Absinthe wrote: »

I apologize if this hasn't been mentioned before as I tend to see the tone of the thread and skim to the last page. But the vr levels are there for you to get gold and items. Mainly the items are there for you to have the ability to deconstruct and/or research the traits. And let us not forget about the skyshards and SKILL POINTS!

I recently helped a fresh vr 1, she had only minutes before defeated Molag Bal, and within 2 hours she was vr2. She did not accept a single vr1 quest. The two of us killed every world boss, dolmen, and public dungeon up into vr 3 zones. Now she is vr4 and completing vr2 quest lines.

Moral of that story? This is a MMO. If you wish to solo (I am mainly a solo player btw) then know that your leveling process will be longer in the veteran ranks unless you are clever.

Here is my advice to you: once you enter a new zone look for a group that will kill all world bosses, dolmens, and public dungeons within that zone. That is 1/2 a vet rank right there. Ideally have someone run you through vet 1-5 zones and kill all of the above and you will be close to rank 3.

Level smart - not hard....

Is this true for others, kill world bosses, dolmens and public dungeons and you will level very quickly? I'm doing all of the VR quests and taking a week to go between each veteran level, including exploration, crafting, some dolmens and some world bosses and most public, solo dungeons, but primarily solo play with occasional pickup groups for the dolmens and world bosses. I like to hear the level smart ideas that are working.

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

they have no end game thats why they designed it the way they Did VR are a cheap way to lengthen game play to give them time to develop and end game.Currently the game will chase its own player base off even the hard core solo ist and Die hard skyrim fan. the Pure MMo player wont make it through VR10 unless they find a efficent exploit to by pass this horrible barrier.

Play with a friend or 2 the VR content. You finish it quickly and easily that way.
Solo as little as possible.

Rembrandt wrote: »

- get an online map before you enter a new zone
- skip sidequests, go straight through the main storyline
- do ALL anchor and worldboss events in a zone, better yet get a 4-12 man group that farms it all in one swoop. considerable xp boost for little effort
- do every public solo dungeon, first completion rewards bonus xp
- get all skyshards and explore every landmarks and wayshrines in the zone (again, bonus xp)
- don't be shy to rush the zones a little. you can always do zones 1-2 vet higher than you and still get full ep for quests, anchors, worldbosses, etc..
- do all private dungeons with handpicked groups (assuming you are ready for it) quests and first completion reward again bonus ep
- banished cells are easy and short. skip sidebosses and go straight for the end. decent amount of xp/hour if your group is good. if you reach vet7+ you can do the same with wayrest sewers or darkshade caverns


If you follow those rules you can get pretty quickly to vet7-8 and complete all the zones for the other 2 factions.

The greatest timesink are the sidequests which reward almost no xp whatsoever and are mostly for immersion and flavour. You can still do them after you reach vet10

yes this is true, DUngeons, archors and world bosses and POI give more exp but when i was vr1(450k to lvl) i did every poi on the map and only got maybe 40% into vr1
so even if u do every poi u still need more exp to lvl

God (a deity) forbid people actually read something before posting a response... *insert air raid sirens* Yes, this is a "wall of text", otherwise known as "a posting of collective thoughts by someone, me, who has spent time researching and reflecting upon personal experiences over a large amount of time on the subject". If a response is given, provide the writer (me) with a substantial piece of constructive feedback, please. I'm really trying to put all the pieces together as to just what the hell is going on with MMOs. More importantly, classic titles whom we (gamers) have come to love and respect, but that those studios (their respective titles) are now being tarnished by early releases and poor design/ implementation planning (lack thereof).

That said, and on a somewhat relevant scope... I get it, many humans don't like to read lengthy posts on forums anymore, as it takes work and effort. They want, too often, everything done for them which boils down to: The easy and convenient method(s). To each their own however, I do have to point out the poison and flaw in that attitude and how ironically(?) or not, it's the very same related attitude flaw that has seeped into (now plaguing) MMORPGs this day; not to mention, has done so to them over the past several years.

It's the "easy button", the "shortcut" or, as I like to think of it, developmental laziness.

