Very Interesting - Some Zenimax Business News

ShedsHisTail · June 2014

HandofBane wrote: »

Falmer wrote: »

This isn't surprising. Customer Service call centers are way overstaffed to provide for all the launch issues and massive influx of new subscribers at the start. That many people aren't needed once the population stabilizes and there is only a steady flow of new sign-ups and issues.

As someone who worked at a call center many years ago... You always over-hired when there was an expected spike in calls. Better to be prepared to handle the volume rather than get caught short and have to spend a week training and playing catch up.

While this may hold true under some circumstances, I want you (well everyone) to think back over the past two months. How many times have we had threads pop up where people used the ingame "call me back" option to sort out issues that ended up posting here because they had not received such a call back for several hours, if not multiple days? The only way they got any kind of support was a moderator here seeing their post and filing a separate ticket/flag to get someone to contact the player directly then?

If they had such an overabundance of staff that they needed to send everyone home after only showing up for half an hour, that kind of return time on tickets to get issues resolved should not exist in the first place. Yet it did, we have threads that can be dug up with minimal effort to prove so.

Dunno, I don't read German or French threads; do you?
Since those would be the most relevant to this topic.

crislevin · June 2014

traigusb14_ESO2 wrote: »

Dunno, they seem to be hiring a lot of people...

http://jobs.zenimax.com/search

Second column, right side, check only the Zenimax offices... hit search.

well, Zeni does have more diverse products than ESO alone, you know.

HandofBane · June 2014

traigusb14_ESO2 wrote: »

Dunno, they seem to be hiring a lot of people...

http://jobs.zenimax.com/search

Second column, right side, check only the Zenimax offices... hit search.

Hiring for Senior Quality Assurance Engineer. Well that might explain why so much broken crap makes it through the patches and onto live...

Lalai · June 2014

Talemire wrote: »

Temporary or not, there's still a respect to be had for these workers. Three weeks then let go is ludicrous and grossly unprofessional. Was it wrong to let them go? No - It was wrong to hire them in the first place. There's not a trace of regard here for these people's lives, families, etc. People are not like Peons where you can just group select them and execute them by pressing "delete" when they have no more use. I don't know a single person who would have taken this job knowing they would only be there for a few weeks. This whole situation is ethically messed up.

That I can definitely agree with. This type of thing actually happens far to often, especially with call centers and temp help. Some sort of notice definitely should have been had, sadly when you're dealing with NDA and releases (such as console stuff).. a lot of times there's little to no warning. They let people off the same time announcements go public so as to avoid leaks in information. It's very much so a crappy way to treat people.

The whole "this means the end of the game" stuff I disagree with. You didn't post that, of course. We really don't know what it "means" though, aside from Zeni wanted to save money. Whether that's because the workers were hired to support something that ended up getting delayed, or Zeni is short on funds, or customer support isn't as busy as it has been.. we don't know.

Mablung · June 2014

Lalai wrote: »

The whole "this means the end of the game" stuff I disagree with. You didn't post that, of course. We really don't know what it "means" though, aside from Zeni wanted to save money. Whether that's because the workers were hired to support something that ended up getting delayed, or Zeni is short on funds, or customer support isn't as busy as it has been.. we don't know.

Logical deduction however leads one down the obvious path that the company is not meeting goals/expectations. 3 weeks into employment and hundreds of people are let go. If they were indeed customer service that is more telling than letting programmers go. It says to me that they are not concerned with what issues the player base is having and that could very well be due to goals/expectations drastically changing or the realization that the game is not going to recover the negative press and word of mouth out about it now.

Soliduparrow · June 2014

The fact is that they hired 300 workers for a six month contract. Then 3 weeks later they cancelled the contract. That can literally only mean two things:

1. The first month subs came back drastically less than they had hoped for

or

2. The managers have no ability to accurately forecast their resource needs while running the company.

Both of those scenarios are really bad for the future of the game. And honestly, if this has nothing to do with subscription numbers like many of you are suggesting, it is actually worse for the future of the game because it shows the managers have no clue how to run a company.

You guys should pray that this is due to terrible sub numbers because that is something that can be overcome by competent leadership.

Lalai · June 2014

Mablung wrote: »

Lalai wrote: »

The whole "this means the end of the game" stuff I disagree with. You didn't post that, of course. We really don't know what it "means" though, aside from Zeni wanted to save money. Whether that's because the workers were hired to support something that ended up getting delayed, or Zeni is short on funds, or customer support isn't as busy as it has been.. we don't know.

