U50 Feedback Thread for Class Mastery

Dracane

hoangdz wrote: »

At that point, why not just use Onslaught to deal with people that stack extreme amounts of armor and invest everything into other offensive stats so that you still deal decent pressure vs people with regular armor (25k-30k) and absolutely nuke squishier ones?

Indeed. This is why I say your build is absolutely well put together and logical. I will try it more later also.
As for those high resistance builds, is that truly so? People do this? I wonder how even, and how they don't lose all of their damage doing so. I know that Decimus' Sorc will have 40k+ resistances next patch, but I don't see how anyone competent would crumble before what little offense is left.

VinnyGambini

hoangdz wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Look guys, thx for feedback, but I think you missed a point. My post wasn't about getting exact values, it was about comparing power level, ans pointing overpowered and underpowered passives. Differences are big, no matter how you calculate.

This needs to be evaluated by ZOS.

No, I didn't miss a point. I think you're the one instead lol. If you have read my previous posts in this thread as well as several others, you would know that I have been advocating for adjustments to Conservation of Energy. I am fine with you comparing power levels between different class masteries because it's necessary for context, but when you say something like this:

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Summary, sorcerer passives makes sorecerers 2x stronger in PvP. Halving this passives would make it 50% pvp effectiveness increase, making it perfectly balanced.

Then unfortunately I have to disagree with you on that. Most Sorc builds will gain between 15-20% WD/SD from Font of Power and restore between ~3000-4600 HP (before Battle Spirit) from Blood Magic, ~500-800 for main resource, and ~350-550 for off resource from Conservation of Energy. If you halve these values, then Sorc would only get ~7.5-10% WD, ~1500-2300 HP, ~250-400 main resource, and ~175-275 off resource from these class masteries. That's too steep of a nerf and would result in these 2 scenarios:

1) Sorcs cannot compete with DK & Warden who can both deal 6k average DPS, and the upcoming WW spec that can easily deal 8k average DPS

2) Sorcs will now have to slot Dark Deal again, which completely kills build diversity

My suggestion ensures that Sorcs can still compete with meta classes and have the option to explore different build paths, while losing enough HPS that it doesn't feel impossible to kill.

I think what you saying is unfair.

DK and WW are reworked classes, 2.0 classes. Everything else is 1.0 classes. You want 1.0 class (sorc) to compete with 2.0 classes. Then when sorc rework comes live, what is gonna happen? Sorc S++++ tier again?

If you halve these values, then Sorc would only get ~7.5-10% WD, ~1500-2300 HP, ~250-400 main resource, and ~175-275 off resource from these class masteries. - comparing to templar and nb passives, this values look perfectly fine.

The solution of this madness may be to buff other class masteries to sorc / warden level, and then during class reworks, nerfing them, so they won't become OP. This is the only scenario in which it is fair to not cut sorc passives in half.

Do you realize that DK, a reworked class, is also given their own class masteries which are also just as strong, if not better in some cases?

Sorry but no, I don’t think Sorc should be nerfed to the point that it can’t compete with reworked classes. I don’t want to spend another 4 months of playing against nothing but DKs. That crap was boring as hell. You keep making it out like Sorc is currently beating everyone else but from my testings against top players on PTS, Sorc is just about competitive with DK and Warden, and somewhat competitive vs an above average WW (no chance vs a top WW). I would rather have a meta where you can choose from 4 OP classes than a meta where only 1-2 classes are played.

You would rather have meta with 4 OP classes, as long as sorcerer is one of them. Now you proved that you are selfish toxic sorc community member. No point in further discussion with you.

hoangdz

Dracane wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

At that point, why not just use Onslaught to deal with people that stack extreme amounts of armor and invest everything into other offensive stats so that you still deal decent pressure vs people with regular armor (25k-30k) and absolutely nuke squishier ones?

Indeed. This is why I say your build is absolutely well put together and logical. I will try it more later also.
As for those high resistance builds, is that truly so? People do this? I wonder how even, and how they don't lose all of their damage doing so. I know that Decimus' Sorc will have 40k+ resistances next patch, but I don't see how anyone competent would crumble before what little offense is left.

