Why destroy subclassing?

duagloth · May 11

Subclassing was not asked for, spellcrafting was. Class mastery is just a cover for finally fixing stale outdated classes.

CatalinaWineMixer2 · May 11

Subclassing needs to be removed. They never should have done it in the first place. Everyone who purchased the game did so with the complete understanding its a Class based game. The first thing you do when you log in is choose your Class. Its driven thousands of people away from this game. Entire Guilds have gone down, they are playing Arc Raiders, Where Winds Meet and Black Desert now. And a lot of them are using Eso to bring more players away from here to get them there. People are tired of waiting YEARS to have their characters restored. It is a broken cherry picking system. It can not and will not ever be balanced.

Pure Classes should be the leader on everything, Tank, Healer and Dps. A diluted blender build should not be able to carry over every buff and passive from the original classes. Or outperform them. It should be impossible to put every buff on yourself without multiple supports. The Oakensoul Ring being the sole exception. Subclassing should not have access to Class Mastery or Class Sets. Any new Class they would introduce in the future will be cherry picked and exploited by Subclassing. Just like they are doing now with the Dragonknight.

It is a no rules based exploit. If it gets nerfed and I hope it does, Ill remind everyone who has been telling the majority of the population to keep hurrying up and waiting (years) for Class Mastery and chatacter refreshes, YOU CAN STILL PLAY THAT WAY. YOU can still Subclass, the rest of us are getting our characters back. And btw they need to restored to the leaderboards because that's where they were forcefully removed from.

If it weren't for Subclassing, we wouldn't need character refreshes and Class Mastery Passives. The time and money they spent on this broken system and continue to waste on it could have been put into new zones and all kinds of brand new content. The longer it goes on, the worse its going to get. Ask any Necro how fair Subclassing has been and will continue to be. And a host of other things.

katanagirl1 · May 11

In a nutshell, subclassing made it something like 50% better than the best pure class for certain builds. So they are just nerfing subclassing slightly and buffing pure classes to try to achieve something close to equality.

Is that not fair? Those of us with pure classes builds that were good because obsolete overnight. Subclassed builds will not be made obsolete like that, but less strong than they were originally.

wolfie1.0. · May 11

Ardriel wrote: »

With the upcoming changes in Update 50, pure classes—that is, some classes, not all—will be buffed so significantly with class mastery that subclassing will no longer be competitive.
This will severely limit flexibility and render the “play however you want” motto pure cynicism.
Subclassing has been a great feature: you can play practically any class effectively and competitively.
Of course, I understand the complaints of players who want to preserve their class identity. Pure classing was too weak to be competitive and needed buffs.
But now some pure classes are being over-buffed, and subclassing is practically being nerfed (Velothi amulet, tide born set, etc.).
What’s the point of subclassing anymore? What’s the benefit if I have to invest twice the number of skill points to use subclassing? That means significantly more time spent farming those skill points for new toons. And for what?

Why can’t you take advantage of opportunities? Why not finally ensure balance? Please don’t keep destroying everything positive you’ve created!
The options for playing must remain diverse. Every playstyle, whether subclassing or pure classing, must have the same potential.

But the way things look on the PTS, only a few classes (Warden, Necro, and maybe Nightblade,) will be meta.
This means players will once again be significantly restricted and forced to play a specific class with a specific build.
That’s a real shame. Please rework the individual class buffs appropriately. Please ensure balance.
Why are you going to make subclassing obsolete? It was a such great feature.

I know it’s extremely difficult to satisfy all players...
But that’s your job. If you get it right, it will pay off. Satisfied players are happy to pay—and even spend a little extra—in the Crown Store.
Frustrated players cancel their ESO+ subscription and look for another game.

If your subclassing build depended on gear sets to work then it wasnt a subclassing issue it was a gear imbalance.

Oblivion_Protocol · May 11

Radiate77 wrote: »

People generally dislike a specific synergy possible with Subclassing in PvP, and another specific synergy in PvE… not the system itself.

It’s like amputating your arm for a papercut.

Your analogy is incomplete. “It’s like amputating your arm for a paper cut received from a piece of paper that had been dipped in a deadly nerve toxin after thousands of people told you not to touch the paper. Now the wound has gone gangrenous, the rot has spread to the elbow, and we need to operated drastically to save the patient.”

