hoangdz wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Look guys, thx for feedback, but I think you missed a point. My post wasn't about getting exact values, it was about comparing power level, ans pointing overpowered and underpowered passives. Differences are big, no matter how you calculate.

This needs to be evaluated by ZOS.

No, I didn't miss a point. I think you're the one instead lol. If you have read my previous posts in this thread as well as several others, you would know that I have been advocating for adjustments to Conservation of Energy. I am fine with you comparing power levels between different class masteries because it's necessary for context, but when you say something like this:

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Summary, sorcerer passives makes sorecerers 2x stronger in PvP. Halving this passives would make it 50% pvp effectiveness increase, making it perfectly balanced.

Then unfortunately I have to disagree with you on that. Most Sorc builds will gain between 15-20% WD/SD from Font of Power and restore between ~3000-4600 HP (before Battle Spirit) from Blood Magic, ~500-800 for main resource, and ~350-550 for off resource from Conservation of Energy. If you halve these values, then Sorc would only get ~7.5-10% WD, ~1500-2300 HP, ~250-400 main resource, and ~175-275 off resource from these class masteries. That's too steep of a nerf and would result in these 2 scenarios:

1) Sorcs cannot compete with DK & Warden who can both deal 6k average DPS, and the upcoming WW spec that can easily deal 8k average DPS

2) Sorcs will now have to slot Dark Deal again, which completely kills build diversity

My suggestion ensures that Sorcs can still compete with meta classes and have the option to explore different build paths, while losing enough HPS that it doesn't feel impossible to kill.

I think what you saying is unfair.

DK and WW are reworked classes, 2.0 classes. Everything else is 1.0 classes. You want 1.0 class (sorc) to compete with 2.0 classes. Then when sorc rework comes live, what is gonna happen? Sorc S++++ tier again?

If you halve these values, then Sorc would only get ~7.5-10% WD, ~1500-2300 HP, ~250-400 main resource, and ~175-275 off resource from these class masteries. - comparing to templar and nb passives, this values look perfectly fine.

The solution of this madness may be to buff other class masteries to sorc / warden level, and then during class reworks, nerfing them, so they won't become OP. This is the only scenario in which it is fair to not cut sorc passives in half.

Do you realize that DK, a reworked class, is also given their own class masteries which are also just as strong, if not better in some cases?

Sorry but no, I don’t think Sorc should be nerfed to the point that it can’t compete with reworked classes. I don’t want to spend another 4 months of playing against nothing but DKs. That crap was boring as hell. You keep making it out like Sorc is currently beating everyone else but from my testings against top players on PTS, Sorc is just about competitive with DK and Warden, and somewhat competitive vs an above average WW (no chance vs a top WW). I would rather have a meta where you can choose from 4 OP classes than a meta where only 1-2 classes are played.

You would rather have meta with 4 OP classes, as long as sorcerer is one of them. Now you proved that you are selfish toxic sorc community member. No point in further discussion with you.

VinnyGambini wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Look guys, thx for feedback, but I think you missed a point. My post wasn't about getting exact values, it was about comparing power level, ans pointing overpowered and underpowered passives. Differences are big, no matter how you calculate.

This needs to be evaluated by ZOS.

No, I didn't miss a point. I think you're the one instead lol. If you have read my previous posts in this thread as well as several others, you would know that I have been advocating for adjustments to Conservation of Energy. I am fine with you comparing power levels between different class masteries because it's necessary for context, but when you say something like this:

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Summary, sorcerer passives makes sorecerers 2x stronger in PvP. Halving this passives would make it 50% pvp effectiveness increase, making it perfectly balanced.

