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U50 Feedback Thread for Class Mastery
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Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭At that point, why not just use Onslaught to deal with people that stack extreme amounts of armor and invest everything into other offensive stats so that you still deal decent pressure vs people with regular armor (25k-30k) and absolutely nuke squishier ones?
Indeed. This is why I say your build is absolutely well put together and logical. I will try it more later also.
As for those high resistance builds, is that truly so? People do this? I wonder how even, and how they don't lose all of their damage doing so. I know that Decimus' Sorc will have 40k+ resistances next patch, but I don't see how anyone competent would crumble before what little offense is left.Auri-El is my lord,
Trinimac my ward,
and Magnus my mind.0 -
VinnyGambini✭✭✭✭VinnyGambini wrote: »VinnyGambini wrote: »
Look guys, thx for feedback, but I think you missed a point. My post wasn't about getting exact values, it was about comparing power level, ans pointing overpowered and underpowered passives. Differences are big, no matter how you calculate.
This needs to be evaluated by ZOS.
No, I didn't miss a point. I think you're the one instead lol. If you have read my previous posts in this thread as well as several others, you would know that I have been advocating for adjustments to Conservation of Energy. I am fine with you comparing power levels between different class masteries because it's necessary for context, but when you say something like this:VinnyGambini wrote: »Summary, sorcerer passives makes sorecerers 2x stronger in PvP. Halving this passives would make it 50% pvp effectiveness increase, making it perfectly balanced.
Then unfortunately I have to disagree with you on that. Most Sorc builds will gain between 15-20% WD/SD from Font of Power and restore between ~3000-4600 HP (before Battle Spirit) from Blood Magic, ~500-800 for main resource, and ~350-550 for off resource from Conservation of Energy. If you halve these values, then Sorc would only get ~7.5-10% WD, ~1500-2300 HP, ~250-400 main resource, and ~175-275 off resource from these class masteries. That's too steep of a nerf and would result in these 2 scenarios:
1) Sorcs cannot compete with DK & Warden who can both deal 6k average DPS, and the upcoming WW spec that can easily deal 8k average DPS
2) Sorcs will now have to slot Dark Deal again, which completely kills build diversity
My suggestion ensures that Sorcs can still compete with meta classes and have the option to explore different build paths, while losing enough HPS that it doesn't feel impossible to kill.
I think what you saying is unfair.
DK and WW are reworked classes, 2.0 classes. Everything else is 1.0 classes. You want 1.0 class (sorc) to compete with 2.0 classes. Then when sorc rework comes live, what is gonna happen? Sorc S++++ tier again?
If you halve these values, then Sorc would only get ~7.5-10% WD, ~1500-2300 HP, ~250-400 main resource, and ~175-275 off resource from these class masteries. - comparing to templar and nb passives, this values look perfectly fine.
The solution of this madness may be to buff other class masteries to sorc / warden level, and then during class reworks, nerfing them, so they won't become OP. This is the only scenario in which it is fair to not cut sorc passives in half.
Do you realize that DK, a reworked class, is also given their own class masteries which are also just as strong, if not better in some cases?
Sorry but no, I don’t think Sorc should be nerfed to the point that it can’t compete with reworked classes. I don’t want to spend another 4 months of playing against nothing but DKs. That crap was boring as hell. You keep making it out like Sorc is currently beating everyone else but from my testings against top players on PTS, Sorc is just about competitive with DK and Warden, and somewhat competitive vs an above average WW (no chance vs a top WW). I would rather have a meta where you can choose from 4 OP classes than a meta where only 1-2 classes are played.
You would rather have meta with 4 OP classes, as long as sorcerer is one of them. Now you proved that you are selfish toxic sorc community member. No point in further discussion with you.0 -
hoangdz✭✭✭✭✭At that point, why not just use Onslaught to deal with people that stack extreme amounts of armor and invest everything into other offensive stats so that you still deal decent pressure vs people with regular armor (25k-30k) and absolutely nuke squishier ones?
Indeed. This is why I say your build is absolutely well put together and logical. I will try it more later also.
As for those high resistance builds, is that truly so? People do this? I wonder how even, and how they don't lose all of their damage doing so. I know that Decimus' Sorc will have 40k+ resistances next patch, but I don't see how anyone competent would crumble before what little offense is left.
