A proposal to stop wrecking blow spamming

TayDibiase

Seeing how spamming wrecking blow is the new flavor of the month and its a cheap tactic when used against magicka builds, i have a proposal. How about making wb cost a set percentage of "available" stamina. For example if it costs 30% of available stamina, the 2nd and 3rd time would cost so much you wouldn't see 5 wbs in a death recap, and a magicka build would have a better chance against it. I've used immovable brute against the 1st hit, blocked 2 hits and have been pretty much defenseless against the next 5 wb spams. This must be addressed.

AFrostWolf

The reason we are seeing so much of it is because of the nerf to blocking and dodge rolling. Before you used to use skill to avoid this. Now, you literally only get to block/dodge/absorb 3 hits before you're drained and then just have to eat 5 of them to the face. "Fixed" Perm block/Block casting only to replace it with another problem. They really need to overhaul the combat system and the champion system.

AzraelKrieg

TayDibiase wrote: »

Seeing how spamming wrecking blow is the new flavor of the month and its a cheap tactic when used against magicka builds, i have a proposal. How about making wb cost a set percentage of "available" stamina. For example if it costs 30% of available stamina, the 2nd and 3rd time would cost so much you wouldn't see 5 wbs in a death recap, and a magicka build would have a better chance against it. I've used immovable brute against the 1st hit, blocked 2 hits and have been pretty much defenseless against the next 5 wb spams. This must be addressed.

I proposed this in another topic about Wrecking Blow spamming and how the CC seems to be broken as well. Having the cost scale up akin to what happens with the Streak skill for Sorcs would definitely stop the spam of it since people would actually need to use other skills for once.

Sausage

Dodge roll through them to behind, simple. Not to mention most WBs spammers has very high CP whats going to be fixed in Orsinium.

Vangy

Since u mention magicka I can relate to my sorc. Wb spammers dont kill anything in PVP ( unless thyre against newbs).
Streak thru, drop mines. Watch him crit rush into mines. Slap him in the face with crystal shards. Then notice him stumble around trying to start wb spam again while u drop all ur dots onto him. At this point he is nearly dead and u win.

Changing WB in anyway will simply gut every single stam build out there that is not a nightblade for pve. Stam DKs and sorcs can barely pull 15k dps in deccent gear as it is ( even with WB spam). They need to completely rework the DK skill line for both magicka and sorc and make dual wield actually viable before touching anything to do with the 2H tree.

Gern_Verkheart

You could take the "L2P" advice that templar lovers throw at you when you talk about Biting Jabs/Puncturing Sweep spammers and just walk through the person. Doing that cancels the WB, making them have to recast it with that whole 1 second windup. The biggest mistake that I continuously see people make when I use WB against them, is that they backpeddle or try to run around me. People have good size hit boxes, if you backpeddle WB will still hit you, and I can rotate while casting it, so if you run around me it will also still hit you 90% of the time.

You have to make the ability cancel by walking through me. People who understand this and do it throughout a fight are the ones that always do very well against me.

Valen_Byte

As a DK, if I go magica build...I have Flame lash as a damage attack. If I go stamina...I have wrecking blow as a damage attack. That's it...nothing else does any real damage.

Blame Zos...they nerfed me to death, now only have one attack.

Lyrander

Sausage wrote: »

Dodge roll through them to behind, simple. Not to mention most WBs spammers has very high CP whats going to be fixed in Orsinium.

roll dodge behind them! - yea if you have enough stamina left to roll dodge that is fine.

most of them have many cps? no! not true - everyone can easily spam it. And the few that have 1k CPs or more dont need to perform such cheap tactics ^^ (i can understand why people are spamming it though....it is fun)

TX11

I had my first encounter with a player doing this last night. I could not even get off the ground. it seemed before I could even move I was hit again and knocked back up into the air and on the ground again. I thought we get CC immunity after the initial hit? Why am I repeatedly getting CC'ed when I am in the middle of standing back up from the first one. To the guy that says only newbs get killed by WB. This is not true there is a broken mechanic with the CC immunity and if the player knows how to use it they will kill you before you can even get off the ground due to the fact you are knocked to the ground over and over and over without ever actually getting back up. This was very evident in a video I watched yesterday that someone else had posted with them going through the same thing. There is no way to roll away no way to run away and no way to block every WB. This is because of a broken mechanic not because of "being a newb" or any other reason. When you see suddenly that there are tons more dual wielding players who are spamming the hell out of WB there is definitely a problem. I also find it quite comical the amount of players that just go from month to month playing with the build and the abilities that are most broken and put other players at a disadvantage unless they do the same.

