Is everyone after 'no death runs'?

Pcgamer · May 24

Is it just me or are most players after no death run achievements these days. Even in big trials groups like nm opulent decent players are asking for no death runs even when the trial was not advertised as that in lfg. It puts a lot of pressure on people that are still learning the trial.

I dont care that players want this but dont try to force it on random groups. Some of us have terrible internet cos we live far from eso servers and alsomsome of us have older computers.
It feels like i get in a group and they want to do their achievements and wipe after wipe with no consideration that not everyone in the group signed up for the achievement. This has been happening in night market dungeon.

Vynera · May 24

Most of the time it's either said in the title or description if a group wants to do a no-death run.
Simply don't join these groups if you dont want to do that achievement or start your own group?

Treeshka · May 24

All the groups i saw who wants to get specific achievement types it in the title or adds a description to state the goal of the group.

It is really strange if people force no death achievement and demand wipe after a death if there were no explanation in the group finder.

CalamityCat · May 24

If a group is open to all and then the lead decides they want no death, I'd just laugh and quit the group unless I felt charitable.

Likewise if they want to spend hours re-running the same trial, if you didn't sign up for it then just quit whenever you want. That's a level of effort I'd put in for a guild but not really strangers. The only time I'd make the exception is when it feels like we're within a whisker of getting that achievement and it's not horribly late at night.

I think if you want a more relaxed trial, it's safest to be the group lead and set up the group finder. Then you're able to eject anyone who makes unreasonable demands or behaves like a jerk. Or try and only join groups that seem more relaxed and be prepared to quit if they turn out to be a problem.

Pinktraining · May 25

Sometimes the leader wants someone to stay alive because that person is indeed "dying too often and impacting the team." Certain mechanics, such as the final boss of HOF, cause an additional robot to spawn for each player who dies.
Not to mention, the team needs to expend extra effort to revive the dead, and reviving can be difficult in certain scenarios.
Therefore, wanting team members to stay alive is sometimes for the sake of a smooth run, not for the sake of achievements.

Corrected errors caused by spell check.

katanagirl1 · May 25

Pinktraining wrote: »

Sometimes the leader wants someone to stay alive because that person is indeed "dying too often and impacting the team." Certain mechanics, such as the final boss of The Horde of Fates, cause an additional robot to spawn for each player who dies.
Not to mention, the team needs to expend extra effort to revive the dead, and reviving can be difficult in certain scenarios.
Therefore, wanting team members to stay alive is sometimes for the sake of a smooth run, not for the sake of achievements.

I don’t understand this first reference, it’s not ESO.

Doubtful. Getting a no death run takes many attempts, it would be faster to just rez players and keep going.

Soarora · May 25

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Pinktraining wrote: »

Sometimes the leader wants someone to stay alive because that person is indeed "dying too often and impacting the team." Certain mechanics, such as the final boss of The Horde of Fates, cause an additional robot to spawn for each player who dies.
Not to mention, the team needs to expend extra effort to revive the dead, and reviving can be difficult in certain scenarios.
Therefore, wanting team members to stay alive is sometimes for the sake of a smooth run, not for the sake of achievements.

I don’t understand this first reference, it’s not ESO.

Doubtful. Getting a no death run takes many attempts, it would be faster to just rez players and keep going.

Assembly General does spawn a robot on death, maybe they meant that? Horde of Fates... Halls of Fabrication... anyway, not Night Market related.

Pinktraining · May 25

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Pinktraining wrote: »

Sometimes the leader wants someone to stay alive because that person is indeed "dying too often and impacting the team." Certain mechanics, such as the final boss of The Horde of Fates, cause an additional robot to spawn for each player who dies.
Not to mention, the team needs to expend extra effort to revive the dead, and reviving can be difficult in certain scenarios.
Therefore, wanting team members to stay alive is sometimes for the sake of a smooth run, not for the sake of achievements.

I don’t understand this first reference, it’s not ESO.

Doubtful. Getting a no death run takes many attempts, it would be faster to just rez players and keep going.

Oh, my bad. The spell checker somehow corrected the abbreviation of HOF to The Horde of Fates.

