On Overall 1.6 Nerf Issue, It's Time To Stand Up And Say "Enough Is Enough"

Joejudas · February 2015

i dont need to read any guides to know that this is taking away my character progression and armor. and telling us to grind cp to gain back lost power after we paid for 10 months to play and progress when there isnt any new content isnt ok.

Joejudas · February 2015

this is serving as a distraction to the real issue of not having any new content. Its also setting the pace for P2W exp boosting items in 6 months.

kijima · February 2015

Joe, and I'm honestly not trying to argue, this is what I've found.

Live = VR14 NB - Can solo a pack Welwas in Craglorn easily

PTS = VR14 NB with no points invested - Cannot solo a pack Welwas in Craglorn

PTS = VR14 NB 70 points invested - Can solo a pack Welwas in Craglorn easily

And if I think about it, probably easier than ever before. I used Welwas as they are easy to find and test with in PvE, didn't grind a damn thing, just used my VR14 live toon on the PTS with no changes in anything, apart from the CP that I added.

I'm not a l33t player, I'm an average player with moments of drunken brilliance and that's about it. (apparently, when I'm drunk and TS I'm hillarious, or so I've been told) I'm only a major in PvP and I haven't finished all of Caldwells Gold yet (don't laugh, I haven't...) I play everyday but I'm limited to time spent, sometimes just for 1 hour. Once or twice a week when life doesn't get in the way, I can manage to get 4-5 hours in during an evening and into the night.

Not even close to being a high level, high end player and yet I can see that I'm not nerfed when I spend points, if anything I'm stronger.

Berinima · February 2015

Are you wearing light armor? Because that was nerfed but this has nothing to do with the champion system. And also you have to adjust your build a little. Lots of your skills have changed. Therefore it is useful to read some guides. You could however do the testing and theory crafting yourself but that would probably take some more time than five minutes right after just you found out that you have to put points in the champion system... I am pretty sure you will soon be able to play all the content again that you have been used to do.

Joejudas · February 2015

its going to take 200 cp at 1 cp every 4 or 5 hours....so no we wont be getting back our power anytime soon. and this still doesnt forgive the fact that they made end game raid armor useless. I dont have faith zeni will make the exp any lower to get a cp either....that would go against making it take to long so they can put exp boosters in the cash shop.

Joejudas · February 2015

im not the only one that feels this way....and i wont be surprised when this hits live and more people join the outcry. This system as it is right now is desgined to let zos make cp boosts in the cash shop a thing. thats all its offering. it will make the player power gap worse than it is now and create an unfair burden on end game players by forcing a very long grind to get back progress. ..people are afraid to speak up because funny things happen to forum accounts when your critical of zos.

WhiskyBob · February 2015

What I'm affraid of are the block costs and tanking early on. Altho it will be a pain getting to get to 75% resistances transfer to shields it might end up quite nice in the end.
All I know - the time to grind Sanctum is now cause after the patch it will be horror.

kijima · February 2015

Joejudas wrote: »

its going to take 200 cp at 1 cp every 4 or 5 hours....so no we wont be getting back our power anytime soon. and this still doesnt forgive the fact that they made end game raid armor useless. I dont have faith zeni will make the exp any lower to get a cp either....that would go against making it take to long so they can put exp boosters in the cash shop.

It's not going to take 200 CP, I'm the same, if not stronger using 70 CP. Explain that one to me...

You have power right now, you have 70 CP at your disposal, you've just chosen not to use it.
Your saying you wont be strong as you were before but by your own admission, you didn't spend all your points.
You've said you won't even bother going back on to the PTS to test things even though you've been given some great advice from a few people.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Flaming]

Joejudas · February 2015

i havent chosen not to use it. I telling you both with and without were tested and its a nerf without 70 cp and its a nerf with 70 cp. Thats also not the point. i shouldnt need to put in extra time gaining more cp to get an equivalent power level. Especially not with the armor nerf and at a rate of 1 per 4 or 5 hours. Do you think a more casual player is going to put in 4 or 5 hours. no they arent...they will gain 1 cp enlightened every 3 days. A hardcore player will still grind 2 or 3 cp a day. The returns arent diminishing enough to matter. The power gap will be gigantic.

Joejudas · February 2015

What was the last 10 months of paying and playing the game for if im being forced to get back stuff i already earned ?

All_Bizniz · February 2015

Panda244 wrote: »

Sharkano wrote: »

Using all the cp points they gave you does not get you close to where you were as a long-playing VR14 in current live. They did not have to push us backwards to reboot the game, and in fact it is contrary to that they told us. Doing so is unnecessary, and hopefully is fixed before it goes live (but I am not holding my breath).

