Stop it. Just stop digging

Taarente · August 2

Don’t add more systems. Don’t invent another currency, reward track, favour, timed encounter or “hilarious” quest. Stop trying to repair weak ideas by increasing drop rates after everyone has abandoned them.

Take what already exists and ask one brutally simple question: is this genuinely enjoyable?

Because right now ZOS keeps releasing content that is tedious, irritating or half-finished, then proudly announcing that the system could be expanded. No. Put the shovel down. Fix the game people already liked before burying it beneath another layer of compulsory whimsy and grind.

Umbracat449 · August 2

they said they're not doing giant stories anymore. They're not doing a string of ten years worth of single player games held together by group trials and dungeons.

Which is what eso was (on the pve side)

So, they need to figure out what it's going to be now. And that can't be lists of chores.

karthrag_inak · August 2

Umbracat449 wrote: »

they said they've not doing giant stories anymore. They're not doing a string of ten years worth of single player games held together by group trials and dungeons.

Which is what eso was (on the pve side)

That is perfectly phrased. Khajiit loves the string of single players that has been ESO, but having these alternative mechanisms for gameplay like the Night Market and the Dynamic encounters also available is a delightful alternative.

This one does wonder why this cannot be a "why not both"-type of situation, and does hope for more new zone-level questing options eventually, but adding more open, low-commitment group activities is certainly very welcome, and except for the embarrassingly pathetic loot options from the wailing wall event's quests, khajiit applauds the results.

Ei8htba11 · August 2

IMO the Night Market was the right way. Dungeons and Trials feel more 'official', requiring a set group (and the involved dynamics, good and bad). That I feel sometimes puts people off.

The Night Market introduced challenges that legitimately needed more players involved, and allowed that to happen organically. You didn't need to be in a group, or the same group.. it worked as a cooperative experience, 'run what you brung'.. no pressure.. except that which the mobs placed upon you.

I can see that the Dynamic Encounters are attempting to recreate that on a smaller scale, but for some reason (drop rate), it's not working as successfully.

I'd agree with the OP, but suggest that what works gets refined instead of adding more for the sake of spectacle

IZZEFlameLash · August 2

It is absurd the amount of currencies we have to grind for tbh. Agreed.

DoofusMax · August 2

Got to wonder why someone would think that anything in Tamriel is somehow "compulsory." I think I can agree with "tedious" because there is quite a lot of that and I have described various things as "grind for the sake of grind," but "compulsory"? I can almost hear "We wants it, we needs it. Must have the precious" in there.

katanagirl1 · August 2

Ei8htba11 wrote: »

IMO the Night Market was the right way. Dungeons and Trials feel more 'official', requiring a set group (and the involved dynamics, good and bad). That I feel sometimes puts people off.

The Night Market introduced challenges that legitimately needed more players involved, and allowed that to happen organically. You didn't need to be in a group, or the same group.. it worked as a cooperative experience, 'run what you brung'.. no pressure.. except that which the mobs placed upon you.

I can see that the Dynamic Encounters are attempting to recreate that on a smaller scale, but for some reason (drop rate), it's not working as successfully.

I'd agree with the OP, but suggest that what works gets refined instead of adding more for the sake of spectacle

But you had to be in a group because of the way the instancing worked. If you went in solo the areas were empty.

rockDokRock · August 2

DoofusMax wrote: »

Got to wonder why someone would think that anything in Tamriel is somehow "compulsory." I think I can agree with "tedious" because there is quite a lot of that and I have described various things as "grind for the sake of grind," but "compulsory"? I can almost hear "We wants it, we needs it. Must have the precious" in there.

It's FOMO (Fear Of Missing Out). It's common in online games. You just have to decide what your time is worth; is grinding for hours/days worth it for a half assed cosmetic or something? I'm not bought off that cheaply but some items I'll bear in mind when it's convenient. I seldom go out of my way for them though. People just need to discipline themselves to do that. Some stuff is cool, true. But weight that against value/effort? Again, what's your time worth. I just want to play the game; walking away with something extra is just bonus.

StackonClown · August 2

Another thing I also feel is I wonder how much content is developed for thousands and thousands of hours only to be utilised by a smallish percentage of players.. i.e. some trials. what percentage of players do trials?

I'm not saying' dumb everything down, but are 99% of players doing trials??
is the effort with the skeleton staff now spent better elsewhere?

Malprave · August 2

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Ei8htba11 wrote: »

IMO the Night Market was the right way. Dungeons and Trials feel more 'official', requiring a set group (and the involved dynamics, good and bad). That I feel sometimes puts people off.

