A proposal to stop wrecking blow spamming

TX11 · October 2015

Okay. Watching the video i think i can see the issue.

First thing, you are getting immunity everytime you recover from a wrecking blow knockdown, and it lasts ~6 seconds everytime, as it should. However, the immunity is only applied after you stand up, and there is a brief window between you standing up and you getting the immunity where you are vulnerable to a knockdown again.

Chronology of what happens in the video:

0:01 - you get hit by the first knockdown
0:05 - you stand up, and your first immunity starts. (notice that the immunity only starts after you stand up, not while you are lying down)
0:11 - your first immunity expires
0:12 - you get hit by the second knockdown
<up until this point everything is working as it should. but now...>
0:14 - you stand up from the 2nd knockdown, but your immunity has not been applied yet. You eat the 3rd knockdown
0:15 - NOW your immunity from the 2nd knockdown is applied (too late). You are lying on the floor, with immunity running.
0:21 - your second immunity expires
0:22 - 4th knockdown, and the end.

The problem is that while you did get immunity from the 2nd knockdown, it came a split second too late, you got knocked down in meantime, and your immunity was wasted since you were lying on the floor while it was running.

TLDR: the bug is this: immunity after a knockdown is applied a split second too late, allowing two successive knockdowns if the 2nd knockdown is timed precisely between character standing up from 1st knockdown and the immunity from 1st knockdown being applied.

I copy and pasted this from the other thread. it was done by sharee. If you go over and watch the video in the other thread and see what this guy is talking about you will understand and see exactly what the problem is. It is not WB. It is an issue with cc immunity. I ENCOURAGE ALL YOU COMPLAINING ABOUT WB TO DO YOUR RESEARCH ON THE CC IMMUNITY FIRST. If sharee sees this I hope your ok with me using your post here. It explains things very well.

Sausage · October 2015

timidobserver wrote: »

Sausage wrote: »

Dodge roll through them to behind, simple. Not to mention most WBs spammers has very high CP whats going to be fixed in Orsinium.

I am personally am not in favor of the nerf suggested in this thread, but I had to chime in to say that it is pretty obnoxious to white knight into Magicka build thread recommending that they dodge roll to avoid wrecking blow.

You need to balance stamina and magicka in this game, where did devs said you need to put, or must put all points to magicka? In fact, if you practice a bit more, if you just move around your enemy correctly and they cant use WB, you can just back off or move to the side of the enemy.

Btw, if they make WB bashable, block should be breakable, I hate nothing more than those block dudes and you are supposed just to watch when they stop blocking.

ZOS_RiedL · October 2015

Hello,

We have moved this thread to the correct category.

Thanks for your understanding.

Molag_Crow · October 2015

Good suggestion. Increase the cost each time they spam it, yes. I got hit 10k then 8k by it last night lol.

Emma_Overload · October 2015

jcasini222ub17_ESO wrote: »

Change knockdown to basic interrupt, keep damage the same, people won't be frustrated beyond belief by being cc locked. I'm starting to think this is an unfixable problem (Across the board) so just adjust skills instead. Much like they changed the original awesome cinder storm and fiery grip (I now play a temp, they came for fiery grip and I was taken)

This is a good idea! Not only would this address many of the PvP complaints, but changing the knockdown to interrupt instead would actually make WB a better skill for PvE. Most of the PvE mobs worth killing seem to be immune to knockdowns anyway. An interrupt, on the other hand, can be valuable in many situations, including boss fights.

Sarousse · October 2015

CrowsDescend wrote: »

Good suggestion. Increase the cost each time they spam it, yes. I got hit 10k then 8k by it last night lol.

Time to wear heavy armor.

timidobserver · October 2015

Sausage wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Sausage wrote: »

Dodge roll through them to behind, simple. Not to mention most WBs spammers has very high CP whats going to be fixed in Orsinium.

I am personally am not in favor of the nerf suggested in this thread, but I had to chime in to say that it is pretty obnoxious to white knight into Magicka build thread recommending that they dodge roll to avoid wrecking blow.

You need to balance stamina and magicka in this game, where did devs said you need to put, or must put all points to magicka? In fact, if you practice a bit more, if you just move around your enemy correctly and they cant use WB, you can just back off or move to the side of the enemy.

Btw, if they make WB bashable, block should be breakable, I hate nothing more than those block dudes and you are supposed just to watch when they stop blocking.

