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SUPRISE ! People dont like VENGEANCE
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AlistairRZ✭✭Same people trying to defend vengeance for weeks. Please don't bother with them. Its obvious already.6 -
aetherix8✭✭✭✭✭SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »Unfortunately ESO has zero reputation regarding PvP, bad/fair/good no one on the outside looking in would even know this game has PvP. They’d have to go back to beta or launch videos where it was actually marketed. ZOS abandoned the PvP community long ago. Feels akin to an estranged parent trying to find their kid they gave up for adoption.
There was a streamer called Arrowli who came from GW2 to try eso pvp. He likes playing ranger/bow builds. He joined during U49 where ranged builds were ineffective against overpowered DKs with 40k resist protective jewelry rife in stormhaven. Gave ESO PvP a shot for 2 months, concluded PvP is horribly imbalanced, and moved on to other games like BDO where at least ranged builds are viable. So actually, ESO's PvP reputation is negative and below zero.
My only recommendation is Vengeance these days. I tell other players to go there if they actually want fair systems and fights.
So?
Some guy who isn't familiar with ESO spent a brief time in game and drew uninformed conclusions from lack of experience.
Your crusade against PvP is revealing.
Why accuse me of being against pvp? I'm in Vengeance pvping every day lol. Tried out IC and BGs on an old necro build, found some unkillable werewolves that can run faster than you, sorcs that can streak 3 times in a row, got bored and logged out.
This is ESO's pvp reputation since 2015:If you like PVP that is player skill based then I would say GW2. If you like PVP that is gear based, then ESO.
ESO has a greater gear/level gap in all respects -takes longer to level, gear scaling is more extreme, scaling and acquisition of abilities and other class building aspects is more extreme. If you don't mind going through all that to be competitive then this point is not relevant, but for me its a bit of a pain to be far behind the curve unless I really grind.
ESO has never been known to have fair or balanced pvp. The most notable point in that thread is that Cyrodiil is fun and the barrier to entry is high. Although the terrible balance is we see is a 2025-2026 problem.
https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/429463/gw2-vs-eso
Every post from you lately seems to be a pro vengeance diatribe. That's being anti PvP. Vengeance will only hasten the closure of real PvP in ESO.
Oftentimes reading this thread can be quite entertaining. It will forever remain a mystery to me how you figured that players who prefer to fight other players in the Vengeance ruleset are against PvP. All the contrary, we would like to see it improved, and we want to see ESO PvP flourish with increased population caps. Obviously we’re not there yet but hopefully ZOS will keep working on it.PC EU - V4hn1
If you care about the future of ESO PvP, then help the devs test their ideas on how to improve it.6 -
LPapirius✭✭✭✭✭
✭Lmao what real PvP does ESO have? Stormhaven dueling where it's segregated into DK vs DK, WW v WW, sorc v sorc, cro v cro, NB v plar because there are clear mathematical loser classes? No functioning MMR/ELO system? Constantly lowered population caps in Gray Host? I'm not against PvP. I love the Veterancy system and it has provided incentives to grind. Vengeance is balanced and there's more interesting builds and tradeoffs than in Grey Host, IC, or BGs. You can still run healers, brusiers and brawlers, AoE or single target damage dealers, ranged burst or a turn and burn vanguard. There are still sorcs and arcanists that streak into hills and escape, but it's less silly than in live Cyrodiil. Oh and you still have people complaining that 6 defenders are holding up a 10 man group, or 2 players wiping off 5 defenders on the front porch of bleakers, but even that is more enjoyable than getting 1 shot by packs of corrosive dks and werewolves.
Everything you just posted made it abundantly clear you despise PvP except vengeance, which is only PvP in the same sense that ToT is PvP.3 -
afkpro✭✭✭i like vengeance. i can play some cyro on low level alts without fussing with builds. vengeance has like the same population as both ravenwatch and icereach. i don't understand the toxicity here.3
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Eldovar✭✭✭✭✭
✭i like vengeance. i can play some cyro on low level alts without fussing with builds. vengeance has like the same population as both ravenwatch and icereach. i don't understand the toxicity here.
Usually one or more of these reasons:
- People are angry that they can't easy farm newer players because they are now in their own bubble of the server because time invested must correlate with easy kills. So now they face equal opponents and that's no fun.