Varana · May 25

Pcgamer wrote: »

Is it just me or are most players after no death run achievements these days. Even in big trials groups like nm opulent decent players are asking for no death runs even when the trial was not advertised as that in lfg. It puts a lot of pressure on people that are still learning the trial.

I dont care that players want this but dont try to force it on random groups. Some of us have terrible internet cos we live far from eso servers and alsomsome of us have older computers.
It feels like i get in a group and they want to do their achievements and wipe after wipe with no consideration that not everyone in the group signed up for the achievement. This has been happening in night market dungeon.

The Night Market trial is a bit of an outlier here - apart from doing it three times (once for every side), No Death is the only achievement to get there: no speed, hard mode, or any other side achievements.
And no loot.
There is literally no reason to run this trial more than three times.

It's also not overly hard once you get used to the mechanics and a few specific enemies.

Which means that No Death is overrepresented by a lot in this case. It's the only thing people probably don't already have, and it seems at least kind of achievable.

Blood_again · May 25

Pcgamer wrote: »

Is it just me or are most players after no death run achievements these days. Even in big trials groups like nm opulent decent players are asking for no death runs even when the trial was not advertised as that in lfg. It puts a lot of pressure on people that are still learning the trial.

I dont care that players want this but dont try to force it on random groups. Some of us have terrible internet cos we live far from eso servers and alsomsome of us have older computers.
It feels like i get in a group and they want to do their achievements and wipe after wipe with no consideration that not everyone in the group signed up for the achievement. This has been happening in night market dungeon.

It is simple:
If no achievement goal was mentioned in the group title/description, the group is for a simple run, not the achievement one.
Those who join the group and demand others to work for an achievement should go and gather their own group.
If the group leader changes the goal, it is fair for you to declare that you're leaving because of that and then leave. It is the leader's fault that they gathered the group for the trial and then told everybody to go do [Master Angler] or whatever together.

Some players are just loud and demanding about some achievements they wish. They are the minority.
It happens not only in NM. I've been watching the same behavior since trials became puggable.

Fun fact: Usually those players who joined a strong group and suggested the achievement run are the least able to do the achievement.
I've seen a lot when such players fontained with ideas to do no-death fastrun, then the same players died on the first trash pack.
So, if you see them in your group, just ignore them. If the leader follows these players' idea, leave the group. You do not owe working for an achievement you didn't join for.

Cooperharley · May 25

I don’t have any issue with people wanting no-death achievements, but I do think the goal needs to be stated clearly before the group forms.

If the listing says “no death,” “achievement run,” or something similar, then fair enough. Anyone joining knows what they signed up for. But if the group is advertised as a normal clear, especially in a newer trial or event activity where people are still learning, it is unfair to suddenly expect everyone to reset over and over because one or two people want the achievement.

Night Market is probably making this feel worse because there are not many long-term reasons to keep running it after the basic clears, so no-death becomes one of the only obvious goals left. But that still does not mean random groups should be treated like achievement groups by default.

I think the simple rule should be: achievement runs are opt-in. Put it in the group title or description. If the goal changes mid-run, people should be free to leave without being blamed. Wanting a smooth run is reasonable, but forcing no-death expectations on players who never agreed to that is not.

Frayton · May 25

I noticed the surge in no death runs after ZOS publicly congratulated the first group who did it.

Soarora · May 25

Frayton wrote: »

I noticed the surge in no death runs after ZOS publicly congratulated the first group who did it.

Most likely not related, just timing. Most people want the base clear before they go for no death.

wolfie1.0. · May 25

For most dlc dungeons and trails, a no death achievement is the second hardest one to get. The only harder one is a trifecta.

MasterSpatula · May 25

"No Death Run" in a GF group was always just a weird thing to even try for. It's insane that most of the time that's all that's even up there in the Group Finder.

Someone needs to start making explicitly "no pressure" runs. Cause what I'm seeing in the GF is getting ridiculous.

Pcgamer · May 25

Treeshka wrote: »

All the groups i saw who wants to get specific achievement types it in the title or adds a description to state the goal of the group.

It is really strange if people force no death achievement and demand wipe after a death if there were no explanation in the group finder.

