Does Entropy Rising Get Special Treatment?

Mortosk · June 2014

Vuron wrote: »

I'm in ER.

Anyone that thinks ER gets special treatment or gets to dictate changes is free to read my post history. It will become quite obvious that myself and others in the guild have many of the same issues as anyone else. I have made it quite clear in the PTS forums and general forums what I think about some of the changes and the results of some of those changes. I even made a post shortly before launch stating that I thought every patch for the previous 9 months had made the game worse.

Do you honestly think that everyone in ER supports the game being a light armor and staff game? I'm a damn NB and have even posted builds on how to level using DW and medium armor. You can look at some of our old YouTube videos and streams and you will see people trying to make other builds work. Even Atropos has vids of his Sorc running around with DW. We've had to reroll and respec just like everyone else.

As stated above, certain guilds and play groups are sourced for input and testing in this game. Also stated above was that this is a common practice in many games and I have been in this situation before. Giving feedback, thoughts, bouncing ideas around, and making suggestions doesn't mean for one second that the developers are going to do anything with that information. It is a way for them to gather information in a calm, structured, and organized format. Having different groups of players that represent hardcore, casual, PvP, PvE, etc. ensures they have an appropriate sample.

Does that mean that some people may know of changes before the general population? Yes.

Does it mean that because something was suggested it will be implemented? No.

This new trend of blaming the PTS testers or blaming certain guilds for the faults of this game is ridiculous. The Program Directors, project managers, and developers have their own direction and vision for this game and they seem to be taking a hard line and sticking to it, whether we/I/you agree with it, or not.

I agree with many others that there needs to be more/better communication from the team. The patch notes need details, there should be some form of Dev tracker, perhaps a little feedback in some of the more popular threads, and maybe a state of the game post every now and then. This lack of communcation has been an issue for as long as I've been involved and was a complaint even during early beta and PTS.

Also, "Devs" is not an all-encompassing term. Gina and Jess are not Devs. They don't have the answers that you're looking for. They simply work with what they are given. You can't realistically expect them to go to the managers with every single post topic and reply to ever single thread with a detailed answer.

Would you mind throwing templars a bone next time you talk to them. They obviously listened to some of your nightblade suggestions and plan to buff the class soon according to the road ahead post. But, in that same post, they said nothing about templars being under powered and only apologized for what could have possibly been the dumbest nerf ever, next to restoring spirit, the stealth nerf to Puncturing strikes.

vyndral13preub18_ESO · June 2014

Vuron wrote: »

I'm in ER.

Anyone that thinks ER gets special treatment or gets to dictate changes is free to read my post history. It will become quite obvious that myself and others in the guild have many of the same issues as anyone else. I have made it quite clear in the PTS forums and general forums what I think about some of the changes and the results of some of those changes. I even made a post shortly before launch stating that I thought every patch for the previous 9 months had made the game worse.

Do you honestly think that everyone in ER supports the game being a light armor and staff game? I'm a damn NB and have even posted builds on how to level using DW and medium armor. You can look at some of our old YouTube videos and streams and you will see people trying to make other builds work. Even Atropos has vids of his Sorc running around with DW. We've had to reroll and respec just like everyone else.

As stated above, certain guilds and play groups are sourced for input and testing in this game. Also stated above was that this is a common practice in many games and I have been in this situation before. Giving feedback, thoughts, bouncing ideas around, and making suggestions doesn't mean for one second that the developers are going to do anything with that information. It is a way for them to gather information in a calm, structured, and organized format. Having different groups of players that represent hardcore, casual, PvP, PvE, etc. ensures they have an appropriate sample.

Does that mean that some people may know of changes before the general population? Yes.

Does it mean that because something was suggested it will be implemented? No.

This new trend of blaming the PTS testers or blaming certain guilds for the faults of this game is ridiculous. The Program Directors, project managers, and developers have their own direction and vision for this game and they seem to be taking a hard line and sticking to it, whether we/I/you agree with it, or not.