Kudos. This is what I've been trying to say. Either give us more than 70 at the start, or remove the nerf alltogether

couldn't agree more

Alphashado · February 2015

After posting plenty of pics and videos of new Templar Builds proving they aren't even close to nerfed on the PTS, I jumped on a V14 NB Template tonight and was shredding giants at the rate of 12k dps with a DW build. I considered doing the same thing. Maybe making a video or at least posting some pics with FTC numbers and it occured to me... why bother? The people that are dead set on 1.6 being a giant nerf aren't going to be persuaded. They are just going to continue to look at this with blinders on and there is no sense even trying anymore to convince them

There is plenty of proof out there already clearly showing that all you have to do is find the right build with 1.6 and your character can be as powerful or more powerful than it is on the live version. Ignorance will not change this fact.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Flaming]

Spiritreaver_ESO · February 2015

Joejudas wrote: »

I didn't put points into the cp system I wanted a clean comparison as possible. I wanted to compared the live build directly to the PTS one. Obviously puttting points into the passives will improve things. Different people use different passives though. So to get the cleanest comparison of how it translates on a base level...no passives were used.

You have got to be kidding? After all your raging, you couldn't be bothered to even actually test the new system that you think is going to destroy this game? And no, without getting getting ANY numbers from the PTS that actually come from the CS, you didn't really test it.

And you called ME a troll.....

I'm gonna continue catching up in this thread, but dang. I have c/p'd this post on my hd for posterity.

Joejudas · February 2015

On the live server I killed a group of mobs. Logged into the PTS, didn't put the points in got wrecked by a grp of mobs. I put the points in and still got wrecked bythe same group of mobs. So without the points the base stats are a nerf. With the points in the base stats are still a nerf. It will require grinding mobs to get my progression back. Why should we put time in grinding mobs for progress we already got and paid for.

Alphashado · February 2015

Joejudas wrote: »

On the live server I killed a group of mobs. Logged into the PTS, didn't put the points in got wrecked by a grp of mobs. I put the points in and still got wrecked bythe same group of mobs. So without the points the base stats are a nerf. With the points in the base stats are still a nerf. It will require grinding mobs to get my progression back. Why should we put time in grinding mobs for progress we already got and paid for.

You are going to have to come to terms with the fact that your old build sucks now. It's that simple man. A LOT of old builds are not good anymore. But there are a ton of viable new builds. Just do some research man. Accept the fact that you are going to have to change things around a bit rather than clinging to what clearly doesn't work anymore.

You are very clearly basing everything you say on how your old build is working in 1.6
The PTS is full of people using new and changed skills to rebuild their character into killing machines. So you can either join them and get back to kicking ass, or you can keep sitting on the rotting corpse of your old build and pout.

xaraan · February 2015

(Haven't read the dozen pages of this thread, so this is aimed at the OP) -- I partially agree with you. There are some areas where they are nerfing us just to make us work through the champion system to get back to where we were prior to 1.6. I don't think it's as bad as described, but in the areas that has happened, it's pretty crappy.

jaibierwb17_ESO · February 2015

So probably a stupid question, but you remembered to reallocate your passive skill points, not just the CPs right?

Joejudas · February 2015

So we didn't get a reduction in exp cost for cp in pts 1.6.1 so I don't expect we will now. Welcome to an even bigger grind than we had before. Enjoy defending your awful horizontal progression system

Joejudas · February 2015

Also the same things we have been upset about...the EU folks are starting to pipe up about now. Its not just a few of us.

SteveCampsOut · February 2015

All I want to know is will Doshia be back to the point where I'm required to Kyte at least once during the fight?

kijima · February 2015

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

All I want to know is will Doshia be back to the point where I'm required to Kyte at least once during the fight?

How good would that be!

ZOMG she was hard in Beta, remember all the Doshia posts hehehe

Joejudas · February 2015

So all the EU people complaining about the same things we were...are they all angry crazy people also. These complaints we have are real folks.

ZOS_ShannonM · February 2015

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Dazin93 · February 2015

Alphashado wrote: »

You are going to have to come to terms with the fact that your old build sucks now. It's that simple man. A LOT of old builds are not good anymore. But there are a ton of viable new builds. Just do some research man. Accept the fact that you are going to have to change things around a bit rather than clinging to what clearly doesn't work anymore.

