Please delay CP conversions till after VR is removed.

Faugaun

I would first like to say that while in the previous plan I would have received 30 cp and now I will receive 0 cp the newest CP conversions method by Zos seems to be more fair.

I am however concerned about the double bonus (temporarily) to VR 14 players (or any in the top bracket).

Please keep in mind this is from the view of a VR1 who has subbed since the beginning.

Under the VR system players with higher ranks are allowed much stronger gear compared to those at VR1. This by itself is fine, they progressed their gear and it is rightfully earned and I will suck it up, put on my big boy pants and cope.

Under the CS system the early points are much more valuable than the later points from the models I have read (example: 1.0%, 0.9%, 0.8%...) Due to diminishing returns. This is actually kinda cool as it longterm aims to balance the playing field (mostly). Further the account wide method is really cool and I love it (providing the skills themselves are likable, I am banking they will be).

All of the above is great and wonderful, my concern is just that overlapping the retro compensation with the VR system is way OP.

If I am a VR14, here is how I play this, I put each skill point in separate areas with desirable skills, netting as many 1.0% bonuses as possible which are then stacked on top of my VR14 gear (which is significantly stronger than VR1 gear).

OK so its becoming apparent that the strong get stronger and the weak cannot compete. Let me take it one step further.

Let's suppose the VR1 and VR14 grind exp at the exact same rate and the VR14 is 'forced' to place the next 70 cp into 0.9% increases while the VR1 gets the spiffy 1.0% increases.....you would think that the VR1 would be gaining ground, but this may not be the case since the 0.9% bonus on VR14 gear and with all the extra skill points they have likely acquired is actually much more beneficial than the 1.0% increase is for the VR1. (I admit eventually that same VR1 will level and be able to use VR14 gear....maybe, but in the in between time the VR14 becomes much more powerful (which has the effect of making it much more difficult for the VR1 to gain exp in PvP, and subsequently allows the VR14 to gain exp and thus CP much more rapidly than the VR1).

It is under this logic that I would like to see the CP points awarded for VR ranks (experience) only be awarded once the VR system is completely removed (very 1.7?).

I hope the community agree or at least gives constructive criticism of my views but I half expect to be flamed by VR14's for this suggestion.

Cheers,
A concerned VR1

P.S. Zos I know you guys listen it is evident in all your actions. Please consider this and make the best decision for the game.

Bloodystab

Here we go, here we go, here we go again Lalalalala! Lalalala!

Roechacca

I understand what you're trying to convey . However , it does sound like you're trying to hold people back just so you and others can catch up . Keep in mind I don't have a VR14 either . Don't you think that's a little unfair to them since they put in the work already ?

dharbert

Sounds a lot like you want a "no child left behind" policy for ESO. A policy that didn't work out too well either.

Would you also like those of us who have millions of gold to stop earning gold so others can catch up to the amount we have?

Valencer

dharbert wrote: »

Sounds a lot like you want a "no child left behind" policy for ESO. A policy that didn't work out too well either.

Would you also like those of us who have millions of gold to stop earning gold so others can catch up to the amount we have?

Riiight. That's exactly what he said

Would it kill you to wait for the rank-to-CP conversion until veteran ranks are actually removed? The OP makes a very valid point. If this conversion goes live in Update 6, VR14s will basically get even more bonuses compared to a VR1, for no real reason.

Faugaun

roechacca wrote: »

I understand what you're trying to convey . However , it does sound like you're trying to hold people back just so you and others can catch up . Keep in mind I don't have a VR14 either . Don't you think that's a little unfair to them since they put in the work already ?

Hold people back? They maintain all the benefits of VR14 until it is removed. Then a fair exchange for CP once they are removed. How is it holding people back?


Edit: Let me ask you a question. What do VR14 lose in 1.6 to deserve 70 CP?
The answer is nothing as best I can tell.
When VR is removed then yes they lose something, and I agree fair conversion is fair.

seanvwolf

Lets say that you do decide to put 70 CS points into each possible area and try to spread them out evenly... We'll go according to the table you provided (since I don't have a good source for it yet and it's still up for testing both internally and on the PTS).

We know there are 9 signs that CS points will be allocated to.

We know there are at least 3 trinity (or Guardian) playstyles they are segregating those signs to, each having one for Warrior, Mage and Thief.

So that's 27 individual bonuses, at least.

Even if you have 70 CS points when CS launches on live, and an even distribution of points based on the table you've provided, this means an aggregate gain of around 1.9%-2.7% per area, if there is only 27.