I agree with many others that there needs to be more/better communication from the team. The patch notes need details, there should be some form of Dev tracker, perhaps a little feedback in some of the more popular threads, and maybe a state of the game post every now and then. This lack of communcation has been an issue for as long as I've been involved and was a complaint even during early beta and PTS.

Also, "Devs" is not an all-encompassing term. Gina and Jess are not Devs. They don't have the answers that you're looking for. They simply work with what they are given. You can't realistically expect them to go to the managers with every single post topic and reply to ever single thread with a detailed answer.

He is in ER get him! Just kidding.

Very well said.

Catches_the_Sun · June 2014

I don't have an issue with it as long as ER isn't influencing the development of the game to suit their Guild's own PvP tactics.

crislevin · June 2014

Catches_the_Sun wrote: »

I don't have an issue with it as long as ER isn't influencing the development of the game to suit their Guild's own PvP tactics.

I don't think you need to worry that, I don't believe ER has that much power over the devs.

and thats not to say I like the devs. This game is in some sad stats precisely because of them.

bugs, massive nerfs, really uninformative tooltips, pathetic designs here and there, and useless patch notes.

Gilvoth · June 2014

tamriel foundry gets a whole lot more then just the things you mentioned. i know for a fact they get alot more.

Aenthel · June 2014

I'm just curious though, how many high-ups in those "selected few" guilds are any type of Heavy/Medium Melee users, just purely out of curiosity, that is all.
Considering even in the new Veteran dungeon shown by DEVs, no one played any Melee besides the tank, which did nothing but taunt & block, they surely must be aware of many, many problems that this game has.
So all that we wonder, as a community I'm sure, is what the hell these guys are thinking? Seriously?

Mystborn · June 2014

Catches_the_Sun wrote: »

I don't have an issue with it as long as ER isn't influencing the development of the game to suit their Guild's own PvP tactics.

Like when they spoke out strongly (and publicly) against AoE caps...

ZoS didn't change their stance.

[quote="Mortosk;990990
Would you mind throwing templars a bone next time you talk to them. They obviously listened to some of your nightblade suggestions and plan to buff the class soon according to the road ahead post. But, in that same post, they said nothing about templars being under powered and only apologized for what could have possibly been the dumbest nerf ever, next to restoring spirit, the stealth nerf to Puncturing strikes.
[/quote]

I can assure you that ER are communicating their feelings that Templars need help and that ZoS understands that Templars need help. Unfortunately I think that Templars, as a class have been less rowdy than Nightblades have about their issues.

Mystborn · June 2014

Aenthel wrote: »

I'm just curious though, how many high-ups in those "selected few" guilds are any type of Heavy/Medium Melee users, just purely out of curiosity, that is all.
Considering even in the new Veteran dungeon shown by DEVs, no one played any Melee besides the tank, which did nothing but taunt & block, they surely must be aware of many, many problems that this game has.
So all that we wonder, as a community I'm sure, is what the hell these guys are thinking? Seriously?

The GM of ER (Atropos) is a medium armour dw user and is keenly aware of the imbalances. The rest of the guild are a mixture of people who wear light armour and use a staff because they want to and people who wear light armour and a staff because the feel they have to because of the imbalances. ER are not lobbying for more powerful casters they want stamina and melee to become viable an equally as powerful as casters. ZoS knows the issues as well, they can see from the feedback and the forums and the internal metrics that certain playstyles are not performing at the right level currently. I think it's just going to take time and a lot of small changes in a lot of areas to balance things the right way.

$infraction2008b16_ESO$ · June 2014

xaraan wrote: »

Well, I wouldn't say ER alone gets special access, but many large serious guilds speak directly to the developers yes. This does suck for the handful of people that are not in those types guilds and might have good ideas, but tbh many of the suggestions random players make aren't very good.