Emma_Overload

Vangy wrote: »

Since u mention magicka I can relate to my sorc. Wb spammers dont kill anything in PVP ( unless thyre against newbs).
Streak thru, drop mines. Watch him crit rush into mines. Slap him in the face with crystal shards. Then notice him stumble around trying to start wb spam again while u drop all ur dots onto him. At this point he is nearly dead and u win.

Changing WB in anyway will simply gut every single stam build out there that is not a nightblade for pve. Stam DKs and sorcs can barely pull 15k dps in deccent gear as it is ( even with WB spam). They need to completely rework the DK skill line for both magicka and sorc and make dual wield actually viable before touching anything to do with the 2H tree.

Agreed to all of this. I think the quickest way to cure most of the WB addicts would be to buff Dual Wield's Flurry (and morphs). I played Stamina on my Sorc the last couple weeks, and the only way to do any reliable single target damage was Wrecking Blow.

AFrostWolf

Gern_Verkheart wrote: »

You could take the "L2P" advice that templar lovers throw at you when you talk about Biting Jabs/Puncturing Sweep spammers and just walk through the person. Doing that cancels the WB, making them have to recast it with that whole 1 second windup. The biggest mistake that I continuously see people make when I use WB against them, is that they backpeddle or try to run around me. People have good size hit boxes, if you backpeddle WB will still hit you, and I can rotate while casting it, so if you run around me it will also still hit you 90% of the time.

You have to make the ability cancel by walking through me. People who understand this and do it throughout a fight are the ones that always do very well against me.

So we could just fix hit boxes. Generally walking away from and rotating around is how you dodge stuff in most other video games. If the skill is supposed to be 5 meters and i run 20 away, I shouldn't be hit.

Alucardo

Solution: Regain 1k stamina while successfully dodge rolling a wrecking blow

Levo18

ZOS is so Slow i think this madness wont be fixed before 2016

SleepyTroll

Why would they nerf the only viable stamina damage ability that 2 classes have? If any thing they should add more damaging weapon skills that aren't channeled or take cast time. I would say class morphs but I personally think all class skills should be magicka.

Sarousse

Explain me, as a stam sorc, what stam attack I can use to do efficient damage ?

Zenimax didn't give me a stamina class attack. Unless they change their mind, I will continue to wreck your face till you disconnect with my WB.

Forestd16b14_ESO

So basically give it the bolt escape treatment. This i can get behind along with giving the same treatment to more skills that would cut back on spamming a lot more if the skills cost a stackable 50% more after each use. But do I see ZOS doing this? Maybe like it is a good idea but you know a lot of players will be crying about it and all that junk.

Also a lot of players are still able to perma block regardless of the "block nerf" and they'll continue to perma block as long as block casting is in the game. Seriously ZOS remove block casting from the game already it is a horrible broken idea. Skills need to be greyed out when blocking and you can not gain block effects when you use a skill and you hit block and just to cut back on macro users you can not start another skill mid animation of a skill you are currently using now.

acw37162

Not sure what classes people play who oppose this stuff but ok....

If your a magica sorc what you suggested Is cool as long as....

Cost scaling increase on curse, crystal frag, force shock, liquid lightening, mines, and whatever the name of your raged execute and its morphs are

If your a Stam or magica night blade.......

Cost scaling increase in ambush, surprise attack, sap essence and morphs, funnel health and any other insta cast spamable DPS move I forgot.

If your a stam or magica DK.....

Flame whip, force shock, flame breath and morphs, and whatever else I missed

Stam or Magica templar.....

Breath of life spamming, shards, jabs scale all of them and whatever else I mentioned


Then for good measure introduce cost scaling for steel tornado, puncture, defensive stance, and spam able heal in the red to staff tree

Then just to make sure make heavy and light attacks cost stamina.