Yes, sweaty players stack high resistances, especially for Cyrodiil and BGs. I, React, and Pelican always play with ~35k-40k resistances in Cyrodiil, and we still hilariously kill the majority of the playerbase in that environment lol. The only people we cannot kill are other sweaty players or people who build full tank, but those are outlier cases. While it certainly helps that most people do not min-max correctly, it also has to do with the fact that stacking mitigation right now is extremely easy. Even without armor potions, I can reach upwards of 35k resistances by using 3x Protective jewelries, Fortified red CP, 3 heavy armor pieces, and Bloodspawn, as shown below:
32087 spell resistance and 31361 physical resistance before Bloodspawn, so that's 35818 spell and 35092 physical resistances with Bloodspawn procced. This set procs very frequently when you're outnumbered, so it's not really that difficult to reach these higher values. On classes like Warden and DK, it gets even easier to get higher than 35k armor since they already have built-in passives to increase resistances.
You are right to be concerned about losing damage, but don't worry, as after a significant number of tests, we found that the damage you lose is not that noticeable compared to the mitigation you gain. Subclassing and reworked pure DK has inflated damage so much that you could still 1-shot people even in a full tank build. Cyrodiil can be very chaotic, so it makes more logical sense to build tankier so that you can survive more people than to build more damage and risk dying before you can actually get your combo off.
On PTS, it's hilariously easy to stack high mitigation while still having damage. These are my stats in a real fight:
Sorc class masteries have allowed me to build full damage while keeping my resistances through the use of Armor pots. If I were to compare PTS Sorc to live Sorc, PTS Sorc has about 30-35% more offensive and defensive power. It's not even close lol.Edited by hoangdz on May 16, 2026 6:06PM0 -
hoangdz✭✭✭✭✭VinnyGambini wrote: »VinnyGambini wrote: »VinnyGambini wrote: »
Look guys, thx for feedback, but I think you missed a point. My post wasn't about getting exact values, it was about comparing power level, ans pointing overpowered and underpowered passives. Differences are big, no matter how you calculate.
This needs to be evaluated by ZOS.
No, I didn't miss a point. I think you're the one instead lol. If you have read my previous posts in this thread as well as several others, you would know that I have been advocating for adjustments to Conservation of Energy. I am fine with you comparing power levels between different class masteries because it's necessary for context, but when you say something like this:VinnyGambini wrote: »Summary, sorcerer passives makes sorecerers 2x stronger in PvP. Halving this passives would make it 50% pvp effectiveness increase, making it perfectly balanced.
Then unfortunately I have to disagree with you on that. Most Sorc builds will gain between 15-20% WD/SD from Font of Power and restore between ~3000-4600 HP (before Battle Spirit) from Blood Magic, ~500-800 for main resource, and ~350-550 for off resource from Conservation of Energy. If you halve these values, then Sorc would only get ~7.5-10% WD, ~1500-2300 HP, ~250-400 main resource, and ~175-275 off resource from these class masteries. That's too steep of a nerf and would result in these 2 scenarios:
1) Sorcs cannot compete with DK & Warden who can both deal 6k average DPS, and the upcoming WW spec that can easily deal 8k average DPS
2) Sorcs will now have to slot Dark Deal again, which completely kills build diversity
My suggestion ensures that Sorcs can still compete with meta classes and have the option to explore different build paths, while losing enough HPS that it doesn't feel impossible to kill.
I think what you saying is unfair.
DK and WW are reworked classes, 2.0 classes. Everything else is 1.0 classes. You want 1.0 class (sorc) to compete with 2.0 classes. Then when sorc rework comes live, what is gonna happen? Sorc S++++ tier again?
If you halve these values, then Sorc would only get ~7.5-10% WD, ~1500-2300 HP, ~250-400 main resource, and ~175-275 off resource from these class masteries. - comparing to templar and nb passives, this values look perfectly fine.
The solution of this madness may be to buff other class masteries to sorc / warden level, and then during class reworks, nerfing them, so they won't become OP. This is the only scenario in which it is fair to not cut sorc passives in half.
Do you realize that DK, a reworked class, is also given their own class masteries which are also just as strong, if not better in some cases?
Sorry but no, I don’t think Sorc should be nerfed to the point that it can’t compete with reworked classes. I don’t want to spend another 4 months of playing against nothing but DKs. That crap was boring as hell. You keep making it out like Sorc is currently beating everyone else but from my testings against top players on PTS, Sorc is just about competitive with DK and Warden, and somewhat competitive vs an above average WW (no chance vs a top WW). I would rather have a meta where you can choose from 4 OP classes than a meta where only 1-2 classes are played.
You would rather have meta with 4 OP classes, as long as sorcerer is one of them. Now you proved that you are selfish toxic sorc community member. No point in further discussion with you.
Uh what? I played Sorc during subclassing meta and I didn't have too many problems with it until rework DK rolled out and everyone was a DK. You can say whatever you want lol. People who have argued with me know where I stand.0 -
Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VinnyGambini wrote: »VinnyGambini wrote: »VinnyGambini wrote: »
Look guys, thx for feedback, but I think you missed a point. My post wasn't about getting exact values, it was about comparing power level, ans pointing overpowered and underpowered passives. Differences are big, no matter how you calculate.