But many the suggestions these guilds make aren't that good either for the majority of the community. Just because someone games at a more professional level doesn't mean changes should be made/balanced around them. In fact there's a whole ton of reasons why developers shouldn't bow to people like these especially for competitive reasons.

xaraan · June 2014

infraction2008b16_ESO wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

Well, I wouldn't say ER alone gets special access, but many large serious guilds speak directly to the developers yes. This does suck for the handful of people that are not in those types guilds and might have good ideas, but tbh many of the suggestions random players make aren't very good.

But many the suggestions these guilds make aren't that good either for the majority of the community. Just because someone games at a more professional level doesn't mean changes should be made/balanced around them. In fact there's a whole ton of reasons why developers shouldn't bow to people like these especially for competitive reasons.

I don't doubt there can still be bad advice (I touched on that at the end of my post) but they also don't just blindly listen to one guild or all of them. I've seen ER complain about several things on their forums or in vids that don't go their way. Even if one guild was trying to sway things their way in an underhanded way, the other 30 guilds they talked to might make that obvious.

But getting good feedback is important. If you ask an average player playing a stamina built NB, he may go on and on about how NB is broken, when in reality its the stamina part that is broken (like I said, not counting a few skills that need fixed). So if devs listened to this, they would be fixing the wrong thing and buffing stuff that doesn't need buffed. Where experienced players know the difference and offer better advice. OR if the goal is too improve end game, then you need feedback from a lot of V12 players that play everyday and have played all the content and with various builds, not just someone still at level 30 that has no idea what vet content is like or what regular content is like with other builds.

Not saying these guilds have all the answers, and it doesn't seem like ZoS thinks they do, but you need to narrow your focus of who you get feedback from or you just get noise.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom · June 2014

Hi folks,

Wanted to pop in here and offer some clarification. The Community Team does indeed participate in regular voice chats with some of our most active guilds. The guilds we're currently in regular talks with are a good mix of PvP, PvE, and casual. In addition to reading the forums and fansites, this helps us to better understand what the main issues are and their severity, where the best opportunities for improvement are, and identify what everyone wants more details on. More often than not, we hear the same things over and over (such as Templars, weapons skills/stamina builds, and heavy armor needing improvements and in some case fixes, changes needed to make PvP more rewarding, etc.)

These talks do not replace or hold more value to us than what we read here on our official forums, and are often done in the late evening on our own time. It adds another layer of valuable insight, and gives us the opportunity to ask about things in-person that we need clarification or more details on.

All that said, we are doing what we can, when we can, to get in here and answer your questions more often.

Mortosk · June 2014

Aenthel wrote: »

I'm just curious though, how many high-ups in those "selected few" guilds are any type of Heavy/Medium Melee users, just purely out of curiosity, that is all.
Considering even in the new Veteran dungeon shown by DEVs, no one played any Melee besides the tank, which did nothing but taunt & block, they surely must be aware of many, many problems that this game has.
So all that we wonder, as a community I'm sure, is what the hell these guys are thinking? Seriously?

I'm guessing just 1 guy. Their tank. Bob, the tank. Poor Bob.

As for the rest, TOGA Party!!!!

RadioheadSh0t · June 2014

It's not just ER, many PTS guilds still have discussions with ZOS.

rophez_ESO · June 2014

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi folks,

Wanted to pop in here and offer some clarification. The Community Team does indeed participate in regular voice chats with some of our most active guilds. The guilds we're currently in regular talks with are a good mix of PvP, PvE, and casual. In addition to reading the forums and fansites, this helps us to better understand what the main issues are and their severity, where the best opportunities for improvement are, and identify what everyone wants more details on. More often than not, we hear the same things over and over (such as Templars, weapons skills/stamina builds, and heavy armor needing improvements and in some case fixes, changes needed to make PvP more rewarding, etc.)

These talks do not replace or hold more value to us than what we read here on our official forums, and are often done in the late evening on our own time. It adds another layer of valuable insight, and gives us the opportunity to ask about things in-person that we need clarification or more details on.

All that said, we are doing what we can, when we can, to get in here and answer your questions more often.