- People are very afraid Vengeance becomes the most popular mode and ZOS decides to close down grey host.
- People are angry that ZOS has decided to not work on GH anymore because it's a lost cause in their books and Vengeance is seen as the reason10 -
LPapirius✭✭✭✭✭
✭i like vengeance. i can play some cyro on low level alts without fussing with builds. vengeance has like the same population as both ravenwatch and icereach. i don't understand the toxicity here.
[snip]
Not sure it's going to make a whit of difference now though. Everything is on the chopping block now apparently.
[edited for conspiracy theory]Edited by ZOS_Icy on July 20, 2026 10:24AM4 -
fizzybeef✭✭✭✭✭i like vengeance. i can play some cyro on low level alts without fussing with builds. vengeance has like the same population as both ravenwatch and icereach. i don't understand the toxicity here.
[snip]
Not sure it's going to make a whit of difference now though. Everything is on the chopping block now apparently.
Understandable when the playerbase has been made unhappy and people stop playing and paying
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on July 20, 2026 10:26AM0 -
amiiegee✭✭✭✭✭Still never seen a single bar of vengeance on ps na or eu. Thought it would just take time go get started ?🤔0 -
blktauna✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Alls I know is that when I'm in on PC EU and NA its full and active. On EU we've even passed 2 pard on occasion, so if no one on PS is in, thats a PS issuePCNA
PCEU4 -
LadyLavina✭✭✭✭✭
✭i like vengeance. i can play some cyro on low level alts without fussing with builds. vengeance has like the same population as both ravenwatch and icereach. i don't understand the toxicity here.
It's because it's being forced. The "tests" were only successful and they were only able to call it "popular" because the other servers were disabled making Vengeance the only option.
Did you see how quickly they added Blackreach back after removing it @ update 50? They claimed they'd add it back if "population became an issue and within I believe a week, there was Blackreach again. It shows how out of touch the team behind the decision making is .
If they would just market it as a lower-level Cyrodiil experience made for the crowd that doesn't want to fuss with builds, that'd be one thing. Instead of doing that, they're ostracizing the people who have spent years honing skills and/or using whatever builds they choose. The Cyrodiil performance issues have been given band aid fixes for 12 years.
Vengeance isn't even a band aid, it's "let's cut the arm off and convince them a prosthetic is better."PC - NA @LadyLavina 1800+ CP PvP Tank and PvP Healer4 -
Marto✭✭✭✭✭
✭LadyLavina wrote: »i like vengeance. i can play some cyro on low level alts without fussing with builds. vengeance has like the same population as both ravenwatch and icereach. i don't understand the toxicity here.
It's because it's being forced. The "tests" were only successful and they were only able to call it "popular" because the other servers were disabled making Vengeance the only option.
Except they accounted for this source of bias. That's why many of the Vengeance tests did not close down Grey Host, in order to see how many players visit Vengeance when both options are available. They mention this in a couple of their long posts and livestreams going over their results. And the results were that Vengeance is still popular enough to justify further development.
Vengeance is a scientific test, and they've been approaching it scientifically. One step at a time, isolating variables, and controlling the environment.
When performance was being tested they closed Grey Host in other to raise Vengeance player numbers and find the worst-case scenario. It would be kinda pointless to test performance on a non-full server.
When balance, damage, or new features were being tested they didn't close down Grey Host, because they were more concerned with things like the game feeling too fast, too slow, too samey, too unpredictable, etc. under normal population conditions.
This upcoming one is a performance test. So yes, they need to close Grey Host to see if Vengeance can function while 900 people are firing off item sets.Edited by Marto on July 19, 2026 2:26AM"According to the calculations of the sages of the Cult of the Ancestor Moth, the batam guar is the cutest creature in all Tamriel"1 -
LadyLavina✭✭✭✭✭
✭Except they accounted for this source of bias. .
Enlighten me on how they accounted for this source of bias when it was disabled for the majority of the tests.
One test with GH enabled half the time does not equate to accounting for the bias.
ZOS themselves have the receipts for this, my man.
Vengeance-Only March 2025
Vengeance-Only June 2025
Vengeance-Only September 2025
Vengeance-Only for half the test November 2025
PC - NA @LadyLavina 1800+ CP PvP Tank and PvP Healer1 -
ToddIngram✭✭✭✭✭Well, now you can play vengeance or you can play vengeance.
