Are you fed up of the constant nerfs & nerf threads for PvP balance?

Tandor · August 31

Lucasl402 wrote: »

playsforfun wrote: »

Nearly every post these days on this forum is a nerf this & nerf that for the sake of PvP, I for one am getting sick of seeing it & having nerfs in PvE & PvP for the sake of PvP balance to the point I am questioning if I should continue playing the game I have played since beta if the nerf hammer is going to keep effecting builds I do, mats ain't cheap & it's time consuming.

PvE players ARE NOT victims of the PvP players. They just aren't.

Sets and skills are nerfed because they are over performing in PvP. It's just that the PvP players typically know how to make builds better than most PvE players and can get more out of them, so the OP nature of something is more obvious in a PvP environment.

See my bolded addition to the quote.

That's no reason to nerf those sets and skills in PvE.

The problem here isn't the different performance of sets and skills in PvP and PvE, it's the refusal by ZOS to tweak them seperately in PvP and PvE the way that other games do.

aLi3nZ · August 31

Yes

100% yes I am. The sad thing is ZOS listens to them.

Vaqual · August 31

No

If a nerf isn't justified, you should be able to make a convincing argument.
If the arguments against nerfs are better than the arguments for nerfs, there should be no issue.

Just buffing everything because it feels cozy is plain stupid. It is an immature attitude not fit for problem solving.

LuC1ll3atTh3Wh33L · August 31

No

nope. tbh when i want a real laugh i read them. people can get worked up sometimes; fun reads tyvm.

LoganSpencer1 · August 31

Yes

LadyGP wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Yes, because the nerf cries come from the same 5 or 6 people, ad nauseum.

Funny, the ball group defenders come from the same 4-5 people, you being the main one.

atleast you identified yourself immediately when you were mentioned LMAO. And it's funny how you try to belittle everyone who disagrees with your asinine complaints about any group bigger than 1 person by calling them "ballgroup defenders", glad to see you still dont have any actual arguments other than complaining for the sake of it.

peacenote · 2:20AM

No

OP, you've got kind of a combo question going on here, with only a single answer to select.

I picked no because constant cries to nerf and buff things have been part of the game since the beginning. I don't particularly feel that the frequency of those threads have picked up recently (rather I feel like it is a constant), so I'm way past "fed up" and more into just chuckling because "the more things change, the more they stay the same."

As for the actual constant nerfs... I'm not even sure I agree with the descriptor of constant. It's more of a pendulum, and also some things are nerfed quickly while some things are left for a long time.

Things that I tend to be less enthused about, related to your topic/theme:

I was frustrated during the "year of performance" which, I think, in reality stretched out for more than a year, where PvE healing was drastically impacted by performance tests in Cyrodiil. That bothered me. It was admitted that the changes were in the name of performance, and didn't make a difference, but nothing was reversed. At the time, the changes felt they made healing less dynamic, with less levers to pull, in PvE. Therefore, that time period was when I was the most upset about PvE changes due to PvP. Earthgore nerf. BoL no longer 360. Orb slowed down. Only one healing springs allowed at a time. Probably more.
I do sometimes feel like ZOS listens to feedback that's coming from a loud minority, while not always realizing there's many people quietly happy with the way things are who will be negatively impacted by changes requested by the "loud" feedback. It's one thing if you can inclusively fix an issue without impacting other playstyles but that is not always feasible or considered. I wouldn't say I'm "fed up" but I do get frustrated when I feel that has occurred.

frogthroat · 5:31AM

No

No. I don't blame the symptom for the disease.

What ZOS could do and what they should have been doing all along is utilise Battle Spirit more. It's used in only a very few sets. Balancing would have more variables, sure, but easier to balance PVE and PVP separately if Battle Spirit would be used more.

Goregram1 · 5:59AM

No

Do you blame the guy who left the injured dog by the road or the people running it over? (Dog=PVP) (People=Players)

Dax_Draconis · 6:39AM

Yes

Every PvP nerf thread I see makes me wish that Vengeance was the only campaign that was available to play.