These are speculated stats, but you'll get the idea.

1. Max Health
2. Max Magicka
3. Max Stamina
4. Magicka Recovery
5. Health Recovery
6. Stamina Recovery
7. Magicka Cost Reduction
8. Stamina Cost Reduction
9. Ultimate Cost Reduction
10. Spell Damage
11. Weapon Damage
12. Ultimate Gain
13. Stealth Radius Decrease
14. Spell Critical
15. Weapon Critical
16. Spell Resist
17. Armor
18. Dodge
19. Stealth Detection Increase
20. Range
21. Increase Incoming Heals
22. Increase Damage Shields
23. Increase Buff Duration
24. Decrease Debuff Duration
25. Reduce Weapon Enchant Procs
26. Increase Potion Effectiveness
27. Increase Potion Duration

Yeah, real OP. *sarcasm is sarcastic*

Even with all these at a 1.9%-2.7% increase, these don't shine a light to the already dominant and overwhelming effect of gear and existing skill line passives. Throw in PVP Home buffs, food effects and equipment upgrades and reductions to any and all of these stats due to equipment degredation during gameplay and you'll see how little 70 CP means even when the Champion System launches.

---

Now let's consider a possible gain if all 70 CP are dumped in one stat (say Mage for passive spell resist as we do have footage supporting some of the example table below).

Again these are speculative tables and i'm sure it doesn't look remotely this bleak a gain in the long run (as ZOS did say they wanted each CP spent to actually seem effective; likely the final point in an area gaining a .001 value, but illustrates the effect of diminishing returns in action:

First three:
.9+.6+.4 = 1.9%

First ten:
.9+.6+.4+.133+.0444+.0133+.00444+.00133+.000444+.000133= 2.097051%

With this example table, there is already little difference between the first three and the first ten. Again, passives, gear and VR ranks themselves play a much greater role.

dharbert

Zenimax said they would compensate veteran ranked players and this is our compensation for our time and effort put in. Suck it up, buttercup. A VR14 will always be ahead of a VR1, no matter what they do.

Joejudas

So your VR 1 doesn't have 200 K exp. Well go level

Faugaun

seanvwolf wrote: »

Lets say that you do decide to put 70 CS points into each possible area and try to spread them out evenly... We'll go according to the table you provided (since I don't have a good source for it yet and it's still up for testing both internally and on the PTS).

We know there are 9 signs that CS points will be allocated to.

We know there are at least 3 trinity (or Guardian) playstyles they are segregating those signs to, each having one for Warrior, Mage and Thief.

So that's 27 individual bonuses, at least.

Even if you have 70 CS points when CS launches on live, and an even distribution of points based on the table you've provided, this means an aggregate gain of around 1.9%-2.7% per area, if there is only 27.

These are speculated stats, but you'll get the idea.

1. Max Health
2. Max Magicka
3. Max Stamina
4. Magicka Recovery
5. Health Recovery
6. Stamina Recovery
7. Magicka Cost Reduction
8. Stamina Cost Reduction
9. Ultimate Cost Reduction
10. Spell Damage
11. Weapon Damage
12. Ultimate Gain
13. Stealth Radius Decrease
14. Spell Critical
15. Weapon Critical
16. Spell Resist
17. Armor
18. Dodge
19. Stealth Detection Increase
20. Range
21. Increase Incoming Heals
22. Increase Damage Shields
23. Increase Buff Duration
24. Decrease Debuff Duration
25. Reduce Weapon Enchant Procs
26. Increase Potion Effectiveness
27. Increase Potion Duration

Yeah, real OP. *sarcasm is sarcastic*

Even with all these at a 1.9%-2.7% increase, these don't shine a light to the already dominant and overwhelming effect of gear and existing skill line passives. Throw in PVP Home buffs, food effects and equipment upgrades and reductions to any and all of these stats due to equipment degredation during gameplay and you'll see how little 70 CS means even when the Champion System launches.

I am not saying you shouldn't get it, just that the timing should be changed. According to your table (and I won't speculate that its right or wrong either, but will use so we have common ground for debate). That is 27 areas where a VR14 becomes 2.7% more powerful (please remember these can have synergistic effects, like +total magic pool, +magic regen, +magic cost reduction, +spell damage +spell critical all might have +2.7% each but when combined the total effect is much greater).

What does your VR14 lose at 1.6 to justify the 'compensation for your previous hard work'?