I read, quite often, and I appreciate constructive feedback, valid arguments, and hearing people's opinions and thoughts on a given subject. That said, I would rather this doesn't turn into a pissing contest over feelings of folks being butt-hurt and the point many of us are trying to make, I'm trying to make, gets lost or obscured. There's enough people that are more interested in putting something down for reasons that they don't understand, take time to understand, have little to no knowledge about, and/ or it doesn't benefit them in any way. Let's not be those people, for one moment in time, and try and learn something here?

Put bluntly, if you've nothing informative and/ or constructive to say that is relevant to the topic, please exercise some self-control. (Respectfully bow out of posting a response). "In fact, Peregrin Took, it's probably best you don't say anything at all." ← Applies, because → You may not even be at the right age (of the same generation) to be able to understand what I'm talking about here. That's not your fault, take a breath, this is not about you, it's about ESO and the problem(s) with MMORPGs that use the "easy button". You were born later than me/ some of us, but still and by all means read on. Maybe, by putting our thoughts together on this seemingly sensitive subject matter, we can learn something interesting and new(?)


There is an interesting yet deeply upsetting trend that I've seen that is constantly rearing its ugly face over and over again. For many past years and present included, it's involved gamers dropping their hard earned(?) green on a new title claiming to be an MMO. Often times, lately anyways, titles that were once outside the genre of MMO are finding that life breathed into them...and it's failing, miserably. (Star Wars The Old Republic, anyone, to name a popular brand that tossed its hat into the ring...and never picked it up again).

As a harcore gamer of MMORPGs since the days of the classic ones such as UO, EQ, AC, SWG, L2, it's scary to have to ponder the thought of, "When is the mundane/ easy button and 'cater to casual gamers' days going to ever end?" Is there a brighter future in sight for this genre or, rather, should it just be put out of it's misery once and for all? In fact, the very stapling of "MMO" to any title does nothing for my excitement or interest levels anymore; as it used to do wonders during those titles of long ago. Why? It's not that I am getting burned out on the genre, but perhaps the genre (itself) is getting burned out? Perhaps... Remember the "go-to" standard games of passing time, years ago, with friends? Sure you all do! Those run-of-the-mill World War II era first-person-shooters that swamped store shelves for the better part of 10 collective years in the past. MMOs, like WWII FPS, are now a dime a dozen. What's troubling is that not every game that claims to be a MMO is actually worthy and deserving of applying that genre label to their title; of being an MMO. Am I right? I think so and here's why... history repeats itself.

If you're one of those old school generation MMORPG players here, you know just what it is I'm talking about. We've been chomping at the bit to get our hands on something that involves: skill, patience, tactics, teamwork, and above all... hardcore dedication/ commitment. What many are sick and tired of, it seems, are these titles claiming to be MMOs (promises of all the trimmings players expect their avatars and an MMO to have), but that they take anywhere from a few days to a few weeks to master/ level cap in. The problem here, with these quick and easy MMOs (spawning quick and easy flames of anger) are maybe, just maybe, "us"! Perhaps we need to finally just retrain our thoughts on this. Admit that our pleas for a return of a classic formula are now getting snubbed like that of the casuals who have, arguably, affected the direction for which audiences titles are marketed towards. C'mon, casuals, you cannot argue that one damn bit, really, you cannot. Look at the classics and requirements for master them. Now look at the latest releases (the majority of them, even) and you tell me I'm smoking what I'm selling. Yeah, I didn't think so.

For so long have I and a great many of my friends (others, maybe you reading this) have been associating the acronym MMO to mean: massive amount of time sunk into leveling my character, gearing up, and the moment I master/ gear up, if I ever do before the next expansion hits, another expansion hits. Maybe we've reached the end of this train ride...

What's wrong with that expectation though? More importantly perhaps is when did these expectations and assumptions start? (Ask yourselves this question and think on it) For me, it was (and how I miss) EverQuest. The experience of ever-questing. At the slight mention of grinding in a title today, a lot of player's immediately resort to taking up arms and complaining about the monotony of it and how "It's not fair to pay the same amount of money as others and not experience all the game has to offer". Um, welcome to a thing called "Life". (It's kind of a big deal too, life) I have to laugh at this... sorry, casuals, but thanks for the laughs (non-insulting mind you). I can't hate or be angry at you for it, you just don't know... weren't there. We're all born into this world, but we're not all born equal. Such is life. I get out of life what I put in it. Games are the same. People...complainers, should just get over themselves and realize the irony and contradiction in their argument about "not fair".