This was in a ciuple if nm dungeons

Pcgamer · May 25

MasterSpatula wrote: »

"No Death Run" in a GF group was always just a weird thing to even try for. It's insane that most of the time that's all that's even up there in the Group Finder.

Someone needs to start making explicitly "no pressure" runs. Cause what I'm seeing in the GF is getting ridiculous.

Agree with you 100%

heaven13 · May 25

Pcgamer wrote: »

Treeshka wrote: »

All the groups i saw who wants to get specific achievement types it in the title or adds a description to state the goal of the group.

It is really strange if people force no death achievement and demand wipe after a death if there were no explanation in the group finder.

This was in a ciuple if nm dungeons

There are no Night Market dungeon achievements for No Death, the trial is the only one. So it seems strange that people would be asking to do a no death run for a dungeon that doesn't track that as an achievement.

spartaxoxo · May 25

heaven13 wrote: »

Pcgamer wrote: »

Treeshka wrote: »

All the groups i saw who wants to get specific achievement types it in the title or adds a description to state the goal of the group.

It is really strange if people force no death achievement and demand wipe after a death if there were no explanation in the group finder.

This was in a ciuple if nm dungeons

There are no Night Market dungeon achievements for No Death, the trial is the only one. So it seems strange that people would be asking to do a no death run for a dungeon that doesn't track that as an achievement.

Maybe they wanted to wipe so they could reset the boss to get a missed achievement like the wyrm?

Ordinator199 · May 26

Not everyone, but its an achivement/title that has time cap on it so those who don't have it yet are more likely to try and get it.

Koshka · May 26

I think this new trial is a bit of an outlier. People are pushing for it because it's a time-limited event and it's a somewhat cool title that is far easier to achieve than other trial titles (in this trial there's pretty much no dps checks or anything, just need to get used to mechs).
I understand the frustration, though, and I personally wouldn't go for nodeath with pugs.

Fischblut · May 26

There are plenty of people who are just glad to clear Opulent Ordeal trial even with deaths - so best way to do it is to become a group lead yourself

I cleared this trial 5 times, and 4 were no death. The only reason the 5th run was no "no death" is cause it was not led by me and the other lead said he has no time to reset even once

Each group had few friends in it, and rest were random people from finder. Have faith in people

Forget the funny team compositions - for the best and most comfortable/safe experience, make the "3 tanks, 3 healers, 6 DDs". Only people with good builds, of course - one time, I had a fake healer as part of my purple team (he had heals, but zero synergies, even no Orb), and me and my dd buddy had almost no resources whole time, which was not enjoyable experience

Middle team is always 1 red tank, 1 orange dd, 1 purple dd. It can be done as 1 tank and 1 dd (ask me how I know

), but unnecessary risky for no death.

From 4 runs where I was lead, one run was not even planned as "no death", one friend simply asked me to experience this trial when people don't have inadequate builds. And when he and few other people in group saw how nice this trial can be when each person in group has actual build and is decent player, they started to demand me to do resets on death - it was beautiful and unexpected

And in each of my 4 groups there were few people who never even finished this trial before.

Reason for a group to not go for a "no death" in Opulent Ordeal:
- there are people with weak builds
- someone just can't perform any mechanics
- lead has very little time to play, so if an accident happens, he doesn't want to restart the run
- all 12 people have this achievement already, so they just want to trade their loot and don't care if something happens during the run

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Bv59MxyHPQ&t=1s

Some of us have terrible internet cos we live far from eso servers and also some of us have older computers.

Normally staying in the middle as DD is the easiest role, especially if you lead and need to type the portal sequence... But the non-stop relic mechanics can be big trouble with these conditions, so being portal dd in orange team is easiest task in such case - the path is not complicated and has no environmental dangers, you just follow your team, and tank makes sure adds are taunted and Daedroth is faced away from you, while healer makes sure you are healed and never end up in dangerous situation.
Last boss for orange team has nasty mechanic when he targets one person with large red circle... But if healer always has heals-over-time (can even ask healers/tanks to provide shields in each team, it would be very safe strategy) and rest of your team just moves away from you when you have that red circle on you, it won't be a problem. For the Red boss "cocoon trap" mechanic just have the "Slippery" red CP slotted, it will automatically break you free of that before one-shot (in case of unreliable lag moments).