Thanks ZOS, but there is a third option, and I'm taking it.2 -
blktauna✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
interesting as my guild is in on wednesday and Fri evenings pimetime and we are getting 2 bars of AD to contend with and occasionally 2 bars blue and red. But Fridays are def 2 bard AD until min 10PM
Then I move to NA and it's 40 a side fights in at least 2 locations so that's not very empty .PCNA
PCEU0 -
Luneca✭✭✭✭i like vengeance. i can play some cyro on low level alts without fussing with builds. vengeance has like the same population as both ravenwatch and icereach. i don't understand the toxicity here.
Usually one or more of these reasons:
- People are angry that they can't easy farm newer players because they are now in their own bubble of the server because time invested must correlate with easy kills. So now they face equal opponents and that's no fun.
- People are very afraid Vengeance becomes the most popular mode and ZOS decides to close down grey host.
- People are angry that ZOS has decided to not work on GH anymore because it's a lost cause in their books and Vengeance is seen as the reason
Not really, Vengeance isn't equal. Tell me, can you take NBs out of stealth as easy as in GH yet?
Beyond that, the classes are nowhere near balanced. DK is so powerful there that I killed 8 people solo in Vengeance in the last round -- something that would be impossible in GH or on any other class there except maybe NB.
The idea that it's equalized PvP just because it's stripped down and slower is just plain misguided. Just like the idea that only players interested in farming new players or easy kills like Gray Host over Vengeance.1 -
Luneca✭✭✭✭LadyLavina wrote: »i like vengeance. i can play some cyro on low level alts without fussing with builds. vengeance has like the same population as both ravenwatch and icereach. i don't understand the toxicity here.
It's because it's being forced. The "tests" were only successful and they were only able to call it "popular" because the other servers were disabled making Vengeance the only option.
Except they accounted for this source of bias. That's why many of the Vengeance tests did not close down Grey Host, in order to see how many players visit Vengeance when both options are available. They mention this in a couple of their long posts and livestreams going over their results. And the results were that Vengeance is still popular enough to justify further development.
Vengeance is a scientific test, and they've been approaching it scientifically. One step at a time, isolating variables, and controlling the environment.
When performance was being tested they closed Grey Host in other to raise Vengeance player numbers and find the worst-case scenario. It would be kinda pointless to test performance on a non-full server.
When balance, damage, or new features were being tested they didn't close down Grey Host, because they were more concerned with things like the game feeling too fast, too slow, too samey, too unpredictable, etc. under normal population conditions.
This upcoming one is a performance test. So yes, they need to close Grey Host to see if Vengeance can function while 900 people are firing off item sets.
If they want to be scientific they can refer to the CS books and how expensive operations in a set instance of time are when you branch so many conditionals.
They can also see how expensive it is to use floating point and calculate areas in a space, then find the highest and lowest value among a group in them.
How about how expensive it is to smart heal, and how all of those skills are spammable without restraint? How skills doing the above are spammable without restraint? How sets doing the above are wearable without restraint?
We can go on, but you get the point. They've set the game up in a way that goes against the norms of software development. You don't use floating point when you don't have to precisely because it increased the cost and complexity of a problem the more you do it. But here the game is litered in it for even something as basic as movement speed and position -- before we get into combat.
Even using floating point for positioning to calculate things like arcs? Do we really need that level of realism in the physics engine when it has to be cutting performance? And it leads to buggy behavior like me being able to make people force miss me point blank?
I don't think so. And until they bother addressing that, doubt they will ever fix the issue. Even if there was a server upgrade, how long before they implement even more sets and skills until it reaches its limit? Or the meta swings towards players and encourages that kind of behavior that bogs down the server?
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LadyLavina✭✭✭✭✭
✭
If they want to be scientific they can refer to the CS books and how expensive operations in a set instance of time are when you branch so many conditionals.
They can also see how expensive it is to use floating point and calculate areas in a space, then find the highest and lowest value among a group in them.
How about how expensive it is to smart heal, and how all of those skills are spammable without restraint? How skills doing the above are spammable without restraint? How sets doing the above are wearable without restraint?
We can go on, but you get the point. They've set the game up in a way that goes against the norms of software development. You don't use floating point when you don't have to precisely because it increased the cost and complexity of a problem the more you do it. But here the game is litered in it for even something as basic as movement speed and position -- before we get into combat.