Now when/if VR is removed then that is the correct time to provide compensation because there is a real negative effect to you from the removal of the system.

Roechacca

Faugaun wrote: »

roechacca wrote: »

I understand what you're trying to convey . However , it does sound like you're trying to hold people back just so you and others can catch up . Keep in mind I don't have a VR14 either . Don't you think that's a little unfair to them since they put in the work already ?

Hold people back? They maintain all the benefits of VR14 until it is removed. Then a fair exchange for CP once they are removed. How is it holding people back?


Edit: Let me ask you a question. What do VR14 lose in 1.6 to deserve 70 CP?
The answer is nothing as best I can tell.
When VR is removed then yes they lose something, and I agree fair conversion is fair.

How is asking someone not to implement a update because people haven't finished leveling not holding people back ?

AlexDougherty

Faugaun wrote: »

I would first like to say that while in the previous plan I would have received 30 cp and now I will receive 0 cp the newest CP conversions method by Zos seems to be more fair.

I am however concerned about the double bonus (temporarily) to VR 14 players (or any in the top bracket).

Please keep in mind this is from the view of a VR1 who has subbed since the beginning.

Under the VR system players with higher ranks are allowed much stronger gear compared to those at VR1. This by itself is fine, they progressed their gear and it is rightfully earned and I will suck it up, put on my big boy pants and cope.

Under the CS system the early points are much more valuable than the later points from the models I have read (example: 1.0%, 0.9%, 0.8%...) Due to diminishing returns. This is actually kinda cool as it longterm aims to balance the playing field (mostly). Further the account wide method is really cool and I love it (providing the skills themselves are likable, I am banking they will be).

All of the above is great and wonderful, my concern is just that overlapping the retro compensation with the VR system is way OP.

If I am a VR14, here is how I play this, I put each skill point in separate areas with desirable skills, netting as many 1.0% bonuses as possible which are then stacked on top of my VR14 gear (which is significantly stronger than VR1 gear).

OK so its becoming apparent that the strong get stronger and the weak cannot compete. Let me take it one step further.

Let's suppose the VR1 and VR14 grind exp at the exact same rate and the VR14 is 'forced' to place the next 70 cp into 0.9% increases while the VR1 gets the spiffy 1.0% increases.....you would think that the VR1 would be gaining ground, but this may not be the case since the 0.9% bonus on VR14 gear and with all the extra skill points they have likely acquired is actually much more beneficial than the 1.0% increase is for the VR1. (I admit eventually that same VR1 will level and be able to use VR14 gear....maybe, but in the in between time the VR14 becomes much more powerful (which has the effect of making it much more difficult for the VR1 to gain exp in PvP, and subsequently allows the VR14 to gain exp and thus CP much more rapidly than the VR1).

It is under this logic that I would like to see the CP points awarded for VR ranks (experience) only be awarded once the VR system is completely removed (very 1.7?).

I hope the community agree or at least gives constructive criticism of my views but I half expect to be flamed by VR14's for this suggestion.

Cheers,
A concerned VR1

P.S. Zos I know you guys listen it is evident in all your actions. Please consider this and make the best decision for the game.

Yeah, I know what you mean, unfortunately I am pretty sure they will be balancing the Champion Points before they get rid of VR system, and delaying our feedback won't work.

All we can try to do is correct some of the overzealous feedback some will give, and try to remind people that they are getting a bonus overlap, and they need to compensate for this in their responses.

Joejudas

I guess they won't please everyone....but if you couldn't play enough to level past vr1 with 200k exp since launch then it won't matter how they rebalance the system....your just going to be at a power disadvantage. I don't mean it in a disrespectful way. Find a bid guild to run with.

Roechacca

Wait a minute I think after reading a few responses I get what under level players are asking . Has ZOS stated anything about this making VR14's OP until VR ranks are removed ? I think a I need more information in order to formulate a full opinion .

BBSooner

I Hope they don't delay it. Whether we get 0 starting cp, 30, or 70 I really just want the system period.

Faugaun

roechacca wrote: »

Wait a minute I think after reading a few responses I get what under level players are asking . Has ZOS stated anything about this making VR14's OP until VR ranks are removed ? I think a I need more information in order to formulate a full opinion .

Now it is clicking, yes that is exactly why they changed it to 30 CP originally (well one of the reasons Gina cited), because of the overlap....I expected them to give more when system is removed. There is certainly no reason for VR14 to double dip which is the current proposal as I understand it.