This needs to be evaluated by ZOS.
No, I didn't miss a point. I think you're the one instead lol. If you have read my previous posts in this thread as well as several others, you would know that I have been advocating for adjustments to Conservation of Energy. I am fine with you comparing power levels between different class masteries because it's necessary for context, but when you say something like this:VinnyGambini wrote: »Summary, sorcerer passives makes sorecerers 2x stronger in PvP. Halving this passives would make it 50% pvp effectiveness increase, making it perfectly balanced.
Then unfortunately I have to disagree with you on that. Most Sorc builds will gain between 15-20% WD/SD from Font of Power and restore between ~3000-4600 HP (before Battle Spirit) from Blood Magic, ~500-800 for main resource, and ~350-550 for off resource from Conservation of Energy. If you halve these values, then Sorc would only get ~7.5-10% WD, ~1500-2300 HP, ~250-400 main resource, and ~175-275 off resource from these class masteries. That's too steep of a nerf and would result in these 2 scenarios:
1) Sorcs cannot compete with DK & Warden who can both deal 6k average DPS, and the upcoming WW spec that can easily deal 8k average DPS
2) Sorcs will now have to slot Dark Deal again, which completely kills build diversity
My suggestion ensures that Sorcs can still compete with meta classes and have the option to explore different build paths, while losing enough HPS that it doesn't feel impossible to kill.
I think what you saying is unfair.
DK and WW are reworked classes, 2.0 classes. Everything else is 1.0 classes. You want 1.0 class (sorc) to compete with 2.0 classes. Then when sorc rework comes live, what is gonna happen? Sorc S++++ tier again?
If you halve these values, then Sorc would only get ~7.5-10% WD, ~1500-2300 HP, ~250-400 main resource, and ~175-275 off resource from these class masteries. - comparing to templar and nb passives, this values look perfectly fine.
The solution of this madness may be to buff other class masteries to sorc / warden level, and then during class reworks, nerfing them, so they won't become OP. This is the only scenario in which it is fair to not cut sorc passives in half.
Do you realize that DK, a reworked class, is also given their own class masteries which are also just as strong, if not better in some cases?
Sorry but no, I don’t think Sorc should be nerfed to the point that it can’t compete with reworked classes. I don’t want to spend another 4 months of playing against nothing but DKs. That crap was boring as hell. You keep making it out like Sorc is currently beating everyone else but from my testings against top players on PTS, Sorc is just about competitive with DK and Warden, and somewhat competitive vs an above average WW (no chance vs a top WW). I would rather have a meta where you can choose from 4 OP classes than a meta where only 1-2 classes are played.
You would rather have meta with 4 OP classes, as long as sorcerer is one of them. Now you proved that you are selfish toxic sorc community member. No point in further discussion with you.
And that's not very different from you wanting all classes OP as long as Sorc is the only one not strong. Now you proved that you are a member of the Sorc hater community.Auri-El is my lord,
Trinimac my ward,
and Magnus my mind.3 -
NxJoeyD✭✭✭✭
Do i win a prize or something if i show a sorc match where i had high kill counts? This was 4v4 btw not the open map 8v8 where you can find more casuals and sorc has an even easier time streaking to safety compared to the smaller maps of 4s. Just as a side note i would be embrassed to show a game where i had less than 1.5 mil damage on sorc in todays meta but i guess the standards are different for some
Sorc is so unbelieavably higher than necro and templar its unfunny. Sorc in todays meta, without pure classing is not far from dk and will only get stronger with pure classing. I dont know what to tell you guys except adapt your builds and learn to play the class again instead of being stuck with builds that dont work
You want a prize?, go to an arcade... At least in my 4 stack match I showed everyone's score, not just my own; and in my match it was clear that both sides had strong vet players. At least in my 4 v 4 you can compare my performance to those higher end players. For me, looking at someone who nabbed 57 kills looks more like a PUG stomp, not an solid match between high MMR players.
In case you didn't realize it, when I'm in BG's not only do I try to achieve kills but I also play the objective, which should be obvious. I don't treat BG's like personal dueling arenas.
As for total damage numbers, that should be another common sense moment .. Any players total damage is going to be influenced by healing on the opposing side. I can't speak for anyone else but I end up against high MMR players who are subclassed and come with strong healing, or, as is often the case, the other side also has a dedicated healer. Translating damage into kills is where mechanics comes in.
Here's a good example of what I mean. In this match there were only two Sorcs, me a subclass & a pure mag on the other side.