Logical deduction however leads one down the obvious path that the company is not meeting goals/expectations. 3 weeks into employment and hundreds of people are let go. If they were indeed customer service that is more telling than letting programmers go. It says to me that they are not concerned with what issues the player base is having and that could very well be due to goals/expectations drastically changing or the realization that the game is not going to recover the negative press and word of mouth out about it now.

My logical deduction leads me elsewhere, actually. The jobs were temp, the article talks about two weeks of training, and three weeks into employment. That means two months into launch (since this was over the past two months).. Having worked in a call center I know you ramp up on employees before the launch, not during.. which leads me to suspect that these guys were hired to support the console release, and get a little bit of experience with PC customers prior to console going live. Console was delayed, and as we know.. little to no information on it was actually leaked leading up to the announcement. It would make perfect sense (though again, I disagree with it morally) for them to lay off the people hired to support the console launch, and then do hiring again closer to console release.

That's not saying you can't be right. I know as much as you do.. and I have my own personal bias from my own life experience, and my experience in game (which tends to differ from that posted on the forum for this game).

ShedsHisTail · June 2014

Lalai wrote: »

Talemire wrote: »

Temporary or not, there's still a respect to be had for these workers. Three weeks then let go is ludicrous and grossly unprofessional. Was it wrong to let them go? No - It was wrong to hire them in the first place. There's not a trace of regard here for these people's lives, families, etc. People are not like Peons where you can just group select them and execute them by pressing "delete" when they have no more use. I don't know a single person who would have taken this job knowing they would only be there for a few weeks. This whole situation is ethically messed up.

That I can definitely agree with. This type of thing actually happens far to often, especially with call centers and temp help. Some sort of notice definitely should have been had, sadly when you're dealing with NDA and releases (such as console stuff).. a lot of times there's little to no warning. They let people off the same time announcements go public so as to avoid leaks in information. It's very much so a crappy way to treat people.

The whole "this means the end of the game" stuff I disagree with. You didn't post that, of course. We really don't know what it "means" though, aside from Zeni wanted to save money. Whether that's because the workers were hired to support something that ended up getting delayed, or Zeni is short on funds, or customer support isn't as busy as it has been.. we don't know.

And this is how it happens:

Head of HR: "We got a big console release on the horizon. Hire 300 CS reps and train them up."

(One Month Later) HR Rep: "Done!"

Head of HR: "Excellent. Boss, Customer Service is ready for console release."

Console Dev Team: "Wait! We're not ready. Seriously, it's gonna be like Christmas."

CEO: "Push back console release."

Head of HR: "Boss says consoles are being pushed back. Turns out were don't need those folks after all.

HR Rep: "Crap..."

tawok · June 2014

Doomsay all you want, this game was made by console players for consoles, and that will be the golden era. Those of us in the master race will have to be patient for this game to get out of beta.

Evergnar · June 2014

So let me get this straight:
Zos plans ahead and trains a bunch of temp people for initial release just in case they get swamped or are needed. They then aren't needed, for whatever reason, and are let go. A bunch of scrub, temp jobs mind you.

Ulvich · June 2014

I still say it's too early to jump to any conclusions. Does anyone know what these people were hired to do?
While the ship does have a lot of water in the bilge it hasn't sunk yet.

Saerydoth · June 2014

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Swtor did the same thing . Ironicaly in ireland as well. Belfast i believe. Roghly 6weeks post launch. Not a good sign.if we see them retract promised content it will be a sure sign s F2p hybrid model in the cash shop is coming and the milk factory has begun just like the hutt expan being taken away from subs and offered as dlc

Same with TSW, customer service were first canned.

As a counter-example though, Blizzard let a TON of customer service people go a few years ago, and WOW didn't go F2P.

Blade_07 · June 2014

c0rp wrote: »

Are people in this thread just ignoring the fact that TEMPORARYS were let go. When ZoS starts laying off SALARIED employess you can start doomsaying.

But it said that they were let go before the contract was up. So, they didnt keep their side of the contract. Sounds a bit to hard to be true cuz dont they have the right to sue them for breaking the contract?

