I don't have anything against the night market requiring a group, but the worst part about it is the overall design tends to separate you from the people that you want to play with. Case in point - you can have as a large of a group as you want to go get your dungeon keys, and then you have to break up into groups of 4 to do the dungeons. Which isn't bad if you are going to go do it right away, but if not then your entire group is no longer on the same page because they're all trying to get the dungeons done at different times.

You can't even step in and help others unless YOU go and regrind to get the dungeon keys.

The whole system is just aweful. Get rid of the dungeon keys. Make accessing various areas based solely on rep. Make it so you don't have to refarm anything to gain access once you complete certain phases. That was the most egregious issues with night market IMO.

My complaints:
The endless grind to get into dungeons/trial was terrible.

It was borderline impossible to get relics unlocked with a pug group, because if a handful of people had the relics and a handful didn't, navigating the Parch and Sorrow's friend became impossible. I think an improvement would mimic the skittering a little more-- have an upper level that can navigate without all the mobs that is only accessible via some ramps you need the relics to unlock, rather than outright walls blocking you from getting to the bosses you need unless you go miles around.

Anything with specific mechanics to complete should have something in-game that gives you some idea how to do it. A poster, a book, an NPC yelling suggestions from the sidelines, etc.

There was a significant discrepancy between the special achievements in the dungeons. Several groups got the "kill spider before it eats someone" either by accident or with an ounce of focus. Multiple groups were able to patiently take turns and navigate the sorrows portal. The dragons were much harder.

Wandering bosses should go around the skirmish area, and only agro if you hit them.

I never want to see the werewolf boss ever again. EVER.

The keys were the worst part. Trying to get 12 people coordinated to all have their keys to get into the trial made for some delays at times because inevitably, someone always thought they had one and realized they didn't and then a whole farm had to happen. And because you can't stack keys, if you already had yours, if you helped, you lost the new ones. Letting them stack at least to a few would be beneficial.

I personally loved the dune ripper boss. That first time getting swallowed was really cool and remains one of my favorite unique boss encounters.

I do agree with @Reginald_leBlem 's point that making a pug where some people had relics and some people didn't was especially difficult. I often saw people fail to get to a boss when the group was started after the lead arrived (parch, for example). People who couldn't get through the walls would try, die, try a different way, die, and then leave group without saying anything or waiting for someone to come help them navigate.

The other thing I'd like to see is less frequent mob respawns, at least by a margin. You shouldn't be getting mobbed from behind from a group you just killed because it respawned as you were killing the next set. This combined with how tight the clusters were meant constant pressure. Then add in people (either from your group or just random people from zone) trying to get to boss fights, dragging half the zone with them which, a lot of the time, broke the mobs. They'd stay aggro'd, at least for a time, but you couldn't do any direct damage to them, only AOE skills because they were in some weird limbo of aggro'd/fighting you, but outside of their leash radius. Overall, it was pretty unpleasant.

I enjoyed all aspects of Night Market except two...

1. The grind for the keys. This was a real problem if you run in multiple guilds and help out multiple groups, it really put a barrier between running the trial with one guild on one night, and another guild on the next night. Either the keys need to stack, be tradable, or for it to just be a one-time unlock. There's plenty of ways to solve the key issue - most of which have been mentioned by others already.

2. The set item rewards were pretty rubbish. I'd have preferred for bosses to drop the associated dungeon sets - curated, including weapons. For example, those bosses based on bosses within Cradle of Shadows, would drop set items from Cradle of Shadows; the Bal Sunner boss would drop Bal Sunner dungeon set items. At least this would have allowed players to complete their sticker books and would have benefited players old and new. The overland set drops only really benefit newer players. (I was generally happy with the rewards boxes except for the set item choice.)


To the OP points:

I don't agree with the call for it to support non-group play any further - not everything in ESO has to be soloable - and in many cases, much of the night market could be soloed anyway (either through stealth play for dailies, just brute force and tactics for the trash packs, and both the oddities and races could be soloed).