My friend who has an old computer was in one of "no death" runs, he was going in portal as orange team dd, and I didn't see any problem with his performance in our group.

Vulkunne · May 26

Making demands for 'no death' and that people 'stay alive' on Opulent is just cRaZy tAlK. It's pure delicious insanity as they say and you'll go insane trying to enforce this.

It's as I said, yes there's nice things, yes, it's nice to have them. At one point in time the 'undying song' achievement was completely and totally unobtainable for me. Yet, I have it now and interestingly enough it was easier to obtain that and for all intense purpose completely impossible, totally out of reach to even score a clear on Opulent. Wanting No Death and then expecting this to appear out of the thin air is just delusional thinking. Especially once you sober up and realize there's too many other things need doing rather than burn everything over something out of your reach and virtually everyone else's.

And then shouting people down for not able to fill such a demanding order for something you 'want'. It's a sickness.

katanagirl1 · May 26

The first NM trial I joined ended up being a no death run. I either didn’t see it or clicked on the wrong listing. Once I realized it I offered to leave the group because I was afraid I would ruin their run. They graciously let me stay. I had plenty of practice up to that point and was on the orange team. This was a score pushing trifecta team and their damage and healing was top notch, they made it easy.

Orbital78 · May 27

I don't really consider night market "dungeons and trials" equal to current trials. It is way easier and just mechs. I have done the three runs with pugs, but wouldn't try no death with randoms. For a coordinated group it shouldn't be too hard. The hardest part is getting everyone relic and keyed.

Vulkunne · May 27

katanagirl1 wrote: »

The first NM trial I joined ended up being a no death run. I either didn’t see it or clicked on the wrong listing. Once I realized it I offered to leave the group because I was afraid I would ruin their run. They graciously let me stay. I had plenty of practice up to that point and was on the orange team. This was a score pushing trifecta team and their damage and healing was top notch, they made it easy.

I must have ran over 10 times with others I know did at least 13, last I checked and no clear. Sometimes you're blessed with these things but none of us were. In fact I remember one run they dropped the orange team like 5 times

and by the time it was over everyone was so tired, including me, that it just wasn't possible. I was neutral tank although my first run was on red team and couldn't find the grapples, to say the 'better people' of the group were less than forgiving is an understatement. I still run into them in IC once in a while, gotta watch out you know?

I'm glad everyone is getting lucky with this. But some of us aren't. I just don't have the time or nerves left to do another 10 runs. I also don't have access to the super talented 'friends' who can make this happen for me. No one knows me unless they either a) They want something b) Want to blame me for something.

Otherwise, all I have is what I got. And it'll never be good enough for some people. For some, it's never enough.

katanagirl1 · May 27

Vulkunne wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

The first NM trial I joined ended up being a no death run. I either didn’t see it or clicked on the wrong listing. Once I realized it I offered to leave the group because I was afraid I would ruin their run. They graciously let me stay. I had plenty of practice up to that point and was on the orange team. This was a score pushing trifecta team and their damage and healing was top notch, they made it easy.

I must have ran over 10 times with others I know did at least 13, last I checked and no clear. Sometimes you're blessed with these things but none of us were. In fact I remember one run they dropped the orange team like 5 times and by the time it was over everyone was so tired, including me, that it just wasn't possible. I was neutral tank although my first run was on red team and couldn't find the grapples, to say the 'better people' of the group were less than forgiving is an understatement. I still run into them in IC once in a while, gotta watch out you know?

I'm glad everyone is getting lucky with this. But some of us aren't. I just don't have the time or nerves left to do another 10 runs. I also don't have access to the super talented 'friends' who can make this happen for me. No one knows me unless they either a) They want something b) Want to blame me for something.

Otherwise, all I have is what I got. And it'll never be good enough for some people. For some, it's never enough.