Fuzzylumpkins · June 2014

This was a large portion of the team set up for the EU servers that should have gone live last month and to act as a support network for the console servers also here in the EU that ended up being put on hold. (IMO indefinitely)

Console release being put on hold and no EU server going live to support those of us over here (still constantly plagued with awful latency issues due to being mislead over getting a EU supported server) made these jobs redundant. At least for the time being.

If zos can recover from the hefty bruise left from the subpar live release of ESO for pc, then these jobs will most likely be brought back in 6 months. We can all see the reality of, if they weren't needed now, they will not be needed then and zos will be weighing loss/ profit and costs that would be incurred by moving ahead with live release, whether is could be salvaged or most loss in the future.

The Republic of Ireland has many tax breaks that are beneficial to large companies which is why we have so many large companies here that ship to/through us and is no less the same reason ZOS has a base of operations here in the business park next to a few other large companies. The B&O mentioned in the story is a store of ours that North Americans would know as a Home Depot.

Blade_07 · June 2014

c0rp wrote: »

michaelpatrickjonesnub18_ESO wrote: »

It's a garbage game. What did you expect...

Need more firings. But higher up.

Garbage enough you are still here 2+ months after launch eh?

Sure he can still be hanging out in the forums hoping that they will fix the game that he spent his hard earned money on. And to just keep up on whats going on really. I would. Specially after dropping down $80 on this damn screwed up game!

ShedsHisTail · June 2014

Blade_07 wrote: »

c0rp wrote: »

Are people in this thread just ignoring the fact that TEMPORARYS were let go. When ZoS starts laying off SALARIED employess you can start doomsaying.

But it said that they were let go before the contract was up. So, they didnt keep their side of the contract. Sounds a bit to hard to be true cuz dont they have the right to sue them for breaking the contract?

Most contracts have some manner of default terms built in.
I'm sure these folks all received some manner of early-severance package.

tawok · June 2014

Talemire wrote: »

Temporary or not, there's still a respect to be had for these workers. Three weeks then let go is ludicrous and grossly unprofessional. Was it wrong to let them go? No - It was wrong to hire them in the first place. There's not a trace of regard here for these people's lives, families, etc. People are not like Peons where you can just group select them and execute them by pressing "delete" when they have no more use. I don't know a single person who would have taken this job knowing they would only be there for a few weeks. This whole situation is ethically messed up.

Temps, interns, and contractors get no respect, and typically no benefits. You know what to expect going in as a temporary worker. For every instance where a temp is let go early, there is one that stays twice the duration of their contract, and some even get hired in. Win some, you lose some. Don't like it? Find a permanent job.

edit: a word

Liquid_Time · June 2014

Blade_07 wrote: »

c0rp wrote: »

Are people in this thread just ignoring the fact that TEMPORARYS were let go. When ZoS starts laying off SALARIED employess you can start doomsaying.

But it said that they were let go before the contract was up. So, they didnt keep their side of the contract. Sounds a bit to hard to be true cuz dont they have the right to sue them for breaking the contract?

"Contract" is often thrown around to loosely when referring employment.

Most contracts are written with multiple fail safes that allows the employer to end the contract with little effort and reasoning. You would be stupid not to...

cjmarsh725b14_ESO · June 2014

The article says:

One employee told this newspaper that he was hired in March with around 200 other workers on six month contracts, but has now been let go.

'In April, the company said it wanted 200 more workers. They went through a week of training, worked for two weeks and were let go. These would have been people taken in on two to six-week contracts.'

So which is it? 6 months or 6 weeks?

Rocksteady · June 2014

Blade_07 wrote: »

c0rp wrote: »

Are people in this thread just ignoring the fact that TEMPORARYS were let go. When ZoS starts laying off SALARIED employess you can start doomsaying.

But it said that they were let go before the contract was up. So, they didnt keep their side of the contract. Sounds a bit to hard to be true cuz dont they have the right to sue them for breaking the contract?

Poor people usually don't have the resources to take on large companies like this over something arguably trivial. They probably got some sorta severance package and a good reference. I highly doubt the just got chased off the property with pitchforks and whatnot.

nerevarine1138 · June 2014

Take off the tinfoil hats people. Companies let temps go all the time. This isn't news.