True it could be hit-and-miss with PUGs, but we pulled some people into the trial when we were short and in most cases that worked out well. I didn't see anything specific with the group finder and PUGs that aren't the same issues when trying to run DLC (vet/HM) dungeons. Maybe night market highlights those issues more, but that's what guilds are for, and why the key grind needs to be fixed to be more multi-guild friendly.

I loved the duneripper boss... I wouldn't want that to go... that was the only new and truly unique boss within the precincts (everything else was a variation on existing boss mechanics). If anything I'd make it harder to kill at the end once you'd killed it on the inside - as it worked out, you did the inside mechanic, and then it pretty much died instantly - a few extra HP for the final killing blow (providing it stopped roaming) would have been good.


And a couple of other final thoughts:

I do agree with other comments that the roaming boss shouldn't auto-agro when it roams through one of the other boss or skirmish areas - that often resulted in a wipe with a PUG group, and was just annoying when the boss was almost nearly dead. They need to roam just outside the boss areas, far away enough to not auto-agro, but close enough people can pull them in if trying for the achievement.

I'd have changed some of the terminology - the night market "dungeons" are not dungeons in the ESO sense, they're more akin to world bosses that require a group (a WB+ if you like, and if you want to compare with the delve+ format from Craglorn). I'd also have used the standard icons on the map to avoid confusion (e.g. merchant icons) rather than the new plethora of night market specific icons. Ironically, a new icon for the WB+ would have avoided confusion at the start, but that was the only one that wasn't unique.

So overall I was pretty happy how it worked out for its first release - and I'm looking forward to it coming back so I can complete another faction and get the other dye colours and monster sets.

DarkStrifeYT wrote: »

Imo the night market was a huge failure, these are what shouldn't be done next time
(this is in my opinion and want to hear what you guys dont want next time)
1) Make it REQUIRE group play
2) Require keys for dungeon and trials
3) THE DAMN DUNERIPPER (im still mortified of that thing)
4) Complexity of reputation

I got quickly bored of it within a week.

I very much liked NM and hope it will return in the future.

1). As long as most of it is doable with pugs (as it was the case this time), it's fine. (The only one I could not do is Festering Timelines. But it's a hard one, and I'm not an end-game player.)

A couple of improvements I would like to see:
- Some kind of indicator on the map showing which bosses are being currently fought. This way more solo oriented people would know which way to go if they want to just tag along.
- May be increasing the player cap per instance a bit so solo oriented players have an easier time finding other players in the districts.

2). As some other players previously mentioned, ability to stack the keys would be a huge improvements. Completely removing the need to repeat would mean that people that join the event later would have a much harder time completing the objectives. But something definitely needs to be done to alleviate the grind.

3). Loved it. Something truly new.

4). Not sure what this is about.

Another thing I would like to see is better rewards from bosses. Trial pieces were nice, but overland gear that can be bought for a pocket change were not.

DarkStrifeYT wrote: »

Imo the night market was a huge failure, these are what shouldn't be done next time
(this is in my opinion and want to hear what you guys dont want next time)
1) Make it REQUIRE group play

ZOS has the numbers and they told us it wasn’t a failure. They were pleased with how much group finder saw use.

The only problems are the rewards (which they said they’re looking into) and the key system (which we haven’t had comment on).

Disagree on grouping, I spend a lot of time alone and a lot of repetitive content eventually gets really boring solo. Maybe they can have one 4th wing for soloers or something though that wouldn't be terrible.

Soarora wrote: »

DarkStrifeYT wrote: »

Imo the night market was a huge failure, these are what shouldn't be done next time
(this is in my opinion and want to hear what you guys dont want next time)
1) Make it REQUIRE group play

ZOS has the numbers and they told us it wasn’t a failure. They were pleased with how much group finder saw use.

The only problems are the rewards (which they said they’re looking into) and the key system (which we haven’t had comment on).

OP said it was in their opinion. My opinion as well. We have a right to have our own thoughts.

