till at least the desert (3 zones to get to the desert) to get a good feel for how things generally work.

spoqster · July 2015

Gidorick wrote: »

I know it's not an RPG but Ratchet and Clank's upgrade system seems like a purely horizontal progression system.

"Progression" seems misleading too.

Vertical Progression
Horizontal Diversification

I think we can safely call it Horizontal Progression.

Progression - Specifically, advancement to a higher or more developed state; development, growth. (wiktionary)

Horizontal systems increase your options, and that is clearly character progression to me. Especially if these additional options make it more likely that you will be able to beat content.