I don’t know about PVE, but from the moment subclassing was announced, everyone and their mother who knew anything about PVP saw the Animal Companion/Assassination/Storm Calling builds coming. We all made jokes about getting slapped with shalks and spec bow while your assailant Streaks away untouched.

Yes, people dislike those synergies…and the system that enables them. We warned people that this would happen, but got told “You’re overreacting. There will be so much build variety! The possibilities are endless! Truly play your way!” Except that fun Necro/DK/Sorc dot build you were dreaming of gets you barred from a lot of PVE groups and streamrolled in Cyro and BGs….just like we said it would.

Giving everyone access to everything and not expecting the majority of the players to just choose the best stuff available was shortsighted at best and at worst…I can’t even say the word.

Sarthendria · May 11

I dont think they are destroying subclassing? Infact I dont think the class masteries are as powerful as they could be.
I say this as someone who likes the idea of subclassing. I love building themed characters and stuff, and subclassing helps me make these characters. But its not been that healthy for the game at all, and class masteries seem like an...ok bandaid for the meantime, while they rework the classes. Not the best by any means though.
I dont think Subclassing will be removed. I think that pandora's box has been opened and there isnt any closing it. But I do think pureclassing should be stronger and have way more synergy then subclassing, and hopefully the class masteries when combined with the class reworks cause that to happen.

Tallon_IV · May 11

CatalinaWineMixer2 wrote: »

If it weren't for Subclassing, we wouldn't need character refreshes and Class Mastery Passives. The time and money they spent on this broken system and continue to waste on it could have been put into new zones and all kinds of brand new content. The longer it goes on, the worse its going to get. Ask any Necro how fair Subclassing has been and will continue to be. And a host of other things.

I don't like subclassing either, but the combat team doesn't work on zone content really outside of maybe mobs and stuff. We wouldn't need class masteries, but we would definitely still need refreshes on some classes.

AScarlato · May 11

duagloth wrote: »

Subclassing was not asked for, spellcrafting was. Class mastery is just a cover for finally fixing stale outdated classes.

That isn't true. This has been asked for over the years because people felt the spirit of Elder Scrolls was to mix and match whatever skills you want to on your characters. Some have argued it hasn't gone far enough in that regards.

I'm happy for the pure class buffs as someone who has a mix of subclassed and pure classes. The subclassed characters can optimize for their roles better than my pure classes since they can pick all the best passives, whereas my pure classes have less useful passives as a whole for their roles. I hope this brings them up to par a bit more.

SolarRune · May 11

As a healer/tank main, I don't want to go back to the bad old days of having to be a particular class, because the amount of useful sets is woeful for supports. The support group of players have actually had some freedom in builds because of subclassing over the last year, and its been really refreshing and kept me in the game. It has made tanking more accessible to people (something often asked for) and healers hps has remained comparable to pureclass.

For me the class mastery passives should be the levers to equalise between pureclass and subclass. I don't think they should be temporary. And there shouldn't be unique group buffs through them (either unique as a buff or unique by proxy of having no other way to provide that to the group) otherwise you just drive selection in another, equally close minded way. In my opinion individual based buffs is where class mastery passives should be doing their thing, we have unused sets and scribing that can be used for group buffs for things dev want to bring in, and it could drive more viable build variety.

All content is already completable on pureclass or subclass - the challenge is finding a group where you can run as you like, it is the player base that has made this issue by metachasing when most people don't need that level of optimisation (PvP is slightly different here because you need to keep up with the pack). Where we need to get to is it doesn't matter if you are pure or sub, there are huge groups that adore subclassing and anything other than gunning for equally viabity will drive some group of players away - anyone hoping for the best for the game should not be trying to actively alienate any group of players.

nightbringer1993 · May 11

Subclassing is the worst thing that happened to the game, people wanted class balance and they gave us a “lazy” way of balancing which ended up making things worst.

Now with the class masteries and refreshes, it feels like class balance will be even worst again. Just look at that DK patch that just happened! It made me so sick that I completely quit PvP and right now I don’t even play anymore and am about to unsubscribe because my main class is necromancer is refreshed last and this destroyed class that should have been refreshed this year is about to be made worst.