Yet! And, while it's their right and a justifiable argument to gripe about how, "it takes too long to get anywhere/ level cap and the progression it too slow" in titles these days... their complaints still blow my mind. (Valid as they may be) Why? It's casual gamers and the market/ publishing studios catering to their concerns that is one of (not the only) cause for a once beloved genre to sink into the mud with those eight-hour-beat-it first-person-shooter titles. MMORPGs are supposed to take a massive amount of time to complete. Right? I mean, that's what I've been accustomed to for many, many years of playing them. It's why so many MMO gamers keep jumping ships from title to title and it did make me stop and wonder, "Why the hell are people not hanging their hat somewhere permanently anymore?" The market is saturated with polished turds, that's why. (And a turd, while polished, is still just a turd) The only up-side I've gotten from trying and popping smoke on so many MMOs over the past several years has been the saving grace of getting a free month to play before immediately nixing my subscription. Forever.

It's the same reason I'm not sticking around ESO, more than likely. As much as no one likes to grind or take months, maybe year(s), to rise to glory in an MMORPG, we cannot deny those formulas from classic-old MMO titles worked so well. A fact that cannot be denied. Fact = cannot be proven false. Take a look at subscriptions over the course of those "classics" first few years and that statement speaks for itself. Look at the addictive nature and stories behind one of them: http://www.researchgate.net/publication/225104080_EverQuestIts_Just_a_Computer_Game_Right_An_Interpretative_Phenomenological_Analysis_of_Online_Gaming_Addiction

Or go read up on how Koreans were killing themselves because they were playing Lineage for such extended periods of time.
Grinding, while painful, can be hugely successful (at killing too, it seems )

I'm not saying "grinding is what made the games so successful." No. I'm sure friendships that formed were and still are very much a viable reason! But how were those friendships formed? Through hardship. You're not getting #### on your own if you solo!, should come to mind for you old-schoolers. Get a group, make friends, make a guild, raid, get loot/ gear up and prepare for next expansion. EQ has, what, 15 expansions out now(?) and still people play. People still go back to it. Laugh if you want, next-gen gamers who eat up the "easy button" in latest titles simply because "it has great graphics", but I really think you're either (A) missing the point... and/ or... (B) are part of the "casual gamer" problem that conflicts with the, "...expected hardcore nature of what a MMO should be." (There's just no pleasing you, Mr. Powers!)

To those snorting about the WoW references, and those that would about my bringing up games such as Ultima Online, EverQuest, Lineage II, Star Wars Galaxies, and Asheron's Call... Do yourself a favor and take a moment and think, "Why the hell would he/she keep mentioning those games?!", before you voice your opinion on them. There are really good reasons and justifications behind why some of us people mention these games still. Why we keep going back to them. Why? Those games had it all and they worked to have it and keep it right. Sure, they didn't please everybody, but it they left such an impression on the community that we're still bringing them up, it has to get the hamster running in the wheel, right? Sure, while not perfect, but my gawd EQ still has more options (from player character creation to end-game content and all in between) than so many other of these so-called (modern) "MMOs" do. It's hilarious. It's sad. It's pathetic.

Let's take steps backwards as we move into the future and make advancements. Massive Online Contradiction, is what modern MMOs should be categorized as.