Turtle_Bot · 7:01AM

Yes

Soarora wrote: »

Look, I understand PvP balance doesn’t feel great for PvPers and they deserve to enjoy the part of the game they play. But it’s not even one thread per topic. Like, okay… DK and WW got nerfed. Then this happened:
- A thread complaining about sorc: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/697979/streak-needs-a-cc-nerf#latest
- A thread in response to that thread instead of just posting in that thread: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/698461/no-streak-does-not-need-a-cc-nerf#latest
- A thread complaining about sorc: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/697936/sorcs-need-nerfs-in-pvp-same-as-dk-and-ww#latest
- A thread complaining about sorc: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/698698/if-sorc-gets-a-fantastic-burst-heal-from-scribing-nb-arc-should-get-a-fantastic-cleanse-too#latest
- A thread complaining about sorc (and DK and WW): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/697811/pvp-has-become-exhausting-along-with-the-state-of-the-game#latest
- A thread complaining about people wanting DK and WW nerfed because now it'll just be sorcs: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/697864/now-we-have-only-sorcs-in-cyrodil#latest
- A thread wanting less nerfs: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/698546/less-nerfs#latest
- A thread wanting less nerfs: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/698724/pvp-balance-should-not-be-drastically-considered-more-than-pve-balance-not-again#latest

It's not like it's a PvPer problem, it's a person problem. I've been in topics where there's an explosion of threads and it's exhausting trying to remember what argument was where all whilst just arguing with the same people over and over.

Edit: But I do want to add that the part that I see exclusively with PvPers is quickly moving onto the next thing to cry nerf about. U51 isn't even live and immediately you all have moved onto sorc. Pattern recognition triggers and it makes it seem like sorc will be nerfed and you'll just start complaining about DK again or nightblade or some specific proc set.

Wish I could give this multiple Agrees and it's just so constant... WW got nerfed so they moved on to DK, then DK got nerfed (and Core of Flame did need some temporary adjustments at least until other refreshes start to come through), so they moved on to Sorcs Conservation of Energy mastery, that got nerfed so they then moved on to Streak/negate... Also, just FYI, now that Sorc is also getting some nerfs this PTS, some of these same people did indeed move on to NB/swallow soul and plar of all the things to complain about and heaven forbid you actually try to reason with them or argue their points with the sheer amount of baiting, bashing, trolling and other TOS violations they constantly retort with that never seem to get actioned, yet factual posts disagreeing with them get falsely mass reported and actioned instantly.

It literally never ends with these people, and the more ZOS caters to these same few people each patch, the more these people keep pushing and keep adding something else to the pile.

Daoin · 7:17AM

No

welcome to the days of war, try not to mince words with people unless you feel under direct attack. i find bans and such pretty lenient when a person is acting under duress no matter how they reply it is just usually a cool off ban

SerafinaWaterstar · 11:25AM

Yes

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Look, I understand PvP balance doesn’t feel great for PvPers and they deserve to enjoy the part of the game they play. But it’s not even one thread per topic. Like, okay… DK and WW got nerfed. Then this happened:
- A thread complaining about sorc: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/697979/streak-needs-a-cc-nerf#latest
- A thread in response to that thread instead of just posting in that thread: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/698461/no-streak-does-not-need-a-cc-nerf#latest
- A thread complaining about sorc: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/697936/sorcs-need-nerfs-in-pvp-same-as-dk-and-ww#latest
- A thread complaining about sorc: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/698698/if-sorc-gets-a-fantastic-burst-heal-from-scribing-nb-arc-should-get-a-fantastic-cleanse-too#latest
- A thread complaining about sorc (and DK and WW): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/697811/pvp-has-become-exhausting-along-with-the-state-of-the-game#latest
- A thread complaining about people wanting DK and WW nerfed because now it'll just be sorcs: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/697864/now-we-have-only-sorcs-in-cyrodil#latest
- A thread wanting less nerfs: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/698546/less-nerfs#latest
- A thread wanting less nerfs: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/698724/pvp-balance-should-not-be-drastically-considered-more-than-pve-balance-not-again#latest

It's not like it's a PvPer problem, it's a person problem. I've been in topics where there's an explosion of threads and it's exhausting trying to remember what argument was where all whilst just arguing with the same people over and over.

