ZOS, why is werewolf balancing ‘unchanging’?

Wuuffyy · August 14

We are told the PTS is for testing and the multiple avenues for feedback are for feedback. I am told things are allowed to change on the PTS as it’s ’a testing environment’.

Why is it that every medium of content is malleable with enough public or logical scrutiny yet werewolf balance must consist of vast endeavors of ‘pulling’ without so much as a meaningfully constructive ‘push’ along the way?

You say you’ve heard various avenues of feedback including that of the highly-obscured feedback on nightblade ‘Strife’ changes yet are unable to hear me say:

-you’re clearly balancing werewolf based on power levels from masteries (every resource and sustain adjustment mimics the over-the-top resource and health sustain from the CoE mastery and ‘Blood Magic’)

-you continuously require more and more health for heal scaling to achieve similar healing from pre-rework yet re-introduce heavy stam sustain issues in the playstyle causing me to be spread far too thin to do anything meaningful, especially lacking in many areas in-kit (no burst, no snares, no immobilizes, no S&B backbar/DW front bar, no monomyth, no Balorgh)

-you are directly affecting many playstyles heavily in PvE while citing your proposed changes are geared towards PvP

-you are forcing anyone still playing werewolf in PvP next patch into sorc which restarts the ‘nerf requests’ all over again for the exact same topic (high resource sustain still) while bite healing still carries werewolf’s ’in your face’ healing (which incentivizes low APM/effort ‘bite spam’ versus utilizing the entire kit)

Edit: another PvP change that heavily affects PvE wolf and its options (CoE and especially Static Reverb indirect nerfs).

Edit 2: reminder to please return existing ‘customized animations’ (especially recalls) to werewolf. Many are fine with the aspect of the ‘bugginess/glitchness’ of some and while it makes sense that ZOS cannot support including werewolf in future animations for the time being; please keep customized actions (testimony: especially ones like the new crown crate recall that I personally paid for the purpose of it meshing well and appearing like a ‘holy wolf’)

AdonisJorge · August 14

Good feedback. I think we need to nerf Werewolf further — all skills should cost health, magicka, stamina, and ultimate simultaneously

HunterDawn · August 15

ZOS devs just want to make a toothless werewolf so everyone can prey on it.

aLi3nZ · August 15

Yeah the nerf seems way too heavy handed. Will have to see how it goes I guess.

Tommy_The_Gun · August 15

The problem is that this nerf is not final. I mean, instead of addressing Conserve Energy passive ZOS just (most likely in some kind of "Panic mode") decided to reduce every value slider WW has, just in case.

This approach solves nothing & is actually causing more problems since pretty much every WW build (the ones that were not problematic) got shafted hard in both PvE & PvP while the WW Sorc with Conserve Energy passive will still be killing people, so the "nerf threads" won't go away leading to yet more WW nerfs.

JohnRingo · August 15

AdonisJorge wrote: »

Good feedback. I think we need to nerf Werewolf further — all skills should cost health, magicka, stamina, and ultimate simultaneously

Actually you are correct. WW clearly need further nerfs. Sustain cost increases are easily managed (Sorc). Did their absurd damage get nerfed?

Arunei · August 15

JohnRingo wrote: »

AdonisJorge wrote: »

Good feedback. I think we need to nerf Werewolf further — all skills should cost health, magicka, stamina, and ultimate simultaneously

Actually you are correct. WW clearly need further nerfs. Sustain cost increases are easily managed (Sorc). Did their absurd damage get nerfed?

WW didn't need nerfed because of CoE being too overtuned. ZOS refuses to adjust that Class Mastery. Nerfing WW by raising Stam costs without adjusting CoE will just force all WWs into playing Sorc and Stam, which kills build diversity. It also means you're still going to see WW sustain easily on Sorc.

Let's focus on the actual source of issues instead of the things being impacted by them.

Bushido2513 · August 15

Arunei wrote: »

JohnRingo wrote: »

AdonisJorge wrote: »

Good feedback. I think we need to nerf Werewolf further — all skills should cost health, magicka, stamina, and ultimate simultaneously

Actually you are correct. WW clearly need further nerfs. Sustain cost increases are easily managed (Sorc). Did their absurd damage get nerfed?

WW didn't need nerfed because of CoE being too overtuned. ZOS refuses to adjust that Class Mastery. Nerfing WW by raising Stam costs without adjusting CoE will just force all WWs into playing Sorc and Stam, which kills build diversity. It also means you're still going to see WW sustain easily on Sorc.

Let's focus on the actual source of issues instead of the things being impacted by them.

This is an interesting point but do we have any math on it? I keep hearing that people think this is what will happen but even when coe will the sustain be exactly the same?

Also wouldn't they be losing access to other masteries?

I'm not saying anything anyone is saying is wrong but if we want devs to take action shouldn't we be able to show them something?

I just don't want this to turn into here's a thought on how this took go so zos please take action on this thought or group of thoughts without any evidence.

Wuuffyy · August 15

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

JohnRingo wrote: »

AdonisJorge wrote: »

Good feedback. I think we need to nerf Werewolf further — all skills should cost health, magicka, stamina, and ultimate simultaneously

Actually you are correct. WW clearly need further nerfs. Sustain cost increases are easily managed (Sorc). Did their absurd damage get nerfed?

WW didn't need nerfed because of CoE being too overtuned. ZOS refuses to adjust that Class Mastery. Nerfing WW by raising Stam costs without adjusting CoE will just force all WWs into playing Sorc and Stam, which kills build diversity. It also means you're still going to see WW sustain easily on Sorc.

Let's focus on the actual source of issues instead of the things being impacted by them.

This is an interesting point but do we have any math on it? I keep hearing that people think this is what will happen but even when coe will the sustain be exactly the same?

Also wouldn't they be losing access to other masteries?

I'm not saying anything anyone is saying is wrong but if we want devs to take action shouldn't we be able to show them something?

I just don't want this to turn into here's a thought on how this took go so zos please take action on this thought or group of thoughts without any evidence.

Hop on PTS and see for yourself or just use common sense; if you want the 'dirtiest' results, build no sustain and try to duel with CoE slotted and without:

"the passive 'Conservation of Energy' is the pinnacle of 'infinite sustain' wolf on current live AND PTS. On live, I bite for 800 stam and as a result of having a mere ~20k stam and ~20k mag I receive 800 mag and 800 stamina every 2 seconds 'for free'; this coupled with your standard 'regen' ticks with little to no investment providing 600-1000 additional stam/mag recovery and I am essentially gaining resources while attacking. Even on PTS, with 'Conservation of Energy' in an extended 1 v 1 situation, 'skill spam' via bite for 1600 stam is rewarded with roughly 1400-1800 stam per 2 seconds alongside another 800 per 2 seconds for magicka (from CoE alone)... more than enough to not bat an eye at sustain and nullify the resource penalty nearly entirely."