The "old school" MMORPGs gave players more content to experience, in my opinion, over the course of their "vanilla" release and expansions for such titles; most notably EverQuest did. They (expansion) only further build upon a proven working formula of 450,000 active subscribers at one point during vanilla phase. That number, I'd bet, is(?) and may be overshadowed now by some titles, but I'm arguing about longevity here. The life cycle of software and a title that, obviously, all of us give a crap about. We wouldn't be here if we all didn't like this game, didn't like to play it, and/ or didn't want it to succeed. Right? We're all, at the very least, on the same page here with that respect...a community. No MMO will survive long without one. And I don't care if you have a doctorate in calculus/ advanced math or a GED in general mathematics... 450,000 is no small number. The game world (of EQ) was flourishing so well that the economy of the game was, well, see the link... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/1899420.stm

Of course being addicted helps, but how do you successfully addict players in a game? Verant let the players do it to themselves, to each other, after they forced people into cramped spaces and had them grind many months of their lives away (not just for levels and loot). This single act forced players to communicate with each other in order to help pass the time, not just get information. People, there were areas of the game you couldn't get into unless you got your name on a "waiting list". (One person in a dungeon group would record your name to a list. This group would never cease to work that spot(s), although players would cycle in and out. When your name was up, they'd whisper you, "Spot open now"). If that doesn't make you shake your head and/ or laugh... well, you had to be there!

This is not really present in any MMORPG I have played, since the classics, this form of "prolonged player interaction and deep level of camaraderie". This hurts us, the community, because we're not forming meaningful relationships. Sure, you're guild may have 500 number strong. (Proud of you, that's quite an accomplishment?) But tell me, of those 500, how many are actually made from a lot of time spent and quality interactions? How many of you actually work together and do things together...as a whole 500? I bet... not all 500. Hey, anyone can recruit from zone to zone to build a strong guild, but if you know anything of how MMORPGs work and communities prosper... quality over quantity keeps people coming back. You might rake in a ton of cash for your title, but if you offer players little to no incentives to keep playing, even the most loyal will fold their cards and cut their losses.

It's the players dangling the carrot of "eliteness" for other players that worked wonders for EverQuest and that I do not see much of, or too little of, in recent MMO titles. There was so much loot in EQ that (practically) at any given level, you were wishing you had enough money under your belt to purchase and equip it. Even if only for one level, (yeah, there was that much) and then immediately replace it with something else one level later, because your friend or another player ran by with something that looked uber; and you inquired as to the nature of his/ her uberness. (If you've never played those games before, you're probably struggling to understand how this concept worked so well and what it really did for the community, but bear with me...we're almost over the wall.

I cannot recall for the life of me a single MMO/ MMORPG that I have played since my time spent on those classics (Everquest, Lineage II, and SWG (Star Wars Galaxies), UO (Ultima Online), AC (Asheron's Call)... to name a few as example... wherein it took me a little longer than a week to level cap. Truly, it shocks me! Every MMORPG I have played since the days of those titles, I have breezed by on leveling and was left with nothing but "Do "x" thing to earn/ save a form of currency/ points. Do this day after day, for weeks on end and then buy a piece of gear." Wash, rinse, repeat. No thank you. You, sir/ ma'am, are so wrong forcing that down players' throats. Epic fail.

Players shouldn't be logging in for just a few moments of time to just do "x" quest or dungeon and then log out, because they're out of options/ time and/ or on a lock out. This_kills_a_community and we should all exercise common sense here and know that: no community = no players = no revenue = no expansion + no software updates and support = dead title. If no one's logging in to play because everyone blew through levels/ is capped and have done their "dailies/ weeklies"... do you, as a developer, honestly expect people to stay and keep playing?!

No incentive to be online, play, interact with players, earn loot (not buy it from a damn vendor), well then, players will pop smoke and call the medevac. And we're all right in doing so. Stagnation kills, evolution grows.

Poor/ little/ little-to-no incentive, and/ or not enough content to players (or content too easily beat) is a fail in any game. Story or not. Let's be honest here... we all may like/ love a game for story, but if we're here to play an MMORPG (the word "online" is in there), we're here to play it with others and achieve greatness together. What is greatness in an MMORPG? Power.

The bottom line here is: Loot, cash, friendships, ability to experience all the game has to offer. I don't play MMORPGs for a "story". MMORPGs do not need stories, do they? I don't think so. I believe the players are those stories. Telling tales about victories and defeat at the hands of mobs during raids and the finding/ winning of epic loot. It's what we, gamers, sit down at diner tables to talk and brag about to one another with. Gamers, as we are, love creativity and being able to stay busy in a game and out of game, right? We certainly love talking about games. Forum, here, anyone?