The other side had the pure-sorc running around using mag-based Sorc and world skills (frags, curse, streak, Destro, etc). That Sorc had more damage output than me but couldn't get anywhere near a comparable kill count. We lost this match because it was transform balls and nobody wanted to pick them up, which I can't blame them, I hate those too. .. But you can't just look at a total damage number and say "that's what's effective" because here's proof that it isn't; it's more than that.
One could say that the Sorc on the other team didn't play properly or is a junk build, and some of those things might be true but there's no way that a player with almost 1,000 CP more than me should be so bad at building an effective Sorc.
If the Sorc skills are so good then, even with a poor build, it stands to reason that with that amount of damage that this player had, they should have had more kills. Now, I know why they didn't but I know at least a couple of people will dismiss it so I won't even bother.
It's not all about numbers it's also about mechanics. I've said that a dozen times and the mechanics behind pure-Sorc skills don't measure up; especially not the Mag focused skills.
There are intelligent builds out there but people keep getting hung up on Stam based Sorc builds and trying to say that the class is fine or strong and have no awareness for the disparity between the two concentrations or the fact that 40% to 50% of their bars often have nothing to do with Sorcs as a class.
If a player is concerned that the Sorc Mastery passives are going to make builds that are 40% to 50% world & weapon ability based too strong, that almost demonstrates my point. Nobody thinks that these passives will magically make Sorc skills (and their morphs) like Spines, Tomb, Curse, Flood, Armor, Wrath, etc look appealing. Sorcs have solid utility but their output skills are poor.Edited by NxJoeyD on May 17, 2026 8:37AM5 -
xylena✭✭✭✭✭
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This is 100% correct, these sorts of BGs results prove only that the MMR is broken. I could run up 57 kills on a Hundings/Julianos Necro if my opponents are bad enough.For me, looking at someone who nabbed 57 kills looks more like a PUG stomp, not an solid match between high MMR players.
I'm anticipating the high end meta to be heavy on Sorcs in part because Conservation is the sort of effect that only higher level players are even going to know how to maximize in the first place, nevermind the fact that it specifically rewards high APM gameplay. There will be plenty of strong ranged Sorcs that play like MagSorc but don't build like it's still 2015.
The forum meta really needs an auto reply bot that tells players "sorry please be patient while we rework the entire class system." No wonder they use AI to sort through this crap.PC/NA || Cyro/BGs || solo/smallscale || retired until Dagon brings a new dawn of PvP3 -
Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭BG numbers also do not impress me. Watching streams from various PvPers across various platforms, the majority always look the same: an advanced or experienced player farming dim witted bots without opposition. Most matches also turn into a base camping simulator.
30 kills and more is truly nothing to write home about, and that is sad. It indeed betrays a broken MMR system, or most likely a small number of the same players even joining this. I usually see the same names in the enemy teams on those streams.Auri-El is my lord,
Trinimac my ward,
and Magnus my mind.3 -
NxJoeyD✭✭✭✭
This is 100% correct, these sorts of BGs results prove only that the MMR is broken. I could run up 57 kills on a Hundings/Julianos Necro if my opponents are bad enough.For me, looking at someone who nabbed 57 kills looks more like a PUG stomp, not an solid match between high MMR players.
I'm anticipating the high end meta to be heavy on Sorcs in part because Conservation is the sort of effect that only higher level players are even going to know how to maximize in the first place, nevermind the fact that it specifically rewards high APM gameplay. There will be plenty of strong ranged Sorcs that play like MagSorc but don't build like it's still 2015.
The forum meta really needs an auto reply bot that tells players "sorry please be patient while we rework the entire class system." No wonder they use AI to sort through this crap.
MMR is absolutely broken! This is one reason why when I look at a recap I look at my performance versus the entire field, across both teams. I know MMR will create wholly imbalanced matches and the only ones I really look to reflect on are the ones where at least both sides put up a solid effort and that's where I can look and see whether or not I kept pace with those averages.
I would agree with CoE being something that higher end players are able to maximize. I also think that, in part, that's going to lend heavily to the idea that although we're getting "class" skill refreshes that says nothing about world, or more importantly, weapon skills which will play a big factor here.
Coe is strong but when we say that we see Sorc possibly being on the high end of the meta I think that's going to be driven more by CoE reinforcing non-Sorc skills that have a higher ceiling of potential, more than I think it's going to turn pure-Sorcs that are slotting mostly skills from their own class lines into OP meta machines.
One can have all the sustain in the world from CoE but if they're going up against meta subclassed builds using Flood or Tomb or Wrath or Curse or waiting around for the bonus proc of Frags; then they're likely going to be body meat.
The Devs have created a PvP combat environment that reduces the concept of risk vs reward in combat, and no matter what we do there's inherently going to be that elephant in the room of imbalance possibility, at least until all refreshes are complete.