So, Jessica, you have these talks and hear about hot issues. Are any words spoken back? Maybe the devs say something like, "Yeah that's something we're working on." If so, even something that simple would be very nice for the rest of your community to hear. I've seen countless posts about stamina build problems, and not one official response acknowledging the issue. That's just one topic. We need more communication from actual devs. No offense, Jessica, you're great. Maybe even if they could officially communicate to you and you could pass it on.

What else is being worked on? The road ahead letters from Firor are too vague and way too infrequent!

tordr86b16_ESO · June 2014

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi folks,

Wanted to pop in here and offer some clarification. The Community Team does indeed participate in regular voice chats with some of our most active guilds. The guilds we're currently in regular talks with are a good mix of PvP, PvE, and casual. In addition to reading the forums and fansites, this helps us to better understand what the main issues are and their severity, where the best opportunities for improvement are, and identify what everyone wants more details on. More often than not, we hear the same things over and over (such as Templars, weapons skills/stamina builds, and heavy armor needing improvements and in some case fixes, changes needed to make PvP more rewarding, etc.)

These talks do not replace or hold more value to us than what we read here on our official forums, and are often done in the late evening on our own time. It adds another layer of valuable insight, and gives us the opportunity to ask about things in-person that we need clarification or more details on.

All that said, we are doing what we can, when we can, to get in here and answer your questions more often.

Mortosk · June 2014

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi folks,

Wanted to pop in here and offer some clarification. The Community Team does indeed participate in regular voice chats with some of our most active guilds. The guilds we're currently in regular talks with are a good mix of PvP, PvE, and casual. In addition to reading the forums and fansites, this helps us to better understand what the main issues are and their severity, where the best opportunities for improvement are, and identify what everyone wants more details on. More often than not, we hear the same things over and over (such as Templars, weapons skills/stamina builds, and heavy armor needing improvements and in some case fixes, changes needed to make PvP more rewarding, etc.)

These talks do not replace or hold more value to us than what we read here on our official forums, and are often done in the late evening on our own time. It adds another layer of valuable insight, and gives us the opportunity to ask about things in-person that we need clarification or more details on.

All that said, we are doing what we can, when we can, to get in here and answer your questions more often.

OMG. She said the T word! I thought that was forbidden for community managers, unless specifically used to inform us of a nerf.

I'm flabbergasted.

Edit:

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom +1 Awesome from me.

AinGeal · June 2014

If you have time to talk on private forums, then you have time to talk on the official forums. Would you agree that the official forums should get preferential treatment and not the private forums?

Now I can certainly see the point of leisure time vs working time. You deal with it at work, you shouldn't have to deal with it at home. You are entitled to have a personal account both in game and on private sites. However, if you insist on talking about it at home too, then I reiterate the first paragraph of this post.

dcam86b14_ESO · June 2014

I've hated ER from the very start of beta, most of their members are ego driven and are very negative when they aren't streaming. In no way would I ever let that guild represent me as a gamer EVER! This issue has gone on long enough and ZoS ignoring a huge array of guilds that could give input other than ER. ER only takes this info and gives out a little and of course they are the ones exploiting mechanics and finding the "way around" things until someone else does and they report it bc it no longer is theirs to control. Its total BS. I don't support anything they do including FTC.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom · June 2014

AinGeal wrote: »

If you have time to talk on private forums, then you have time to talk on the official forums. Would you agree that the official forums should get preferential treatment and not the private forums?

Now I can certainly see the point of leisure time vs working time. You deal with it at work, you shouldn't have to deal with it at home. You are entitled to have a personal account both in game and on private sites. However, if you insist on talking about it at home too, then I reiterate the first paragraph of this post.

Ain, I personally hop into a voice chat channel with some of the guilds for one hour, every two weeks, on my own time in the evenings. It's not on their forums.