The Night Market introduced challenges that legitimately needed more players involved, and allowed that to happen organically. You didn't need to be in a group, or the same group.. it worked as a cooperative experience, 'run what you brung'.. no pressure.. except that which the mobs placed upon you.

I can see that the Dynamic Encounters are attempting to recreate that on a smaller scale, but for some reason (drop rate), it's not working as successfully.

I'd agree with the OP, but suggest that what works gets refined instead of adding more for the sake of spectacle

But you had to be in a group because of the way the instancing worked. If you went in solo the areas were empty.

Yeah, that's right, you had to be in a group. And everyone [snip] joined a group, went in, and had a great time.
[edited for baiting]

katanagirl1 · August 3

Malprave wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Ei8htba11 wrote: »

IMO the Night Market was the right way. Dungeons and Trials feel more 'official', requiring a set group (and the involved dynamics, good and bad). That I feel sometimes puts people off.

The Night Market introduced challenges that legitimately needed more players involved, and allowed that to happen organically. You didn't need to be in a group, or the same group.. it worked as a cooperative experience, 'run what you brung'.. no pressure.. except that which the mobs placed upon you.

I can see that the Dynamic Encounters are attempting to recreate that on a smaller scale, but for some reason (drop rate), it's not working as successfully.

I'd agree with the OP, but suggest that what works gets refined instead of adding more for the sake of spectacle

But you had to be in a group because of the way the instancing worked. If you went in solo the areas were empty.

Yeah, that's right, you had to be in a group. And everyone [snip] joined a group, went in, and had a great time.

It would have been nice to just group organically instead, though. There were many groups that did not do what the title of the GF said they would, I had to leave many for that reason. I created some groups myself and oftentimes players would just run off and do whatever as well.
[edited to remove quote]

Fischblut · August 3

IMO the Night Market was the right way. Dungeons and Trials feel more 'official', requiring a set group (and the involved dynamics, good and bad). That I feel sometimes puts people off.

The Night Market introduced challenges that legitimately needed more players involved, and allowed that to happen organically. You didn't need to be in a group, or the same group.. it worked as a cooperative experience, 'run what you brung'.. no pressure.. except that which the mobs placed upon you.

As someone who gathered mix of competent pugs+friends and held them together through vAS, vCR and vKA trifectas, Night Market was not much less difficult mentally.
In trials most of people have clear goal and perform well, and there was still lot of mental pressure. In Market, where I mostly was forming pick-up groups where requirements were the name of district/boss, 160 CP and 1 tank + 2 healers, I saw:
- people join and change their roles to mess up the group listing
- fake tanks (most notable example was high health person with a bow and no taunt)
- "dds" with 3k CPs who only hold heavy attack on mobs or do bow light attacks from far away
- half of group not following the leader
- people using relic skips when I state that we don't do skips cause not all in group have relic yet...

I never used "disband group" option before Night Market, but in Market I saw how bad some forced groups in overland content can be

And then some of those people join for Market dungeons, where their incompetence shines brightly cause there are no others to cover them

Nothing great about being in such groups.

Of course there were nice groups as well, where there were no problems - when I got such group, I didn't want to stop farming and stayed much longer than I planned

And with few friends we did multiple Opulent Ordeal trial no-death runs. But for district farming, forced grouping angers me about Night Market.

I would prefer open world where there are lot of people nearby doing different things and they can help each other on their way. Dark Anchors and Dynamic Encounters are perfect example of soft grouping - no need to be in group, can do few light attacks on some mob or boss, everyone gets loot, no stress

Taarente · August 3

DoofusMax wrote: »

Got to wonder why someone would think that anything in Tamriel is somehow "compulsory." I think I can agree with "tedious" because there is quite a lot of that and I have described various things as "grind for the sake of grind," but "compulsory"? I can almost hear "We wants it, we needs it. Must have the precious" in there.

They are not compulsory. Zos keep throwing yet another system at the wall hoping this time it’s a win for sure. So stop wasting your developers time on yet another garbage system.

IZZEFlameLash · August 3

Umbracat449 wrote: »

they said they've not doing giant stories anymore. They're not doing a string of ten years worth of single player games held together by group trials and dungeons.

Which is what eso was (on the pve side)

So, they need to figure out what

Fischblut wrote: »

IMO the Night Market was the right way. Dungeons and Trials feel more 'official', requiring a set group (and the involved dynamics, good and bad). That I feel sometimes puts people off.

The Night Market introduced challenges that legitimately needed more players involved, and allowed that to happen organically. You didn't need to be in a group, or the same group.. it worked as a cooperative experience, 'run what you brung'.. no pressure.. except that which the mobs placed upon you.

