hoangdz wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

HelloPlayers wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

WalkingBomb wrote: »

forum_propagandist wrote: »

I hadn't considered how strong streak is tbh. Unblockable and undodgeable in a semi-large rectangle does make it unique. Generally other similar ccs like nb fear and fighter's guild fear require you to be in melee range. Streak not having a target cap is probably the most unreasonable thing about it.

It's not a rectangle, it's a cone; you need to aim extremely precise if you're using it at long range. Of course, nobody actually knows that because it's not mentioned in the tooltip and people who make threads like this are usually not the people to actually test things before complaining about it. I have good news for everyone though, CC has counterplay: you can actually break CC in this game; maybe don't skip the tutorial next time.

Its not a cone. This is misinformation. Watch the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aA3h6H1Qn4

I'm a little confused on how the ability works. It looks like its extending out super far past where you end up after streaking. How is this thing supposed to be working?

It pretends to be narrow rectangle but in reality it’s like a ‘carpet bomb’

It’s an overcompensation for bad netcode.

At this point, watching people defend Streak is basically watching the five stages of grief in real time:

Denial — “Just side-strafe it. It's incredibly easy to dodge.”
Anger — “Skill issue. If you're getting hit by Streak, you're just bad at PvP.”
Bargaining — “Bombard is actually stronger.” / “Wings is basically the same mobility.” / “Just increase the cost.” / “Okay, maybe Streak is strong, but so is [insert completely unrelated skill].”
Depression — “Anyways, this will be my last comment. Whether ZOS nerfs it or not, I don’t really care anymore lol.”
Acceptance — “It’s an overcompensation for bad netcode.”

We've gone from “Streak is easy to counter” to literally arguing that it's intentionally overtuned to compensate for the game's netcode.

We're almost there, boys.

People wanting Streak nerfed are no different lol.

The only video evidence you guys have is the large hitbox, and that itself isn't even meaningful evidence.

Streak is an initiator and like all initiators it is only as good as the offensive follow up. Sorc's offense is not that hard to deal with, so Streak at best is annoying but not threatening lol.

OP keeps trying to push the narrative but it is not getting nerfed lol.

You're living in 2018 and arguing against a version of Sorc that doesn't exist anymore. The video is specifically demonstrating how Streak's CC functions in the current game and why its effective hitbox is so much larger than the actual distance traveled. You can't just dismiss that as “not meaningful evidence” without actually explaining what part of the demonstration is wrong.

And why are you bringing up Sorc's offensive follow-up? You can literally subclass Stormcalling. The current game allows you to build around whatever offensive tools you want, so arguing that Streak is only as good as “Sorc's offense” is completely outdated.

The video is evidence of the CC's actual behavior. If you think that behavior isn't a balance problem, explain why. Don't just declare the evidence meaningless because it contradicts your position.

You're stuck arguing about 2018 Sorc while everyone else is talking about the current game's balance.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

nvm

hoangdz wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

HelloPlayers wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

WalkingBomb wrote: »

forum_propagandist wrote: »

I hadn't considered how strong streak is tbh. Unblockable and undodgeable in a semi-large rectangle does make it unique. Generally other similar ccs like nb fear and fighter's guild fear require you to be in melee range. Streak not having a target cap is probably the most unreasonable thing about it.

It's not a rectangle, it's a cone; you need to aim extremely precise if you're using it at long range. Of course, nobody actually knows that because it's not mentioned in the tooltip and people who make threads like this are usually not the people to actually test things before complaining about it. I have good news for everyone though, CC has counterplay: you can actually break CC in this game; maybe don't skip the tutorial next time.

Its not a cone. This is misinformation. Watch the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aA3h6H1Qn4

I'm a little confused on how the ability works. It looks like its extending out super far past where you end up after streaking. How is this thing supposed to be working?

It pretends to be narrow rectangle but in reality it’s like a ‘carpet bomb’

It’s an overcompensation for bad netcode.

At this point, watching people defend Streak is basically watching the five stages of grief in real time:

Denial — “Just side-strafe it. It's incredibly easy to dodge.”
Anger — “Skill issue. If you're getting hit by Streak, you're just bad at PvP.”
Bargaining — “Bombard is actually stronger.” / “Wings is basically the same mobility.” / “Just increase the cost.” / “Okay, maybe Streak is strong, but so is [insert completely unrelated skill].”
Depression — “Anyways, this will be my last comment. Whether ZOS nerfs it or not, I don’t really care anymore lol.”
Acceptance — “It’s an overcompensation for bad netcode.”