Right now they are trying to fix their biggest mistake they have ever made. But what is done is done. Classes are about to become even more imbalanced and those who are playing Necro like me have been asking for a refresh for years are about to have a more depressing time. And those Necro class masteries are not going to fix the class.

Ardriel · May 11

I still think subclassing was a good idea. At first, I was sceptical and actually against it. But now I’m really enjoying it. Dps is awesome and supporter roles are really nice to play with the benefits of subclassing. I don’t quite understand the players’ objections to subclassing:
The main argument seems to be that builds with subclassing are overpowered. In other words, the damage is too high. But if you look at the pts and see how insane dps some pure-class builds parse… I mean, the 200k mark has been broken. That’s more damage than ever before.
So, less damage in the game is definitely not going to happen.

Another argument is that there are only a few subclassing variations and everyone uses the boring meta beam build.
But the same thing will happen with pure classing. There will be few meta builds/classes and everyone will play these.

And why are classes so important anyway? What’s the point of them? It’s an artificially created concept. In real life, nobody is born a car mechanic, doctor, or teacher. You can choose a profession, learn it well, but later change direction and retrain if you want to. If you want to compare classes to professions in real life that is… Of course, it’s a game and not real life. Just a comparison.

I get the point about class identity when it comes from role-players. But I don’t really understand it when some progress players are using that argument. Why would they care about class identity? They play the best build, whether it involves subclassing or not. I think they’re just using that argument because they want that this op class mastery comes with update 50 because it means even more damage which makes content easier. What hypocrisy.. Furthermore, I believe that many elite players are concerned about their elite status, which hasn’t been as secure since subclassing was introduced. With subclassing, many so-called casual players can now deal good damage and thus gain access to veteran raid content. These players don’t want that. They want elite content to remain limited to a selected few. Well, that’s definitely not ZOS’s policy. Accessibility for all players is more in line with their philosophy.

There have been countless requests from players to finally introduce class change tokens. So identity can’t be that important after all...
They claim that class change isn't technically possible. But since subclassing was technically possible, I don’t buy that…

I'm afraid that if subclassing will get nerfed, these builds might end up suffering the same sad fate as Oakensoal/HA builds: players who use them will be labelled as bad players and excluded from veteran content. That would be a real shame for such a great feature.

People keep saying: you can still use subclassing. But why would I? If I want to stay competitive and keep up with my raid groups, I have to play the meta pure class. So why should I invest twice as many skill points when there’s no reward for it?

It wouldn’t be a problem for me to play any class as a pure class. I’ve levelled up characters of all classes to level 50 with all relevant skills.
But what really bothers me is the fact that, once again, it’s not balanced. Some classes fare much worse with Class Mastery than others.

It was also implied that maybe I’m just not a good enough player, and that’s why I don’t want to play a pure class—because the subclassing beam meta build is much easier.
That’s just another one of those typical go-to arguments people use when they can’t think of anything else to say.
Just because I don’t use a signature with all my achievements listed, doesn’t mean I don’t have any.
I’m certainly not a top-tier elite player, but my dps it’s definitely enough for my raid groups and hm raid content and I’ve always been in the top 3 in the logs. Even long before subclassing.

For me, it’s just a matter of principle. I’m tired of these constant balance issues, buffs, and nerfs. It’s been going on like this for years. Classes, sets, and skills get buffed first, then nerfed again a few patches later. As soon as something is becoming fun they take it away. Rebuilding, levelling up a new character, farming everything all over again… I’ve been dealing with this nonsense for over 8 years now.

It won’t be different with pure class builds and class mastery. You’ll get used to the new build, it’ll be fun and then after a few updates later the nerf hammer hits.

Well, at some point, you just kind of burn out. You just don't feel like it anymore. And I'm not the only one. I know a lot of people who quit the game a long time ago for exactly those reasons.

I doubt the devs will ever change this approach. I just wonder what the reason might be. Most likely, ZOS expects to profit from it in one way or another. Otherwise, they wouldn't stick with it.
In any case, it's just a shame.

moderatelyfatman · May 11

@Ardriel

Just giving my 2 cents here:

Before Subclassing we had one meta per class and the main issue was balancing the classes.
After subclassing we have the same meta per class. Balancing was no longer a problem for ZOS but, given the massive discrepancy between the effectiveness of different skill lines, playing anything but the meta was massive handicap.