I am not sure if you quoted the right person or not. I didn't say that wrecking blow should be bashable. In fact, in the specific post you quoted, I went out of my way to say that I don't want it nerfed. I don't want wrecking blow nerfed or changed at all. The only thing I personally want is a physical damage reduction CP line(like elemental defender/hardy) and cc immunity to work right.

I simply responded to say that it is obnoxious to suggest that dodge rolling is what magicka builds should use to defend against wrecking blow. No amount of build balancing is going to give you enough stam to use dodge roll as the primary defense against wrecking blow on your magicka build.

revonine · October 2015

The reason there's so much "spamming" of skills is because of this paches damage reduction for some classes you HAVE to spam to do decent damage to your opponent. I would blame that and not certain skills.

Skinzz · November 2015

Why do people have such a big issue with wrecking blow? I rarely get hit by it more than once in a fight. It's so easy to avoid and counter.

damtotb16_ESO · November 2015

TayDibiase wrote: »

Seeing how spamming wrecking blow is the new flavor of the month and its a cheap tactic when used against magicka builds, i have a proposal. How about making wb cost a set percentage of "available" stamina. For example if it costs 30% of available stamina, the 2nd and 3rd time would cost so much you wouldn't see 5 wbs in a death recap, and a magicka build would have a better chance against it. I've used immovable brute against the 1st hit, blocked 2 hits and have been pretty much defenseless against the next 5 wb spams. This must be addressed.

No it must not.
I play magica NB in LA and I easy beat WB spammers, and I not even cloack.
Opinions are appreciated but everyone has one and this is clearly l2p issue
SO PLEASE ZOS DON"T NERF WB

Sheezabeast · November 2015

Seriously though a 2H weapon needs a strong ability! Just like the bow has Snipe.

Kronuxx · November 2015

Wrecking blow is easily avoidable if you are on the receiving end. It really is. And if you are on the delivering end, do you know how frustrating it is to land WB when it takes a sec cast time (which is a long time in a pvp fight) and it gets canceled multiple times because the other players moves around? Yeah, it's very frustrating. I'd love it if they gave class skill stamina alternatives as a high damage outputting skill to use rather than WB.

Minno · November 2015

Sheezabeast wrote: »

Seriously though a 2H weapon needs a strong ability! Just like the bow has Snipe.

Strong - yes agree. Cheap cc immunity bypass bug - can be adjusted.

Also, regarding cooldowns, welcome to the world of templars lol

Waffennacht · November 2015

Destro staff needs a strong ability, imo

Angarato · November 2015

it should cost alot more stamina agreed, should also use the stamina if wb is unsuccesful

frozywozy · November 2015

Kronuxx wrote: »

Wrecking blow is easily avoidable if you are on the receiving end. It really is. And if you are on the delivering end, do you know how frustrating it is to land WB when it takes a sec cast time (which is a long time in a pvp fight) and it gets canceled multiple times because the other players moves around? Yeah, it's very frustrating. I'd love it if they gave class skill stamina alternatives as a high damage outputting skill to use rather than WB.

There is. Bitting Jabs and Surprise Attacks hit as hard as Wrecking Blow, if not more. Plus, Surprise Attacks don't even have a channeling or casting time and can be casted from stealth (cloak) in some scenarios.

Problem is that DKs and Sorcs don't have a high hitting stamina morph ability, yet.

americansteel · November 2015

TayDibiase wrote: »

Seeing how spamming wrecking blow is the new flavor of the month and its a cheap tactic when used against magicka builds, i have a proposal. How about making wb cost a set percentage of "available" stamina. For example if it costs 30% of available stamina, the 2nd and 3rd time would cost so much you wouldn't see 5 wbs in a death recap, and a magicka build would have a better chance against it. I've used immovable brute against the 1st hit, blocked 2 hits and have been pretty much defenseless against the next 5 wb spams. This must be addressed.

and sorcs use shield stacking and spam crystal frags, stam users use wrecking blow seems to me that is balanced. what is not balanced is cyrodiil and the champion point system. warlord?

Valen_Byte wrote: »

As a DK, if I go magica build...I have Flame lash as a damage attack. If I go stamina...I have wrecking blow as a damage attack. That's it...nothing else does any real damage.

Blame Zos...they nerfed me to death, now only have one attack.

im a magic DK myself and having only flame whip sucks. I would to have another DPS magic ability.