Roechacca

Faugaun wrote: »

roechacca wrote: »

Wait a minute I think after reading a few responses I get what under level players are asking . Has ZOS stated anything about this making VR14's OP until VR ranks are removed ? I think a I need more information in order to formulate a full opinion .

Now it is clicking, yes that is exactly why they changed it to 30 CP originally (well one of the reasons Gina cited), because of the overlap....I expected them to give more when system is removed. There is certainly no reason for VR14 to double dip which is the current proposal as I understand it.

Interesting conundrum .

AlexDougherty

Faugaun wrote: »

roechacca wrote: »

Wait a minute I think after reading a few responses I get what under level players are asking . Has ZOS stated anything about this making VR14's OP until VR ranks are removed ? I think a I need more information in order to formulate a full opinion .

Now it is clicking, yes that is exactly why they changed it to 30 CP originally (well one of the reasons Gina cited), because of the overlap....I expected them to give more when system is removed. There is certainly no reason for VR14 to double dip which is the current proposal as I understand it.

Yes, but once the VR levels are removed they will have to relearn how to play (trust me playing an overpowered character causes you to rely on the overpowering). Long term it will be a negligable blip, and they will have to rebalance several times anyhow.

dharbert

This thread is just a thinly veiled attempt to get Zenimax to push back the XP to Champion points conversion date so they have more time to get to VR14. If you've been playing since launch and just now have a VR1, no amount of Champion points is going to put you on par with players who have max ranked vet characters.

VR14 characters also have more skill points, better gear, better stats, more skills, more morphs, etc...... No amount of Champion points is going to close the gap. Put in the time if you want to be on that level.

Faugaun

Joejudas wrote: »

I guess they won't please everyone....but if you couldn't play enough to level past vr1 with 200k exp since launch then it won't matter how they rebalance the system....your just going to be at a power disadvantage. I don't mean it in a disrespectful way. Find a bid guild to run with.

Not arguing this, it is what it is, I have RL obligations which place me at a disadvantage others do not have. (In my case I hope to have more time, finished my Thesis woohoo!, but RP makes me level slower too, speaking of Zos will time played work for RPers to gain CP during RP time as well? Just hoping).

Joejudas

dharbert wrote: »

This thread is just a thinly veiled attempt to get Zenimax to push back the XP to Champion points conversion date so they have more time to get to VR14. If you've been playing since launch and just now have a VR1, no amount of Champion points is going to put you on par with players who have max ranked vet characters.

I agree. Teaming up is your best option.

AlexDougherty

dharbert wrote: »

This thread is just a thinly veiled attempt to get Zenimax to push back the XP to Champion points conversion date so they have more time to get to VR14. If you've been playing since launch and just now have a VR1, no amount of Champion points is going to put you on par with players who have max ranked vet characters.

Well I have stopped playing My VR characters, I want as many quests Bosses and dungeons to be there so I can level up CPs when they get here.

Not been totally disasterous, my first DK didn't have dragon leap, just found out how much fun it is

Mordria

So, get off your butt and level your character.

Faugaun

dharbert wrote: »

This thread is just a thinly veiled attempt to get Zenimax to push back the XP to Champion points conversion date so they have more time to get to VR14. If you've been playing since launch and just now have a VR1, no amount of Champion points is going to put you on par with players who have max ranked vet characters.

VR14 characters also have more skill points, better gear, better stats, more skills, more morphs, etc...... No amount of Champion points is going to close the gap. Put in the time if you want to be on that level.

Actually you are wrong, but this is an interesting point, I think only the CP for the conversion should be calculated at 1.6 release but awarded when VR removed. The same problem occurs if someone is allowed to farm exp and CP simultaneously and get credit for both eventually. Actually this would be worse because it would be permenant benefit from double dipping. Where as the current is just double dipping between release of CSand removed of VR system.

Edit: added the bolded words for clarification

seanvwolf

Faugaun wrote: »

Joejudas wrote: »

I guess they won't please everyone....but if you couldn't play enough to level past vr1 with 200k exp since launch then it won't matter how they rebalance the system....your just going to be at a power disadvantage. I don't mean it in a disrespectful way. Find a bid guild to run with.

Not arguing this, it is what it is, I have RL obligations which place me at a disadvantage others do not have. (In my case I hope to have more time, finished my Thesis woohoo!, but RP makes me level slower too, speaking of Zos will time played work for RPers to gain CP during RP time as well? Just hoping).