You might argue that the arcanist beam meta had been in place for the previous two years. but other classes still had a place. I could hop on my magplar and work very hard to try to keep up with the arcanist using Jabs, but then my templar could shine in the parts of the trials where the execute phase was important (e.g. vSE). Now the arcanist has access to the same skill and there is no point bringing along my templar unless they green beam. Likewise, most parties at least had a DK Zenkosh and an EC Cro.

In the past the classes had both strengths and weakness that affected the build and playstyle. ZOS never quite got the balance right but before subclassing you could have some interesting fights between the DK and Magsorc where the winner would be the one who was free to play their natural combat style. Nightblades always hit hard and were deadly from stealth but were killable when exposed. Now everyone can Streak or Cloak or be tanky while doing damage.

This is very uninteresting to long term players who have mostly moved on. I think ZOS realises that the Night Market is going to be more of a sugar rush than anything else and will need to offer something more to keep these long term players who have returned.

I do agree that a better solution would to be balance the remaining skill lines so we have 5-6 metas based around different playstyles, but I do not think those currently in charge of this have a deep enough understanding of the game achieve this aim.

Fischblut · May 11

For me personally, subclassing was a breath of fresh air

It allowed my main character to remain nightblade, but also become arcanist and 3rd class (depending on my mood and what I need in content). I returned from overland to dungeons and started doing veteran trials. I started healing seriously and now have few healers with different class combos.

If subclassing is nerfed/my fun options are removed, I will have to go back to questing :'(

Dragonknight rework messed up some subclassing combos for me. I dread the rework of more classes in future cause of it

I have two arcanist characters, but I want to play on my main character - and before subclassing, she was just a nightblade who struggles with resources in combat, because as pure class she has no access to amazing Fatecarver ability.

Vulkunne · May 11

Fischblut wrote: »

For me personally, subclassing was a breath of fresh air
It allowed my main character to remain nightblade, but also become arcanist and 3rd class (depending on my mood and what I need in content). I returned from overland to dungeons and started doing veteran trials. I started healing seriously and now have few healers with different class combos.

If subclassing is nerfed/my fun options are removed, I will have to go back to questing :'(

Dragonknight rework messed up some subclassing combos for me. I dread the rework of more classes in future cause of it

I have two arcanist characters, but I want to play on my main character - and before subclassing, she was just a nightblade who struggles with resources in combat, because as pure class she has no access to amazing Fatecarver ability.

Completely agree. I don't see them fixing anything thru scribing. It seems like a cop-out to me that I can't use class to get what I need. Oh well, I know I'll be using subclassing for the forseeable.

Lord_Hev · May 11

Subclassing ruined the game for me, it's only because of my pathological commitment and love for eso that I remain and suffered through it choosing to only play my pure classes against all scrutiny. Normally I'd be open to compromise, but the damage was so severe I'd hope that the devs completely remove subclassing via heavy disincentivization, but I doubt it will come to that.

AScarlato · May 11

Ardriel wrote: »

I get the point about class identity when it comes from role-players.

I don't. I'm an active Roleplayer and have used subclassing to better RP some characters with diverse interest.

If I can double-major in real life, why can't I learn more than one thing in Tamriel?

The orders have no real discernable lore or headquarters that requires extensive training for many years at the exclusion of others, so I don't see any RP reason a character couldn't use any combination of skills they decided to pursue in their training/studies.

BXR_Lonestar · May 11

Easy. Because subclassing was a HUGE mistake in the way that they implemented it. And because they don't want to nerf subclassing to the point where it is pointless, they'll just buff the alternative to the point where it is pointless. Which I'm all for buffs, but when you are buffing against something that is broken, you are going to end up with a game that is even MORE broken, which has always been my major concern. It seems like balance at this point is too far down the list of priorities to matter.

tomofhyrule · May 11

Subclassing was a good idea in theory, but horrible in practice.