Bushido2513 · August 15

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

JohnRingo wrote: »

AdonisJorge wrote: »

Good feedback. I think we need to nerf Werewolf further — all skills should cost health, magicka, stamina, and ultimate simultaneously

Actually you are correct. WW clearly need further nerfs. Sustain cost increases are easily managed (Sorc). Did their absurd damage get nerfed?

WW didn't need nerfed because of CoE being too overtuned. ZOS refuses to adjust that Class Mastery. Nerfing WW by raising Stam costs without adjusting CoE will just force all WWs into playing Sorc and Stam, which kills build diversity. It also means you're still going to see WW sustain easily on Sorc.

Let's focus on the actual source of issues instead of the things being impacted by them.

This is an interesting point but do we have any math on it? I keep hearing that people think this is what will happen but even when coe will the sustain be exactly the same?

Also wouldn't they be losing access to other masteries?

I'm not saying anything anyone is saying is wrong but if we want devs to take action shouldn't we be able to show them something?

I just don't want this to turn into here's a thought on how this took go so zos please take action on this thought or group of thoughts without any evidence.

Hop on PTS and see for yourself or just use common sense; if you want the 'dirtiest' results, build no sustain and try to duel with CoE slotted and without:

"the passive 'Conservation of Energy' is the pinnacle of 'infinite sustain' wolf on current live AND PTS. On live, I bite for 800 stam and as a result of having a mere ~20k stam and ~20k mag I receive 800 mag and 800 stamina every 2 seconds 'for free'; this coupled with your standard 'regen' ticks with little to no investment providing 600-1000 additional stam/mag recovery and I am essentially gaining resources while attacking. Even on PTS, with 'Conservation of Energy' in an extended 1 v 1 situation, 'skill spam' via bite for 1600 stam is rewarded with roughly 1400-1800 stam per 2 seconds alongside another 800 per 2 seconds for magicka (from CoE alone)... more than enough to not bat an eye at sustain and nullify the resource penalty nearly entirely."

I should be more clear. I understand that conservation is great on sustain. My point was more to say even with that, how playable is it and how valuable is it vs doing another type of build on another class?

Also there were multiple cost changes so I would want to see analytics of similar engagements pts vs live.

If performance overall and in most scenarios did not change even with the cost changes then yes there is some validation. But there is also the question of saying even if you can sustain what does that look like in combat over the general engagement length of time?

Also I think that it's easy to just say well hey this is where it will end up based on simple math but that's not really testing across the range of player population. Just saying I'd rather see more cmx style data comparison.

Wuuffyy · August 15

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

JohnRingo wrote: »

AdonisJorge wrote: »

Good feedback. I think we need to nerf Werewolf further — all skills should cost health, magicka, stamina, and ultimate simultaneously

Actually you are correct. WW clearly need further nerfs. Sustain cost increases are easily managed (Sorc). Did their absurd damage get nerfed?

WW didn't need nerfed because of CoE being too overtuned. ZOS refuses to adjust that Class Mastery. Nerfing WW by raising Stam costs without adjusting CoE will just force all WWs into playing Sorc and Stam, which kills build diversity. It also means you're still going to see WW sustain easily on Sorc.

Let's focus on the actual source of issues instead of the things being impacted by them.

This is an interesting point but do we have any math on it? I keep hearing that people think this is what will happen but even when coe will the sustain be exactly the same?

Also wouldn't they be losing access to other masteries?

I'm not saying anything anyone is saying is wrong but if we want devs to take action shouldn't we be able to show them something?

I just don't want this to turn into here's a thought on how this took go so zos please take action on this thought or group of thoughts without any evidence.

Hop on PTS and see for yourself or just use common sense; if you want the 'dirtiest' results, build no sustain and try to duel with CoE slotted and without:

"the passive 'Conservation of Energy' is the pinnacle of 'infinite sustain' wolf on current live AND PTS. On live, I bite for 800 stam and as a result of having a mere ~20k stam and ~20k mag I receive 800 mag and 800 stamina every 2 seconds 'for free'; this coupled with your standard 'regen' ticks with little to no investment providing 600-1000 additional stam/mag recovery and I am essentially gaining resources while attacking. Even on PTS, with 'Conservation of Energy' in an extended 1 v 1 situation, 'skill spam' via bite for 1600 stam is rewarded with roughly 1400-1800 stam per 2 seconds alongside another 800 per 2 seconds for magicka (from CoE alone)... more than enough to not bat an eye at sustain and nullify the resource penalty nearly entirely."

I should be more clear. I understand that conservation is great on sustain. My point was more to say even with that, how playable is it and how valuable is it vs doing another type of build on another class?

Also there were multiple cost changes so I would want to see analytics of similar engagements pts vs live.

If performance overall and in most scenarios did not change even with the cost changes then yes there is some validation. But there is also the question of saying even if you can sustain what does that look like in combat over the general engagement length of time?

Also I think that it's easy to just say well hey this is where it will end up based on simple math but that's not really testing across the range of player population. Just saying I'd rather see more cmx style data comparison.

On live, I play anything but a Sorc and my sustain is a consideration. I burn my mag too quickly, it's gone. I spam roll/hold block, my stam can easily break.

On live, I play a sorc and I sit in a group of people without issue while performing my rotation over and over.

On PTS, I build 0 sustain of any kind on my sorc (equivalent build from live) and sustain a 10+ min fight with several other proc wolves, throwing a heavy every now and then, and relatively nothing changes (my mag, which I can convert to stam, also staying relatively maxed out thanks to CoE).

On PTS, I build 0 sustain of any kind on my sorc (but I remove CoE mastery) and my sustain burns out within a couple of seconds (same as any off-meta build) to the point I give up far too much to save it+ my healing+ any damage to make up for 'no burst' (i.e. my damage must be sustained), etc.

Beyond this, these changes should have never affected PvE to begin with. Anyone with the most basic of critical thinking skills could tell you 'double' to 'tripling' skill costs while enforcing health stack (in other words, enforcing a stack other than primary attribute) serves to spread sustain very thin.