Yes, sweaty players stack high resistances, especially for Cyrodiil and BGs. I, React, and Pelican always play with ~35k-40k resistances in Cyrodiil, and we still hilariously kill the majority of the playerbase in that environment lol. The only people we cannot kill are other sweaty players or people who build full tank, but those are outlier cases. While it certainly helps that most people do not min-max correctly, it also has to do with the fact that stacking mitigation right now is extremely easy. Even without armor potions, I can reach upwards of 35k resistances by using 3x Protective jewelries, Fortified red CP, 3 heavy armor pieces, and Bloodspawn, as shown below:



32087 spell resistance and 31361 physical resistance before Bloodspawn, so that's 35818 spell and 35092 physical resistances with Bloodspawn procced. This set procs very frequently when you're outnumbered, so it's not really that difficult to reach these higher values. On classes like Warden and DK, it gets even easier to get higher than 35k armor since they already have built-in passives to increase resistances.

You are right to be concerned about losing damage, but don't worry, as after a significant number of tests, we found that the damage you lose is not that noticeable compared to the mitigation you gain. Subclassing and reworked pure DK has inflated damage so much that you could still 1-shot people even in a full tank build. Cyrodiil can be very chaotic, so it makes more logical sense to build tankier so that you can survive more people than to build more damage and risk dying before you can actually get your combo off.

On PTS, it's hilariously easy to stack high mitigation while still having damage. These are my stats in a real fight:





Sorc class masteries have allowed me to build full damage while keeping my resistances through the use of Armor pots. If I were to compare PTS Sorc to live Sorc, PTS Sorc has about 30-35% more offensive and defensive power. It's not even close lol.

hoangdz

VinnyGambini wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Look guys, thx for feedback, but I think you missed a point. My post wasn't about getting exact values, it was about comparing power level, ans pointing overpowered and underpowered passives. Differences are big, no matter how you calculate.

This needs to be evaluated by ZOS.

No, I didn't miss a point. I think you're the one instead lol. If you have read my previous posts in this thread as well as several others, you would know that I have been advocating for adjustments to Conservation of Energy. I am fine with you comparing power levels between different class masteries because it's necessary for context, but when you say something like this:

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Summary, sorcerer passives makes sorecerers 2x stronger in PvP. Halving this passives would make it 50% pvp effectiveness increase, making it perfectly balanced.

Then unfortunately I have to disagree with you on that. Most Sorc builds will gain between 15-20% WD/SD from Font of Power and restore between ~3000-4600 HP (before Battle Spirit) from Blood Magic, ~500-800 for main resource, and ~350-550 for off resource from Conservation of Energy. If you halve these values, then Sorc would only get ~7.5-10% WD, ~1500-2300 HP, ~250-400 main resource, and ~175-275 off resource from these class masteries. That's too steep of a nerf and would result in these 2 scenarios:

1) Sorcs cannot compete with DK & Warden who can both deal 6k average DPS, and the upcoming WW spec that can easily deal 8k average DPS

2) Sorcs will now have to slot Dark Deal again, which completely kills build diversity

My suggestion ensures that Sorcs can still compete with meta classes and have the option to explore different build paths, while losing enough HPS that it doesn't feel impossible to kill.

I think what you saying is unfair.

DK and WW are reworked classes, 2.0 classes. Everything else is 1.0 classes. You want 1.0 class (sorc) to compete with 2.0 classes. Then when sorc rework comes live, what is gonna happen? Sorc S++++ tier again?

If you halve these values, then Sorc would only get ~7.5-10% WD, ~1500-2300 HP, ~250-400 main resource, and ~175-275 off resource from these class masteries. - comparing to templar and nb passives, this values look perfectly fine.

The solution of this madness may be to buff other class masteries to sorc / warden level, and then during class reworks, nerfing them, so they won't become OP. This is the only scenario in which it is fair to not cut sorc passives in half.