I agree with everything you stated here. However, myself and other players may have a difference of opinion if it's worth the trouble. My previously played stamina sorc build is flat out not good anymore. Can I change to a crushing shock/shield stacking/pet type of build that is viable? Absolutely, but consider what that entails.

Utilizing a play style I don't enjoy and wasn't my intention when rolling the class.
Time intensive leveling of ability and skill lines not previously used.
Purchase of expensive materials for a complete armor makeover.
Time spent relearning my character & retraining my programmed responses.

Maybe that is enjoyable for you, but it sure isn't for me. Especially when it has to be accomplished within the same static pve content that my character has already been treadmilling in for the last 3 months and for almost a year as far as Cyrodiil is concerned.

Cuyler · February 2015

kijima wrote: »

Joe, and I'm honestly not trying to argue, this is what I've found.

Live = VR14 NB - Can solo a pack Welwas in Craglorn easily

PTS = VR14 NB with no points invested - Cannot solo a pack Welwas in Craglorn

PTS = VR14 NB 70 points invested - Can solo a pack Welwas in Craglorn easily

And if I think about it, probably easier than ever before. I used Welwas as they are easy to find and test with in PvE, didn't grind a damn thing, just used my VR14 live toon on the PTS with no changes in anything, apart from the CP that I added.

I'm not a l33t player, I'm an average player with moments of drunken brilliance and that's about it. (apparently, when I'm drunk and TS I'm hillarious, or so I've been told) I'm only a major in PvP and I haven't finished all of Caldwells Gold yet (don't laugh, I haven't...) I play everyday but I'm limited to time spent, sometimes just for 1 hour. Once or twice a week when life doesn't get in the way, I can manage to get 4-5 hours in during an evening and into the night.

Not even close to being a high level, high end player and yet I can see that I'm not nerfed when I spend points, if anything I'm stronger.

I think you guys need to go look at the PTS forums and get away from general discussion. There are plenty of people complaining there.

First your talking about a pack of Welwas, they have like zero mechanics, they die when you sneeze on them, and they can be disoriented with a simple block. There is no way that this scenario can be justification for there being no nerf.

Go test some real content, like a trial or dsa and come back here and explain to us how your stronger than you were. You know, like a fight that lasts more than 10 seconds and against a boss that hits for ~25k. Apples and oranges mang. There is no way 70 CPs is making up for what they've taken away.

From lvl1-50 it's a mindless steamroll, there is no skill required. Almost all of the vet zones are the same way until you actually step into a vet dungeon. So it's apparent that you'd feel powerful because your only fighting a pack welwas.

Duccea · February 2015

I admit I didn't read this entire threat now, but this seems the best place to state my concerns without starting a new one about pretty much the same topic.

First, let me say that I was really looking forward to the CP system and a new way to improve my character, and I still like the idea of it very much.

However, after a bit of playing around on PTS and doing some vet dungeons, I am also very concerned about how our characters seem to have gotten a bad nerf and I seriously hope things will get toned down before they hit live.

Right now, the CP system doesn't feel like the new and meaningful way to further improve one's character, as was advertised, but rather than way of grinding XP and thus CP to get back at where you used to be before 1.6 hit. Right now, even with the 70 CP allocated, my character feels ridiuculously weaker than it used to be, and things which I was able to breeze through before have become a challenge again.

Don't get me wrong, I like challenges. I just don't like facing the same challenges over and over and over again. Sometimes, I want to enjoy the achievement that I have mastered a certain piece of content by improving my build and gear and am now able to do it easily. I don't want that enjoyment being taken away from me and being forced to start all over again.
I also see how for a character with lots of CP invested, the current dungeons and trials will become trivial, thus such characters are in need of new challenges which are adequate to their level of power. I don't want to be able to faceroll through everything, after all.

But simply nerfing characters so that existing content which used to be easy is hard again without having CPs invested is not the solution. It's just a cheap way of avoiding having to deal with creating new challenges for characters that have advanced further in the champion system.

Why not introduce some kind of nightmare versions of the existing dungeons which are scaled up to a higher difficulty level and provide some extra loot which only drops there? This would be less work than creating new content tailored to high CP characters from scratch and would give them something to do while some real, unique content for them was being worked on. And low CP characters could still run the normal versions of those dungeons as they used to do without being hit by the nerfbat and being forced to grind their way up to where they used to be.

I really hope that there will be some changes to balancing until this goes to live ... if there aren't, I will try my best to adjust, but if it turns out that I have to spend weeks grinding champion poins by mindlessly whacking at weak(er) mobs until I am able to to the stuff I enjoy doing again, I will seriously reconsider staying subbed after B2P hits.