I'd get whatever video is necessary for this point if any combat dev/ @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_JessicaFolsom asked for exactly what is wanted via demonstration (because, it's quite frankly a waste of my time if it'll never be seen anyway)... otherwise, I don't have to supply a video when I have logic and a plethora of other people who have verifiably tested on the PTS telling you the exact same thing.

*edited the last sentence out following poster's comment

Bushido2513 · August 15

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

JohnRingo wrote: »

AdonisJorge wrote: »

Good feedback. I think we need to nerf Werewolf further — all skills should cost health, magicka, stamina, and ultimate simultaneously

Actually you are correct. WW clearly need further nerfs. Sustain cost increases are easily managed (Sorc). Did their absurd damage get nerfed?

WW didn't need nerfed because of CoE being too overtuned. ZOS refuses to adjust that Class Mastery. Nerfing WW by raising Stam costs without adjusting CoE will just force all WWs into playing Sorc and Stam, which kills build diversity. It also means you're still going to see WW sustain easily on Sorc.

Let's focus on the actual source of issues instead of the things being impacted by them.

This is an interesting point but do we have any math on it? I keep hearing that people think this is what will happen but even when coe will the sustain be exactly the same?

Also wouldn't they be losing access to other masteries?

I'm not saying anything anyone is saying is wrong but if we want devs to take action shouldn't we be able to show them something?

I just don't want this to turn into here's a thought on how this took go so zos please take action on this thought or group of thoughts without any evidence.

Hop on PTS and see for yourself or just use common sense; if you want the 'dirtiest' results, build no sustain and try to duel with CoE slotted and without:

"the passive 'Conservation of Energy' is the pinnacle of 'infinite sustain' wolf on current live AND PTS. On live, I bite for 800 stam and as a result of having a mere ~20k stam and ~20k mag I receive 800 mag and 800 stamina every 2 seconds 'for free'; this coupled with your standard 'regen' ticks with little to no investment providing 600-1000 additional stam/mag recovery and I am essentially gaining resources while attacking. Even on PTS, with 'Conservation of Energy' in an extended 1 v 1 situation, 'skill spam' via bite for 1600 stam is rewarded with roughly 1400-1800 stam per 2 seconds alongside another 800 per 2 seconds for magicka (from CoE alone)... more than enough to not bat an eye at sustain and nullify the resource penalty nearly entirely."

I should be more clear. I understand that conservation is great on sustain. My point was more to say even with that, how playable is it and how valuable is it vs doing another type of build on another class?

Also there were multiple cost changes so I would want to see analytics of similar engagements pts vs live.

If performance overall and in most scenarios did not change even with the cost changes then yes there is some validation. But there is also the question of saying even if you can sustain what does that look like in combat over the general engagement length of time?

Also I think that it's easy to just say well hey this is where it will end up based on simple math but that's not really testing across the range of player population. Just saying I'd rather see more cmx style data comparison.

On live, I play anything but a Sorc and my sustain is a consideration. I burn my mag too quickly, it's gone. I spam roll/hold block, my stam can easily break.

On live, I play a sorc and I sit in a group of people without issue while performing my rotation over and over.

On PTS, I build 0 sustain of any kind on my sorc (equivalent build from live) and sustain a 10+ min fight with several other proc wolves, throwing a heavy every now and then, and relatively nothing changes (my mag, which I can convert to stam, also staying relatively maxed out thanks to CoE).

On PTS, I build 0 sustain of any kind on my sorc (but I remove CoE mastery) and my sustain burns out within a couple of seconds (same as any off-meta build) to the point I give up far to much too save it+ my healing+ any damage to make up for 'no burst' (i.e. my damage must be sustained), etc.

Beyond this, these changes should have never affected PvE to begin with. Anyone with the most basic of critical thinking skills could tell you 'double' to 'tripling' skill costs while enforcing health stack (in other words, enforcing a stack other than primary attribute) serves to spread sustain very thin.

I'd get whatever video is necessary for this point if any combat dev/ @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_JessicaFolsom asked for exactly what is wanted via demonstration (because, it's quite frankly a waste of my time if it'll never be seen anyway)... otherwise, I don't have to supply a video when I have logic and a plethora of other people who have verifiably tested on the PTS telling you the exact same thing. Especially not for some no-PFP forum-goer that doesn't seem to have even touched PTS themselves, to be honest.

The devs have already asked for feedback and that's what this is. And I'm not asking you or anyone to make a video for me. It's not my argument to defend.

I want the game to be improved for all but my point is more that we're not going to likely get there if it's just back and forth this is what I saw now devs go take action.

I'm not saying I'm on one side or the other. Just wanting to be as clear as possible about the issue being stated and looking at it from both the player and potential dev aspect.

Also your comments about me don't really help clarify anything. I don't take offense but just wanted to point out that it's not about personal attacks. Just here to talk about how we all get a better game.

Wuuffyy · August 15

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

JohnRingo wrote: »

AdonisJorge wrote: »

Good feedback. I think we need to nerf Werewolf further — all skills should cost health, magicka, stamina, and ultimate simultaneously

Actually you are correct. WW clearly need further nerfs. Sustain cost increases are easily managed (Sorc). Did their absurd damage get nerfed?

WW didn't need nerfed because of CoE being too overtuned. ZOS refuses to adjust that Class Mastery. Nerfing WW by raising Stam costs without adjusting CoE will just force all WWs into playing Sorc and Stam, which kills build diversity. It also means you're still going to see WW sustain easily on Sorc.

Let's focus on the actual source of issues instead of the things being impacted by them.

This is an interesting point but do we have any math on it? I keep hearing that people think this is what will happen but even when coe will the sustain be exactly the same?

Also wouldn't they be losing access to other masteries?

I'm not saying anything anyone is saying is wrong but if we want devs to take action shouldn't we be able to show them something?

I just don't want this to turn into here's a thought on how this took go so zos please take action on this thought or group of thoughts without any evidence.

Hop on PTS and see for yourself or just use common sense; if you want the 'dirtiest' results, build no sustain and try to duel with CoE slotted and without:

"the passive 'Conservation of Energy' is the pinnacle of 'infinite sustain' wolf on current live AND PTS. On live, I bite for 800 stam and as a result of having a mere ~20k stam and ~20k mag I receive 800 mag and 800 stamina every 2 seconds 'for free'; this coupled with your standard 'regen' ticks with little to no investment providing 600-1000 additional stam/mag recovery and I am essentially gaining resources while attacking. Even on PTS, with 'Conservation of Energy' in an extended 1 v 1 situation, 'skill spam' via bite for 1600 stam is rewarded with roughly 1400-1800 stam per 2 seconds alongside another 800 per 2 seconds for magicka (from CoE alone)... more than enough to not bat an eye at sustain and nullify the resource penalty nearly entirely."