We've gone from “Streak is easy to counter” to literally arguing that it's intentionally overtuned to compensate for the game's netcode.

We're almost there, boys.

People wanting Streak nerfed are no different lol.

The only video evidence you guys have is the large hitbox, and that itself isn't even meaningful evidence.

Streak is an initiator and like all initiators it is only as good as the offensive follow up. Sorc's offense is not that hard to deal with, so Streak at best is annoying but not threatening lol.

OP keeps trying to push the narrative but it is not getting nerfed lol.

You did admit the hitbox is massive lol, and boy do yall not understand how annoying it really is. Its not fun to fight or deal with, I honestly avoid sorcs and let them run away more times than not, its beyond aggravating.

I groan every time I gotta deal with yall because if they cant kill you they just play keep away and stun you into madness instead.

It is "technically" a skillshot with an uncharacteristically large area of effect the size of texas.

I never said the hit box wasn’t large. I said Streak is a skill shot, which by definition it is. I also stated that the hit box is larger than normal but it is still a skill shot nonetheless. I am annoyed by it myself, but the counters I proposed do work for me. Both things can be true at the same time.

Regardless, people are complaining about the wrong thing. It’s a pretty stacked ability but it’s fine in its own way. I would worry more about Conservation + Calculated Defense tbh than Streak. Sorcs running these 2 masteries are borderline unkillable while still nuking everything but good DKs and 50k HP WWs lol

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

People wanting Streak nerfed are no different lol.

The only video evidence you guys have is the large hitbox, and that itself isn't even meaningful evidence.

A massive hitbox combined with being unblockable and undodgeable. Also, it’s been proven that the skill stuns people around you, not just the people you go through. Sounds pretty damn meaningful to me.

Meaningful in what way? All the video showed is Streak properly working as intended. The skill has a 15m travel distance and 6m radius, so 21m of actual stun distance. That's nothing broken. It's literally how the skill has functioned for years lol.

Even with all this, my speed capped Sorc can literally dance around another Sorc all day long. The counters DO work and I use them all the time in game.

Remember Rune Cage? The skill got nerfed because it was genuinely overpowered by being unblockable, undodgable, AND ranged. There was genuinely no way to reliably counter that CC unless you had Unstoppable or stayed out of range. So, actual video evidence of Streak overpeforming would be the skill having zero counterplay despite GENUINELY testing my proposed counters. Yet, I can get in game right now on my nearly speed capped character, produce a video where I strafe around a Sorc trying to Streak, and will easily force a couple misses.

Damage is already plentyful in the game, and speed is also widely accessible. You get:

- 40% base sprint speed
- 3% per medium armor piece
- 4% from CP
- 10% from Celerity CP
- 30% from Major Expedition.

Even with 1 medium armor piece, you are already at 187% total movement speed, just 13% shy of the 200% speed cap. If you wore 2 extra medium pieces, then you would be at 193%. If you had 5 pieces instead, then that value would jump up to 199%, and you also gain access to Elude, which is an extremely strong mitigation skill that provides Major Evasion AND Major Expedition. The lack of Major Breach is irrelevant because Onslaught exists. No 3x Swift or Minor Expedition required, and you gain more damage in the process. Conveniently, stacking movement speed also gives you unparalleled mitigation against anything melee in the game, including other melee CCs like Mass Hysteria and Fossilize, and is the best form of defense in Cyrodiil and BGs, so I do not see why this is somehow a massive drawback for anybody.

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Streak is an initiator and like all initiators it is only as good as the offensive follow up. Sorc's offense is not that hard to deal with, so Streak at best is annoying but not threatening lol.

Streak isn’t an initiator. No one starts a fight with Streak (no one way knows what they’re doing, anyway).

Also, saying Sorc’s offense isn’t that hard to deal with is patently false when it comes to Sorcs who can string together huge burst combos. The same huge burst combos that are backed up by the giant unblockable stun to ensure they go off without a hitch.

Streak IS an initiator...This is the definition of an initiator skill from various games:

"An initiator skill (or ability) in gaming is a move used to safely start a teamfight or break through an enemy's defenses by gaining intel, blinding opponents, or forcing enemies out of hiding."