Edit: But I do want to add that the part that I see exclusively with PvPers is quickly moving onto the next thing to cry nerf about. U51 isn't even live and immediately you all have moved onto sorc. Pattern recognition triggers and it makes it seem like sorc will be nerfed and you'll just start complaining about DK again or nightblade or some specific proc set.

Wish I could give this multiple Agrees and it's just so constant... WW got nerfed so they moved on to DK, then DK got nerfed (and Core of Flame did need some temporary adjustments at least until other refreshes start to come through), so they moved on to Sorcs Conservation of Energy mastery, that got nerfed so they then moved on to Streak/negate... Also, just FYI, now that Sorc is also getting some nerfs this PTS, some of these same people did indeed move on to NB/swallow soul and plar of all the things to complain about and heaven forbid you actually try to reason with them or argue their points with the sheer amount of baiting, bashing, trolling and other TOS violations they constantly retort with that never seem to get actioned, yet factual posts disagreeing with them get falsely mass reported and actioned instantly.

It literally never ends with these people, and the more ZOS caters to these same few people each patch, the more these people keep pushing and keep adding something else to the pile.

Agree. And at the moment its mainly one person who is being just this side of abusive to people who politely disagree with them to avoid reprimand.

CatalinaWineMixer2 · 12:49PM

Yes

Vaqual wrote: »

If a nerf isn't justified, you should be able to make a convincing argument.
If the arguments against nerfs are better than the arguments for nerfs, there should be no issue.

Just buffing everything because it feels cozy is plain stupid. It is an immature attitude not fit for problem solving.

Just nerfing everything because it feels cozy is plain stupid. It's an immature attitude not fit for problem solving. There, fixed it for you.

CatalinaWineMixer2 · 12:58PM

Yes

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Look, I understand PvP balance doesn’t feel great for PvPers and they deserve to enjoy the part of the game they play. But it’s not even one thread per topic. Like, okay… DK and WW got nerfed. Then this happened:
- A thread complaining about sorc: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/697979/streak-needs-a-cc-nerf#latest
- A thread in response to that thread instead of just posting in that thread: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/698461/no-streak-does-not-need-a-cc-nerf#latest
- A thread complaining about sorc: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/697936/sorcs-need-nerfs-in-pvp-same-as-dk-and-ww#latest
- A thread complaining about sorc: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/698698/if-sorc-gets-a-fantastic-burst-heal-from-scribing-nb-arc-should-get-a-fantastic-cleanse-too#latest
- A thread complaining about sorc (and DK and WW): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/697811/pvp-has-become-exhausting-along-with-the-state-of-the-game#latest
- A thread complaining about people wanting DK and WW nerfed because now it'll just be sorcs: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/697864/now-we-have-only-sorcs-in-cyrodil#latest
- A thread wanting less nerfs: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/698546/less-nerfs#latest
- A thread wanting less nerfs: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/698724/pvp-balance-should-not-be-drastically-considered-more-than-pve-balance-not-again#latest

It's not like it's a PvPer problem, it's a person problem. I've been in topics where there's an explosion of threads and it's exhausting trying to remember what argument was where all whilst just arguing with the same people over and over.

Edit: But I do want to add that the part that I see exclusively with PvPers is quickly moving onto the next thing to cry nerf about. U51 isn't even live and immediately you all have moved onto sorc. Pattern recognition triggers and it makes it seem like sorc will be nerfed and you'll just start complaining about DK again or nightblade or some specific proc set.

Wish I could give this multiple Agrees and it's just so constant... WW got nerfed so they moved on to DK, then DK got nerfed (and Core of Flame did need some temporary adjustments at least until other refreshes start to come through), so they moved on to Sorcs Conservation of Energy mastery, that got nerfed so they then moved on to Streak/negate... Also, just FYI, now that Sorc is also getting some nerfs this PTS, some of these same people did indeed move on to NB/swallow soul and plar of all the things to complain about and heaven forbid you actually try to reason with them or argue their points with the sheer amount of baiting, bashing, trolling and other TOS violations they constantly retort with that never seem to get actioned, yet factual posts disagreeing with them get falsely mass reported and actioned instantly.

It literally never ends with these people, and the more ZOS caters to these same few people each patch, the more these people keep pushing and keep adding something else to the pile.