I should be more clear. I understand that conservation is great on sustain. My point was more to say even with that, how playable is it and how valuable is it vs doing another type of build on another class?

Also there were multiple cost changes so I would want to see analytics of similar engagements pts vs live.

If performance overall and in most scenarios did not change even with the cost changes then yes there is some validation. But there is also the question of saying even if you can sustain what does that look like in combat over the general engagement length of time?

Also I think that it's easy to just say well hey this is where it will end up based on simple math but that's not really testing across the range of player population. Just saying I'd rather see more cmx style data comparison.

On live, I play anything but a Sorc and my sustain is a consideration. I burn my mag too quickly, it's gone. I spam roll/hold block, my stam can easily break.

On live, I play a sorc and I sit in a group of people without issue while performing my rotation over and over.

On PTS, I build 0 sustain of any kind on my sorc (equivalent build from live) and sustain a 10+ min fight with several other proc wolves, throwing a heavy every now and then, and relatively nothing changes (my mag, which I can convert to stam, also staying relatively maxed out thanks to CoE).

On PTS, I build 0 sustain of any kind on my sorc (but I remove CoE mastery) and my sustain burns out within a couple of seconds (same as any off-meta build) to the point I give up far to much too save it+ my healing+ any damage to make up for 'no burst' (i.e. my damage must be sustained), etc.

Beyond this, these changes should have never affected PvE to begin with. Anyone with the most basic of critical thinking skills could tell you 'double' to 'tripling' skill costs while enforcing health stack (in other words, enforcing a stack other than primary attribute) serves to spread sustain very thin.

I'd get whatever video is necessary for this point if any combat dev/ @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_JessicaFolsom asked for exactly what is wanted via demonstration (because, it's quite frankly a waste of my time if it'll never be seen anyway)... otherwise, I don't have to supply a video when I have logic and a plethora of other people who have verifiably tested on the PTS telling you the exact same thing. Especially not for some no-PFP forum-goer that doesn't seem to have even touched PTS themselves, to be honest.

The devs have already asked for feedback and that's what this is. And I'm not asking you or anyone to make a video for me. It's not my argument to defend.

I want the game to be improved for all but my point is more that we're not going to likely get there if it's just back and forth this is what I saw now devs go take action.

I'm not saying I'm on one side or the other. Just wanting to be as clear as possible about the issue being stated and looking at it from both the player and potential dev aspect.

Also your comments about me don't really help clarify anything. I don't take offense but just wanted to point out that it's not about personal attacks. Just here to talk about how we all get a better game.

"Better game" for most here on at-least the forums equates to them deleting werewolf again in all but animations and moving forward with anything else. Just an FYI.

Bushido2513 · August 15

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

JohnRingo wrote: »

AdonisJorge wrote: »

Good feedback. I think we need to nerf Werewolf further — all skills should cost health, magicka, stamina, and ultimate simultaneously

Actually you are correct. WW clearly need further nerfs. Sustain cost increases are easily managed (Sorc). Did their absurd damage get nerfed?

WW didn't need nerfed because of CoE being too overtuned. ZOS refuses to adjust that Class Mastery. Nerfing WW by raising Stam costs without adjusting CoE will just force all WWs into playing Sorc and Stam, which kills build diversity. It also means you're still going to see WW sustain easily on Sorc.

Let's focus on the actual source of issues instead of the things being impacted by them.

This is an interesting point but do we have any math on it? I keep hearing that people think this is what will happen but even when coe will the sustain be exactly the same?

Also wouldn't they be losing access to other masteries?

I'm not saying anything anyone is saying is wrong but if we want devs to take action shouldn't we be able to show them something?

I just don't want this to turn into here's a thought on how this took go so zos please take action on this thought or group of thoughts without any evidence.

Hop on PTS and see for yourself or just use common sense; if you want the 'dirtiest' results, build no sustain and try to duel with CoE slotted and without:

"the passive 'Conservation of Energy' is the pinnacle of 'infinite sustain' wolf on current live AND PTS. On live, I bite for 800 stam and as a result of having a mere ~20k stam and ~20k mag I receive 800 mag and 800 stamina every 2 seconds 'for free'; this coupled with your standard 'regen' ticks with little to no investment providing 600-1000 additional stam/mag recovery and I am essentially gaining resources while attacking. Even on PTS, with 'Conservation of Energy' in an extended 1 v 1 situation, 'skill spam' via bite for 1600 stam is rewarded with roughly 1400-1800 stam per 2 seconds alongside another 800 per 2 seconds for magicka (from CoE alone)... more than enough to not bat an eye at sustain and nullify the resource penalty nearly entirely."

I should be more clear. I understand that conservation is great on sustain. My point was more to say even with that, how playable is it and how valuable is it vs doing another type of build on another class?

Also there were multiple cost changes so I would want to see analytics of similar engagements pts vs live.

If performance overall and in most scenarios did not change even with the cost changes then yes there is some validation. But there is also the question of saying even if you can sustain what does that look like in combat over the general engagement length of time?

Also I think that it's easy to just say well hey this is where it will end up based on simple math but that's not really testing across the range of player population. Just saying I'd rather see more cmx style data comparison.

On live, I play anything but a Sorc and my sustain is a consideration. I burn my mag too quickly, it's gone. I spam roll/hold block, my stam can easily break.

On live, I play a sorc and I sit in a group of people without issue while performing my rotation over and over.

On PTS, I build 0 sustain of any kind on my sorc (equivalent build from live) and sustain a 10+ min fight with several other proc wolves, throwing a heavy every now and then, and relatively nothing changes (my mag, which I can convert to stam, also staying relatively maxed out thanks to CoE).

On PTS, I build 0 sustain of any kind on my sorc (but I remove CoE mastery) and my sustain burns out within a couple of seconds (same as any off-meta build) to the point I give up far to much too save it+ my healing+ any damage to make up for 'no burst' (i.e. my damage must be sustained), etc.

Beyond this, these changes should have never affected PvE to begin with. Anyone with the most basic of critical thinking skills could tell you 'double' to 'tripling' skill costs while enforcing health stack (in other words, enforcing a stack other than primary attribute) serves to spread sustain very thin.