Do you realize that DK, a reworked class, is also given their own class masteries which are also just as strong, if not better in some cases?

Sorry but no, I don’t think Sorc should be nerfed to the point that it can’t compete with reworked classes. I don’t want to spend another 4 months of playing against nothing but DKs. That crap was boring as hell. You keep making it out like Sorc is currently beating everyone else but from my testings against top players on PTS, Sorc is just about competitive with DK and Warden, and somewhat competitive vs an above average WW (no chance vs a top WW). I would rather have a meta where you can choose from 4 OP classes than a meta where only 1-2 classes are played.

You would rather have meta with 4 OP classes, as long as sorcerer is one of them. Now you proved that you are selfish toxic sorc community member. No point in further discussion with you.

Uh what? I played Sorc during subclassing meta and I didn't have too many problems with it until rework DK rolled out and everyone was a DK. You can say whatever you want lol. People who have argued with me know where I stand.

Dracane

VinnyGambini wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Look guys, thx for feedback, but I think you missed a point. My post wasn't about getting exact values, it was about comparing power level, ans pointing overpowered and underpowered passives. Differences are big, no matter how you calculate.

This needs to be evaluated by ZOS.

No, I didn't miss a point. I think you're the one instead lol. If you have read my previous posts in this thread as well as several others, you would know that I have been advocating for adjustments to Conservation of Energy. I am fine with you comparing power levels between different class masteries because it's necessary for context, but when you say something like this:

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Summary, sorcerer passives makes sorecerers 2x stronger in PvP. Halving this passives would make it 50% pvp effectiveness increase, making it perfectly balanced.

Then unfortunately I have to disagree with you on that. Most Sorc builds will gain between 15-20% WD/SD from Font of Power and restore between ~3000-4600 HP (before Battle Spirit) from Blood Magic, ~500-800 for main resource, and ~350-550 for off resource from Conservation of Energy. If you halve these values, then Sorc would only get ~7.5-10% WD, ~1500-2300 HP, ~250-400 main resource, and ~175-275 off resource from these class masteries. That's too steep of a nerf and would result in these 2 scenarios:

1) Sorcs cannot compete with DK & Warden who can both deal 6k average DPS, and the upcoming WW spec that can easily deal 8k average DPS

2) Sorcs will now have to slot Dark Deal again, which completely kills build diversity

My suggestion ensures that Sorcs can still compete with meta classes and have the option to explore different build paths, while losing enough HPS that it doesn't feel impossible to kill.

I think what you saying is unfair.

DK and WW are reworked classes, 2.0 classes. Everything else is 1.0 classes. You want 1.0 class (sorc) to compete with 2.0 classes. Then when sorc rework comes live, what is gonna happen? Sorc S++++ tier again?

If you halve these values, then Sorc would only get ~7.5-10% WD, ~1500-2300 HP, ~250-400 main resource, and ~175-275 off resource from these class masteries. - comparing to templar and nb passives, this values look perfectly fine.

The solution of this madness may be to buff other class masteries to sorc / warden level, and then during class reworks, nerfing them, so they won't become OP. This is the only scenario in which it is fair to not cut sorc passives in half.

Do you realize that DK, a reworked class, is also given their own class masteries which are also just as strong, if not better in some cases?

Sorry but no, I don’t think Sorc should be nerfed to the point that it can’t compete with reworked classes. I don’t want to spend another 4 months of playing against nothing but DKs. That crap was boring as hell. You keep making it out like Sorc is currently beating everyone else but from my testings against top players on PTS, Sorc is just about competitive with DK and Warden, and somewhat competitive vs an above average WW (no chance vs a top WW). I would rather have a meta where you can choose from 4 OP classes than a meta where only 1-2 classes are played.

You would rather have meta with 4 OP classes, as long as sorcerer is one of them. Now you proved that you are selfish toxic sorc community member. No point in further discussion with you.

And that's not very different from you wanting all classes OP as long as Sorc is the only one not strong. Now you proved that you are a member of the Sorc hater community.