So for me, when I'm looking at the Sorc passives I'm looking at 3 things mainly: 1) What's the high end potential that current subclassed metas can bring, 2) What does the broad scope of Sorc look like (not just one concentration of Sorc), & 3) How do Sorc class skills compare to similar skills in other classes (either in scaling or mechanic).
When we're seeing Warden+Templar+DK hybrids (this is just one example) hitting high persistent burst + durability; and who's class skills have so many deliverables per cast than anything in the Sorc kit, that's the level of power I'm setting the benchmark at when it comes to the net effect of these Mastery passives.
One of the issues I think we have is that Sorc has such a disparity between the Mag & Stam concentrations plus we've also got the pet vs no pet concentration which really sees the class divided up more than the others and it's more difficult to find Sorc skills that actually synergize as well or carry all the deliverables the current state of PvP demands thanks to sublcassing.Edited by NxJoeyD on May 17, 2026 12:44PM2 -
Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
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One of the issues I think we have is that Sorc has such a disparity between the Mag & Stam concentrations plus we've also got the pet vs no pet concentration which really sees the class divided up more than the others and it's more difficult to find Sorc skills that actually synergize as well or carry all the deliverables the current state of PvP demands thanks to sublcassing.
This is an insightful conclusion to come to. Sorcerer as a class is as filleted as a tuna can. The kit has to accomodate the pet vs. non pet and the mag vs. stam, leaving not much room for either of them.
The summoner playstyle is half baked and underwhelming, the stamina playstyle is tugged on and the magicka playstyle is also drowned with few good options left after the kit has become so split.
I hope the rework can address this. ZoS clearly does not want pet builds deal competitive damage, so I think they should be turned into proper support entities.
The Twilight Matriarch currently is a glorified Breath of Life that requires 2 slots. Can't it become a proper pocket support that healers and tanks can use for their groups? It can have a passive that it sends out some HoTs ever now and then that applies Minor Courage whilst keeping the burst heal intact and thus allowing the Twilight to passively upkeep things like Spell Power Cure for you. The Clannfear could become a proper pocket tank that can actually taunt and debuff and protect.
This way the pets are autonomous without having to dedicate a whole skill line just to make them remotely viable. Condense the power. The same is often mentioned for the sustain being spread across 5 or so passives. Just compress it all back into Dark Deal and make room for interesting talents like most other classes have them. Don't offer 5 mini solutions if 1 big solution suffices. This is true for all classes wherever it might apply.Edited by Dracane on May 17, 2026 1:12PMAuri-El is my lord,
Trinimac my ward,
and Magnus my mind.3 -
Savagejack✭✭✭I like how this forum is a universal thread for class mastery. But it's mostly just sorcs yelling at each other about whether we're broken or not. I really hope other classes get equal attention and not lose the spotlight because of this.1 -
xylena✭✭✭✭✭
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MagSorc that backs up its traditional Curse + Frags combos with ranged dots + Static Reverberation + status effect abuse on Ele Sus and Force Shock = legitimate OW menace. Conservation allows for serious defensive bar compression. Consider using Bound Armaments for buff compression, ranged direct pressure, synergy with multiple different proc effects, and as a stam dump.One of the issues I think we have is that Sorc has such a disparity between the Mag & Stam concentrationsPC/NA || Cyro/BGs || solo/smallscale || retired until Dagon brings a new dawn of PvP1 -
NxJoeyD✭✭✭✭
MagSorc that backs up its traditional Curse + Frags combos with ranged dots + Static Reverberation + status effect abuse on Ele Sus and Force Shock = legitimate OW menace. Conservation allows for serious defensive bar compression. Consider using Bound Armaments for buff compression, ranged direct pressure, synergy with multiple different proc effects, and as a stam dump.One of the issues I think we have is that Sorc has such a disparity between the Mag & Stam concentrations
I can see Static + Signet + Crush & Ele being an option for solid offense but the only part Sorc brings to that is Static. As for Curse + Frags, IMO, for PvP Curse is too easily mitigated and the bonus scale rate of Frags on a pure-mag is too low; especially given that it doesn't synergize with Overload, which, although a small thing would make a big difference. Stams, meanwhile, have a lot of options and IMO are the stronger concentration.2 -
xylena✭✭✭✭✭
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SPS ring rewards you for sitting on max Overload and only dumping to execute. StamSorc gets more pressure from close range tools like Hurricane and Vate Destro, but MagSorc players often underestimate just how strong long range pressure is in OW. However...given that it doesn't synergize with Overload, which, although a small thing would make a big difference. Stams, meanwhile, have a lot of options and IMO are the stronger concentration
...if unchanged the Conservation + BFB interaction will warp the U50 meta around StamSorc.PC/NA || Cyro/BGs || solo/smallscale || retired until Dagon brings a new dawn of PvP0 -
Firstmep✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Savagejack wrote: »I like how this forum is a universal thread for class mastery. But it's mostly just sorcs yelling at each other about whether we're broken or not. I really hope other classes get equal attention and not lose the spotlight because of this.