And the more people they drive out of the game

BahometZ · 1:49PM

Yes

Just sick of the constant whinging by clapped cheeks. Zos are still balancing classes, we're mid-stream, and people want us to row in circles because their pet classes havent been rebalanced yet. Maybe it is zos's fault for taking too long, Microsoft's for cutting staff, but some of the playerbase are being insufferable.

Militan1404 · 2:30PM

No

If anything pve needs more nerfs than pvp, powercreep has become so high that the pve is not even fun anymore.. back in the days we had to spend hours just to might if we where lucky finish beating white gold tower, now you can just burn thru most trials without learning the mechs or build for it. Pvp you need balance for it to function, its not fun for those who plays templar, nb, necro, arcanist and be in so huge disadvantage against the meta classes. And not everyone is meta hoppers that would just jump blindly into the next flavor of months, and those players would mostly just leavy if there is no balance achieved. And in pve everyone remember arcanist beam was the only way to play pve, it wasnt fun for those liked playing on other classes either. And right now players are so strong in pve that they could proboly nerf us by 50% on most things and still do 99,9% of the content while sleep walking and without trying.

BardokRedSnow · 2:32PM

Yes

Vaqual wrote: »

If a nerf isn't justified, you should be able to make a convincing argument.
If the arguments against nerfs are better than the arguments for nerfs, there should be no issue.

Just buffing everything because it feels cozy is plain stupid. It is an immature attitude not fit for problem solving.

What’s immature is thinking anyone is owed an argument at all, at the end of the day it’s a video game not a courtroom, people saying “I want this” is more valid than any argument because this is a product and the customer is king.

So if a handful of people here make the crispiest argument while the majority of happy players are playing the game and not busy coming to forums begging for nerfs and changes, the smart business move would be to go by the audience, not the small vocal minority here.

Which is the case more times than not. Listening to reddit level debate tactics and caving to demands every time there’s a nerf thread was a mistake so much that they rightfully stated they wouldn’t be doing this while refreshes were underway and it’s a shame they didn’t stick to that promise.

Militan1404 · 2:51PM

No

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

If a nerf isn't justified, you should be able to make a convincing argument.
If the arguments against nerfs are better than the arguments for nerfs, there should be no issue.

Just buffing everything because it feels cozy is plain stupid. It is an immature attitude not fit for problem solving.

What’s immature is thinking anyone is owed an argument at all, at the end of the day it’s a video game not a courtroom, people saying “I want this” is more valid than any argument because this is a product and the customer is king.

So if a handful of people here make the crispiest argument while the majority of happy players are playing the game and not busy coming to forums begging for nerfs and changes, the smart business move would be to go by the audience, not the small vocal minority here.

Which is the case more times than not. Listening to reddit level debate tactics and caving to demands every time there’s a nerf thread was a mistake so much that they rightfully stated they wouldn’t be doing this while refreshes were underway and it’s a shame they didn’t stick to that promise.

Agree, its only opinions from both sides, and theres no right answer no matter what each stance on the subject is

Arunei · 3:12PM

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Look, I understand PvP balance doesn’t feel great for PvPers and they deserve to enjoy the part of the game they play. But it’s not even one thread per topic. Like, okay… DK and WW got nerfed. Then this happened:
- A thread complaining about sorc: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/697979/streak-needs-a-cc-nerf#latest
- A thread in response to that thread instead of just posting in that thread: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/698461/no-streak-does-not-need-a-cc-nerf#latest
- A thread complaining about sorc: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/697936/sorcs-need-nerfs-in-pvp-same-as-dk-and-ww#latest
- A thread complaining about sorc: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/698698/if-sorc-gets-a-fantastic-burst-heal-from-scribing-nb-arc-should-get-a-fantastic-cleanse-too#latest
- A thread complaining about sorc (and DK and WW): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/697811/pvp-has-become-exhausting-along-with-the-state-of-the-game#latest
- A thread complaining about people wanting DK and WW nerfed because now it'll just be sorcs: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/697864/now-we-have-only-sorcs-in-cyrodil#latest
- A thread wanting less nerfs: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/698546/less-nerfs#latest
- A thread wanting less nerfs: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/698724/pvp-balance-should-not-be-drastically-considered-more-than-pve-balance-not-again#latest

It's not like it's a PvPer problem, it's a person problem. I've been in topics where there's an explosion of threads and it's exhausting trying to remember what argument was where all whilst just arguing with the same people over and over.