I'd get whatever video is necessary for this point if any combat dev/ @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_JessicaFolsom asked for exactly what is wanted via demonstration (because, it's quite frankly a waste of my time if it'll never be seen anyway)... otherwise, I don't have to supply a video when I have logic and a plethora of other people who have verifiably tested on the PTS telling you the exact same thing. Especially not for some no-PFP forum-goer that doesn't seem to have even touched PTS themselves, to be honest.

The devs have already asked for feedback and that's what this is. And I'm not asking you or anyone to make a video for me. It's not my argument to defend.

I want the game to be improved for all but my point is more that we're not going to likely get there if it's just back and forth this is what I saw now devs go take action.

I'm not saying I'm on one side or the other. Just wanting to be as clear as possible about the issue being stated and looking at it from both the player and potential dev aspect.

Also your comments about me don't really help clarify anything. I don't take offense but just wanted to point out that it's not about personal attacks. Just here to talk about how we all get a better game.

"Better game" for most here on at-least the forums equates to them deleting werewolf again in all but animations and moving forward with anything else. Just an FYI.

I will say that I currently find WW very annoying be it on the tanky side or the damage side. I also don't want a game where there is no competition or competition is just easy.

Lore wise I'm find with saying hey I'm a humanoid and so a WW should scare me and give me a challenge and be able to kill me if I'm not up to par. All of that's ok but without all classes having their rework WW is more like the hybrid from underworld vs just a regular WW. I'm even fine with them having a berserk ultimate. If I have to watch out for corrosive I don't see why I shouldn't have to watch out for an enraged WW.

I'm fine with all of that but the cost needs to be there so that I can have windows of attack and counters.

I also realize WW being linked to PVE and PVP sucks because one change to save one side usually hurts the other.

I don't play WW at all but I do want them to be strong competitive options for those that do want to play them.

On topic, I should be clear that I don't have PTS access and my comments weren't made to lean on that or suggest that I know anything more than what I get from the game on console.

What I'm leaning on is my years in development, QA, UX, and UAT. In cases like where ZOS is, while I can't say they would actually use or view it, I'm saying that concrete examples are better to work with.

When you're strapped for resources it's going to be harder to chase down commentary because you just don't have the time. In those cases if someone can bring in hard evidence that's been fairly well tested then it helps to roll it up the chain.

I'm not saying we're here to do a job for ZOS but at the same time the game is where it is so I would figure any extra help is appreciated and I certainly understand anyone that doesn't want to for any reason.

HunterDawn · August 16

During PTS testing, I dueled my DK friend on Werewolf, and the match ended in around three minutes. Even on Sorcerer Werewolf, I suffer from insufficient damage, healing and resource recovery. The PvP experience is simply awful. Excessively high resource costs grant barely any margin for mistakes.
Werewolf’s fear costs 3000 Stamina. A missed cast carries heavy consequences, as I cannot spend another 3000 Stamina to recast it with only 20,000 total Stamina. Frankly, Werewolf feels worse in U51 compared to U49.

JohnRingo · August 16

Arunei wrote: »

JohnRingo wrote: »

AdonisJorge wrote: »

Good feedback. I think we need to nerf Werewolf further — all skills should cost health, magicka, stamina, and ultimate simultaneously

Actually you are correct. WW clearly need further nerfs. Sustain cost increases are easily managed (Sorc). Did their absurd damage get nerfed?

WW didn't need nerfed because of CoE being too overtuned. ZOS refuses to adjust that Class Mastery. Nerfing WW by raising Stam costs without adjusting CoE will just force all WWs into playing Sorc and Stam, which kills build diversity. It also means you're still going to see WW sustain easily on Sorc.

Let's focus on the actual source of issues instead of the things being impacted by them.

Nah. Nerf it.

Wuuffyy · August 16

JohnRingo wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

JohnRingo wrote: »

AdonisJorge wrote: »

Good feedback. I think we need to nerf Werewolf further — all skills should cost health, magicka, stamina, and ultimate simultaneously

Actually you are correct. WW clearly need further nerfs. Sustain cost increases are easily managed (Sorc). Did their absurd damage get nerfed?

WW didn't need nerfed because of CoE being too overtuned. ZOS refuses to adjust that Class Mastery. Nerfing WW by raising Stam costs without adjusting CoE will just force all WWs into playing Sorc and Stam, which kills build diversity. It also means you're still going to see WW sustain easily on Sorc.

Let's focus on the actual source of issues instead of the things being impacted by them.

Nah. Nerf it.

Thanks man, seems like you really have a great hold on things.

If I remember right, they did 'nerf it' on last PTS when a bunch of people screamed the same thing. Then we had the Signet Warden meta and it was quickly realized 'nerf it' (werewolf) didn't work and that had made it to live despite the blanket werewolf nerfs.

Sometimes you need to understand the core of an issue to properly assess and remediate.

Arunei · August 17

JohnRingo wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

JohnRingo wrote: »

AdonisJorge wrote: »

Good feedback. I think we need to nerf Werewolf further — all skills should cost health, magicka, stamina, and ultimate simultaneously

Actually you are correct. WW clearly need further nerfs. Sustain cost increases are easily managed (Sorc). Did their absurd damage get nerfed?

WW didn't need nerfed because of CoE being too overtuned. ZOS refuses to adjust that Class Mastery. Nerfing WW by raising Stam costs without adjusting CoE will just force all WWs into playing Sorc and Stam, which kills build diversity. It also means you're still going to see WW sustain easily on Sorc.

Let's focus on the actual source of issues instead of the things being impacted by them.

Nah. Nerf it.

Someone died to a WW in PvP and got mad about it.

Bushido2513 · August 17

Wuuffyy wrote: »

JohnRingo wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

JohnRingo wrote: »

AdonisJorge wrote: »

Good feedback. I think we need to nerf Werewolf further — all skills should cost health, magicka, stamina, and ultimate simultaneously

Actually you are correct. WW clearly need further nerfs. Sustain cost increases are easily managed (Sorc). Did their absurd damage get nerfed?

WW didn't need nerfed because of CoE being too overtuned. ZOS refuses to adjust that Class Mastery. Nerfing WW by raising Stam costs without adjusting CoE will just force all WWs into playing Sorc and Stam, which kills build diversity. It also means you're still going to see WW sustain easily on Sorc.

Let's focus on the actual source of issues instead of the things being impacted by them.

Nah. Nerf it.

Thanks man, seems like you really have a great hold on things.

If I remember right, they did 'nerf it' on last PTS when a bunch of people screamed the same thing. Then we had the Signet Warden meta and it was quickly realized 'nerf it' (werewolf) didn't work and that had made it to live despite the blanket werewolf nerfs.