It's a running joke at this point, they even hijack other class feedback threads to peddle sorc discussions.
Tbh looking at the most recent dev posts, they are at least aware that other classes exist, even if we cant expect any more changes this pts cycle.Edited by Firstmep on May 17, 2026 2:57PM1 -
CatalinaWineMixer2✭✭✭✭The Class Mastery Passives are completely underwhelming. It makes more sense to remove Subclass or start nerfing it to match the Pure Classes. They should be the ones setting the standard. Not the other way around whatsoever. For now, Ill exclude combinations with the mythic. Mythics abuse and ruin so many good things in this game.
To even begin to make these passives fair you're going to have to offer a wider list of them and have 3 for each role, Tank, Healer and Dps. And let the Pure Class have 3 at all times at a minimum. No Pure Class character is going to be able to compete as a dps from a Subclass with 3 skill lines of dps passives. Subclass shouldn't be allowed to bring all of the passives from any Class in the first place. Or Tank or Healer either. The sustain is not comparable on Pure Classes. There need to be buffs that only apply to the original characters, not Subclass. It is not Dragonknights hitting people in PvP, it is Subclass. They are not real Dragonknights.
The same thing needs to happen with the abilities being abused by Subclass. Only a Pure Nightblade should be able to get the maximum damage out of Assassination. Only a Pure Arcanist should be able to get maximum damage out of Fatecarver.
It needs to be considered adding passives or boosts to the regular skill lines to buff Pure Classes. Support and Restoration passives and buffs we can choose that only apply to Pure Class since we are unable to cherry pick our skills like Subclass and are limited to a tiny list list as healers, tanks and dps. Subclass should not have access to Class sets or Class Mastery Passives either. They are NOT classes. Their bonuses should only be for Pure Classes. There needs to be a real incentive to stay as Pure Class. In order to achieve it, they have to be above everything else in the game at SOMETHING. For example, the Dragonknight should be the best tank in the game, but only if you are a Pure Dragonknight. That means it needs to be better than any and ALL Subclass combinations!
It just doesn't make sense, I appreciate trying to correct the disaster of our characters but this is like trying to do it backwards after the fact. Why wont you guys just admit you made a mistake and remove this broken Subclassing system. Or actually institute some real drawbacks to it. Before all of this, we had 7 metas. Now everyone has THE same meta.
So much time has passed since our characters have been ruined that I have even considered leaving the game. After 10 years. Its so un fun and everything is so cookie cutter now. The amount of time spent trying to keep this broken Subclass system afloat is costing you players. And when older veteran players like us leave, our Guilds come with us. I would really rather see a return to Pure Class characters. It is rules based, it can be balanced faster and easier and it will allow the institution of new Classes in a fair and sane manner. Every time a new Class comes out, we now have to worry because of Subclass. And they aren't going to be playing the new class, they will be deconstructing it to abuse its passives with Subclass.
Mythics are a whole different ballgame but the game has survived with them prior to Subclass. Has anyone given any consideration to mythics that on work for the Pure Classes? These types of Class specific boosts are the only way. The Pure Classes have to have something to add that nothing else in the game can. And to groups too. I have played these new passives on the pts and I think the only time I've been more disappointed was the day I logged into the game at U46 when my Warden was completely ruined. Its been a year. These current passives are not enough to restore my character to any leaderboards I was on or any end game content. Or even good performance in a hard mode dungeon for that matter. Before I was a Warden, I was a DK. I stopped being a DK because it kept getting nerfed at almost every patch and so did every fire set in the game. Now its happened to my Warden. The DK rework is proof that the refreshes are not the answer. All of the good things about it are being exploited by Subclass.
@Zos I am urging you to conduct an in house test of the Ossein Cage, Black Gem Foundry, Lep Seclusa, Kynes Aegis and Blackrose Prison in both Hard Mode and regular vet running with nothing but the Pure Class characters with and without the new mythic. And then run the same content again with Subclass. And its meta. In house, not on the test server. And see how unfair it really is.
I will elaborate more on the passives and other things moving forward but I am extremely disappointed. I dont have a lot of hope for what's headed my way for my beloved Warden. The Pure Class characters are why I bought the game. Its the only way Im ever going to enjoy combat again.Edited by CatalinaWineMixer2 on May 17, 2026 3:43PM2 -
Alchimiste1✭✭✭✭✭
✭Major_Mangle wrote: »Savagejack wrote: »Reading through these debates and use of math has been very insightful. So I want to thank you cuties for all this production effort. Keep it coming.