Oh no, I don’t have friends to help and my luck usually isn’t that good except for that one time. I spent 6 hours in the NM trial with more casual teams where my pure class arcanist melted mobs compared to them. I’ve done group finder for both sets of group dungeons and trials because the 150k dps in my trial team who were supposed to run with the rest of us broke off on their own, so it was a painful week and a half of pugging. The trifecta team damage was at least 10 times more than the casual groups maybe more, that is why I say the NM trial is not for casuals even though it is mostly mechanics at the first. They did things like pull all the elites into the center to burn at once rather than making everyone run to the corners to fight each one individually. The time I spent with the casual groups was good practice for the completed runs though, I knew how to do both red and orange teams by then, but it was grueling. This showed me the enormously huge gap between the types of players in this game up close and personal. Where I had to go through 2-3 skill rotations for the add waves at the beginning with the casual groups, I could barely cast any skills before everything was dead in the trifecta group.

Vulkunne · May 28

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

The first NM trial I joined ended up being a no death run. I either didn’t see it or clicked on the wrong listing. Once I realized it I offered to leave the group because I was afraid I would ruin their run. They graciously let me stay. I had plenty of practice up to that point and was on the orange team. This was a score pushing trifecta team and their damage and healing was top notch, they made it easy.

I must have ran over 10 times with others I know did at least 13, last I checked and no clear. Sometimes you're blessed with these things but none of us were. In fact I remember one run they dropped the orange team like 5 times and by the time it was over everyone was so tired, including me, that it just wasn't possible. I was neutral tank although my first run was on red team and couldn't find the grapples, to say the 'better people' of the group were less than forgiving is an understatement. I still run into them in IC once in a while, gotta watch out you know?

I'm glad everyone is getting lucky with this. But some of us aren't. I just don't have the time or nerves left to do another 10 runs. I also don't have access to the super talented 'friends' who can make this happen for me. No one knows me unless they either a) They want something b) Want to blame me for something.

Otherwise, all I have is what I got. And it'll never be good enough for some people. For some, it's never enough.

Oh no, I don’t have friends to help and my luck usually isn’t that good except for that one time. I spent 6 hours in the NM trial with more casual teams where my pure class arcanist melted mobs compared to them. I’ve done group finder for both sets of group dungeons and trials because the 150k dps in my trial team who were supposed to run with the rest of us broke off on their own, so it was a painful week and a half of pugging. The trifecta team damage was at least 10 times more than the casual groups maybe more, that is why I say the NM trial is not for casuals even though it is mostly mechanics at the first. They did things like pull all the elites into the center to burn at once rather than making everyone run to the corners to fight each one individually. The time I spent with the casual groups was good practice for the completed runs though, I knew how to do both red and orange teams by then, but it was grueling. This showed me the enormously huge gap between the types of players in this game up close and personal. Where I had to go through 2-3 skill rotations for the add waves at the beginning with the casual groups, I could barely cast any skills before everything was dead in the trifecta group.

"It was a painful week you say..." isn't that an understatement huh?

Who knew we'd be modern-day Nostradamus prophets. Congratulations on your Victory. Today Victory is yours. Long Live the Empire.

Soarora · May 28

Vulkunne wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

The first NM trial I joined ended up being a no death run. I either didn’t see it or clicked on the wrong listing. Once I realized it I offered to leave the group because I was afraid I would ruin their run. They graciously let me stay. I had plenty of practice up to that point and was on the orange team. This was a score pushing trifecta team and their damage and healing was top notch, they made it easy.

I also don't have access to the super talented 'friends' who can make this happen for me. No one knows me unless they either a) They want something b) Want to blame me for something.

You could join guilds until you find an open run. Open first come, first serve rosters do not require you to know anyone. Actually, my first pathfinder was with people way above my skill level because the roster was open. My second was a group I ran, including people I hadn’t met before or really talked to.

People probably do know you, if you interact with the community. I, personally, have no awareness of how other people view me except by what people tell me. From what I’ve been told, I’m more known than I think I am (I don’t know to what extent since I don’t realize I’m known). Could potentially be the same or similar for you?

Vulkunne · May 28

Soarora wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

The first NM trial I joined ended up being a no death run. I either didn’t see it or clicked on the wrong listing. Once I realized it I offered to leave the group because I was afraid I would ruin their run. They graciously let me stay. I had plenty of practice up to that point and was on the orange team. This was a score pushing trifecta team and their damage and healing was top notch, they made it easy.

I also don't have access to the super talented 'friends' who can make this happen for me. No one knows me unless they either a) They want something b) Want to blame me for something.