Like Hybridization, it was brought out "to increase the number of options!" but in reality it only crystallized everything down to the "right" build and every other build was "wrong." Testers on PTS warned them of this, they offerred solutions that would have allowed players to use Subclassing without restrictions for their RP but to still have structure in endgame, and all of that was disregarded. And as a result, things went exactly the way the endgamers said it would.

Is it good for RPers? Yes, very. Heck, it could be even better by removing the few restrictions it has. But was that worth dropping a nuke on the endgame population? Especially when it could have allowed them to coexist? Eh... no.

ESO is not a single player game. As much as a lot of people wish it were, it isn't. And as such, there have to be restrictions to balance things in a competitive sense. If that doesn't fit in your style of game logic... then maybe a game that has multiplayer is not the right game for you.

It's also interesting to note that Subclassing was the closest we've seen the team get to pushing the panic button, which really puts holes in the "but but but it brought me back so obviously it's a good thing!" theory. Subclassing leaked in March of 2025, was officially revealed in April, and went on PTS, and then released in June. By September, we already had an official "how is Subclassing and basegame Scribing changing your playstyle?" thread... which is not something we've ever had before. No other feature got what was essentially a post-mortem within three months of release... and people don't do post-mortems on things that went well. And then we got a "how do you feel about Classes?" survey (which notably stressed it wanted thoughts in the absense of Subclassing), which all felt like they wanted to do a decent reset there. And then the Refreshes were announced - two full years of no new combat features while they rebalanced Classes one by one, notably to make it harder to build an übercharacter with all of the damage passives at once.
The evidence shows that Subclassing was not a smashing success. To put it mildly.

I realize there are a lot of TES fans who celebrate a more open skillset, but they are not considering how incredibly unhealthy that is for the endgame playerbase. That is just one of the things that needs to be adapted since it is fundamentally a different game that necessitates different mechanics, it's not a failing. But it's not like the loremasters aren't doing anything about it - I roll my eyes every time people go on about how "lore inappropriate the Classes are!" despite there literally being lorebooks to talk about why 2E Tamriel doesn't have the same magic system as 3E Tamriel and several lorebooks about how each ESO Class powers are generated, including one which relates the Class system to the idea that magic is currently in flux in the current time period since there was no standardization yet. It does feel like a lot of the "lore-focused" players are ignoring a lot of lore to argue that ESO's system is not canon.

But the new Mastery thing is also not forcing anyone to play pureclass if they don't want to. After all, we were told over the past year that "you don't have to Subclass! It's okay not to play the meta!" Even if pureclass builds were in the garbage comparatively, a lot of Subclass enjoyers thought that was acceptable and appropriate for those purebuilds to be good for "nothing but picking flowers."
So now the tables have turned. I find it interesting to see that now it's a problem if some builds are left behind... when people thought that was acceptable last year.

Gabriel_H · May 11

Ardriel wrote: »

With the upcoming changes in Update 50, pure classes—that is, some classes, not all—will be buffed so significantly with class mastery that subclassing will no longer be competitive.

On what are you basing that premise? A subclassed arcanist is still top of the dps pile, plus no pure tank or healer has the necessary buffs required by end-game groups (they can do their job just fine, but min/maxers and content creators must have their few seconds quicker runs).

Trier_Sero · May 11

Good riddance!

Kartalin · May 11

Silaf wrote: »

"Play how you want" and all dps in the trial must look the same as an arcanist variant.... So boring.
Fot healer and tanks subclassing is working a little better but overall a bad design choiche made to sell the DLC.

SolarRune wrote: »

Forcing any group comp is wrong - by giving each class a unique buff you are swinging things entirely the other way and we end up with leads tring to cover all classes for the buffs, and as a player you get turned away because you're the wrong class..

I believe you are conflating player behavior with developer intent. The devs do not enforce any particular group comp or dps class/subclass requirement. A better argument would be: why can I only do this much dps on my spec but another class/subclass combo with the same gear can do 20% more with a way easier rotation? Unfortunately I don't believe that is something we will ever get an answer on. Plus I imagine it is incredibly difficult to actually achieve that balance at this point in the game's life.

5% difference is not a huge deal, 20% is massive. I don't know the actual discrepancies we're dealing with here so I'm just using that as an example.