Sometimes you need to understand the core of an issue to properly assess and remediate.

Problem is that ww is such an issue on multiple fronts that yeah some players want action taken now. It's been going on for a minute and I personally am happy to see ww die down a bit immediately even if we have to revisit the changes later.

Also it's not always the dying that's and issue. I can fight ww to varying degrees of success. Sometimes it's more of the having the ones that want to run around in circles waiting for an opportunity kill or just being happy to be in your face and fearing you. You can't ignore them altogether like a tank because they have cumulative and execute damage and you can't easily kill them because they are tanky and can run away quickly if needed.

I don't blame players for enjoying ww but because of how accessible it is and easy to run, we're just seeing a lot and that's something I'm ok toning down on immediately..

I'm happy to have wws running around when they can play by the rules a bit more, same with DK.

Be a tank, be a hard hitter, be evasive but don't be pieces of all three on an easily piloted and highly accessible build.

Arunei · August 17

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

JohnRingo wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

JohnRingo wrote: »

AdonisJorge wrote: »

Good feedback. I think we need to nerf Werewolf further — all skills should cost health, magicka, stamina, and ultimate simultaneously

Actually you are correct. WW clearly need further nerfs. Sustain cost increases are easily managed (Sorc). Did their absurd damage get nerfed?

WW didn't need nerfed because of CoE being too overtuned. ZOS refuses to adjust that Class Mastery. Nerfing WW by raising Stam costs without adjusting CoE will just force all WWs into playing Sorc and Stam, which kills build diversity. It also means you're still going to see WW sustain easily on Sorc.

Let's focus on the actual source of issues instead of the things being impacted by them.

Nah. Nerf it.

Thanks man, seems like you really have a great hold on things.

If I remember right, they did 'nerf it' on last PTS when a bunch of people screamed the same thing. Then we had the Signet Warden meta and it was quickly realized 'nerf it' (werewolf) didn't work and that had made it to live despite the blanket werewolf nerfs.

Sometimes you need to understand the core of an issue to properly assess and remediate.

Problem is that ww is such an issue on multiple fronts that yeah some players want action taken now. It's been going on for a minute and I personally am happy to see ww die down a bit immediately even if we have to revisit the changes later.

Also it's not always the dying that's and issue. I can fight ww to varying degrees of success. Sometimes it's more of the having the ones that want to run around in circles waiting for an opportunity kill or just being happy to be in your face and fearing you. You can't ignore them altogether like a tank because they have cumulative and execute damage and you can't easily kill them because they are tanky and can run away quickly if needed.

I don't blame players for enjoying ww but because of how accessible it is and easy to run, we're just seeing a lot and that's something I'm ok toning down on immediately..

I'm happy to have wws running around when they can play by the rules a bit more, same with DK.

Be a tank, be a hard hitter, be evasive but don't be pieces of all three on an easily piloted and highly accessible build.

There's just one problem with all this: WW was a meme and not at all viable for YEARS. And instead of asking for fine tune adjustments like we're seeing with DK, people just demand "MAKE X THING WORSE" and ZOS takes the sledgehammer to them again because people get mad things are killing them in PvP.

The increase to Stam costs goes against the WHOLE REASON they were made so low to begin with, a fact they STILL have not directly addressed. Within about two months Mag WW has been made a meme again, and because WW isn't being given back the Stam recovery bonus, even Stam builds will have a harder time.

Things can be adjusted without clotheslining them onto the ground, ZOS has proven that a number of times. Yet there are ALWAYS the times they take heavyhanded approaches to other things.

Wuuffyy · August 17

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

JohnRingo wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

JohnRingo wrote: »

AdonisJorge wrote: »

Good feedback. I think we need to nerf Werewolf further — all skills should cost health, magicka, stamina, and ultimate simultaneously

Actually you are correct. WW clearly need further nerfs. Sustain cost increases are easily managed (Sorc). Did their absurd damage get nerfed?

WW didn't need nerfed because of CoE being too overtuned. ZOS refuses to adjust that Class Mastery. Nerfing WW by raising Stam costs without adjusting CoE will just force all WWs into playing Sorc and Stam, which kills build diversity. It also means you're still going to see WW sustain easily on Sorc.

Let's focus on the actual source of issues instead of the things being impacted by them.

Nah. Nerf it.

Thanks man, seems like you really have a great hold on things.

If I remember right, they did 'nerf it' on last PTS when a bunch of people screamed the same thing. Then we had the Signet Warden meta and it was quickly realized 'nerf it' (werewolf) didn't work and that had made it to live despite the blanket werewolf nerfs.

Sometimes you need to understand the core of an issue to properly assess and remediate.

Problem is that ww is such an issue on multiple fronts that yeah some players want action taken now. It's been going on for a minute and I personally am happy to see ww die down a bit immediately even if we have to revisit the changes later.

Also it's not always the dying that's and issue. I can fight ww to varying degrees of success. Sometimes it's more of the having the ones that want to run around in circles waiting for an opportunity kill or just being happy to be in your face and fearing you. You can't ignore them altogether like a tank because they have cumulative and execute damage and you can't easily kill them because they are tanky and can run away quickly if needed.

I don't blame players for enjoying ww but because of how accessible it is and easy to run, we're just seeing a lot and that's something I'm ok toning down on immediately..

I'm happy to have wws running around when they can play by the rules a bit more, same with DK.

Be a tank, be a hard hitter, be evasive but don't be pieces of all three on an easily piloted and highly accessible build.

This is the problem, I believe most don’t understand the situation.

Here’s why:

-Sorc CoE on PTS allows you to build more/less the same (based on extended 1v1s against damage builds on PTS) and thanks to Blood Magic healing especially (on bite), a playstyle like ‘bite spam’ is incentivized. I’d wager when they were targeting ‘highest performing’ they were aiming for what this wolf is capable of as opposed to what the average wolf is doing (my alts on live that aren’t sorc wolves can very much be stam and mag checked if not careful) but instead went with blanket nerfs affecting PvE also.

-werewolf health stack is reinforced as healing is nerfed and no alternatives are provided (such as better wep/spell scaling for Hiricine’s Rage, for example). In other words, the less healing I have the more likely I am to prioritize health stack.

-old werewolf didn’t work, we saw this pretty clearly when you’d only ever run into a handful of werewolves and they fell over pretty easily on average or were just health tanks. Werewolf lost damage on tooltips across the board, lost ‘pressure tools’ like Major and Minor defile, and DoT uptimes on Berserker Claws+ ‘Blood Claws’.