You could join guilds until you find an open run. Open first come, first serve rosters do not require you to know anyone. Actually, my first pathfinder was with people way above my skill level because the roster was open. My second was a group I ran, including people I hadn’t met before or really talked to.

People probably do know you, if you interact with the community. I, personally, have no awareness of how other people view me except by what people tell me. From what I’ve been told, I’m more known than I think I am (I don’t know to what extent since I don’t realize I’m known). Could potentially be the same or similar for you?

*Shrugs*

The older I get, (well not old-old but anyways) the more it becomes abundantly clear to me that some things are my responsibility and there is no substitute for not taking care of the things that are mine. However, it is also painfully clear that I can neither speak for nor make decisions regarding other people, especially if that attention is neither invited or warranted.

Ergo, I accept the things I don't like yet that does not mean I have to agree with them. It would betray what I know to be right. And that sentiment only pushes one further away and yet, the truth for some, uhhh is so remote it requires postage stamps to ever see the light of day. It is so easy to see this in how they treat others. So, I can keep with what I know to be right, or I can betray that to be closer to others with more comfortable accommodation yet also being further away from what is real. And generally speaking, this is a one direction, one-way trip that I guess I am tired of making, especially for those with such short tempers and everything so one-sided that almost completely favors them and their interests first.

To the point, from katana's summary of events from the Trial, it seems that group was willing to work with. This is the trick, the magic 'switch' if you will. In katana's instance, they flipped the switch. But it doesn't happen often and it's been my experience it takes more than one can deliver to get that switch 'flipped', especially when politics, perceptions, friends and favoritism creeps in. It's never been a random thing, it's not an easy thing and again, given my experiences, many would rather fight till hell freezes over than readily flip. But then they will flip for others but not for me. This is the crux of the matter, it is the sound of the other shoe, the one they said doesn't fit them, yet where they left me from their choices made from malice, it is where I begin in earnest.

This is my choice and one that must be made yet never precluded reaching out to anyone for my part.

Soarora · May 28

Vulkunne wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

The first NM trial I joined ended up being a no death run. I either didn’t see it or clicked on the wrong listing. Once I realized it I offered to leave the group because I was afraid I would ruin their run. They graciously let me stay. I had plenty of practice up to that point and was on the orange team. This was a score pushing trifecta team and their damage and healing was top notch, they made it easy.

I also don't have access to the super talented 'friends' who can make this happen for me. No one knows me unless they either a) They want something b) Want to blame me for something.

You could join guilds until you find an open run. Open first come, first serve rosters do not require you to know anyone. Actually, my first pathfinder was with people way above my skill level because the roster was open. My second was a group I ran, including people I hadn’t met before or really talked to.

People probably do know you, if you interact with the community. I, personally, have no awareness of how other people view me except by what people tell me. From what I’ve been told, I’m more known than I think I am (I don’t know to what extent since I don’t realize I’m known). Could potentially be the same or similar for you?

This is my choice and one that must be made yet never precluded reaching out to anyone for my part.

(Cut everything else because otherwise this would be a very long message).

I see, so, if I’m interpreting this correctly, you have become jaded from bad experiences where people have sought a quick clear with no tolerance for struggle? It does not mean that kindness is not acquirable (though I don’t mean to imply invalidation of your feelings, you don’t need to change your mind, I just ramble). I get a sense (I may be wrong, take with some salt) that there are two general groups of group finder and of guilds:

For group finder, there are the leads who do not know anything. The group may be chill, but skill is very low and clearing isn’t an inevitability. There are also the leads who do know things but they expect group finder to be low skill, and thus frustrated off the bat, expecting things to go poorly yet wanting them to go quickly and smoothly, thus low tolerance for failure.

For guilds, there are leads who want a quick clear, expecting people to know what they’re doing, either because the lead needs the clear themselves or because they don’t want to spend a lot of time on helping other people. This is valid, not everyone has tolerance for long progs but may still want to help people (personally, I’m kind of between this and the next, in which I don’t mind progs but I expect people to learn quickly). There are also leads, though, who run training runs and are patient. It’s not incredibly rare on PC/NA, but I don’t believe such runs would be commonplace in group finder nor do I know the prevalence of such runs on other servers.