Then unfortunately I have to disagree with you on that. Most Sorc builds will gain between 15-20% WD/SD from Font of Power and restore between ~3000-4600 HP (before Battle Spirit) from Blood Magic, ~500-800 for main resource, and ~350-550 for off resource from Conservation of Energy. If you halve these values, then Sorc would only get ~7.5-10% WD, ~1500-2300 HP, ~250-400 main resource, and ~175-275 off resource from these class masteries. That's too steep of a nerf and would result in these 2 scenarios:

1) Sorcs cannot compete with DK & Warden who can both deal 6k average DPS, and the upcoming WW spec that can easily deal 8k average DPS

2) Sorcs will now have to slot Dark Deal again, which completely kills build diversity

My suggestion ensures that Sorcs can still compete with meta classes and have the option to explore different build paths, while losing enough HPS that it doesn't feel impossible to kill.

I think what you saying is unfair.

DK and WW are reworked classes, 2.0 classes. Everything else is 1.0 classes. You want 1.0 class (sorc) to compete with 2.0 classes. Then when sorc rework comes live, what is gonna happen? Sorc S++++ tier again?

If you halve these values, then Sorc would only get ~7.5-10% WD, ~1500-2300 HP, ~250-400 main resource, and ~175-275 off resource from these class masteries. - comparing to templar and nb passives, this values look perfectly fine.

The solution of this madness may be to buff other class masteries to sorc / warden level, and then during class reworks, nerfing them, so they won't become OP. This is the only scenario in which it is fair to not cut sorc passives in half.

Do you realize that DK, a reworked class, is also given their own class masteries which are also just as strong, if not better in some cases?

Sorry but no, I don’t think Sorc should be nerfed to the point that it can’t compete with reworked classes. I don’t want to spend another 4 months of playing against nothing but DKs. That crap was boring as hell. You keep making it out like Sorc is currently beating everyone else but from my testings against top players on PTS, Sorc is just about competitive with DK and Warden, and somewhat competitive vs an above average WW (no chance vs a top WW). I would rather have a meta where you can choose from 4 OP classes than a meta where only 1-2 classes are played.

You would rather have meta with 4 OP classes, as long as sorcerer is one of them. Now you proved that you are selfish toxic sorc community member. No point in further discussion with you.

Uh what? I played Sorc during subclassing meta and I didn't have too many problems with it until rework DK rolled out and everyone was a DK. You can say whatever you want lol. People who have argued with me know where I stand.

acanca wrote: »

Do i win a prize or something if i show a sorc match where i had high kill counts? This was 4v4 btw not the open map 8v8 where you can find more casuals and sorc has an even easier time streaking to safety compared to the smaller maps of 4s. Just as a side note i would be embrassed to show a game where i had less than 1.5 mil damage on sorc in todays meta but i guess the standards are different for some

Sorc is so unbelieavably higher than necro and templar its unfunny. Sorc in todays meta, without pure classing is not far from dk and will only get stronger with pure classing. I dont know what to tell you guys except adapt your builds and learn to play the class again instead of being stuck with builds that dont work

You want a prize?, go to an arcade... At least in my 4 stack match I showed everyone's score, not just my own; and in my match it was clear that both sides had strong vet players. At least in my 4 v 4 you can compare my performance to those higher end players. For me, looking at someone who nabbed 57 kills looks more like a PUG stomp, not an solid match between high MMR players.

In case you didn't realize it, when I'm in BG's not only do I try to achieve kills but I also play the objective, which should be obvious. I don't treat BG's like personal dueling arenas.

As for total damage numbers, that should be another common sense moment .. Any players total damage is going to be influenced by healing on the opposing side. I can't speak for anyone else but I end up against high MMR players who are subclassed and come with strong healing, or, as is often the case, the other side also has a dedicated healer. Translating damage into kills is where mechanics comes in.

Here's a good example of what I mean. In this match there were only two Sorcs, me a subclass & a pure mag on the other side.

The other side had the pure-sorc running around using mag-based Sorc and world skills (frags, curse, streak, Destro, etc). That Sorc had more damage output than me but couldn't get anywhere near a comparable kill count. We lost this match because it was transform balls and nobody wanted to pick them up, which I can't blame them, I hate those too. .. But you can't just look at a total damage number and say "that's what's effective" because here's proof that it isn't; it's more than that.