They added the sustain as that was an appropriate way to ‘lower the ceiling’ (damage wise while giving werewolf an edge should you not properly sustain (CoF spam, CoE mastery, likely future reworks having their own ‘CoE’)… removing the sustain and not returning damage, burst healing in favor of bite healing, defiles, and/or DoT uptimes serves to place them in a position worse than the U50 rework for PvP (especially should anything occur with Bite healing and Masteries in any meaningful capacity).

peacenote · August 17

I am 1,000% not qualified to comment on this from a theorycrafting perspective. But I still have something to say that some may appreciate.

A while back (let's say a month, maybe more), I logged into Cyrodiil and literally smile and laughed. Everyone was a wolf. I had assumed it was an exaggeration but on that day, on that moment, it wasn't. And I thought two things:

Oh, this is so fun to see werewolves everywhere. Why are people so up in arms? Metas come and go, let them enjoy it while it lasts.
I want to make one and check it out!

I just finished putting together my werewolf character to play around in Cyrodiil. Literally yesterday.

Arcanists were best in class DPS for... what, years? I just don't understand why some things are killed immediately and some things are ignored. I remember when Thrassian Stranglers was the thing to do in raids... it was nerfed before I was able to get the leads and even try it.

All of this to say... I don't like to see that werewolf is being messed with this patch. Not everyone plays 24/7 and gets to try things right away. Even if it's OP... I want to enjoy a little while before it changes. It feels like it's been not very long at all, in the grand scheme of things, since they became viable. Why can't the team just work on buffing the other classes and balance them after that?

AdonisJorge · August 17

One more week and not WW changes, looks like it will go to live server and will be a dead build besides sorcerers or some crazy all sustain builds

JimT722 · August 17

It's easier to nerf werewolf in general than fix sorc interactions. it just sucks that non sorc werewolves weren't a problem and will be in a bad spot. non sorc werewolves were almost perfect

Panderbander · August 17

Werewolf is allowed one good patch every 5 years, after which it is to be obliterated, as is tradition.

Wuuffyy · August 17

Panderbander wrote: »

Werewolf is allowed one good patch every 5 years, after which it is to be obliterated, as is tradition.

Why did they spend SO MUCH TIME AND EFFORT this go around?!

For fluff sake, you’re working towards pushing werewolf right back to the old demographic of <1%-5% of the playerbase (at most) actively playing werewolf as it is once again worked into a place that is werewolf-shaped but doesn’t feel like a werewolf (being mediocre doesn’t feel like werewolf. I’m sorry one-bar haters!)

I just WISH there was acknowledgement that they’re pigeonholing every werewolf in PvP to sorc, unnecessarily affecting PvE, and clearly not resolving the ‘sustain issue’ they are gunning for (because of sorc).

Even if we get changes now, those changes themselves are likely to be rushed and will almost certainly be ‘unchanging’ as well (on the off chance they make any changes and/or don’t just nuke CoE for wolf and have wolf completely suffer in PvP).

pinkpom · August 17

They should nerf the werewolf until the Sorcerer stops breathing.

Panderbander · August 17

pinkpom wrote: »

They should nerf the werewolf until the Sorcerer stops breathing.

"Many werewolves may die, but that is a sacrifice I am willing to make" - Sorcerers, 2026

ksbrugh · August 17

Wuuffyy wrote: »

We are told the PTS is for testing and the multiple avenues for feedback are for feedback. I am told things are allowed to change on the PTS as it’s ’a testing environment’.

Why is it that every medium of content is malleable with enough public or logical scrutiny yet werewolf balance must consist of vast endeavors of ‘pulling’ without so much as a meaningfully constructive ‘push’ along the way?

You say you’ve heard various avenues of feedback including that of the highly-obscured feedback on nightblade ‘Strife’ changes yet are unable to hear me say:

-you’re clearly balancing werewolf based on power levels from masteries (every resource and sustain adjustment mimics the over-the-top resource and health sustain from the CoE mastery and ‘Blood Magic’)

-you continuously require more and more health for heal scaling to achieve similar healing from pre-rework yet re-introduce heavy stam sustain issues in the playstyle causing me to be spread far too thin to do anything meaningful, especially lacking in many areas in-kit (no burst, no snares, no immobilizes, no S&B backbar/DW front bar, no monomyth, no Balorgh)

-you are directly affecting many playstyles heavily in PvE while citing your proposed changes are geared towards PvP

-you are forcing anyone still playing werewolf in PvP next patch into sorc which restarts the ‘nerf requests’ all over again for the exact same topic (high resource sustain still) while bite healing still carries werewolf’s ’in your face’ healing (which incentivizes low APM/effort ‘bite spam’ versus utilizing the entire kit)

Werewolf bites are free in the crown store now which means support for the werewolf has now ended.

NxJoeyD · August 17

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

JohnRingo wrote: »

AdonisJorge wrote: »

Good feedback. I think we need to nerf Werewolf further — all skills should cost health, magicka, stamina, and ultimate simultaneously

Actually you are correct. WW clearly need further nerfs. Sustain cost increases are easily managed (Sorc). Did their absurd damage get nerfed?

WW didn't need nerfed because of CoE being too overtuned. ZOS refuses to adjust that Class Mastery. Nerfing WW by raising Stam costs without adjusting CoE will just force all WWs into playing Sorc and Stam, which kills build diversity. It also means you're still going to see WW sustain easily on Sorc.

Let's focus on the actual source of issues instead of the things being impacted by them.

This is an interesting point but do we have any math on it? I keep hearing that people think this is what will happen but even when coe will the sustain be exactly the same?

Also wouldn't they be losing access to other masteries?

I'm not saying anything anyone is saying is wrong but if we want devs to take action shouldn't we be able to show them something?

I just don't want this to turn into here's a thought on how this took go so zos please take action on this thought or group of thoughts without any evidence.

I did do some math on this and the impacts are pretty significant from what I'm seeing.

Looking at a current WW on Live U50, let's assume 40k health, 19k Mag, & 22k stam. .. That may not be reflective of all WW but that's what my test WW build is. On those numbers, Sorcs CoE passive will return 443 Stam per proc & 379 Mag per proc.

If we just look at some of the current Live U50 skill costs and include a value for CoE's resource return:
Costs per cast:
Pounce: 1,071 (base) - 443 (CoE rebate) = net cost per cast 628
Roar: 1,071 - 443 = 628
Rip & Tear: 765 - 443 = 322
Blood Claws: 995 - 443 = 552

Ok, those numbers are on the low end. If the Devs were simply looking to offset the effects of the CoE passive on WW without impacting human Sorcs then one would expect that the skill cost increases aligned with how much (on average) resource rebate WW were getting ... but that's not what happened ... the skill cost increases went into orbit.