Edit: But I do want to add that the part that I see exclusively with PvPers is quickly moving onto the next thing to cry nerf about. U51 isn't even live and immediately you all have moved onto sorc. Pattern recognition triggers and it makes it seem like sorc will be nerfed and you'll just start complaining about DK again or nightblade or some specific proc set.

Wish I could give this multiple Agrees and it's just so constant... WW got nerfed so they moved on to DK, then DK got nerfed (and Core of Flame did need some temporary adjustments at least until other refreshes start to come through), so they moved on to Sorcs Conservation of Energy mastery, that got nerfed so they then moved on to Streak/negate... Also, just FYI, now that Sorc is also getting some nerfs this PTS, some of these same people did indeed move on to NB/swallow soul and plar of all the things to complain about and heaven forbid you actually try to reason with them or argue their points with the sheer amount of baiting, bashing, trolling and other TOS violations they constantly retort with that never seem to get actioned, yet factual posts disagreeing with them get falsely mass reported and actioned instantly.

It literally never ends with these people, and the more ZOS caters to these same few people each patch, the more these people keep pushing and keep adding something else to the pile.

Agree. And at the moment its mainly one person who is being just this side of abusive to people who politely disagree with them to avoid reprimand.

More like two, sometimes three. And they keep repeating the same things without offering any proof, despite others posting plenty of their own. They also pretty much never offer any actual counter points to arguments against nerfs, it's always just passive-aggressive dismissal or deflection or outright baiting.

Militan1404 wrote: »

If anything pve needs more nerfs than pvp, powercreep has become so high that the pve is not even fun anymore.. back in the days we had to spend hours just to might if we where lucky finish beating white gold tower, now you can just burn thru most trials without learning the mechs or build for it. Pvp you need balance for it to function, its not fun for those who plays templar, nb, necro, arcanist and be in so huge disadvantage against the meta classes. And not everyone is meta hoppers that would just jump blindly into the next flavor of months, and those players would mostly just leavy if there is no balance achieved. And in pve everyone remember arcanist beam was the only way to play pve, it wasnt fun for those liked playing on other classes either. And right now players are so strong in pve that they could proboly nerf us by 50% on most things and still do 99,9% of the content while sleep walking and without trying.

The only way to nerf PvE in a way that doesn't screw over the average or below-average players way while not touching the above-average ones is something like a soft damage cap or balancing all new things/changes to existing things around each other. Nerfing individual things like Skills, Sets, and playstyles will NEVER fix power creep. It only messes up the builds of people who can't theorycraft back whatever they've lost within a few days.

SneaK · 3:22PM

Yes

At this rate, none of us will be able to kill each other.

DoofusMax · 4:32PM

Yes

I could lodge the same complaint regarding the strings of other threads complaining about other stuff, too, so it's not just the PvP threads.

To be fair to ZOS on this sort of thing, if they change something, it annoys/aggravates/infuriates someone. If they don't change something, it annoys/aggravates/infuriates someone else. Add something to the game and it annoys/aggravates/infuriates someone. Don't add something to the game and it annoys/aggravates/infuriates someone else. And all of them seem to be operating under the assumption that there is an infinite supply of development resources to throw at whatever their pet project/peeve is. I do not exempt myself from that, by the way. I'm reasonably vocal about pointing out things which strike me as being questionable development decisions. But I still recognize that development proceeds based on the developer's priorities and if the dev is satisfied that something is working as intended, then it's a "feature" and I just have to live with it whether I like it or not.

NyaNalla · 4:57PM

Yes

I know that I'm not a regular PVP player, but historically; Trying to balance an MMORPG around pvp usually doesn't end up well. There are too many MMORPGs I have played where centering the game around PVP balance has caused eventual end of service due to the inability to achieve equilibrium within their respective PVP environments.

I just want to run Ossein's Cage for the trifecta though, so take what I say about PVP with a grain of salt.