Do all that and that can start the conversation

AzraelKrieg

acw37162 wrote: »

Not sure what classes people play who oppose this stuff but ok....

If your a magica sorc what you suggested Is cool as long as....

Cost scaling increase on curse, crystal frag, force shock, liquid lightening, mines, and whatever the name of your raged execute and its morphs are

If your a Stam or magica night blade.......

Cost scaling increase in ambush, surprise attack, sap essence and morphs, funnel health and any other insta cast spamable DPS move I forgot.

If your a stam or magica DK.....

Flame whip, force shock, flame breath and morphs, and whatever else I missed

Stam or Magica templar.....

Breath of life spamming, shards, jabs scale all of them and whatever else I mentioned


Then for good measure introduce cost scaling for steel tornado, puncture, defensive stance, and spam able heal in the red to staff tree

Then just to make sure make heavy and light attacks cost stamina.

Do all that and that can start the conversation

While those are spammable, none hit as hard as Wrecking Blow except for maybe procced Crystal Frags. Plus none give a weapon damage buff that can be used on a successive use of the same move that Wrecking Blow provides.

TX11

there is no need for any changes to wrecking blow. what needs to happen is a fix for the CC mechanic. I should not be abled to be hit over and over and over when I'm still in the middle of the stand up animation from the first one. I have no control over my character in the middle of this animation. If I am truly getting cc immunity after the first hit why is it that I am repeatedly getting knocked on the ground when I didn't even get up from the last time I was knocked to the ground. Someone posted a vid about this yesterday. It clearly showed that there is a way to take advantage of the animation and continually WB a player onto the ground while they are in the middle of the stand back up animation. The skill itself does not seem to be broken or need any changes. The issue to me is the CC immunity that you are supposed to get for a set amount of time after the initial first knockdown. This immunity is not being given to the player when they are in the middle of the stand back up animation. WB does not seem like the real problem it seems to be something else in the mechanics such as why a person Is not being granted the immunity when they are in the middle of an animation. The players that have learned how this works take advantage of it and that is what is causing the outcry against wrecking blow. But as I said that is not really the problem.

Gern_Verkheart

TX11 wrote: »

I had my first encounter with a player doing this last night. I could not even get off the ground. it seemed before I could even move I was hit again and knocked back up into the air and on the ground again. I thought we get CC immunity after the initial hit? Why am I repeatedly getting CC'ed when I am in the middle of standing back up from the first one. To the guy that says only newbs get killed by WB. This is not true there is a broken mechanic with the CC immunity and if the player knows how to use it they will kill you before you can even get off the ground due to the fact you are knocked to the ground over and over and over without ever actually getting back up. This was very evident in a video I watched yesterday that someone else had posted with them going through the same thing. There is no way to roll away no way to run away and no way to block every WB. This is because of a broken mechanic not because of "being a newb" or any other reason. When you see suddenly that there are tons more dual wielding players who are spamming the hell out of WB there is definitely a problem. I also find it quite comical the amount of players that just go from month to month playing with the build and the abilities that are most broken and put other players at a disadvantage unless they do the same.

That would be great, if any of the people calling for WB nerfs were actually calling for the CC immunity to be fixed. But instead they call for it's damage being nerfed, or a longer cast time, or other nonsense that has nothing to do with CC immunity.

I absolutely agree that the CC immunity from WB is broken, and needs fixed. Other than that: if you want to see less people using WB, then we need other stamina attacks buffed. WB is the only effective stamina attack that we have. Even with it stamina DK, Sorc, and templar builds struggle to break 15K dps. If they nerf WB stamina builds will be completely useless in PvE, and this game will be Elder Staffs Online again like it was at launch.

Jura23

They should make it bashable. THere like no reason WB should be immune to bash when you compare to other skills that can be bashed.

SleepyTroll

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

So basically give it the bolt escape treatment. This i can get behind along with giving the same treatment to more skills that would cut back on spamming a lot more if the skills cost a stackable 50% more after each use. But do I see ZOS doing this? Maybe like it is a good idea but you know a lot of players will be crying about it and all that junk.