There seems to be a way in the works that will give you bonuses to experience you WILL gain based on how much time you don't spend in combat, to compensate RPers who spend time in game other than fighting. So it's a boost, not direct CP but a good compromise. You will have to actually complete quests and gain exp through exploration and combat to accrue CP.

seanvwolf

Added this following to my initial response to OP:
Now let's consider a possible gain if all 70 CP are dumped in one stat (say Mage for passive spell resist as we do have footage supporting some of the example table below).

Again these are speculative tables and i'm sure it doesn't look remotely this bleak a gain in the long run (as ZOS did say they wanted each CP spent to actually seem effective; likely the final point in an area gaining a .001 value, but illustrates the effect of diminishing returns in action:

First three:
.9+.6+.4 = 1.9%

First ten:
.9+.6+.4+.133+.0444+.0133+.00444+.00133+.000444+.000133= 2.097051%

With this example table, there is already little difference between the first three and the first ten. Again, passives, gear and VR ranks themselves play a much greater role.

Cody

removal of vet ranks wont be for at least another month or two. the CS needs to come now so it can be tested and fixed before then. If it is not looked over b4 then, then all the re-scaling will bring utter chaos to ESO. the ESO in chaos era needs to come to an end.

and honestly, VR14s SHOULD receive more points. It took me 4 straight months of play to reach VR14. Not all of us just grinded it in a day ya know.

Roechacca

The good news is this probably won't effect your abity to RP .

Faugaun

Cody wrote: »

removal of vet ranks wont be for at least another month or two. the CS needs to come now so it can be tested and fixed before then. If it is not looked over b4 then, then all the re-scaling will bring utter chaos to ESO. the ESO in chaos era needs to come to an end.

and honestly, VR14s SHOULD receive more points. It took me 4 straight months of play to reach VR14. Not all of us just grinded it in a day ya know.

You didn't read what I wrote!

1)Release CS as planned
2)On release of CS Calculate a conversion value for each character to get xyz CP.
3)Run both systems side by side (note VR14 still have every benefit of VR14 and are earning CP)
4) Remove VR (if that is the ultimate decision)
5) Credit players the converted CP calculated from step 2

Cody

Faugaun wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

removal of vet ranks wont be for at least another month or two. the CS needs to come now so it can be tested and fixed before then. If it is not looked over b4 then, then all the re-scaling will bring utter chaos to ESO. the ESO in chaos era needs to come to an end.

and honestly, VR14s SHOULD receive more points. It took me 4 straight months of play to reach VR14. Not all of us just grinded it in a day ya know.

You didn't read what I wrote!

1)Release CS as planned
2)On release of CS Calculate a conversion value for each character to get xyz CP.
3)Run both systems side by side (note VR14 still have every benefit of VR14 and are earning CP)
4) Remove VR (if that is the ultimate decision)
5) Credit players the converted CP calculated from step 2

I did read what you wrote, I just did not comprehend any of the points you have responded to me with.

VR will be removed in 1.7 if ZOS holds true to their statements. The removal of VR ranks will be a good thing, as it will bring balance to the game.

Your idea "On release of CS Calculate a conversion value for each character to get xyz CP" I really don't understand, 1. what you are trying to say, and 2. How that would have any effect. If that means more characters=more CP, then my guess is correct. On that note I would like to say that it would be much better if you just leveled one character to VR14 instead of making 8 VR1s. That is what I think about it.

Faugaun

roechacca wrote: »

The good news is this probably won't effect your abity to RP .

Absolutely correct

I also don't plan on Raiding or doing end level grindfest content, I do enjoy PvP though and it does have an effect there. In my instance it may or may not matter only the future will tell. However, every player should want an implementation that is fair (not benefiting newer peeps out of proportion and not deterring newer peeps out of proportion) awarding a bonus to bigger players when they have suffered 0 loss but not doing so for small players is very biased. This is why it should instead be awarded when VR is removed.

Another point....suppose Zos decides they like the combination of VR and CS systems....and decided to leave both in place. Now under the current model we have given VR14 players free advantage, disadvantaged anyone who did not get 70cp by giving them free points that no other players will ever get. This is just as unfair as VR14 players receiving the same as VR1 except the bias is in the opposite direction. Again the unknown factors suggest that the compensation should come at the time of loss.

If you went to a court and said hey my neighbor is burning his brush and it is likely to catch my house on fire please make him compensate me for this....they would lol and say sorry come back when you have suffered damages.