Jimm_ay · June 2014

They were people who complained about bugs...

c0rp · June 2014

Ohioastro wrote: »

Its the same names posting the same doom and gloom. At this point I'm honestly starting to question their motives. Games always have a rush at the start followed by a steep initial burn rate. They have temp employees for the same reason that shops have them at Xmas.

cjmarsh725b14_ESO wrote: »

The article says:

One employee told this newspaper that he was hired in March with around 200 other workers on six month contracts, but has now been let go.

'In April, the company said it wanted 200 more workers. They went through a week of training, worked for two weeks and were let go. These would have been people taken in on two to six-week contracts.'

So which is it? 6 months or 6 weeks?

The whole article is filled with inconsistencies, which is one reason I dont even care that some TEMPS were let go from a company.

driosketch · June 2014

The console version was supposed to launch in June. These appears to be temp customer service workers. Launches always see a spike in customer service tickets. Since console launch has been pushed back, they found themselves with a glut of CS temp, and let them go.

It doesn't take a detective to figure that much out.

cjmarsh725b14_ESO · June 2014

c0rp wrote: »

Ohioastro wrote: »

Its the same names posting the same doom and gloom. At this point I'm honestly starting to question their motives. Games always have a rush at the start followed by a steep initial burn rate. They have temp employees for the same reason that shops have them at Xmas.

cjmarsh725b14_ESO wrote: »

The article says:

One employee told this newspaper that he was hired in March with around 200 other workers on six month contracts, but has now been let go.

'In April, the company said it wanted 200 more workers. They went through a week of training, worked for two weeks and were let go. These would have been people taken in on two to six-week contracts.'

So which is it? 6 months or 6 weeks?

The whole article is filled with inconsistencies, which is one reason I dont even care that some TEMPS were let go from a company.

Yeah, to me it looks like one guy got fired and went to the local paper. I think I'm gonna wait for more info before passing judgement on this one.

Bromburak · June 2014

Temporaries ... As well postpone start for consoles. No one needs them on the paycheck.

No matter what industry, welcome to reality in a workers world ...

wrlifeboil · June 2014

Saerydoth wrote: »

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Swtor did the same thing . Ironicaly in ireland as well. Belfast i believe. Roghly 6weeks post launch. Not a good sign.if we see them retract promised content it will be a sure sign s F2p hybrid model in the cash shop is coming and the milk factory has begun just like the hutt expan being taken away from subs and offered as dlc

Same with TSW, customer service were first canned.

As a counter-example though, Blizzard let a TON of customer service people go a few years ago, and WOW didn't go F2P.

Blizzard let go the CS reps after WoW subs peaked. The biggest difference I noticed before that RIF was the dropoff in players complaining about being hacked. The catalyst probably was the authenticator which Blizzard started using in 2008. The culture in WoW shifted from 'Blizzard let your account get hacked! Blizzard fix your security!' to 'why didn't you have an authenticator on your account?'

Anyway, just anecdotally, EU players in eso didn't post that much to the CS forums as I pointed out a while ago. Some thought that EU players mainly posted to the English forums. If that news article is true, it turns out that people in the EU aren't that into eso or at least not into eso as ZOS/Bethesda anticipated. Score one for anecdotal evidence.

Rubberlad · June 2014

Evergnar wrote: »

So let me get this straight:
Zos plans ahead and trains a bunch of temp people for initial release just in case they get swamped or are needed. They then aren't needed, for whatever reason, and are let go. A bunch of scrub, temp jobs mind you.

Yes and no. Your post (like many others here) is interpreting this news out of context – and many are using this news to spell doom and gloom for the game, or justify their renewed calls for the game to go free-to-play (or buy-to-play as TSW has shown that’s also a viable option) all of which is completely unjustified (for now). Let’s use what *other* information we know and look at this news development another reasonable way:

1) These were temporary contractors – not full-time employees. Temporary resources are just that – temporary – and there is no guarantee for continued work unless the contract was written duration-specific (which most contracts for contingent labor usually aren’t).

2) It’s likely these contractors were brought on board to provide customer support for the console versions of ESO due to launch in June 2014 (in addition to possibly bridging customer service needs for the PC platforms). Now that the console version has been postponed for several months, there’s no need for these types of contractors at this time (but that’s not to say these contract positions won’t open up again in future when the console version is ready to go live). Hence why those spots were cut now; but could still come back at a later date when absolutely needed.