In order to do so, keep us playing and talking, we need incentives that are both meaningful and logical in our continued progression towards obtaining power. Personally, I don't think it should be attainable by every player. Companies have to see it by now... catering to middle ground (hardcore and casual) is seemingly/ arguably worse than catering to just one side. There's too much "try to please everyone" going on in game development studios these days. So much, in fact, that around 35 of my close friends who play MMORPGs are all flocking back to EQ, because at least it presents a challenge/s. And, ladies and gentlemen, nothing easily obtained is ever worth owning...let alone bragging about. Not ever. 450,000 couldn't have been wrong

When a game takes a few hours or days to level cap in, honestly, why complain about their being nothing to do after? Did we not see that coming? Oh the irony of that statement will have heads struggling to wrap around it. "There is no spoon", anyone?

I get the argument though, and wholeheartedly agree with all you complaining about "nothing to do". Here we are a great many years after those old-school MMORPGs were released and are we wrong to think that, "Over the course of that time, developers would have/ should have learned valuable lessons and followed in the footsteps of proven formulas over the years of those classics." No, you're not. We're not. So then what the hell is going on, developers?

Pardon the brash statement to follow...

I'm patiently waiting for a company to take their balls back into their own hands and remove them from the care of "corporate's" (paycheck writers).

Indie games... Maybe we should be supporting more Greenlight/ Jumpstart projects? Make our own? Sure, why not. (I'm actually in my 3rd year of video game design for this reason) People who pay developers, doubtful they know what's best about video game development, and just because I brush my teeth does not mean I'd make a great dentist. Get over yourselves, publishing studios, you do not always know what is best.

There is something to be said about those old school titles though and I think those of us lucky enough to have played them during their glory days, we can all agree upon this:

They figured out what the hell players wanted and delivered, for the most part, because they weren't trying to cater to casual gamers and hardcore gamers EQ was a harcore game. Lineage II? Hardcore. Star Wars Galaxies? Hardcore. (Do you, casuals, see the trend here?) Lots of invested time = MMORPG.

I'm not saying it's the proven method and way to go, not even saying that games that take more time to beat are better than any other else. I'm saying.... in a MMORPG, you cannot, as a development studio, expect to charge people a monthly subscription for a title they master in as much time as it takes to beat Halo 2. MMOs are not FPS games... are not, are not, are not.

There were (still are) more options across the table in those games of old than 99% of these new titles "claiming" to be MMORPGs released over the past several years.

Why? What's the root of the issue here? I was taught two lessons the hard way that I'll never forget. The root of all evil is money and those greedy enough to pursue any means necessary to get more of it.

It has to be money, right?

Draw in more players by dumbing-down the required time and skill needed to progress so that "everyone can be a top player" and experience all that the title has to offer. (Sound familiar? If you're an U.S.A. citizen, you've heard this type of propaganda you're whole life) Everyone can be a winner! Yeah...right.

Well, that adage is fine and dandy for some of us, but not all MMORPG players are "casual players" and not all MMORPG players should be able to reach end game and stay there. Darwinism, anyone? Can't argue that. Evolution wins out. There are, as much as this may hurt feelings, those of us in life that will never reach all our dreams and goals. Why should video games be any different, certainly when many of the titles are modeled after real-world aspects such as: physics, commerce, community, economy, infrastructure, and so on.

There's a very thin, razor's edge, line that development studios have to walk when tailoring a MMORPG to an audience's needs and wants. The process is arduous and slow, rightly so it should be! But, if certain considerations are not made regarding a target audience before a single line of code is written or object rendered... if a decision is not made to side 'for' or 'against' the casual and hardcore, I just don't see an MMO doing anything other than stagnating.

Nothing wrong with casual gamers. They are not to fault. Nothing wrong with hardcore gamers. We are not to fault. Studios... choose one and just run with it. Please!

I'm done. Got it out of me. Maybe someone with some intuition will read this. Maybe not. Point is... someone needs to say this stuff again and again until the hardcore fans get a piece of their genre back. Hardcore is not equal to: do a difficult daily/ weekly and/ or make leveling monotonous, but rather is equal to: make it a challenging, time consuming, fully rewarding but fun experience