Iriidius · May 11

When subclassing was released subclassers claimed it was great because it increased diversity making ESO more like mainseries as you werent restricted to 1 class anymore (using spells of only 1 class isnt more restrictive than using only 1 spell in Oblivion).
And they told players worried that pure classes couldnt compete anymore that it doesnt matter and they could still play their totally not viable pure class builds as competition is toxic and they will never be the best anyway or something like this .
And elitists said subclassing was catering to casuals.
Now that pure classes get made useable again subclassers complain subclassing is taken away despite subclassing not getting taken away because subclassing won‘t give them a decisive advantage anymore. Balance is only an issue if it doesnt favor them.
Only a few combos of subclass skill lines are meta and it isnt even sure they will all be worse than reworked pure classes. Other subclasses are already not competitive and rarely used so adding pure classes back to meta wont change that.
Keeping some random combinations of classes skilllines meta that were added for diversity a few months ago against the will of half the playerbase isnt more important than keeping the classes everyone played since release of the game for over 10 years viable.
You keep the option of subclassing which is more subclassing than the game was designed for.

Orbital78 · May 11

The only reason you wouldn't be able to use subclassing just as well, if is you are trying to min/max/max. IMO subclassing should be more for filling in gaps, roleplay, and fun. Not getting the most broken builds that require everyone to spec that way almost.

HMG_Spaun · 10:23AM

Ardriel wrote: »

But the way things look on the PTS, only a few classes (Warden, Necro, and maybe Nightblade,) will be meta.
This means players will once again be significantly restricted and forced to play a specific class with a specific build.
That’s a real shame. Please rework the individual class buffs appropriately. Please ensure balance.
Why are you going to make subclassing obsolete? It was a such great feature.

This right here. You speak about meta classes and being forced into playing a specific way. No one is forcing you to do anything. Matter in fact, I’d prefer you stick with whatever you would like to play. Away from me and my necro. Do you know how much time and practice it took to be able to outperform an Arcanist as a Necromancer in content? Then they gutted Stalking blastbones and gave us Corpseburster. But I still had fun because I could be competitive still with my favorite class. No one is making anything obsolete. Play what you want. But, to call Necromancer meta because it finally got SOME attention after years of nerfs is heinous. Please, enjoy you subclassing while I can enjoy being a necro for the first time in a while.

xylena · 12:24PM

Wild guess: their data said that a majority of players really hated subclassing.

It could've been really good if there were guardrails against degeneracy. It didn't need to also swap out passives. It didn't need to allow for tri-classing. What a wasted chance.

CatalinaWineMixer2 · 7:11PM

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Subclassing ruined the game for me, it's only because of my pathological commitment and love for eso that I remain and suffered through it choosing to only play my pure classes against all scrutiny. Normally I'd be open to compromise, but the damage was so severe I'd hope that the devs completely remove subclassing via heavy disincentivization, but I doubt it will come to that.

Yes exactly. Its a daily thing, 4 more of our 10 year vets emptied their craft bags today and hung it up. I can barely stand to keep trying to hold what's left of our Guilds and Groups together anymore. I am Beamed and Assassination'd out. These underwhelming Class Master Passives are not enough to stop the cherry picking exploitation that keeps going unchecked with Subclass. It needs to go! We bought this game to play our characters! If 1/3 or 2/3 of my Warden are not Warden Skill lines, ITS NOT A WARDEN! We paid to be able to use these Classes and the Class system has been a part of the game since its beginning. Everyone knew this when they bought the game. I dont even want to dps anymore because its NOT my Warden out there. It was taken from the Leaderboards and thrown into a trash compactor.

SkaiFaith · 7:35PM

Since 100% subclassing won't ever get removed from the game, what is the fantastical logic behind: a system that requires double the Skill Points and triple the XP to Master (if you count from starting brand new) should make you less powerful than what you "get by default"?

Call me blind but I can't see the logic, for the love of Mara.

TX12001rwb17_ESO · 9:25PM

Well pure classes should be stronger than Sub Classes

Remember that saying, I fear not the man who has practiced 1000 different kicks, I fear the man who practiced the same kick 1000 times, in this instance swap "Kicks" for "Classes" a Master should be deadlier than a Jack of all trades because if you subclass that is the path you choose, to not be a master of anything.