As someone who gathered mix of competent pugs+friends and held them together through vAS, vCR and vKA trifectas, Night Market was not much less difficult mentally.
In trials most of people have clear goal and perform well, and there was still lot of mental pressure. In Market, where I mostly was forming pick-up groups where requirements were the name of district/boss, 160 CP and 1 tank + 2 healers, I saw:
- people join and change their roles to mess up the group listing
- fake tanks (most notable example was high health person with a bow and no taunt)
- "dds" with 3k CPs who only hold heavy attack on mobs or do bow light attacks from far away
- half of group not following the leader
- people using relic skips when I state that we don't do skips cause not all in group have relic yet...

I never used "disband group" option before Night Market, but in Market I saw how bad some forced groups in overland content can be
And then some of those people join for Market dungeons, where their incompetence shines brightly cause there are no others to cover them Nothing great about being in such groups.

Of course there were nice groups as well, where there were no problems - when I got such group, I didn't want to stop farming and stayed much longer than I planned And with few friends we did multiple Opulent Ordeal trial no-death runs. But for district farming, forced grouping angers me about Night Market.

I would prefer open world where there are lot of people nearby doing different things and they can help each other on their way. Dark Anchors and Dynamic Encounters are perfect example of soft grouping - no need to be in group, can do few light attacks on some mob or boss, everyone gets loot, no stress

Yeah, my experience with NM and when I do random DLC dungeons right here. Why I am against more forced group contents because odds of being in a group where what you listed happen is very high. It makes me just wanna do the thing solo but some contents, it is just impossible either due to insane health pools (in case of NM and trials) that will eat up my time or flat out group only mechanics such as unbreakable CC that require someone else to bash (which, no one does in pug setting btw)

Necrotech_Master · August 3

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Ei8htba11 wrote: »

IMO the Night Market was the right way. Dungeons and Trials feel more 'official', requiring a set group (and the involved dynamics, good and bad). That I feel sometimes puts people off.

The Night Market introduced challenges that legitimately needed more players involved, and allowed that to happen organically. You didn't need to be in a group, or the same group.. it worked as a cooperative experience, 'run what you brung'.. no pressure.. except that which the mobs placed upon you.

I can see that the Dynamic Encounters are attempting to recreate that on a smaller scale, but for some reason (drop rate), it's not working as successfully.

I'd agree with the OP, but suggest that what works gets refined instead of adding more for the sake of spectacle

But you had to be in a group because of the way the instancing worked. If you went in solo the areas were empty.

i wouldnt say the areas were empty if you were solo on PC NA, but unless you were near one of the district entrances chances of running across someone was slim

a lot of that problem was mostly due to the 36 person player cap for the entire NM instance (instead of each district having their own individual instance, which would have been a much better way to handle it)

YffresTrill · August 3

I have been extremely disappointed by the Favors and "Dynamic" Encounters. The former are boring meaningless fetch quests, and the associated mails have failed to present a cohesive or even amusing story, and are riddled with typos. The latter might actually be the most unpleasant content I have ever experienced in a game and I really struggle to understand how anyone can enjoy it (and no, I haven't even been farming them). Spamming abilities for a few seconds in a massive crowd is not fun, nor is having no idea when the activity will even spawn. I also do not appreciate uninteractable NPCs.

The Tomes I was not disappointed by, because chore garbage is what I expected. I agree there are far too many currencies.

I agree with OP that iterating on these systems is not something to look forward to. I do not want more meaningless filler content. This is not a good use of limited dev resources.

I cannot comment on the new questlines as I have yet to do them, so perhaps these are a decent addition (though my personal bias against Sheogorath makes it unlikely I will feel that way about that particular one).

Tannus15 · August 3

I'm ready for the part where they look at all the systems they added and said "we'll build on this later!" and never did.

A great example is the theives guild and hybridization, which are finally, at long last, being addressed.
Solo dungeons are also another fantastic addirion to the immense amount of content in the game.

What else is on my bucket list? The 3rd class set from IA would be nice. Honestly I don't care if they don't add any additional mobs or bosses or areas, just the 3rd set.

I'd love to see more over the overland overhaul, with the base zones enhanced as they started doing with the starter zones, however I can understand if this is now a bridge too far with the lay offs

More mage / fighter guild content would be a nice addition to the old zones, as well as dark brotherhood!

Tra_Lalan · August 3

They have to add new things or else people will say the game is dead. With their limited resources they cant add stuff that needs more work. Some of the experiments went very well, other not so much.