Streak functions exactly like that. It has the 15m teleport range to start a team fight, the AoE CC to disrupt opponents and force them out of Cloak.

And yes, Sorc's offense is not that hard to deal with because their entire combo is extremely telegraphed and laughably weak without the CC. Curse is cleansable, blockable, and can be tracked by a buff tracker. Cfrag has a slow travel time and can be blocked or rolled. Streak is literally the only thing letting a Sorc deal any meaningful damage against an actual good opponent. That means you can literally see the combo coming from a mile away because any Sorc hoping to land a burst combo will purposely get in range to CC you. Just swap to your back bar and kite with high movement speed, or build tanky if you cannot do so. I counter Sorcs like this all the time, and I do not even use Streak in duels lol.

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

OP keeps trying to push the narrative but it is not getting nerfed lol.

Cool. I’m sure a lot of folks are going to keep this whole thread and everything you’ve posted in mind when Streak inevitably gets nerfed. Prepare to be hit with some of the craziest “This you?” posts. Because every argument you have presented boils down to saying that Streak is fine because you said so and everyone else is bad at the game.

No, there are not "a lot of folks" keeping this thread up. It is literally the same 5-6 anti-Streak people lol. I am not the only one who thinks Streak is fine. There are a lot of players who think like me, but they are not on the forums to voice their opinion.

I will have you know that some of the people in this thread posted a 41k crit Molten Whip in their nerf DK thread, while deliberately not showing what they ran. That value is impossible to achieve unless you purposely stage it with certain set mechanics, having zero defensive CPs slotted, etc. I will not give names, but you should understand that the people agreeing with you here have their own agenda and made bad-faith arguments to stay on it.

hoangdz wrote: »

- 40% base sprint speed
- 3% per medium armor piece
- 4% from CP
- 10% from Celerity CP
- 30% from Major Expedition.

Even with 1 medium armor piece, you are already at 187% total movement speed, just 13% shy of the 200% speed cap.

As far as i know, Celerity CP is actually 10% of your total movement speed after buffs. So this calculation would make 177% with buffs you mentioned and Celerity CP would then be 18% instead of 10%. So in total 195% and not 187%.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

'6 people' (far more 'care about streak being adjusted'); 'a lot of players' (also wish to see Streak adjusted in the current environment in a healthy way):

My first comment in the thread has more than half of the agrees of the OP, and it's just a comment.

And just because the forum has more agrees does not mean the skill deserves a nerf. Not many people understand the skill in depth or has enough experience to see through the noise.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

The dude in the video for the Molten Whip has over cap resistances and 41k health. Are you going to start requiring 2 defensive sets just to justify the existence of the next reworked class?

Also, I'm 99.9% certain you are about half of the responses in this thread. Not even OP who comments a lot also is meeting your responses.

But anyways, just like yourself and very often- I digress.

41k resistances does not matter because the DK in that vid used Corrosive, as seen here:




Also, he used Pierce Armor/Ransack randomly before getting Whipped:




And this set conveniently applies this debuff:



That plus zero defensive CPs will produce that 41k Whip. That 41k armor is just a distraction so people focus on that and think it's legit. It's not. You cannot produce 20k Whip against a properly built player, let alone 41k lol.

albertberku wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

'a lot of players' (also wish to see Streak adjusted in the current environment in a healthy way):

I actually asked this exact question not long ago

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/681808/does-streak-need-adjustment#latest

The thing is this poll was made during Subclassing era where 95% of players were using Streak. I created this poll back then because i was very annoyed how everyone in PvP were spamming Streak and i believed that it needed to be nerfed (i voted for cooldown in that poll), even though i play mostly Sorc myself. Now as Subclassing Streak is not better than being a pure DK, maybe the answer ratio would change. But Streak is the same Streak. Lmao

This just proves instantly that my diagnosis is correct. Streak was not an issue during Subclassing era because there were more broken things in the game. It only catches strays when Sorc itself becomes the meta class lol. Same thing happened during magsorc meta when Hardened Ward got buffed. Several nerf Streak thread surfaced too, and ZOS made the right call by nerfing Ward instead of touching a class-defining skill that has never been problematic for years.