Even using floating point for positioning to calculate things like arcs? Do we really need that level of realism in the physics engine when it has to be cutting performance? And it leads to buggy behavior like me being able to make people force miss me point blank?
I don't think so. And until they bother addressing that, doubt they will ever fix the issue. Even if there was a server upgrade, how long before they implement even more sets and skills until it reaches its limit? Or the meta swings towards players and encourages that kind of behavior that bogs down the server?
I appreciate the genuine insight/contributions here rather than baseless claims of "how scientific" it was driven by Cope and easily disproven by a few links. It's also entirely unhelpful as some in this thread have done to talk about how the vets just want to prey on the noobs. I'm sure that's the position held by some, but for others (and I would argue the majority) it's about established precedent over the course of 12+ years and the wishes of the majority being disregarded. Healthy discourse is good for all and I applaud your grounded approach here.
You make a lot of valid points as well. I'm in Networking/I.T. and can't help but shake my head when folks say that "just upgrading the servers" is the solution. Spending 6 figures on interior remodeling of one's home doesn't fix the cracks in the foundation, metaphorically. Player count is the kind of thing that doesn't lie though, so I'm optimistic that ZOS will make the right decision if Vengeance continues to fall on its face outside of the forced tests.PC - NA @LadyLavina 1800+ CP PvP Tank and PvP Healer0 -
Hi everyone! I was looking for a suitable thread to post my feedback on Vengeance, so I’ll write it here.
Maybe I missed something, but making Vengeance the only available Cyrodiil campaign for two weeks came as a huge surprise to me. Many people wonder why ESO’s player count keeps dropping year after year. Well, here is your answer: it’s due to decisions that force players into game modes they don’t enjoy. Just keep at least one other campaign running alongside Vengeance, and you can play your Vengeance campaign to your heart's content. Why was the decision made to strip players of the right to choose which Cyrodiil campaign to play in?
Here’s another thought for you: testing is work, and the developers asked the community to help them improve the game. That’s understandable, and we agreed to take part in the testing. However, we didn't agree to be hired by ZOS as full-time testers. How many times have you forced players into the Vengeance campaign now? Four or five times, if I recall correctly. And nobody ever said this campaign was meant to be permanent or a replacement for existing ones; its specific purpose was testing to improve the gameplay experience in other Cyrodiil campaigns. At any rate, that is how many players understand the purpose of this test campaign. All in all, it’s just another disappointment.2 -
Eldovar✭✭✭✭✭
✭I played some Vengeance tonight and like other people are reporting on the forum and elsewhere, enabling only set proc bonuses (while keeping the 4 other set stats disabled) made for a giant lag fest for the first time with so many fighting at once. Skills not firing half of the time and light and heavy attacks not firing in big fights etc.
So this time they will probably have all the data they need what is causing lag in Cyro. Doubt they can ever fix it since much other stuff is still disabled in Vengeance and it’s already a mess now.Edited by Eldovar on July 21, 2026 1:00AM0 -
ceruulean✭✭✭✭It seems sets like Rattlecage don't work, but proc sets like Maarselok, Vicious Death, and Rush of Agony do. This is kinda... not cool. Lol. For example, Rattle Cage gives the Major Sorcery buff, and spell damage increases to 6k as expected, but the skills do not do more damage. Skills don't scale off stats, they seem to have fixed values. But master's dual wield scales twin slashes. [snip]
[edited for profanity bypass]Edited by ZOS_Icy on July 21, 2026 10:39AM0 -
JohnRingo✭✭✭alternatelder wrote: »
Vengeance can't muster up one population bar, from any team, during primetime on opening night? C'mon.0 -
Udrath✭✭✭✭When they shut down sotha sil and renamed it ravenwatch that killed a large population dedicated to no-cp. Many including myself went to full time battlegrounds, quit, or went to champion points enabled. Then like 3 years later they bring it back after the no-proc test was over. But at that point nearly everyone had moved on, so it died.
Now we’re kinda seeing the same trend where they’re splitting the player base. Lots of “pvp’ers” were super motivated about no-proc, but it died so fast on NA-PC. People complained about proc’s so much they deleted one community, instead of balancing the on going issues. Meanwhile they kept releasing proc sets and even more unbalanced items. 😭0
