Addressing U50 PTS Combat & Ability Concerns

Prionyx · May 11

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Hate to be the bearer of bad news

Then here's some worse news: they do have the data, they just aren't using it for the things that you want them to use it for, or drawing the same conclusions that you are.

I wouldn't be so sure that they do actually have the information.

There has been a ton of evidence over the years to suggest that their visibility into what happens in-game is not nearly as robust as is commonly imagined.

Yeah, like nerfing NB mastery from laughable 7% crit damage to 5% while everyone were saying how bad it is

Prionyx · May 11

xylena wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Yes I would still take the game very seriously as a veteran player

I'll take this even further, the extreme power in the stat sheet makes me take the game less seriously. So many PvP engagements where I don't even need to try to win because I already know that my stat sheet is effectively giving me god mode. Wins feel unearned or even automated. Losses come from being outbuilt on paper, not outplayed in combat, which only reinforces players trying to avoid actually fighting to instead try to cheese the build system.

Prionyx wrote: »

That's a wildest take. Literally 100% games with good balance is balanced around what top players do and that's how things should be

Agree that was a weird take but they still need to balance the floor to something, because casuals and noobs need to be able to jump in and do something other than repeatedly die, especially in the absence of any ladder or rank system. Some players just don't seem to understand why raising the floor above the ceiling is a bad thing (one dimensional cheese spam meta).

I don't get it. Zos could half current DPS and it would still be enough for 100% of content. It would also be way more enjoyable since this way you could actually see mechanics and not just skip 90% of them with damage. ZOS have introduced accessibility class(arcanist), if someone doesn't want to learn to play or have disabilities they can play arcanist with their big toe and still do a lot of damage

Zeeejay · May 11

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hello everyone!

Similar to Nightblade, we’ve seen some feedback that the Sorcerer Class Mastery kit feels underpowered and not competitive with other classes. We’d like to better understand why some of you are feeling this way. In PTS Week 1, Sorcerers were actually doing the most damage out of all classes by quite a large margin; we did reduce the strength to account for that and later reverted some of the nerfs. Now, it’s worth noting that there is a bug with Sphere of Influence where it’s only applying its damage shield to one player instead of two, and it also doesn’t currently work with Daedric Refuge (this should be fixed in the next PTS patch).

Hello,

I saw this note in another discord and wanted to help provide my feedback here as a Sorcerer main, hopefully it is helpful.

Sorcerer's Class Mastery kit feels underwhelming compared to other classes for a few reasons, but I think it is because there are only two passives that feel truly complete & core to the class:

1. Calculated Defense - provides a short-lived shield and weapon/spell damage buff to the group.
2. Font of Power - provides a scaling % of weapon/spell damage based on maximum stat.

These both feel like they strike a chord with core Sorcerer identities: shields, weapon/spell damage buff, and maximum resource stacking. They are basically what will universally be run by any group pure-classed Sorcerer DPS.

Here are the other class mastery passives with my thoughts on each:

Implosion/Static Reverberation - scales higher with lower target health, shock damage, both VERY good. However, this is negatively affected by running permanent summons, a core aspect of the Sorcerer class (for now?). It's a tough balance to walk, because ZOS clearly wants to bring non-summon builds to be competitive with summons builds, but it's exceedingly tough to do so. In group content, Sorcerer DPS would not run this unless there is another pure-classed Sorcerer elsewhere in the group providing Calculated Defense. In Solo content, Sorcerer also likely wouldn't run this over Conservation of Energy or Calculated Defense, for better sustain and healing, or quick firing shields and a weapon/spell damage buff. This puts Static Reverberation in a tough spot where there is essentially one scenario where it's run.

Conservation of Energy - essentially is a heal, magicka and stamina restore all in one. Really good passive for solo activity, but you wouldn't run this outside of that content for the same reasons you wouldn't run Static Reverberation. I actually think this is a decent passive with a targeted niche.

Sphere of Influence - just an unfortunately awkward passive. I can see where it's supposed to be a "here, I protect you/myself" with a nice little sustain bonus, but it's just completely lackluster in group content and in solo content. I think if it provided either a named buff or some kind of offensive bonus, but it's going to be really hard to justify a Sorcerer support over a Dragonknight, Warden, or Arcanist with their strong group bonuses, and this applies to both small group and trial content.

Overall, the class mastery passives are pretty strong on paper, but you can see where they fall behind some of the other classes in power. Font of Power looks incredible on paper and is incredible to play with, Static Reverberation is fun to play with, but hard to justify over Calculated Defense due to the group buff. Conservation of Energy has a good purpose it fulfills. Sphere of Influence just pales in comparison to other support class mastery passives.

I think it's also important to recognize that Sorcerer has a history of being excellent on the trial dummy with performance that is comparatively lackluster in content. Even before subclassing when other classes were in the 125-130k range on the trial dummy, Sorcerer was near 150k, but you still didn't see dungeon and trial groups filled to the brim with Sorcerer DPS. I'm personally really hoping that the Sorcerer rework addresses the problem skills in the kit that contribute to this like Power Overload, because it really is tough to say "Sorcerer isn't as good as it looks" when all you see are insane trial dummy parses.