Nerf Sorc's class masteries, but do not touch this skill.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

'6 people' (far more 'care about streak being adjusted'); 'a lot of players' (also wish to see Streak adjusted in the current environment in a healthy way):

My first comment in the thread has more than half of the agrees of the OP, and it's just a comment.

And just because the forum has more agrees does not mean the skill deserves a nerf. Not many people understand the skill in depth or has enough experience to see through the noise.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

The dude in the video for the Molten Whip has over cap resistances and 41k health. Are you going to start requiring 2 defensive sets just to justify the existence of the next reworked class?

Also, I'm 99.9% certain you are about half of the responses in this thread. Not even OP who comments a lot also is meeting your responses.

But anyways, just like yourself and very often- I digress.

41k resistances does not matter because the DK in that vid used Corrosive, as seen here:




Also, he used Pierce Armor/Ransack randomly before getting Whipped:




And this set conveniently applies this debuff:



That plus zero defensive CPs will produce that 41k Whip. That 41k armor is just a distraction so people focus on that and think it's legit. It's not. You cannot produce 20k Whip against a properly built player, let alone 41k lol.

All of the proof, all of the ratios, and you are still here touting ‘you know better’.

You do understand there is an obvious issue as the only ‘ground’ you have is ‘you are the only one who knows better’? Of course there also is clear conflict-of-interest seeing how you stand to benefit from ‘sorc streak not oveloaded’ (it is an objectively overloaded skill) as a ‘self-proclaimed sorc main’ or how instead of arguing the actual point you consistently veer off into conversations that aren’t remotely a 1 on 1 such as Bombard and the 41k whip.

The ‘armor is there to distract us’- that’s actually hilarious btw. Thank you sincerely for the laugh, I imagine you were doing the same typing that.

I do not understand the point of your comment. Instead of addressing my case about the 41k whip fabrication, which I am pretty sure is what they did to create that value, you went on a rant about how I am "touting" or "I am the only one who knows better". I have never claimed such things, so let me be very clear about my stance from now on:

1) The majority of the forums are not experienced enough to understand below surface level information

The 41k armor is the kind of surface level information I am talking about. Most people would have looked at that armor value and be quick to conclude that the DK whipped him for 41k crit damage. Yet, they would have probably failed to see the Corrosive animation or understand that receiving this Whip value is impossible unless you purposely wear certain sets that normally would be considered a impractical in PvP.

2) The creator of this thread and several other people created the DK nerf thread with a staged Whip value

This is a valid concern here. By intentionally staging an impractical Whip value, they have demonstrated ill-intent in using falsified data to push for balance changes. I can only hope that ZOS treads carefully when stumbling upon threads like these.


This is also why I said dueling is the best form of balance diagnosis. There are no mobs or other players to fabcricate false data. Just you and your opponent in a controlled setting. If they replicated the same 41k whip value in a controlled duel in Stormhaven, then I would believe them. But clearly, that is not the case.

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

nvm

hoangdz wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

HelloPlayers wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

WalkingBomb wrote: »

forum_propagandist wrote: »

I hadn't considered how strong streak is tbh. Unblockable and undodgeable in a semi-large rectangle does make it unique. Generally other similar ccs like nb fear and fighter's guild fear require you to be in melee range. Streak not having a target cap is probably the most unreasonable thing about it.

It's not a rectangle, it's a cone; you need to aim extremely precise if you're using it at long range. Of course, nobody actually knows that because it's not mentioned in the tooltip and people who make threads like this are usually not the people to actually test things before complaining about it. I have good news for everyone though, CC has counterplay: you can actually break CC in this game; maybe don't skip the tutorial next time.

Its not a cone. This is misinformation. Watch the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aA3h6H1Qn4

I'm a little confused on how the ability works. It looks like its extending out super far past where you end up after streaking. How is this thing supposed to be working?

It pretends to be narrow rectangle but in reality it’s like a ‘carpet bomb’

It’s an overcompensation for bad netcode.

At this point, watching people defend Streak is basically watching the five stages of grief in real time:

Denial — “Just side-strafe it. It's incredibly easy to dodge.”
Anger — “Skill issue. If you're getting hit by Streak, you're just bad at PvP.”
Bargaining — “Bombard is actually stronger.” / “Wings is basically the same mobility.” / “Just increase the cost.” / “Okay, maybe Streak is strong, but so is [insert completely unrelated skill].”
Depression — “Anyways, this will be my last comment. Whether ZOS nerfs it or not, I don’t really care anymore lol.”
Acceptance — “It’s an overcompensation for bad netcode.”