TL;DR: The nerf issue, as it is right now on PTS, sucks. Please have a look at it again and reajust things so.

Yusuf · February 2015

myrbostadb16_ESO3 wrote: »

The_SpAwN wrote: »

Gemseed wrote: »

Sharkano wrote: »

I love the game, which is why I care. My sole point is this: I can sink all the CP points into any configuration and I STILL cannot come close to performing against the SAME mobs the way I am doing now in live....

THIS IS A GOOD THING!!!

How can this be a good thing??

Because it means the game as a whole might have become more of a challenge for everyone. A lot of people play games to be challenged.

The game still had it's challenging parts, e.g. Sanctum Ophidia or Dragonstar Arena.
If you still want to be challenged play with no armor or solo a groupdungeon on v14 but don't take it out on the rest of the playerbase

AssaultLemming · February 2015

Lithium Flower wrote: »

The nerf is extremely disheartening as an end-game PVER but it's not the most alarming thing for me and my guild mates. The Sisyphean grind to make lost power back up with the grind is what is hugely dismaying.

The main criticism of the veteran system and ESO 1.0 was the veteran ranks standing between people at level 50 and the end-game but in retrospect, having a max rank that is reasonably attainable in several weeks, that places you on an equal footing with everyone else is much more new-player friendly than an endless grind that forever separates long time players with new ones.

The rate of CP acquisition should be adjusted downward drastically. 1 hour of normal play is a run of veteran City of Ash for the average player not 1 hour of mob grinding at Spell Scar in a swarm of batpulse.

1 Hour of normal play is no where close to 400,000 xp. It is closer to 50,000 to 100,000 XP, which is what it should take to acquire 1 Champion Point, less with Enlightenment. It takes 1 million points to level 1 veteran rank, how can a system that replaces 14 of those with hundreds upon hundreds possibly encourage new players from joining and leveling. It will make xp boosts, level boosts, champion point bundles and the like inevitable in the Cash Shop as 'conveniences' just to prevent the hemorrhage of players.

Secondly, the new system is very damaging to the player who enjoys role diversity. Currently, what is a wonderfully enjoyable feature of Live is the ability to easily switch from being a tank to being a damage dealer, from magicka to stamina, from burst to DoTs, from PvE to PvP in a few moments by changing gear and skill load out. It's versatile, it's practical, it encourages end-game players from trying out different roles, builds and combinations. It facilitates grouping up with friends and random people and speeds up the process of finding and setting up a group before getting to play together.

The taking away of power from skills and gear and transferring it to the Champion System cripples this versatility. The amount of champion points needed for a current Damage Dealer to get back to current power levels is bad but for someone like me who regularly does more roles, it's twice as bad on my DK and for my Templar it would be three times as bad - and it helps no one. It isn't an "OP-build" issue, it isn't a "facerolling content" issue, it's not a "godmode" issue. It's about logging into the game and being able to play something quickly and not being bored because you can only do one thing. It's about being able to use all the Bind on Pickup rewards you find and not feeling like most of the drops you get for hard content are useless for your character.

What effects me personally the most is not only the nerf, or the intolerable grind looming beyond 1.6, it's the massive reduction of my playing options. I am going to be disqualified for half the groups I can play with now on my DK, two thirds of spots in groups I can fill on my Templar. I won't be able to make use of most of the gear in my bank.

The minimum that must be adjusted before 1.6 becomes live is an increase in the compensation of champion points to at least double or triple currently promised numbers - AT LEAST 150-250 for VR 14s.

In addition a much lower XP cap for gaining 1 CP to a more rational 50-100k is required.

This. So much this. All of this. This.

nalimoleb14_ESO · February 2015

Dazin93 wrote: »

I agree with everything you stated here. However, myself and other players may have a difference of opinion if it's worth the trouble. My previously played stamina sorc build is flat out not good anymore. Can I change to a crushing shock/shield stacking/pet type of build that is viable? Absolutely, but consider what that entails.

Utilizing a play style I don't enjoy and wasn't my intention when rolling the class.
Time intensive leveling of ability and skill lines not previously used.
Purchase of expensive materials for a complete armor makeover.
Time spent relearning my character & retraining my programmed responses.

Maybe that is enjoyable for you, but it sure isn't for me. Especially when it has to be accomplished within the same static pve content that my character has already been treadmilling in for the last 3 months and for almost a year as far as Cyrodiil is concerned.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^