Also a lot of players are still able to perma block regardless of the "block nerf" and they'll continue to perma block as long as block casting is in the game. Seriously ZOS remove block casting from the game already it is a horrible broken idea. Skills need to be greyed out when blocking and you can not gain block effects when you use a skill and you hit block and just to cut back on macro users you can not start another skill mid animation of a skill you are currently using now.

No. No skills not even bolt escape should get the bolt escape treatment.... ZOS has a no cool down system yet they pick and choose what skills should get one? Only skills that I should ever not be able to "spam"(we only have 5 skills per bar, less if toggles) is ultimates. Infinite roll dodge could have been fixed by not having the CP star for reduce stamina cost of skills effect it and the CP star of tumbling effect it. Tumbling shouldn't even exist it should be replaced with a reduce physical damage star. And no regeneration while blocking should be replaced with no block casting.

jcasini222ub17_ESO

Change knockdown to basic interrupt, keep damage the same, people won't be frustrated beyond belief by being cc locked. I'm starting to think this is an unfixable problem (Across the board) so just adjust skills instead. Much like they changed the original awesome cinder storm and fiery grip (I now play a temp, they came for fiery grip and I was taken)

olsborg

Wrecking blow is ridiculous. You get hit at a range that seems to be 3 times longer then where your sword tip actually is (yay invisible swordlength) sometimes you get hit even if you dodge. It needs to be looked at for sure.

TX11

people who are saying WB is the problem needs to pay attention the next time they are dealing with someone who uses the move on them repeatedly. The player is taking advantage of the CC immunity mechanic not being applied while the other player is in the stand back up animation. If the WB user times it properly they can knock you on the ground over and over and over and you can not interrupt it, run away or nothing. You do not have control of you character during the stand up animation this is why you cant run or roll or nothing. WB alone is not the problem so calling for a nerf for it is not the solution and buffing other abilities is not going to change this either. The only thing that needs to change is the DEV needs to fix the CC immunity during the animation of standing back up. If this is addressed you will be able to dodge or fight back instead of just lay there getting bounced up and down like a ball.

timidobserver

Sausage wrote: »

Dodge roll through them to behind, simple. Not to mention most WBs spammers has very high CP whats going to be fixed in Orsinium.

I am personally am not in favor of the nerf suggested in this thread, but I had to chime in to say that it is pretty obnoxious to white knight into Magicka build thread recommending that they dodge roll to avoid wrecking blow.

SevrenNiarb

100% agree @TX11... It's not WB that has issues, it's indeed the CC immunity + lag (animations vs. server calculations + other things)

I'm playing a Sorc and feel the pain some light armor users have with WB spam... on the other hand my CF seems to follow players across the field somtimes or nocks em down twice... same for FA with a bow and other things with long animations.

Most of the ppl shout "nerf" way too fast. WB is a symptom not the cause...

UltimaJoe777

You know what? Let's just replace Wrecking Blow's Empower with something completely useless! Would that satisfy everyone?

TX11

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/213831/nerf-i-mean-balance-wrecking-blow-fix-cc-immunity/p1

this is the thread with someone who was investigation wrecking blow. he has updated it recently with vids and such.

Tavore1138

WB hits hard but so do a handful of other skills - it is the CC immunity problem that makes it 'broken'.

Compounded by the block regen and dodge nerfs which make it harder for any melee build to defend against anything much at all.

(note to poster further up - block casting was not fixed because a sorc can still hold block down and spam magicka skills forever because they still regen magicka while block casting - it was a nerf on stamina builds only while leaving the dev's chosen magicka builds with their resource pools untouched)

SleepyTroll

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

WB hits hard but so do a handful of other skills - it is the CC immunity problem that makes it 'broken'.

Compounded by the block regen and dodge nerfs which make it harder for any melee build to defend against anything much at all.

(note to poster further up - block casting was not fixed because a sorc can still hold block down and spam magicka skills forever because they still regen magicka while block casting - it was a nerf on stamina builds only while leaving the dev's chosen magicka builds with their resource pools untouched)

WTF you talking about? Regen magicka while blocking? The only classes I ever see perma blocking now is DK and NB.