We've gone from “Streak is easy to counter” to literally arguing that it's intentionally overtuned to compensate for the game's netcode.

We're almost there, boys.

People wanting Streak nerfed are no different lol.

The only video evidence you guys have is the large hitbox, and that itself isn't even meaningful evidence.

Streak is an initiator and like all initiators it is only as good as the offensive follow up. Sorc's offense is not that hard to deal with, so Streak at best is annoying but not threatening lol.

OP keeps trying to push the narrative but it is not getting nerfed lol.

You did admit the hitbox is massive lol, and boy do yall not understand how annoying it really is. Its not fun to fight or deal with, I honestly avoid sorcs and let them run away more times than not, its beyond aggravating.

I groan every time I gotta deal with yall because if they cant kill you they just play keep away and stun you into madness instead.

It is "technically" a skillshot with an uncharacteristically large area of effect the size of texas.

I never said the hit box wasn’t large. I said Streak is a skill shot, which by definition it is. I also stated that the hit box is larger than normal but it is still a skill shot nonetheless. I am annoyed by it myself, but the counters I proposed do work for me. Both things can be true at the same time.

Regardless, people are complaining about the wrong thing. It’s a pretty stacked ability but it’s fine in its own way. I would worry more about Conservation + Calculated Defense tbh than Streak. Sorcs running these 2 masteries are borderline unkillable while still nuking everything but good DKs and 50k HP WWs lol

I mean we can definitely have a conversation about that but its not the subject of the thread, and personally Im not concerned with how powerful sorcs are, half the reason they are is simply because their mobility skill is so ridiculous, mobility being the best survival tool in the game

DK are strong in melee range and when using wings but its also easy to zerg us down when we get cocky.

Thats not the same for a sorc.

Keeping mobility even with that said is fine, just not with also a massive aoe cc that cant be blocked. A stacked ability thats fine in its own way can then be adjusted, which is all I was getting at, not a gotcha of what you did or didnt say. But middle ground on a skill you say wont be changed and shouldnt be changed. That much you did say.

hoangdz wrote: »

albertberku wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

'a lot of players' (also wish to see Streak adjusted in the current environment in a healthy way):

I actually asked this exact question not long ago

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/681808/does-streak-need-adjustment#latest

The thing is this poll was made during Subclassing era where 95% of players were using Streak. I created this poll back then because i was very annoyed how everyone in PvP were spamming Streak and i believed that it needed to be nerfed (i voted for cooldown in that poll), even though i play mostly Sorc myself. Now as Subclassing Streak is not better than being a pure DK, maybe the answer ratio would change. But Streak is the same Streak. Lmao

This just proves instantly that my diagnosis is correct. Streak was not an issue during Subclassing era because there were more broken things in the game. It only catches strays when Sorc itself becomes the meta class lol. Same thing happened during magsorc meta when Hardened Ward got buffed. Several nerf Streak thread surfaced too, and ZOS made the right call by nerfing Ward instead of touching a class-defining skill that has never been problematic for years.

Nerf Sorc's class masteries, but do not touch this skill.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

In other words if you take away the cc, increase the cost of streak or make it blockable, or any combination of these, it doesnt strip away the identity of a sorc or make the class less strong, it just makes you have to compensate in your build for using streak at will the same as every other class has to compensate in their build for speed.

Except with a sorc your mobility will always be stronger than theirs, same as how for the most part dk overall will always be better in melee range. The best balance adjustments are those that dont strip the class of identity, which is why I was hesitant of nerfs on dk's whip which people see as a spammable when its a burst tool.

However even with those nerfs its not strong enough to put me back on two hander dizzy combos, so I'll live. Same though can be said here with streak, the suggestions given in this thread dont gut sorc and certainly not the ones at the higher end of the skill spectrum such as yourself @hoangdz

And again if its not clear Im not saying you said or didnt say this or that, Im just arguing that you can balance streak for people who hate fighting sorcs while still keeping the class recognizable and enjoyable

Making Streak blockable wouldn't impact 99% of players, but it would allow for good players to have some counterplay.