I would be satisfied if they focused on polishing stuff that is already in the game, class reworks, some old system overhauls, but unortunetly todays player is like a spoiled child, it just needs a new flashy toy every day, even a good system with a lot of repeatable value is thrown away very fast and a "new thing" is always a better "wow" than old reworked one.

CAB_Life · August 3

Tra_Lalan wrote: »

They have to add new things or else people will say the game is dead. With their limited resources they cant add stuff that needs more work. Some of the experiments went very well, other not so much.

I would be satisfied if they focused on polishing stuff that is already in the game, class reworks, some old system overhauls, but unortunetly todays player is like a spoiled child, it just needs a new flashy toy every day, even a good system with a lot of repeatable value is thrown away very fast and a "new thing" is always a better "wow" than old reworked one.

Me too. I posit they should refine, flesh out and finish the systems they already have. Improve rewards, finish overland difficulty, improve group finder (again rewards for a daily trial or such could help here), finish improving the fidelity of zones. There’s so much they could do. All this short term, short burn content is not, nor will it generate the type of players who invest in MMOs long term. These people come and go and you cannot base your growth purely on casual players or sight-seers. It is the grandfathered playerbase, or engaging systems, that encourage them to stay.

AllenaNightWood · August 3

Ei8htba11 wrote: »

IMO the Night Market was the right way. Dungeons and Trials feel more 'official', requiring a set group (and the involved dynamics, good and bad). That I feel sometimes puts people off.

The Night Market introduced challenges that legitimately needed more players involved, and allowed that to happen organically. You didn't need to be in a group, or the same group.. it worked as a cooperative experience, 'run what you brung'.. no pressure.. except that which the mobs placed upon you.

I can see that the Dynamic Encounters are attempting to recreate that on a smaller scale, but for some reason (drop rate), it's not working as successfully.

I'd agree with the OP, but suggest that what works gets refined instead of adding more for the sake of spectacle

problem with night market is the pop cap of like 36 between all districts and hub

katanagirl1 · August 3

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Ei8htba11 wrote: »

IMO the Night Market was the right way. Dungeons and Trials feel more 'official', requiring a set group (and the involved dynamics, good and bad). That I feel sometimes puts people off.

The Night Market introduced challenges that legitimately needed more players involved, and allowed that to happen organically. You didn't need to be in a group, or the same group.. it worked as a cooperative experience, 'run what you brung'.. no pressure.. except that which the mobs placed upon you.

I can see that the Dynamic Encounters are attempting to recreate that on a smaller scale, but for some reason (drop rate), it's not working as successfully.

I'd agree with the OP, but suggest that what works gets refined instead of adding more for the sake of spectacle

But you had to be in a group because of the way the instancing worked. If you went in solo the areas were empty.

i wouldnt say the areas were empty if you were solo on PC NA, but unless you were near one of the district entrances chances of running across someone was slim

a lot of that problem was mostly due to the 36 person player cap for the entire NM instance (instead of each district having their own individual instance, which would have been a much better way to handle it)

You were on a different server, PS NA was empty in the three areas, I think most players were sitting in the central plaza trying to find a group. I was lucky to see even 1-2 players in the same area. I was on my nightblade in stealth often and could move through there undetected looking for players.

Reginald_leBlem · August 3

Dynamic encounters would benefit HUGELY from an in-game timer telling you when it will spawn.

As they are, they are simply terrible. If I don't stand in the location for 25+ minutes I am liable to miss one because I have no idea when it last spawned yet I seem to always just miss one, the Stonefalls one is annoyingly far from the wayshrine, and they only last a few minutes so it's easy to miss it completely.

shadyjane62 · August 4

Spent a total of 3 mins in NM. It was a wasted 3 minutes that I will never get back. Anytime a NM is up I will forgo subbing. That was two months with nothing for me to do.

Jigram91 · August 4

Refine and build upon what we already have instead of adding more broken things.

I agree but i doubt this is what's going to happen.

mdjessup4906 · August 4

Tra_Lalan wrote: »

They have to add new things or else people will say the game is dead. With their limited resources they cant add stuff that needs more work. Some of the experiments went very well, other not so much.

I would be satisfied if they focused on polishing stuff that is already in the game, class reworks, some old system overhauls, but unortunetly todays player is like a spoiled child, it just needs a new flashy toy every day, even a good system with a lot of repeatable value is thrown away very fast and a "new thing" is always a better "wow" than old reworked one.

People are always saying the game is dead. Just ignore them and make the stuff we have work.

Pixiepumpkin · August 4

My issue with ESO, and I have felt like this for a couple years now is that it feels like I am always "chasing the fun".

Meaning there seems to be more grind than fun gameplay. Too many currencies, too many "dailies". The game is not worth a subscription anymore.