3) Cutting temporary contract/customer support spots is not the same as cutting permanent staff positions on the development team. If/when we hear that dev team positions have been cut, then you’ll have reason to cry doom (or “go f2p now!”) however Zenimax is not like most other gaming companies. They aren’t likely to rush to judgment on certain issues due to player base pressure (whether the issue is staffing changes, future content development options, or soliciting feedback with regards to improving player retention). Player feedback is welcome – but it’s most definitely not the driving force behind the company’s business model for any game they make (whether single-player or multi-player).

4) The latest “Road Ahead” letter makes the mistake of saying “ESO is a living, evolving game, and it will continue to be one as long as you, our community, continue to support it.” That is a very interesting statement to make – and can be incorrectly interpreted as either a plea for players to stay subscribed and show their support and/or a warning to stay subscribed or else the development flow of new content may change dramatically. In fact, it’s a very humbling and appreciative statement – everyone at Zenimax knows what’s at risk if the game underperforms and they’re showing their heartfelt appreciation for the playerbase who’ve come this far with the new IP by offering up a “without you, ESO wouldn’t exist” show of support for the fans – which is absolutely the right thing to do.

5) Because the console version of ESO has been delayed by several months, this change in the development workflow will naturally impact both demand for customer support and the timeline for rollout of future development content across all platforms. It’s just the nature of the beast – as the experienced MMO player knows from Champions Online (which delayed its launch its initial launch date then ultimately dropped the console port version of the game) and DC Universe Online (which choked PC-based content development in order to stay current with PS3 console development – which is now the driving force for new content on the PS4).

With all these bullet points in mind, I believe that ESO is not going away anytime soon, nor is it hemorrhaging PC customers (although I’m sure some have left due to bugs/class imbalance issues – but whose to say they won’t come back when future patches/content arrive, or may port their subscriptions over to the console version once its available?). Rather, lower PC subscription numbers may prove to be a secondary “success” benchmark when compared to greatly-improved console subscription numbers within the next 6 to 9 months or whenever the console version of ESO launched.

Zenimax has invested a lot of time, money and resources in the ESO IP and I do not believe they have any intention of pulling the rug out from under the main development team or the game’s faithful subscribers – however contracted labor brought into to leverage customer support needs as another matter. Again, with no console port coming to market for the next 6 to 9 months, there’s absolutely no need to pay temporary contracts now to provide customer support for a console gaming component that isn’t ready/available yet. If these contract resources are still available down the road, I’m sure Zenimax will be glad to hire them back – especially as they now have customer support training under their belt (and in the meantime, I’m sure there are other game development companies out there who will be glad to hire on these candidates – especially now that another company has paid for their training).

So IMHO, I say don’t hold your breath waiting for ESO to go F2P anytime soon (because that's just misguided and wishful thinking). In a year or so’s time ESO *might* go buy to play (like TSW) but the F2P business model really goes against everything Zenimax has done for its other IP brands – like Dishonored, like Fallout and like previous Elder Scroll titles. ESO is a good game already with many future opportunities to achieve greatness in the years to come. Whether or not you choose to buy in now or buy back in later is entirely up to you; I’m definitely in it for the long haul and I can’t see wait to see what else the road ahead will bring.

Ker.Rakb16_ESO · June 2014

Do you really think that ZO didn't know about the console delay until May? If the team responsible for the console port is even remotely well managed, they would have known about missing their deadline (by 6+ months, no less) at least a couple of months in advance.
Not to mention that they immediately came out with that "switch from PC to console for 20 bucks" scheme that would realistically have taken at least a couple of weeks to get pitched, analysed for feasability, and approved by management.

There would have been no reason to hire CS reps for the console release in April unless there was some serious mismanagement behind the scenes.

Personally, I think player retention past the free month was not at all what ZO expected; they would have realized that in early May. That's why the EU branch went from 400 to 100 employees within the past month.

Rubberlad · June 2014

Ker.Rakb16_ESO wrote: »

Do you really think that ZO didn't know about the console delay until May? If the team responsible for the console port is even remotely well managed, they would have known about missing their deadline (by 6+ months, no less) at least a couple of months in advance.

There would have been no reason to hire CS reps for the console release in April unless there was some serious mismanagement behind the scenes.

*** happens - and you'd be surprised how long it takes one internal management system (like HR, like contingent laborsourcing) to catch up with strategic changes in game development decided at the executive level (including a console port delay) which may go against daily operational decisions that have already been made by lower project management. It's just the nature of the interdepartmental beast when doing business.