ZhuJiuyin · 3:06AM

Tannus15 wrote: »

stop using dummy parses as the most important metric for PvE balance. It's a really good metric is identifying where something is too weak, but it's a terrible metric for identifying when something is too strong.

This perfectly illustrates 80% of the game's current balance issues: dummy buffs are out of sync with reality and incorrectly exaggerate the power of certain classes/skills.
The most typical example is Sorc's Major Brutality and Sorcery. In actual combat, a sorceress must rely on sources other than class skills to obtain this buff, but with dummy buffs, a sorceress can obtain it for free and replace the skill slot originally intended for it with other powerful damage skills.

The same applies to Font of Power. Because the dummy buff includes a 100% maintained Horn buff, Font of Power doesn't feel weak. However, if the Horn buff is removed, Font of Power might be slightly weaker than other similar classes Mastery.

Vaqual · 3:39AM

Conservation of Energy going live like this will be incredibly cringe. I hope everyone will feel at least a bit dirty for using it.

Lord_Hev · 3:51AM

Prionyx wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Yes I would still take the game very seriously as a veteran player

I'll take this even further, the extreme power in the stat sheet makes me take the game less seriously. So many PvP engagements where I don't even need to try to win because I already know that my stat sheet is effectively giving me god mode. Wins feel unearned or even automated. Losses come from being outbuilt on paper, not outplayed in combat, which only reinforces players trying to avoid actually fighting to instead try to cheese the build system.

Prionyx wrote: »

That's a wildest take. Literally 100% games with good balance is balanced around what top players do and that's how things should be

Agree that was a weird take but they still need to balance the floor to something, because casuals and noobs need to be able to jump in and do something other than repeatedly die, especially in the absence of any ladder or rank system. Some players just don't seem to understand why raising the floor above the ceiling is a bad thing (one dimensional cheese spam meta).

I don't get it. Zos could half current DPS and it would still be enough for 100% of content. It would also be way more enjoyable since this way you could actually see mechanics and not just skip 90% of them with damage. ZOS have introduced accessibility class(arcanist), if someone doesn't want to learn to play or have disabilities they can play arcanist with their big toe and still do a lot of damage

Hard agree. The obsession with hyper min-max buff specialization and inflated dps is a bad direction for the game. But it feels like this is a minority view.

AvidNecro · 4:44AM

@ZOS_GinaBruno be so for real… Want to know how I know you don’t play necromancer? Necromancer PTS Patch Notes that need to be talked about...
https://youtube.com/live/F6kf61jtdzc?feature=share

nightbringer1993 · 8:51AM

AvidNecro wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno be so for real… Want to know how I know you don’t play necromancer? Necromancer PTS Patch Notes that need to be talked about...
https://youtube.com/live/F6kf61jtdzc?feature=share

I completly agree with you

And because of the way the necromancer is being treated, I feel like I am being heavily mistreated.

I cancelled my sub because I am tired of paying to get nerfed, and I don't want to play other classes.

The game is too depressive these days, and I am better off playing other games, because I want to play to have fun, and there is no fun is being kicked out or destroyed by other classes because I am using the necromancer class.

xylena · 10:21AM

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

There has been a ton of evidence over the years to suggest that their visibility into what happens in-game is not nearly as robust as is commonly imagined.

Players usually understand metagaming better, but to say that players have more data than the devs do, in the era of "data-driven" everything everywhere, is completely nuts.

Devs ignore many fan favorite "simple solutions" precisely because they have more data than we players do, and can see the game from perspectives that we can't see (or understand).

Firstmep · 10:21AM

I really would love to know why heart of flame is getting buffed next patch. Dk is by far the most played class in pvp rn, and a lot of these masteries are not going to help other classes to bridge the gap.

nightbringer1993 wrote: »

AvidNecro wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno be so for real… Want to know how I know you don’t play necromancer? Necromancer PTS Patch Notes that need to be talked about...
https://youtube.com/live/F6kf61jtdzc?feature=share

I completly agree with you

And because of the way the necromancer is being treated, I feel like I am being heavily mistreated.

I cancelled my sub because I am tired of paying to get nerfed, and I don't want to play other classes.

The game is too depressive these days, and I am better off playing other games, because I want to play to have fun, and there is no fun is being kicked out or destroyed by other classes because I am using the necromancer class.

I'll say it again, you can already use corpseburster like that if you target the corpses blastbones and venom skull leaves, and the damage is nowhere insane or unfair.
So their reasoning already makes no sense.

SneaK · 3:51PM

Just want to say pure NB is complete dumpster in Cyro against the DK meta, it’ll be the same against a WW meta if they have 40k+ HP. The NB masteries don’t need to be affected by battle spirit at all. There is nothing unique about them at this point. If you truly believe you’re going to fine tune as you go, start big, not small. You aren’t even giving incentive to play pure NB, therefore next to no one will give you any data points on it cause we’ll all have to subclass anyway. You’re going the wrong direction on many of these masteries.
@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Gilliam