Costs per cast:
Pounce: 3,213 (U51 cost) - 443 = 2,770 +341%
Roar: 3,443 - 443 = 3,000 +377%
Rip & Tear: 1,800 - 443 = 1,357 +321%
Blood Claws: 2,340 - 443 = 1,897 +244%

Those increases go way beyond any impact CoE had on WW sustain.

Even if I were to assume that a WW would proc 2x CoE instances per GCD (which I think is unrealistic, consistently), those increases STILL float between 160% to 190%

So this begs the question, what is the desired result here? If the Devs wanted to impact WW sustain but not influence WW pressure then I, honestly, don't see any scenario where these changes don't diminish WW pressure.

The only thing that I can think of is that the Devs also want to encourage WW builds to re-allocate some of their resources from health into their other resource pools to try and compensate for these changes? But if that's the case, IMO, the Devs should release a note and tell players that's where their mindset is, so that the players who are affected by this can have input.

I don't main WW so these changes don't really affect my gameplay but it's really hard to be objective and not see the big impact these changes are going to have.

What I don't know, is how these changes impact WW vs a min/max DK with their upcoming changes. My gut tells me DK is on the winning side of these adjustments, but I really don't know as I haven't tested anything DK.

Wuuffyy · August 18

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

JohnRingo wrote: »

AdonisJorge wrote: »

Good feedback. I think we need to nerf Werewolf further — all skills should cost health, magicka, stamina, and ultimate simultaneously

Actually you are correct. WW clearly need further nerfs. Sustain cost increases are easily managed (Sorc). Did their absurd damage get nerfed?

WW didn't need nerfed because of CoE being too overtuned. ZOS refuses to adjust that Class Mastery. Nerfing WW by raising Stam costs without adjusting CoE will just force all WWs into playing Sorc and Stam, which kills build diversity. It also means you're still going to see WW sustain easily on Sorc.

Let's focus on the actual source of issues instead of the things being impacted by them.

This is an interesting point but do we have any math on it? I keep hearing that people think this is what will happen but even when coe will the sustain be exactly the same?

Also wouldn't they be losing access to other masteries?

I'm not saying anything anyone is saying is wrong but if we want devs to take action shouldn't we be able to show them something?

I just don't want this to turn into here's a thought on how this took go so zos please take action on this thought or group of thoughts without any evidence.

I did do some math on this and the impacts are pretty significant from what I'm seeing.

Looking at a current WW on Live U50, let's assume 40k health, 19k Mag, & 22k stam. .. That may not be reflective of all WW but that's what my test WW build is. On those numbers, Sorcs CoE passive will return 443 Stam per proc & 379 Mag per proc.

If we just look at some of the current Live U50 skill costs and include a value for CoE's resource return:
Costs per cast:
Pounce: 1,071 (base) - 443 (CoE rebate) = net cost per cast 628
Roar: 1,071 - 443 = 628
Rip & Tear: 765 - 443 = 322
Blood Claws: 995 - 443 = 552

Ok, those numbers are on the low end. If the Devs were simply looking to offset the effects of the CoE passive on WW without impacting human Sorcs then one would expect that the skill cost increases aligned with how much (on average) resource rebate WW were getting ... but that's not what happened ... the skill cost increases went into orbit.

Costs per cast:
Pounce: 3,213 (U51 cost) - 443 = 2,770 +341%
Roar: 3,443 - 443 = 3,000 +377%
Rip & Tear: 1,800 - 443 = 1,357 +321%
Blood Claws: 2,340 - 443 = 1,897 +244%

Those increases go way beyond any impact CoE had on WW sustain.

Even if I were to assume that a WW would proc 2x CoE instances per GCD (which I think is unrealistic, consistently), those increases STILL float between 160% to 190%

So this begs the question, what is the desired result here? If the Devs wanted to impact WW sustain but not influence WW pressure then I, honestly, don't see any scenario where these changes don't diminish WW pressure.

The only thing that I can think of is that the Devs also want to encourage WW builds to re-allocate some of their resources from health into their other resource pools to try and compensate for these changes? But if that's the case, IMO, the Devs should release a note and tell players that's where their mindset is, so that the players who are affected by this can have input.

I don't main WW so these changes don't really affect my gameplay but it's really hard to be objective and not see the big impact these changes are going to have.

What I don't know, is how these changes impact WW vs a min/max DK with their upcoming changes. My gut tells me DK is on the winning side of these adjustments, but I really don't know as I haven't tested anything DK.

So CoE gives both mag AND health + you have natural recovery ticks also.

At 43,076 health, CoE (and by extension Blood Magic) is giving me 4393 per ‘ability with a cost’. That is roughly 2k HPS with Battle Spirit debuff.

Of course 418 stam per bite (836 ‘stam recov’) with 20,941 stam.

This is also granting me 372 Magicka per cast (or 744 mag ‘recov’) for only 18615 max mag. I’ve also been told that both of these (health and standard resource sustain) affect core combat ‘ability’ usage also in some capacity.

The main skill (so the majority of your ‘uptime’) is primarily the bite (~1800 stam)

If we assume every bite is restoring nearly 400 stam and mag plus an additional 2k HPS after Battle Spirit debuff, AND potentially on some core combat ‘abilities’ also mixed with 600-900 mag and stam recov (this is little to no investment of course), you can pretty easily see how CoE is carrying werewolf tri-sustain and also how it is hard-carrying sorc sustain as well.

A werewolf’s natural counter before and after rework, a mag check, (for ‘healing-on-the-go’) becomes near impossible with CoE as well (or at least far more difficult than it should be). Also, them ‘wanting werewolf to stack other resources’ doesn’t really work either with the current model when A) they keep reducing the on-demand healing (43% reduction from pre-rework per another poster) requiring more and more health to achieve a similar goal and B- Our only significant wep/spell scaling heal, Hircine’s Rage, is significantly underpowered (20% less than a breath of life) and causes the user to take up to 12% increased damage.

Regardless, the point remains- the difference in sustain between a Sorc wolf and a non-Sorc wolf on PTS is astronomical and if that’s the case it’s logical to assume that some sustain should return and CoE (at least for wolf) should go rather than everyone being forced into Sorc to maintain okay sustain while having a decent health pool for healing.