As insightful as the math is, I find it more entertaining with the mental gymnastics from those trying to depict sorc as a weak class (mag/stam) and that their new class masteries are "underwhelming" (aside from hoangdaz/static and some others who does understand how strong it actually can be).
People can call it whatever they want. People can claim Sorc is strong under the presumption that "what one Stam Sorc does" is reflective of all of the Sorc class .. Or we could continue to say that the passives are going to be OP by making unrealistic assumptions that every Sorc is going to show up in PvP with 40k to 50k health .. Or we could even keep doing CMX summaries where we "compare" setups and buff one test whilst sandbagging the other and then claim proof of point .. Or rely on dummy parses or contrived duals, neither of which reflect the majority of PvP. ... We could do a lot of things on these threads.
Some people get Sorc to work, and that's great for them and I don't take anything away from them for it. But that's not a real or broad picture of Sorc as a class in the current state of PvP.
Personally, I've spent a lot of time with this one class in particular and it's why you only see me on here bringing feedback about that class. I'm leaving the other classes up to those who run and main them every day to give their experience and their feedback in the hopes of getting their passives dialed in.
Whether anyone things I'm off target in thinking pure-Sorc is weak in the context of the subclassed meta, hey, everyone's entitled to their opinion but good luck finding any solid data where pure-sorcs in U49 are leading anything in PvP. And while PvE and PvP are very much different, even if we look at one of the top tier PvE instances to get an idea of a spread of how Sorc perform in the current release we see Mag Sorc not just at the bottom but significantly off-pace. If we can all agree that pure-Sorc skills have a greater use potential in PvE then this chart doesn't indicate very well for pure-sorc in PvP either.
As for me. Some people think I have no idea how to build my class or theory craft or that I have no idea what PvP looks like. I mean, that's fine, anyone can think what they want but at the end of the day I can confidently say that at least my observations are supported with results at being effective. This is in no way saying that my build is better or top tier, in fact, I've repeated that I'm nowhere near the meta. I could absolutely be stronger if I were to switch to Stam Sorc, but for a Mag base, I'm heavily subclassed and I wouldn't have near the power and consistency that I do now if I were to be pure-mag Sorc.
There's way better builds out there than me but one can't say that I haven't put time into PvP.
Yeah I’m going go be honest, none of those bg screenshots are impressive or hold any meaning.
Sorc class masteries on pts are very good. Sorc probably has the highest skill cap of any pure class so I won’t be surprised if a lot of players still feel it’s weak.4 -
xylena✭✭✭✭✭
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Nothing special but they do indicate that the Sorc player is competent, which I think was his intent. They also mean that the MMR is broken, which apparnetly can't be said enough.Alchimiste1 wrote: »Yeah I’m going go be honest, none of those bg screenshots are impressive or hold any meaning.
Sorc class masteries on pts are very good. Sorc probably has the highest skill cap of any pure class so I won’t be surprised if a lot of players still feel it’s weak.
Definitely going to see Sorc over-represented amongst sweaty players, definitely going to see casual Sorcs complain it's "weak" because they don't build or pilot to its potential.PC/NA || Cyro/BGs || solo/smallscale || retired until Dagon brings a new dawn of PvP1 -
hoangdz✭✭✭✭✭
MagSorc that backs up its traditional Curse + Frags combos with ranged dots + Static Reverberation + status effect abuse on Ele Sus and Force Shock = legitimate OW menace. Conservation allows for serious defensive bar compression. Consider using Bound Armaments for buff compression, ranged direct pressure, synergy with multiple different proc effects, and as a stam dump.One of the issues I think we have is that Sorc has such a disparity between the Mag & Stam concentrations
I can see Static + Signet + Crush & Ele being an option for solid offense but the only part Sorc brings to that is Static. As for Curse + Frags, IMO, for PvP Curse is too easily mitigated and the bonus scale rate of Frags on a pure-mag is too low; especially given that it doesn't synergize with Overload, which, although a small thing would make a big difference. Stams, meanwhile, have a lot of options and IMO are the stronger concentration.
I hope you know that stamsorcs also uses Curse and Frag, so those "drawbacks" you mentioned also apply to them as well1 -
Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
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Definitely going to see Sorc over-represented amongst sweaty players, definitely going to see casual Sorcs complain it's "weak" because they don't build or pilot to its potential.
You lot make it sound more scientific and complex than it is.