Artheiron · November 2015

TL:DR

dumb the game down!

Ezareth · November 2015

As someone who is on the giving end of this as my NB who uses it as their primary DPS and someone who has it spammed against them on his Sorc I have to say that I think it is balanced. It is a very powerful and lethal ability...and it should be because it also has a ton of counters and leaves you exposed every time you use it.

Olen_Mikko · November 2015

What if you just L2P or try to learn counter it.

For example, walk through while WB is being casted. Simple as that.

Don't just run like a fool and spam AoE, observe what is going on around you and you start to see when WB is being casted.

Minno · November 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

As someone who is on the giving end of this as my NB who uses it as their primary DPS and someone who has it spammed against them on his Sorc I have to say that I think it is balanced. It is a very powerful and lethal ability...and it should be because it also has a ton of counters and leaves you exposed every time you use it.

Yup. Though I think they should look at that stun component just in case.

Kutsuu · November 2015

Minno wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

As someone who is on the giving end of this as my NB who uses it as their primary DPS and someone who has it spammed against them on his Sorc I have to say that I think it is balanced. It is a very powerful and lethal ability...and it should be because it also has a ton of counters and leaves you exposed every time you use it.

Yup. Though I think they should look at that stun component just in case.

Agreed on this. WB leaves you vulnerable for a second while channeling it, and the channel can be canceled by walking through. I'm pretty bad, and pretty rusty, and I still manage to avoid MOST WBs used against me unless it's a group fight and I don't notice it coming - which is even more likely to happen with a crystal frag or snipe. The skill should have good reward for actually landing it. I don't use it myself because I'm simply not tanky enough to stand around channeling it.

The primary issue with the WB is that CC immunity is applied after you stand up, and you can be CC'd again during the stand up animation. Some people exploit this (either on purpose or accidentally) and people get pissed at the skill instead of the actual issue that made them mad.

Ezareth · November 2015

Kutsuu wrote: »

The primary issue with the WB is that CC immunity is applied after you stand up, and you can be CC'd again during the stand up animation. Some people exploit this (either on purpose or accidentally) and people get pissed at the skill instead of the actual issue that made them mad.

Yeah I've long said that this needs fixed. It also happens with jabs frequently as well. CC immunity should always be applied on break free from *anything*.

TheLaw · November 2015

I like wrecking blow, it's fairly easy to avoid. It's not easy to use on a skilled player.

Wollust · November 2015

Wrecking blow does not need any changes or fixes. The CC system needs one.

SneaK · November 2015

TheLaw wrote: »

I like wrecking blow, it's fairly easy to avoid. It's not easy to use on a skilled player.

Actually no man. It's CC is bogus and for magicka builds you can't really break free or dodge roll enough to avoid. I have to slot two skills just to counter this one on my mag temp.

cschwingeb14_ESO · November 2015

frozywozy wrote: »

There is. Bitting Jabs and Surprise Attacks hit as hard as Wrecking Blow, if not more. Plus, Surprise Attacks don't even have a channeling or casting time and can be casted from stealth (cloak) in some scenarios.

Problem is that DKs and Sorcs don't have a high hitting stamina morph ability, yet.

Wrecking Blow has a tooltip that is 50% bigger than Surprise Attack.

Not that I have a problem with the damage it does, just the long duration hard cc it has

Kutsuu · November 2015

WB does hit harder than surprise attack, but it's not instant and it doesn't proc major armor debuff or shadow barrier either. There are tradeoffs. I did once enjoy the thought of WB being a CC ability moreso than a main staple of DPS. I'm not entirely sure it should have a CC like it does. For example, maybe the Wrecking Blow morph (with empower) has no CC, and the other morph has no empower but does CC. Then you're choosing between CC and DPS.

zornyan · November 2015

Wrecking blow does not empower itself btw guys, so it's not constantly buffing itself.

You can land an ambush/suprise attsck/ambush in the time it takes to land one wrecking blow.

Jabs isn't really a contender in pvp as 2 out of 4 hits miss more than anything.

It's very easy to counter, just run through the other player again and gain and they'll never land a single hit

k2blader · November 2015

I was curious about WB so I've been leveling that skill on my lowbie NB. No doubt the great players know how to do it right, but I find it difficult to land unless the target is basically CC'd and/or not moving around. When I do have it land I'm always quite excited. lol If there isn't some sort of bugged delay on immunity, I think the skill is OK as is.