Lalai · June 2014

As others have stated, this sort of thing isn't uncommon in MMOs. I also know for a fact it's not just Entropy Rising that gets these sorts of interviews. There are a few different guilds that get them.. all of which have been very active within ESO.

They are also not talking to devs directly anymore than the forum talks to devs directly. They're talking through the community managers like Jessica. I also know that even those these interviews take place, and feedback is given, changes are not always made on that feedback.. and from the ones I've actually seen/read transcripts to a lot of the big questions on the forums are asked.

This is basically just another way for them to contact their player base, at least to me. I don't see it as any guild getting special treatment. Yeah, it'd be cool to talk to Jessica directly or whatever.. but having an option sessions where anyone from the forums could join would be a disaster. Everyone talking over each other, and some very rude people probably doing nothing but cussing. That always happened on the twitch live streams for FFXIV, which is why they stuck to forum questions (which they cherry picked, so not even all of those got answered).

I actually see more posts from community reps in these forums answering questions than I have for most MMOs I've participated on the forums for. They can't answer everything.. they may not even being able to answer everything due to NDA type stuff. One of the bigger problems is more likely that the dev tracker in it's current state is not very nice. It only seems to show a limited amount of posts, so things fall off it rather fast.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom · June 2014

rophez_ESO wrote: »

So, Jessica, you have these talks and hear about hot issues. Are any words spoken back? Maybe the devs say something like, "Yeah that's something we're working on." If so, even something that simple would be very nice for the rest of your community to hear. I've seen countless posts about stamina build problems, and not one official response acknowledging the issue. That's just one topic. We need more communication from actual devs. No offense, Jessica, you're great. Maybe even if they could officially communicate to you and you could pass it on.

What else is being worked on? The road ahead letters from Firor are too vague and way too infrequent!

Sometimes we're able to provide confirmation that we're working on something, yes, and it is one of our immediate goals to provide more frequent updates about what we're working on, even if we can't provide meaty details yet. We agree that much more is needed. Within the next week or two, we should have that effort up and running.

Worstluck · June 2014

AinGeal wrote: »

If you have time to talk on private forums, then you have time to talk on the official forums. Would you agree that the official forums should get preferential treatment and not the private forums?

Now I can certainly see the point of leisure time vs working time. You deal with it at work, you shouldn't have to deal with it at home. You are entitled to have a personal account both in game and on private sites. However, if you insist on talking about it at home too, then I reiterate the first paragraph of this post.

At least in my experience, developers don't care for official forums. They like fansites, as that is what they are, sites where fans congregate. The developers much prefer dealing with fans of the game, who have good opinions about the game, than people on the game's official forum. The official forums usually have more people with grievances, and issues with the game, whereas those people are not welcome on these fansites. Whether that is right or wrong, I have no opinion.

The only game I've played at length that does not operate like this is Eve Online, where the developers interact with people on the official forums on a daily basis.

It would be nice if ZoS had someone who was more intimately involved in the development process, that could provide us with insight about the future, why certain changes were made, etc, rather than the middlemen we have now.

SirAndy · June 2014

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

These talks do not ... hold more value to us than what we read here on our official forums

Unless y'all are robots that simply can't be true.

Direct human interaction will always carry a lot more weight than simply reading about issues on a forum.

Even if you're consciously trying to give both the same attention, that's just not how human beings work.
;-)

Phantorang · June 2014

So this is why Templar wont ever get any boost, cuz of some stupid guild with a hotline to the devs. The members of Entropy Raising probably knew from the get go that Templar was going to be shafted, they need 25% of the community to eat dust...

Sorry, its NOT the guild ERs fault, any of it, they are just doing what everyone else would do, we are to blame ZoS if we want to blame anyone at all.

The issue is that a select few got access to important game mechanics, while it should be available to everyone.

kewl · June 2014

Thank you Jessica.

AinGeal · June 2014

Worstluck wrote: »

AinGeal wrote: »

If you have time to talk on private forums, then you have time to talk on the official forums. Would you agree that the official forums should get preferential treatment and not the private forums?