One could say that the Sorc on the other team didn't play properly or is a junk build, and some of those things might be true but there's no way that a player with almost 1,000 CP more than me should be so bad at building an effective Sorc.

If the Sorc skills are so good then, even with a poor build, it stands to reason that with that amount of damage that this player had, they should have had more kills. Now, I know why they didn't but I know at least a couple of people will dismiss it so I won't even bother.


It's not all about numbers it's also about mechanics. I've said that a dozen times and the mechanics behind pure-Sorc skills don't measure up; especially not the Mag focused skills.

There are intelligent builds out there but people keep getting hung up on Stam based Sorc builds and trying to say that the class is fine or strong and have no awareness for the disparity between the two concentrations or the fact that 40% to 50% of their bars often have nothing to do with Sorcs as a class.

If a player is concerned that the Sorc Mastery passives are going to make builds that are 40% to 50% world & weapon ability based too strong, that almost demonstrates my point. Nobody thinks that these passives will magically make Sorc skills (and their morphs) like Spines, Tomb, Curse, Flood, Armor, Wrath, etc look appealing. Sorcs have solid utility but their output skills are poor.

BG numbers also do not impress me. Watching streams from various PvPers across various platforms, the majority always look the same: an advanced or experienced player farming dim witted bots without opposition. Most matches also turn into a base camping simulator.

30 kills and more is truly nothing to write home about, and that is sad. It indeed betrays a broken MMR system, or most likely a small number of the same players even joining this. I usually see the same names in the enemy teams on those streams.

NxJoeyD wrote: »

One of the issues I think we have is that Sorc has such a disparity between the Mag & Stam concentrations plus we've also got the pet vs no pet concentration which really sees the class divided up more than the others and it's more difficult to find Sorc skills that actually synergize as well or carry all the deliverables the current state of PvP demands thanks to sublcassing.

This is an insightful conclusion to come to. Sorcerer as a class is as filleted as a tuna can. The kit has to accomodate the pet vs. non pet and the mag vs. stam, leaving not much room for either of them.
The summoner playstyle is half baked and underwhelming, the stamina playstyle is tugged on and the magicka playstyle is also drowned with few good options left after the kit has become so split.

I hope the rework can address this. ZoS clearly does not want pet builds deal competitive damage, so I think they should be turned into proper support entities.

The Twilight Matriarch currently is a glorified Breath of Life that requires 2 slots. Can't it become a proper pocket support that healers and tanks can use for their groups? It can have a passive that it sends out some HoTs ever now and then that applies Minor Courage whilst keeping the burst heal intact and thus allowing the Twilight to passively upkeep things like Spell Power Cure for you. The Clannfear could become a proper pocket tank that can actually taunt and debuff and protect.

This way the pets are autonomous without having to dedicate a whole skill line just to make them remotely viable. Condense the power. The same is often mentioned for the sustain being spread across 5 or so passives. Just compress it all back into Dark Deal and make room for interesting talents like most other classes have them. Don't offer 5 mini solutions if 1 big solution suffices. This is true for all classes wherever it might apply.

NxJoeyD wrote: »

One of the issues I think we have is that Sorc has such a disparity between the Mag & Stam concentrations

MagSorc that backs up its traditional Curse + Frags combos with ranged dots + Static Reverberation + status effect abuse on Ele Sus and Force Shock = legitimate OW menace. Conservation allows for serious defensive bar compression. Consider using Bound Armaments for buff compression, ranged direct pressure, synergy with multiple different proc effects, and as a stam dump.

NxJoeyD wrote: »

given that it doesn't synergize with Overload, which, although a small thing would make a big difference. Stams, meanwhile, have a lot of options and IMO are the stronger concentration

SPS ring rewards you for sitting on max Overload and only dumping to execute. StamSorc gets more pressure from close range tools like Hurricane and Vate Destro, but MagSorc players often underestimate just how strong long range pressure is in OW. However...

...if unchanged the Conservation + BFB interaction will warp the U50 meta around StamSorc.