Anyone can work out that having a passive that offers sustain lends itself to dropping sustain elsewhere in favor of damage or tankiness.Auri-El is my lord,
Trinimac my ward,
and Magnus my mind.0 -
xylena✭✭✭✭✭
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Lots of players do the math but still double down on their pet build/theme/playstyle, so it's up to the devs to make those popular archetypes balanced and competitive, which they are doing with the class reworks, but of course gamers have a hard time with patience.Anyone can work out
Not me, I'll wait. I've already waited a long time for pressure StamSorc to be good again, I can wait longer for them to actually balance the meta and the other classes. In the meantime if you wanna play a ranged destro caster Sorc in U50, do so because it's good with the new tools.PC/NA || Cyro/BGs || solo/smallscale || retired until Dagon brings a new dawn of PvP1 -
NxJoeyD✭✭✭✭
MagSorc that backs up its traditional Curse + Frags combos with ranged dots + Static Reverberation + status effect abuse on Ele Sus and Force Shock = legitimate OW menace. Conservation allows for serious defensive bar compression. Consider using Bound Armaments for buff compression, ranged direct pressure, synergy with multiple different proc effects, and as a stam dump.One of the issues I think we have is that Sorc has such a disparity between the Mag & Stam concentrations
I can see Static + Signet + Crush & Ele being an option for solid offense but the only part Sorc brings to that is Static. As for Curse + Frags, IMO, for PvP Curse is too easily mitigated and the bonus scale rate of Frags on a pure-mag is too low; especially given that it doesn't synergize with Overload, which, although a small thing would make a big difference. Stams, meanwhile, have a lot of options and IMO are the stronger concentration.
I hope you know that stamsorcs also uses Curse and Frag, so those "drawbacks" you mentioned also apply to them as well
Yes, I know that; they apply to anyone who choses to slot those skills.
But in the case of Stam Sorc those builds can much better synergize with skills in Dual and Two Hand and the passives in either skill line. Plus, the prospect of trading Mag for Stam on a Stam based build for sustain is a much better scenario in PvP than the reverse. And generally the Stam morphs of Sorc skills perform better or deliver stats or mechs that the Mag morphs don’t.
Anyone who slots those Sorc skills will have the drawbacks but at least Stam builds can better supplement with very useful alternatives that Mag Sorcs can't.Edited by NxJoeyD on May 17, 2026 7:37PM0 -
Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
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Lots of players do the math but still double down on their pet build/theme/playstyle, so it's up to the devs to make those popular archetypes balanced and competitive, which they are doing with the class reworks, but of course gamers have a hard time with patience.Anyone can work out
Not me, I'll wait. I've already waited a long time for pressure StamSorc to be good again, I can wait longer for them to actually balance the meta and the other classes. In the meantime if you wanna play a ranged destro caster Sorc in U50, do so because it's good with the new tools.
I have always played a ranged destro caster, so that is what I will continue doing. I never bowed to the StamSorc meta or whatever else people want to call that which is Sorc nowadays.Auri-El is my lord,
Trinimac my ward,
and Magnus my mind.0 -
Firstmep✭✭✭✭✭
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Lots of players do the math but still double down on their pet build/theme/playstyle, so it's up to the devs to make those popular archetypes balanced and competitive, which they are doing with the class reworks, but of course gamers have a hard time with patience.Anyone can work out
Not me, I'll wait. I've already waited a long time for pressure StamSorc to be good again, I can wait longer for them to actually balance the meta and the other classes. In the meantime if you wanna play a ranged destro caster Sorc in U50, do so because it's good with the new tools.
I have always played a ranged destro caster, so that is what I will continue doing. I never bowed to the StamSorc meta or whatever else people want to call that which is Sorc nowadays.
Frankly you can equip Shattered Meta Signet on any class destro front and do good damage.0 -
Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
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Lots of players do the math but still double down on their pet build/theme/playstyle, so it's up to the devs to make those popular archetypes balanced and competitive, which they are doing with the class reworks, but of course gamers have a hard time with patience.Anyone can work out
Not me, I'll wait. I've already waited a long time for pressure StamSorc to be good again, I can wait longer for them to actually balance the meta and the other classes. In the meantime if you wanna play a ranged destro caster Sorc in U50, do so because it's good with the new tools.
I have always played a ranged destro caster, so that is what I will continue doing. I never bowed to the StamSorc meta or whatever else people want to call that which is Sorc nowadays.
Frankly you can equip Shattered Meta Signet on any class destro front and do good damage.
That is true. I personally decided not to use it. I compared it to the other mythicals of voice through testing on my personal PvP dummy and judged that it does not outperform other options for a bursty playstyle. Maybe it was not working properly on the PTS. I just left it in my chest on Live so far.Auri-El is my lord,
Trinimac my ward,
and Magnus my mind.0