Now I can certainly see the point of leisure time vs working time. You deal with it at work, you shouldn't have to deal with it at home. You are entitled to have a personal account both in game and on private sites. However, if you insist on talking about it at home too, then I reiterate the first paragraph of this post.

At least in my experience, developers don't care for official forums. They like fansites, as that is what they are, sites where fans congregate. The developers much prefer dealing with fans of the game, who have good opinions about the game, than people on the game's official forum. The official forums usually have more people with grievances, and issues with the game, whereas those people are not welcome on these fansites. Whether that is right or wrong, I have no opinion.

That's quite the wild assumption. Especially since being a fan or not is unrelated with having gripes or not.

The only game I've played at length that does not operate like this is Eve Online, where the developers interact with people on the official forums on a daily basis.

It would be nice if ZoS had someone who was more intimately involved in the development process, that could provide us with insight about the future, why certain changes were made, etc, rather than the middlemen we have now.

Yeah, I've spent some time on the EVE forums. Perhaps too much time, since my posts come off as being a bit harsh to some (referred to as "carebears" in EVE) but that's how it is on the EVE forums. It's HTFU or GTFO, LOL.

My point is mute anyway. Unless ESO has an official vent (or equivalent) channel....

Worstluck · June 2014

Also, on the topic of conveying worthwhile information, it almost seems like even within ZoS there is very poor communication.

I was lead tester at my last job for a small software and website development company. The programmers were under constant deadlines and under so much pressure, that they rarely communicated with each other. When I received something to test, it was like pulling teeth to find out all the changes. The programmers did a poor job of telling me what they changed, so testing suffered. End result was a lot of bugs and issues slipped through, because the testers weren't getting good information about what they should be looking at. It was frustrating to say the least.

Just look at the patch notes. They are very vague and so far there have been quite a few major changes to the game that with either missing initially, or just flat out not included.

Vuron · June 2014

Phantorang wrote: »

So this is why Templar wont ever get any boost, cuz of some stupid guild with a hotline to the devs. The members of Entropy Raising probably knew from the get go that Templar was going to be shafted, they need 25% of the community to eat dust...

At the beginning, Nightblades outnumbered the other classes in ER. With most of us NB, one of the guild leaders a Templar and the guild founder a Dual Wield/Medium Armor Sorc, you can pretty much bet that we're trying to get the game balanced. I think everyone is begging for Templars to get some love.

Phantorang · June 2014

alexandru987eb17_ESO wrote: »

Not affiliated in any way with them but its better they do it, i mean look at the forums...

Most things suggested here are not balanced in any way and are usually suggested by people who did not play the "other side" to know what is what...

If a power gaming guild doesn`t know more about the game compared to the casual people then who does and who should talk? They actually have good player that know what their class can and can`t do and as far as i could see form their posts/talks they are honest about it...

Just look at what people ask here like staffs using stamina or light armor losing its cost reduction and other junk...

Also, in the end, its ZENIMAX who does the actual changes... they take from here/other forums what they need.

It was ES(as far as i know) that found builds allowing you to always have an ultimate up... then told ZENIMAX so they could correct that as it was not intended.

Either way, it should be done in every game: get the guild(s) with a lot of experienced players to talk about what they like and don`t like... or do you want them to talk to the guys asking for staffs to use stamina?

The issue is that the game mechanics information is exclusive to them, Entropy Raising dont have any obligation to forward this to the community. One would assume that important game mechanics were available to everyone, not just a select few in some guild..

Kudos to Entropy Raising though, for actually getting any info at all, sucks though that the rest of us are left in the dark.

Stonesthrow · June 2014

This whole thread makes me giggle… conspiracy this, privileged that.

If you think that ER gets all their ideas implemented, special treatment in-game or some kind of special bag of loot in the mail every week for giving their opinions on things in the game, you are mental. <semi-sarcastic>

Jess says they are going to work at communicating with the community more in the coming weeks, give her the benefit of the doubt.