If the event was so much fun, let the fun be the reward.

shadoza wrote: »

[*] Play Your Way was a moto of ESO in the start. People that were there from the beginning may feel like the game is no longer what it was originally intended to be.

Play your way has never meant they can't create group content. ESO has had group-only content since the start as well.

AScarlato wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

[*] Play Your Way was a moto of ESO in the start. People that were there from the beginning may feel like the game is no longer what it was originally intended to be.

Play your way has never meant they can't create group content. ESO has had group-only content since the start as well.

Agree with AScarlato.

I see ESO as a collection of different games - there's some stuff that takes grouping (some aspects of PVP, ToT card game, vet/HM dungeons, trials, etc.) - then there's a load of stuff that can be done solo (questing, RP, maelstrom, some normal dungeons, the ToT card game against NPCs, the new story mode dungeons are coming, etc.) - and some stuff can be done either/or (IA, and most of the solo stuff, etc.).

I also don't see Night Market being against the moto, rather it's just another game within ESO targeted to group play (as with most dungeons and trials) with some aspects that can be done solo if desired. But within the night market (as with a vet HM DLC dungeon) you can certainly play however you want, wear whatever sets you want, play it sneaky, or full-on melee, or do whatever works for you to get the job done.

To put it another way - I see that moto applying to how you're supported in your approach within each of the games inside ESO, rather than the selection of games ZOS make available within the ESO universe (and by extension whether or not they're designed for solo/duo/group play).

That said, I think ESO_player123's idea of showing which bosses are in active combat would be a good improvement. That way solo players could tag along and join-in the fight to get things done without having to group to see where's all the action can be found. This works well for dolmens and other world encounters, I don't see why it couldn't be replicated in night market.

IMO the biggest issue was a misunderstanding in the original communication from ZOS - people seemed to pick up on ZOS saying people could solo, but would find it challenging. It might have avoided disappointment if they just said clearly from the start that it was a group zone, akin to a large dungeon or trial instance, and you'd need to group.

The requirements to even enter the dungeons and trial were extremely tedious, so I didn't even bother to play them again after the first time.

Gabriel_H wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

MMO = Massive multiplayer Online (Roll-Playing game)
No group in that description.
MMOs are not Co-op games like FPS are; grouping is not necessary in MMORPGs
The focus of a MMO is the size of the map and the seamless feature. The RPG was (and is) a type of game. Socializing was optional and didn't really become a thing until live chats became a normal feature.

You fundamentally misunderstand what an MMO is. It is both a solo game (for easier content) and a co-op (for harder content). Solo only is coming later, the NM was the co-op stuff.

No, I did not misunderstand MMORPG. I have been gaming forever and I know what I know. You can change the meaning to please yourself, but it does not change the history. Live in your own reality.

Consider that almost the entire game can be done with a friend or in a group, but only a portion of the game can be done solo. It is not balanced. If you want to make excuses, that's one you; however, excuses won't pay the bills when the solo players get frustrated enough to walk away from subs. They purchased the game. They can play the old content without paying more and let those that are getting the new content, end-gamers/cappers and groupies support the game financially.

(No one asked for SOLO ONLY content. No one)

If one wanted to get detailed, the new bonus for classes support groups. The restructuring of the classes support groups. The restructuring of the pots support groups. If one cannot see the writing on the wall here, it is because that one doesn't want to see it.

You do you. Whatever makes you feel better. I cannot say more.

I like that it required group play or a stealthy build.

The keys should stack maybe three times.

Loved that stupid duneripper, best boss, escape through a sphincter and dive back in. Disgusting. So ridiculous it's iconic.

Favour wasn't hard. Winning team gained less per favour ball on the ground but the same from quests..

Night Market was like an overland dungeon hybrid and I enjoyed it as is. I am worried that it will get nerfed into the ground because of the "toxic casual" attitude that sometimes pops up. It's finding the balance for those who have an hour to make progress on their heavy attack build and those who play in semi to fully comped groups and are just pushing through.